Unlocking the Power of Data with VenCap’s David Clark | E1906

28:05Have you seen a manager sell their position and then subsequently the company go to zero or crash and burn? In other words, they made like the great trade. This thing became FTX and they sold FTX, not to pick on Sam Bankman-Fried, now serving in a correctional facility. But if you were in FTX and it went to$20 billion,$10 billion, whatever it was at, and you were a seed investor at$25 million or$10 million and you sold your entire position, my Lord, you might look like a genius right now. Have you seen that happen where somebody sold and it went to zero or something similar to zero? Not in private companies.

28:39What we have seen, though, is companies that have gone public. either via traditional IPO route or more recently via a SPAC deal, where the VCs have been able to get liquidity shortly after lockups had expired. And 24 months later, that company is in a very different place. You look at the market caps of some of those companies that went public in the 19, 20, 21 vintage, and they're pretty low. And so that tends to be more of what we've seen rather than taking early liquidity in a private company and then that company going to zero. Right now, startups have to do more with less. We all know that.

29:21And that means increasing your product velocity while maintaining or even lowering your costs. Now, don't forget, product velocity is how startups beat incumbents. So here's the great news. AI is going to help you do that. So let me tell you about Wizard. It's spelled U-I-Z-A-R-D. It's an AI powered suite of UI and UX design tools. With Wizard, you can generate your app or web designs from simple text prompts. You can then iterate on these designs with an AI assistant, and then you hand off your completed designs as React or CSS code. Wizard's text to UI mockup tool is called Auto Designer, and it's really cool.

29:59If you're watching, you can see it on the screen right now. Here's the brass tacks. Wizard is going to help you go from idea to mockup in minutes. So if you're creating a product from scratch, this is going to save you so much time. Start building products today faster with 25 % off WizardPro at wizard.io slash twist. That's U-I-Z-A-R-D dot I-O slash twist for 25 % off. Stop wasting time and start shipping faster. Yeah, the one I can remember was WeWork. My understanding was that Benchmark cleared their position or a very large portion of it in WeWork before it went public. you know uh maybe in the bill you know many billions of dollar range and uh they might have been the only winners in that aside from adam newman getting a buyout miraculously as well which is crazy it's interesting as we're having this conversation i've come to the conclusion balancing all these factors that if you're a seed fund and you sell 10 once or twice or three times you'll never be in a position to explain to lps or yourself and sleep at night that you sold too much in a winner and you will have locked up enough of the win after you've sold 10 to 30 percent 10 percent two or three times that you'll feel you know pretty great if the thing does become like i don't know i don't pick on any companies but buzzfeed i still always trading for nothing like less than their cash i don't know you remember those days from the dot-com era when companies were worth less than the cash they had in their bank account absolutely crazy moment in time so i'm accustomed to that but this time around in the cycle i'm going to i'm already started this discipline inside my firm, which is we're tracking all the secondary offers that are coming into us.

31:35People are like, hey, we have a name. We have a buyer. I'm like, tell me the number. And they're like, can you get on the phone? I'm like, I'm too busy getting on the phone. Just tell me the number if you want to have a relationship with our firm. You must get some of this, right? I don't know if they're shady, but there's just weird underbelly of private company sales going on and hustlers try to buy a position, sell a position, whatever. We see the same on LP stakes. Oh, really? Yeah, we do get people contacting us saying, what would be your pricing on an LP stake in this particular fund? And sometimes they have a deal there that they actually are able to talk to people about.

32:15And sometimes they're perhaps looking for a bid in order to then go back to potential sellers and say, I've got a buyer who'll do this at X pennies on the dollar. Oh, that's gnarly. Yeah. Yeah. So they're working both sides of the marketplace. Hey, I hear Jason mentioned his first fund is 4.95X. Would you have an interest in taking a strip? And then they come to me, oh, we might have somebody, oh, that's a really interesting approach. Yeah. I started during this last two years as things were, how do I say it? Chaotic. I did have a lot of folks pitching me on these strips or getting me liquidity.

32:52I said, well, I personally don't need liquidity. I'm a worker, I've done okay for myself. So I'm heads down, but for shits and giggles, yeah, tell me what this is. And they're like, well, we can get you the GP a little bit of money. So I want to ask you a question, might be uncomfortable or maybe uncouth in some ways. When you look at GPs and they start to make money and money changes everything, especially for humans, how does that affect their psychology? And how do you parse that? Somebody hits a home run and they hit another home run and they're a GP, how do you know they're going to stay in the game and be aggressive?

33:27And how do you assess that? And is that an actual issue with fund managers over the 30 years you've been watching it? In other words, retirement, work ethic, desire, hunger, et cetera. Yeah. I don't know if you remember a firm called Crosspoint. Yeah, sure. So they invested in... Again, we're going back to the late 90s here. They invested in brocade they invested in uh ariba they you know these guys were were up there with the sequoias and the kleiners in terms of the the performance that they that they were able to generate and in 2001 2002 they just said look we're done we've made enough money we're not interested in doing this anymore and i think one of the partners went and bought a motor racing team and actually having that honesty to say to their lps you know we're done we're not you know we've made enough money where that's unfinished, I think is quite refreshing.

34:20And it is a challenge when you're looking at GPs that have been successful individually. There are certain GPs that you know are going to do this until the day that they die. It doesn't matter how much money Vinod Kozler makes on his investments. They're going to drag him out of the building. He will be investing in companies and working with founders until the day he can't. And I think there are a number of people within the venture industry that are like that. And I think they're doing it more because it's a passion. And the money is just a way of keeping score. They're super competitive. They want to win.

34:59They want their companies to win. They want to beat the guy down the street. And they'll keep doing this until they're not able to. And so I do think it's important that you do have a relationship with your GPs. so you get a better sense of what they're doing it for. But I also think as organizations, it's really important to continue to bring new blood into the partner group. And one of the things we've seen with good firms that have fallen away, it's happened because they haven't handled the succession properly. Because you get senior people who are still taking the bulk of the economics, their name might be on the door, but they're no longer doing the work.

35:43And they're not getting out of the way to allow that next generation to come through and to put their footprint on something. So if you look at the very best multi-generational firms, they've done a really good job in handling that succession and keeping the senior partners involved, but doing it in a way where it's much more in a mentoring capacity rather than still being the dealmaker in that organization. So I think that's something that's really important for us to see. We want to see that new blood continuing to churn. And if we don't, it's a red flag. And Kleiner Perkins comes to mind as taking a couple of, I'm going to be generous, but taking a couple of swings at bat to do their transition.

36:26And it seems like they got it right with Mamoun, Ilya. They got some great folks over there now running some pretty good investments. But that one comes to mind. And then Sequoia getting it right. Rulof and Alfred after Doug and Moritz after Don Valentine. And they seem to have, having watched that one happen before my eyes, because Roloff was my friend who, you know, I remember his first year there when he wrote the deal member for YouTube and just watching Moritz and Doug, you know, sort of mentoring him and Alfred Lynn, you know, and they just learned the craft of it. But I was there recently and Doug was there, you know, and I was there.

37:04I was at the San Francisco office a year ago and Moritz was there. So, you know, this idea that people have transitioned, they seem to take a decade to transition at Sequoia, whereas in other firms, maybe they're just collecting these ginormous fees. So, you know, I guess is another interesting topic for us, the allure of more fees. And how do you think about that? one of the challenges I have is people don't give me straight feedback. You know, when you're talking to an LP, they don't tell you what they don't like about your strategy or fund. So you and I have, luckily, you know, I get to have you, you know, in my circle here.

37:43And I ask you, hey, candidly, tell me what, you know, really bang on this here. I want to be better at my game. Tell me where I suck. And, you know, people were like, Hey, you know, in this market, should you get 25 % carry with a ratchet up to 30? you know that's a blocker for some people and i was like oh yeah i never considered that and then i asked five people i'm like two of them out of the five were like yeah that's our blocker i'm like why didn't you tell me like nobody's telling me the truth here tell me the truth you know and so so how do you think about fees how do you think about carry structure because now i had i also had another person who said don't lower your fees don't lower your carry because it's a sign of how good you are that you can actually close funds with 25 carry and then ratcheting it up to 30 which I've now disclosed publicly here was my carry structure which I thought was fair given the seed round and my performance but it is a blocker for some people so you just basically it's a non-starter that they would participate with you.

38:36How do you think about fees? How do you think about carry? Two arguments I've heard. Keep your carry structure high. It's a signal that you're a quality hotel that you have$1 ,000 a night room and you don't discount it or listening to the market. Yeah, so I would say pretty much all of the managers we back are at that premium carry level. And they deserve it because of their performance. The way that we look at it ultimately is, what are the net returns back to us? And if the net returns back to us stack up, then we're happy to pay the fees and the carry that you need to pay in order to access that performance.

39:13So I think you can get very fixated on paying premium carry for the wrong reasons. the challenge with premium carry is when it doesn't come with strong performance. So my preference would be to see a manager that said, we're starting at a 20 % carry. It goes to 25 % when we return this. It goes to 30 % when we return that. Have your full catch-up. But that means that interests are then aligned. If you do well, I do well. If I do well, you do well. I'm happy with that. The reality is for the very best managers out there, they don't need to offer those terms to investors. So they're not going to do it.

39:54Of the terrific 12, how many are premium carry? Ballpark. I would say all of them. There you go. So you like to stay in luxury hotels, the price is the price, and you get the experience to pay for. The bigger thing for me though is less around the fees and carry. It's more about fund size. And I think one of the challenges we've seeing with the cohort of managers that we do back is like everybody else in the industry, they have scaled their fund sizes over the last two or three cycles. And now you start to... The challenge for us, it goes back to the equation we were talking about earlier, exit size versus ownership percentage versus fund size in order to get those fund returners.

40:35And so one of the things I'm hopeful for, and we are starting to see it a little bit, We've got one or two managers that are coming back with new funds in the market today, and they are right-sizing their fund sizes to some extent. And so I would be... For me, it's less capital is better than more capital. We've seen that with companies, the whole issue around what Southbank was doing. I grew up in the venture industry in the late 90s, where a lot of funds increased their assets under management pretty drastically, and it didn't work out. And so my default position is in venture, less capital is better than more capital.

41:12You need to have enough. You need to be able to do the math we were talking about, 30 shots on goal, be able to lead those A rounds. So there is a minimum size that works. But I also think there is a concern that if you get too big, you just become a capital allocator rather than a venture investor. and it goes back to what are the sort of returns your LPs are looking for. If you're then getting the big checks from the sovereign wealth funds, then they're probably happy with that median venture return. We need to do better than that. Not all LPs are looking for the same thing. Some would like to get the average because the average is better than other averages and they want access to this.

41:56And average, like as we started our conversation, average with the chance of alpha is a great concept for them. And you did see that with Andresen Horowitz go into 10 billion plus under management, 20 billion assets under management. At least that was the perception here in the Valley. You know how that's turned out. I don't have their fund returns and except maybe for the press, you know, dunking on fund managers. They don't understand the J curve, which I don't know why, but you're not going to believe this Dave, but somebody didn't understand somebody on the internet made a mistake. And I felt obligated to go fix that and correct it.

42:29But journalists were all looking at like Andreessen Horowitz leaked data or something. And there was like misinformation about, well, this is year three or four of that fund. And I'm like, the fact that that fund has any IRR, do you know what the J-curve is? And I just started asking these folks, you know, if you're a journalist, you don't know what the J-curve is. Listen, what we do is unique in the world. And so, and the J-curve, did the J-curve go away for a decade? Is that the problem in our industry? Yeah, it did. And it was interesting. Every three months, we do a review of all of our funds.

43:01We just did it yesterday. And what was really interesting was that when we were looking at the investments we've made in our current fund, which is Fund 16, 90 % of those investments were below 1x. They were in the J curve. And that's the first time we've seen it for probably six or seven years. the j-curve prior to that had been compressed and in some instances had disappeared altogether whereas this time around it's back and and while that might seem you know counter intuitively for me that's that's a positive because it means less money's coming into the industry it's harder to raise capital only the best companies are going to be able to do that so the level of competition for the best companies is going to go down their ability to be more capital efficient because they're being forced to do more with less is increasing.

43:54Their ability to recruit the best talent is increasing because that talent isn't as thinly spread. So the fact that we're seeing a J curve in years, one, two, three of the investments we've made recently, I take as a positive. Yeah. Constraint makes for great art, and deadlines make for great art. This is something I've learned in my career. I was listening to an interview with Bob Dylan and arguably blood on the track. So I'll go back to bob dylan today i don't know why but yeah blood on the tracks i mean a seminal album and they were you know asking him like how did you know he hit this magical album you know tangled up in blue shelter from the storm this is really great great tracks on there and he said yeah you know uh columbia records i owed them a record and they were going to sue me and i had gotten a big advance and so i had to give them a record and so my manager said bob you're going to have to pay a big settlement if you don't get that record out so i went to the studio and i recorded it's like all these top reporters absolutely crestfallen at the inspiration for blood on the tracks is you know had to return the advance or had to get this thing out the door yeah no it's it's i was gonna say it's it's crazy it's it is it's crazy you know that the what what it takes to for that inspiration to happen you just never know and then i remember at the turn of the century, the digital camera came out, the Sony VX1000.

45:17I had met this kid, Bennett Miller. He did a documentary called The Cruise at Sundance. And there was this big debate. Well, now, because you weren't using film socket, you didn't have to get it developed, that we would see this incredible renaissance where anybody could take this VX1000, shoot on digital, and you could do a hundred takes. So no longer did you have to worry, you would get better art because and it turned out the constraint of having to ask your investors for more money to develop more film to get an extra day of shooting the constraint of only being able to shoot for 10 days on an indie film or you know 45 days on a medium-sized film or whatever it is constraint made all of those artists directors set designers actors focus and that's my perception of what's happening right now is the constraint of lps constraint with the founders having only a certain amount of money deployed, everybody gets a smaller budget.

46:11Everybody gets really focused. Make better art. Make better startups. It's just clear as day to me. Yeah. No, it's really interesting. Just one comment on the sort of fund sizes and what you were saying about a firm like Andreessen. Again, there seems to be a bit of a narrative going around sort of VC Twitter that it's impossible to get fund returners on a billion-dollar fund. So we just had a look at our data to see how many times we've had one company return a billion dollars back to a fund. And there's been nearly 50 instances, 5-0. 5-0? Wow. Yeah, 5-0 instances. I can name them. Yeah, it's Facebook, Uber, Robinhood.

46:59Yeah, I mean, it's hard to get a billion dollars. WhatsApp, Snowflake, Coinbase. Snowflake, Coinbase, sure. roblox pinodo uipath slack yeah some of them are still unrealized so you know databricks bigma yeah stripe stripe comes to mind yeah yeah it makes sense when you think about it it's so hard to hit a deck of corn that's the other thing like a 10 billion dollar company everybody thinks that they're i think because of the paper corn you know i just had aileen lee on the pod three weeks ago i mean it's such a bounty of knowledge on this podcast uh and you know she was talking about the paper corns and we were trying to estimate of whatever number of unicorns out there she thinks it's like 40 50 percent are not going to reach unicorn status again what do you think it is unicorns from the last cycle that will not get a billion dollar evaluation again yeah i mean i i i don't have any visibility into putting it into putting a number on it i think i think broadly, I think there's a lot of companies out there that are way overvalued.

48:04One of the things we look at is those loss ratios. We talked about somewhere between 50 % to 60 % of companies not returning capital back to the funds that backed them. We've seen those numbers be a lot lower in recent vintages. My sense is that they are only going to go up. Whereas for the last four or five vintage years, we might be at 20 % to 30%. Ultimately, I think they're going to hit those 50 % to 60%. So if you're backing that into what does that mean for companies, I don't know what percent of companies are valued at a billion dollars out of the cohort that was funded over those years.

48:42So it's difficult to give you a percentage of how many of them are going to disappear. But I think broadly, we have to expect that things are going to get worse before they get better. In the seed stage, it was unbelievable to me how often a founder would be able to get a bridge for 18 months, 12 months. And they didn't have product market fit. And this was just a new startup in the same shell of the past one. It was basically a hard pivot or a soft pivot, but generally hard pivots. And then something happened last year where the founders themselves... And my belief is one I learned from Rule Off, which was I give up when the founder gives up, or the day after the founder gives up, that's when I decide to give in and accept the reality that the startups are zero or whatever.

49:29We're doing an acquihire, whatever it is, they shut down. Yeah, we saw them all come in the last year. And we had to sit with the founders, recognize the effort they put in for two, three, four, five, six, seven years, and that it was going to result in a zero. And I give them all a talk. I said, listen, this is like the greatest success that you tried um and all i ask in this failure is two things one we shut down properly so that you don't have tax issues and the employees everything so just let's let's do this properly because i've seen this blow up um in a bad way um so let's wrap up gracefully and then number two can i be your first phone call when you have your next idea it's the only two things i ask um and then let's have a dinner in you know 30 days or 60 days and when you're licked your wounds and feel good and let's figure out what we learned and what you want to do next and you want to gig somewhere i can help with that if you need a vacation recommendation i can tell you where to go skiing and i just kind of like really focus on that moment because man having been there myself as an entrepreneur it sucks it really sucks to to put the startup to bed and you know i hate to say it didn't trigger anybody but it's it's like putting down a dog or something you know like yeah that feeling of like oh it's eminent pain and suffering i'm gonna have But I find so many VCs and so many capital allocators don't own that moment.

50:50They just disappear from the board and they stop talking to the founder. And I just thought, well, if you're going to be there. Yeah. One of the things that I think will be interesting again over the next year or two is it feels like there's clearly been a huge influx of new entrants into the VC space, whether they're solo GPs or sort of super angels. and we haven't invested in any of them, but we've talked to a number of them. And it does feel as if there is a, clearly not all of them, but a significant percentage that are almost seen as a lifestyle choice. They're doing it because they can raise a little bit of money from friends and family and they can fund their friends' companies and they can be everyone's favorite person.

51:35And when the music's still playing, it's great. But when you have to tell your friend that you're not going to fund their next round, and they're going to have to lay off half their company, and actually, they're probably going to have to shut their company down, then it suddenly becomes a very, very different business. And so I think it'll be really interesting for us to see what happens to that group of investors that came in towards the top of the market thinking venture was an easy asset class when you do start to have to have those really, really difficult conversations. Yeah. They're just not built for it.

52:12I'll be honest. I'll call it what it is. When you have to have those hard conversations, some people are built for it. Some people aren't built for it. And I just don't think most people are built for it. I'll be honest. This is an extreme pursuit on the founder level and the GP level, on the LP level. And each person, it's a little bit less extreme, but it's still an extreme pursuit. And most people are not built for the conversations we're talking about here and how hard it is. And then I can tell you, if you do happen to be lucky enough to make it to your third or fourth fund, guess what? Now you got a track record.

52:44Now you have every bet you've ever made. and people like yourself who love to dive into that data. And then you will face the reckoning. You gave an extra 50K to this company instead of giving it to a new company. Why? Oh, well, I wanted to support the founder. And this is something where I've changed my attitude 100%. I'm telling founders, the reserves are for the top 5 % of performers. And then my team, because they have big hearts and they love these founders. I really think we should put something in. Hey, can we just put 50K in? Can we put 100K in? And I have to tell them, hey, well, that 50 or 100 could go into the top 5%, who we know are going to, on average, return at 2050x.

53:24So do you want that 100K to turn into 5 million? Or do you want to put 100K into something that we are relatively sure will just extend its life for 12 months? And this is, again, not to use graphic analogies here, but if you know this person's going to die, we're doing triage. That's the way to say it. And triage is not a pretty business. Yeah. And it's interesting. It's super important as well, because one of the different ways we've cut our data is we've talked about what it looks like in terms of the percent of companies that don't return capital or do 5x. We've also looked at it by the cost basis.

53:59So how much capital actually goes into each of those companies at those different levels. So companies that return less than 1x, companies that return 1 to 3x. And what we find generally is that the underperforming managers tend to put more capital into their worst performing companies. So let's say they had 50 % of their companies fail to return capital. They could be putting 55 % to 60 % of their capital into those companies. Whereas the opposite is true for the best performing funds. They actually put less capital into their worst performing ones, and they put more capital into their best performing ones.

54:38So if you were looking at, say, 5 % of their companies were 10x multiples, they might have been able to put 7%, 8%, 9%, 10 % of capital into those 10x companies. And it's that nuance of portfolio management and portfolio construction, which I think you have to be a real kind of venture geek in this industry to really appreciate. Yeah, it's such a good point, man. I think it's like, it's the one for me as a manager that along with doubling down, which this falls into really the most important of my game that I have to get better at, you know, and you have, it's great about talking to you and, you know, appreciate your time and the conversations we had off the program is you can only get better at the game by studying your performance.

55:23if you're not willing to videotape yourself putting up three-point shots and have people say listen you know this is what you need to change in your shot or like review game tape you're not going to get better and you're not going to win and then if you don't win you don't you know you may be able to fake it for two funds but you can't fake it for three or four you know you got to bring it and i know the reason why these managers give it to the bottom half of the performers instead of the top half it's because the bottom half are the squeaky wheels that run out of money that don't have a competition to buy their shares.

55:54So if you were to compare the bottom to the top, the top has got tons of people throwing money at them. And they may not even come to you, or they may ask you to waive your pro rata. In which case, you've got to fight for your pro rata, which I've become an expert at, dealing with certain firms, I won't say which ones, that have tried to screw me on my pro rata. But people who follow me on Twitter might be able to guess, literally being in standoffs with one particular fund twice, and they know who they are. but then you know you're you got the the other group which is struggling to get capital and so they ask you for capital and founders are self-selecting for charisma self-selecting for spinning a yarn the good ones at least uh you know but i think all of them and so the bottom half that probably should be shutting their companies down and they're just so good at hey i need you jay cow you supported me early i need you to support this round i need you to lead this round We don't lead these rounds.

56:48We've already made two bats on the company. I find having that conversation on the way in two or three times with the founder, how we do our follow-on investing has helped us deliver the news a little bit more crisply later on. Hey, remember when we told you we only have reserves for the top 5 % of performers? Here's what that looks like right now. It looks like 4X revenue year over year. What was your revenue growth? It doesn't help either that there are so many examples of really successful companies that have had those near-death experiences that in the back of your mind as an investor, you're thinking, that's a good point.

57:22Just one more round. Just one more round. We'll get them over. And because every company that you invest in, you have high conviction on every founder you back, you believe is going to be super successful. And so to actually flip the switch and say, it's time, it's time to call it a day because for that founder, their most precious thing is their time. It's not the capital, it's their time because they have a finite amount of that. And if they're spending it, trying to knock their head against the wall on something that's not going to work, then they're missing doing something that could be really impactful.

57:58Yeah. It's just such a good point. I didn't even consider that one because you also have the fund manager, the GP is like, I just want to see one more card. Maybe my hand will improve. And you know what? Yeah. Sometimes it does. Sometimes you hit runner, runner, and all of a sudden your flush comes in, or you hit your straight, or you hit your trips, and oh, yum, yum. But you do have to put a percentage on that. Listen, Dave Clark, amazing to have you on the program. I'm putting you on the schedule right now. You're going to be one of the top guests already of 2024. So we're going to do our year-end wrap-up in December.

58:27Can I put you on the schedule for a December show? Yeah, no, it would be delicious. All right. Thank you, my friend. And we'll see you all next time on This Week in Startups. Bye-bye. Hey, everybody. I talk to a lot of founders here on This Week in Startups and as an investor, and they tell me the same thing over and over again. They want to spend time together. So we've been working here on a new meetup program. We call it Founder Fridays. And Founder Fridays are an event by founders for founders. This is an event that is hosted in cities by people like you. If you're listening to This Week in Startups, you're a founder.

58:59Now, why is it important for founders to get together? Shouldn't you be at home just focusing? Shouldn't you be in the office just focusing on your startup? Well, if you get together with other founders, true founders who are in the arena building like you are, you're going to get a lot of value from that because you can trade notes about what's working at your startup and what's not working. The truth is, if you're facing a problem, there are hundreds of founders out there who have probably solved it already. And instead of you banging your head against the wall, when you sit there and you talk to three or four founders, somebody say, oh, you know what?

59:29I had that same human resources problem. Oh, I had that same technical problem. Oh, I had that same marketing problem. and they might tell you about a tool or a service that'll solve that problem for you. This happens over and over and over again when I do Founder Fridays with our portfolio companies. Now we're going to give you that same experience, but here's what I need you to do. I need you to host this in your city. So you're going to go to thisweekinsartups.com slash meetups. That's it. And you'll see a landing page where you can sign up and you can say, I want to host in my city. Now your city may already be hosting, so you can just join that person.

1:00:00We're using a wonderful piece of software that we've invested in called River. You can sign up for a River account just by going to thisweekinstartups.com slash meetups. And we're going to do these on a rolling basis. You can join an existing meetup if it's already occurring in your city, or you and one or two other founders can start your own. Please go to thisweekinstartups.com slash meetups if you are a founder. This is for founders by founders. We vet everybody to make sure you're a founder. And if you host it, it's a non-commercial event. So this is your chance to connect. Go to thisweekinstartups.com slash meetups.