In short
Robotaxis approaching a commercial inflection point and a potential $1 trillion TAM by 2040, driven by faster AI progress, falling hardware/training costs, clearer regulation, and operators moving from pilots to 24/7 driverless commercial service.
Guests
Andrew Percoco (head of North America Auto and Shared Mobility Research) and Tim Hsiao (greater China auto and shared mobility analyst).
Key claims
U.S. autonomous miles could grow from $116M (2025) to $16B by 2032 but remain ~0.5% of all miles; profitability depends on high utilization and falling insurance costs (~$0.30/mile). China shows real break-even: 5,000+ vehicles across 7,500+ sq km; some operators average 20+ orders/vehicle/day; TCO down 30–40%; remote assistance 1 per 20–40 vehicles improving toward 1 per 100.
Notable examples
China cities including Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Wuhan; expansion targets include more U.S. cities and higher fleet density; future focus markets include Europe, Middle East, and Southeast Asia.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VORobotaxis' Market Potential
0:45 to 1:30
Discussion on the evolving landscape of robotaxis and their potential market size.
“Firstly, NTN AI is improving much faster.”
Factors Driving Change
1:30 to 2:57
Analysis of factors contributing to the growth and viability of robotaxis.
“autonomous miles could rise from$116 million in$25 to$16 billion by 2032, but still make up only about 0.5 % of all miles driven.”
Comparative Analysis: U.S. vs. China
2:57 to 5:05
Examination of robotaxi operations in the U.S. and China, highlighting differences and advancements.
“I'd say the first is seeing the rollouts continue to improve and the density of the rollouts improve across the select cities that we've seen in the U.S.”
Profit Pool Dynamics
5:05 to 7:03
Insights on how software and service models affect profitability in the robotaxi industry.
“So make it some more like the real commercial cases instead of just like a trowel that we saw a couple of years ago.”
Cost Structures and Adoption
7:03 to 8:46
Exploration of cost challenges and how lowering vehicle costs can impact robotaxi adoption.
“And, you know, I think, Tim, an important part of this commercialization process is driving down the cost structure of robotaxis, right?”
Future Market Insights
8:46 to 12:39
Discussion on key markets to watch for robotaxi growth beyond the U.S. and China.
“So Andrew, as we just discussed, the lower vehicle costs help, but the operating model still has to work, right?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I'm Andrew Percoco, head of North America Auto and Shared Mobility Research. And I'm Tim Hsiao, greater China auto and shared mobility analyst. Today, why robotaxis may be approaching a commercial inflection point. It's Thursday, August 13th at 8 a.m. in New York. And 8 p.m. in Hong Kong. So Tim, you know, for years, robotaxis were really confined to limited pilot rollouts across the globe. You've done a lot of work over the last few weeks. We put out a big collaborative report on the robotaxi market and how it could be a$1 trillion TAM by 2040. What makes this moment different than some of the other robotaxi hype cycles that we've seen in the past?
0:42We observe where things have been converging. Firstly, NTN AI is improving much faster. Secondly, hardware and the training costs are falling. and thirdly more well capitalized players can found deployment and last but not least regulation is becoming clearer. The leading operators are no longer just demonstrating the technology. They are running fully driverless services around the clock and generating commercial rights. So in our view the question has been shifting from can it work to who can expand operating areas, raise utilization and lower costs at a much faster pace. So that's a very different setup versus the 2018 and 2021 hype cycles.
1:30Andrew, U.S. autonomous miles could rise from$116 million in$25 to$16 billion by 2032, but still make up only about 0.5 % of all miles driven. How can robotaxis become a meaningful business while remaining such a small part of the market? I would say, you know, obviously the U.S. mobility and transportation market is a massive market. So even with the rapid growth that we expect in robotaxis, it's going to take a long time to make a material impact in the overall market share of mobility. But if you think about the profit pools in this business, 16 billion miles at$2 a mile can pretty quickly become a very significant TAM and market opportunity.
2:16And I think, you know, fundamentally, if you think about a robo taxi business, I would argue you're better utilizing an asset. Or if you think about the car park, the amount of vehicles that are in the fleet today or in the U.S. today, they're sitting idle 90 percent of the time. So you're talking about taking a smaller amount of volume and driving a higher utilization on that fleet and driving much improved economics. So, yes, it's going to take time to displace the hundreds of millions of cars that you have on the road in the U.S. and displace the penetration of miles driven. But ultimately, we think that the profit pool and the opportunity in robo-taxis are much more attractive for the entire value chain as it relates to robo-taxis.
2:56And I say there's a few things that we're watching along the way to make sure that, to your point, this is not another hype cycle and that there's real commercial backbone to this business. I'd say the first is seeing the rollouts continue to improve and the density of the rollouts improve across the select cities that we've seen in the U.S. Right now, robotexies are only available in a handful of cities in the U.S. So we want to see that continue to expand into more cities, but also the density of the fleet increase in the cities where they're currently present. And at the same time, the safety side is still something that gets a lot of questions in making sure that it is truly safer than a human driver across technology platforms, right?
3:38There's various players in this market with different approaches to technology. So I think seeing that the safety curve is starting to or continues to improve is going to be very important for the viability of this market going forward. Obviously, U.S. is very different from China. What have you seen in China? China has shown some impressive growth and utilization in some of the operators that are on the road in China. So just curious your perspective in terms of what you're seeing on the ground there. I think China shows that there's as much in operations and skill challenges as the technology challenges.
4:13The fleet in China is above 5 ,000 vehicles across, I think, more than 7 ,500 square kilometers in key cities. And some operators average more than 20 orders per vehicle per day. So total cost of ownership has fallen roughly 30 to 40%, while remote assistance ratios are moving from like one operator for like 20 to 40 to even like 50 to 60 vehicles. And we think it will achieve like one for 100. So that has produced real break-even happens, especially some major cities like Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Wuhan, Tier 1, Tier 2 cities. So in our view, I think in China, why the operating domains, lead density and utilization rate, as you just mentioned, reinforce one another.
5:05So make it some more like the real commercial cases instead of just like a trowel that we saw a couple of years ago. If more value shifts towards the software, lead operation and the data, as well as the customer relations, how does that change the profit pool across the auto industry, especially in the U.S.? First off, I think the auto industry in general is becoming more software-focused and aware. You know, it's being led by the robo-taxi market where the autonomous driving software and technology is obviously the most important part about getting this technology to market. That is ultimately trickling down to personally-owned cars where you're seeing more autonomous technology being deployed.
5:55Auto OEMs are able to charge subscription revenue for this software. So it expands, I'd say, the value proposition of buying a vehicle expands the profit pool for the OEMs. It changes, in some ways, the cyclicality or can change the cyclicality of the industry. If you've got more kind of recurring revenue subscription like a business model versus just a hardware-focused OEM model, which has been kind of the predominant focus for the OEMs historically. I'd say the other angle, interesting angle here is as this business scales, there's going to be a lot of vehicles on the road. There's going to be a lot of fleets of vehicles on the road.
6:30Those need to be managed by somebody or some company, right? So if you think about the rental car industry, right? These companies have been in the business of managing fleets and renting out fleets for a very long time. They know how to do that very, very well. I think there's an interesting opportunity for that part of the value chain to participate in aiding these robo-taxi fleet operators in scaling and bringing their business to market, charging, maintenance, reconditioning, all the things that take a lot of time and a pretty large amount of physical infrastructure. That's an opportunity for the rental car industry to come in and leverage their existing know-how to help.
7:07And, you know, I think, Tim, an important part of this commercialization process is driving down the cost structure of robotaxis, right? They're very sensor heavy. They're very compute heavy. I think China is the very clear leader on cost and supply chain. I think in China, you're seeing robotaxis around$35 ,000 to$40 ,000, which is considerably lower than what we see in the U.S. today. So how do you think that that will accelerate adoption in China? But I'd say more importantly, overseas, as some of these robotaxi businesses look to expand outside of China. In our view, it could be a major accelerant because as you may notice that the depreciation is still one of the largest fixed costs for robotaxi.
7:50So as we just mentioned, I think$35 ,000 to$40 ,000 U.S. dollars, the purpose-built RoboTaxi can lower the breakeven utilization threshold and make it easier to finance fleets and open cities that could not support the$150 ,000 U.S. dollar vehicle. and not only in China because globally I think the Chinese cost deflation can be paired with the local ride-hailing platforms in the overseas market that provide demand and regulatory access but as we highlighted in our previous global reports once again we don't think the cheap ego is sufficiently by itself so in our views on top of the competitive cost structure registration, data localization, insurance, and local operating costs can still delay the margin curve, particularly in Europe, which we think there are still quite a lot of uncertainties.
8:52So Andrew, as we just discussed, the lower vehicle costs help, but the operating model still has to work, right? So with operating costs expected to fall and the margin potentially moving above 30 % even higher at scale. What are the key assumptions investors should focus on? There's a handful of key assumptions you need to sensitize to get to that 30 % or more margin structure in this business. I'd say the first is going to be utilization, right? You need to be running these assets at high utilization to essentially amortize those fixed costs over a larger number of miles driven. Number two, insurance today is probably one of the largest buckets of cost when we think about this business.
9:36Insurance is, from our perspective, a big unlock for this industry as the safety, as we mentioned before, the safety data continues to improve. We think that will be a reason to expect that the insurance costs associated with autonomous driving technology and robotaxis will continue to decline. It's about 30 cents per mile on our estimate. So it's very significant in terms of the overall cost structure of robotaxis. drivers are where there's the most sensitivity around the model. Obviously, there's charging costs, there's maintenance costs. Those are, I think, fairly known at this point. But the utilization and insurance, I think, are the two biggest drivers of really getting that margin profile to improve over time.
10:14Tim, I guess when you think about the next, call it 10 to 15 years, I think we put out a trillion dollar market by 2040 from a TAM perspective. What do you think the biggest markets are that investors should be watching in terms of getting us to that trillion dollar, Tam? Obviously, U.S. and China are kind of leading the charge right now. But what are the next markets that people should be watching? In addition to the major market, as you just mentioned, the U.S. and China, in our views, I think we also need to focus on markets like Europe, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia. I think their scale is underappreciated, as we highlighted in our previous report.
10:52Because if you think about that, Europe, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia in aggregate have roughly 4 million taxi together with the right-hand of e-codes. So even with 25 % conversion would imply about 1 million is the level 4 of e-codes. The Middle East offers supportive regulators, you can tell, simpler operating environments and the higher fares. And if you think about the Southeast Asia, the ASEAN, I think the market has dense demand and strong local platforms. And of course, euro markets definitely can be ignored because euro will move more slowly because we think the regulations and data rules would initially add cost.
11:32But the truth is, if you think about the European market, I think the taxis or ride-hailing fares are among the highest globally, even compared to the US and the rest of the world. So in our view, the material margin could be more attractive. And this market on top of the U.S. and China in our view can support several region winners. So not only limited to a very, you know, the single one or two markets. Yeah, it's great, Tim. I mean, it sounds like, you know, the robotaxi race, if you want to put it that way, will be won by those who can really bring together technology and a compelling cost structure while also following the proper regulations and making sure the safety is improving at a rate that's acceptable to regulators.
12:16So Tim, thanks for taking the time to talk today. And thanks for listening. If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please leave us a review wherever you listen and share the podcast with a friend or colleague today. The preceding content is informational only and based on information available when created. It is not an offer or solicitation, nor is it tax or legal advice. It does not consider your financial circumstances and objectives and may not be suitable for you.
From the publisher
Robotaxis are accelerating along the road to commercial viability. Auto and Shared Mobility Analysts Andrew Percoco and Tim Hsiao discuss what this rapid development means for global investors.
Read more insights from Morgan Stanley.
----- Transcript -----
Andrew Percoco: Welcome to Thoughts on the Market. I’m Andrew Percoco, Head of North America Auto and Shared Mobility Research.
Tim Hsiao: And I'm Tim Hsiao, Greater China Auto and Shared Mobility Analyst.
Andrew Percoco: Today, why robotaxis may be approaching a commercial inflection point. It's Thursday, August 13th at 8am in New York.
Tim Hsiao: And 8 pm in Hong Kong.
Andrew Percoco: So Tim, for years, robotaxis were really confined to limited pilot rollouts across the globe. You've done a lot of work over the last few weeks. We put out a big collaborative report on the robotaxi market and how it could be a $1 trillion TAM by 2040.
What makes this moment different than some of the other robotaxi hype cycles that we've seen in the past?
Tim Hsiao: We observe four things have been converging. Firstly, end-to-end AI is improving much faster. Secondly, hardware and the training costs are falling. And thirdly, more well-capitalized players can fund deployment. And last but not least, regulation is becoming clearer.
The leading operators are no longer just demonstrating the technology. They are running fully driverless services around the clock and generating commercial rides. So in our view, the questions has been shifting from can it work to who can expand operating areas, raise utilization and lower costs at a much faster pace.
So that's a very different setup versus the 2018 and 2021 hype cycles.
Andrew, U.S. autonomous miles could rise from 116 million in [20]25 to 16 billion by 2032. But still make up only about 0.5 percent of all miles driven. How can robotaxis become a meaningful business while remaining such a small part of the market?
Andrew Percoco: I would say, you know, obviously the U.S. mobility and transportation market is a massive market. So even with the rapid growth that we expect in robotaxis, it's going to take a long time to make a material impact in the overall market share of mobility.
But if you think about the profit pools in this business, 16 billion miles at $2 a mile can, you know, pretty quickly become a very significant TAM and market opportunity.
And I think, you know, fundamentally, if you think about a robotaxi business, I would argue you're better utilizing an asset... Or if you think about the, you know, car park, the amount of vehicles that are, you know, in the fleet today or in the U.S. today, they're sitting idle 90 percent of the time, right?
So you're talking about taking a smaller amount of volume and driving a higher utilization on that fleet and driving much improved economics. So yes, it's going to take time to displace the, you know, hundreds of millions of cars that you have on the road in the U.S. and displace the penetration of miles driven.
But ultimately, you know, we think that the profit pool and the opportunity in robotaxis are much more attractive for the entire value chain, as it relates to robotaxis. And I'd say there's a few things that we're watching along the way to make sure that, to your point, you know, this is not another hype cycle. And that there's real commercial backbone to this business.
I'd say the first is seeing the rollouts continue to improve, and the density of the rollouts improve across the select cities that we've seen in the U.S. right now. Robotaxis are only available in a handful of cities in the U.S., so we want to see that continue to expand into more cities. But also the density of the fleet increase in the cities where they're currently present.
And at the same time the safety side is still something that gets a lot of questions in making sure that it is truly safer than a human driver, across technology platforms, right? There's various players in this market with different approaches to technology. So, I think seeing that the safety curve is starting to or continues to improve is going to be very important for the viability of this market going forward.
Obviously U.S. is very different from China. What have you seen in China? China has shown some impressive growth and utilization in some of the operators that are on the road in China. So just curious as to your perspective in terms of what you're seeing on the ground there.
Tim Hsiao: I think China shows that there's much in operations and skill challenges as technology challenges. The fleet in China is above 5,000 vehicles across I think more than 7500 square kilometers in key cities. And some operators average more than 20 orders per vehicle per day.
So, total cost of ownership has fallen roughly 30 to 40 percent, while remote assistance ratios are moving from like one operator for like 20 to 40, even like 50 to 60 vehicles. And we think it will achieve like one for a 100. So that has produced real break-even happens, especially in some major cities like Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Wuhan – the tier one, tier two cities.
So in our view, I think in China, wider operating domains, fleet density and utilization rate, as you just mentioned, reinforce one another. So make it some more like the real commercial case. Instead of just, like trials as we saw a couple years ago.
If more value shifts towards the software, fleet operation, and the data, as well as the customer relations, how does that change the profit pool, across the auto industry, especially in the U.S.?
Andrew Percoco: First off, I think the auto industry in general is becoming, you know, more software focused and aware. You know, it's being led by the robotaxi market where the autonomous driving software and technology is obviously the most important part about getting this technology to market.
That is ultimately trickling down to personally owned cars where you're seeing more autonomous technology being deployed. Auto OEMs are able to charge subscription revenue for this software. So it expands, I'd say, the value proposition of buying a vehicle expands the profit pool for the OEMs.
It changes in some ways the cyclicality, or can change the cyclicality of the industry if you've got more kind of recurring revenues, subscription like business model versus just a hardware focused OEM model, which has been kind of the predominant focus for the OEMs historically.
I'd say the other angle, interesting angle here is, you know, as this business scales, there's gonna be a lot of vehicles on the road. There's gonna be a lot of fleets of vehicles on the road. Those need to be managed by somebody or some company, right? So if you think about, you know, the rental car industry, right? These companies have been in the business of managing fleets and renting out fleets for a very long time. They know how to do that very, very well.
I think there's an interesting opportunity for that part of the value chain, to participate in aiding these robotaxi fleet operators, in scaling and bringing their business to market. Charging, maintenance, reconditioning, all the things that take a lot of time and a pretty large amount of physical infrastructure.
That's an opportunity for the rental car industry to come in and leverage their existing know-how to help. And, you know, I think Tim, an important part of this commercialization process is driving down the cost structure of robotaxis. They are very sensor; heavy sensor heavy. They're very compute heavy. I think China is the clear leader on cost and supply chain. I think in China you're seeing robotaxis, you know, around $35,000 to $40,000, which is considerably lower than what we see in the U.S. today.
So, how do you think that that will accelerate adoption in China, but I'd say more importantly overseas as some of these robotaxis businesses look to expand outside of China.
Tim Hsiao: In our view, it could be a major accelerant because as we noticed that the depreciation is still one of the largest fixed costs for robotaxi. So, as we just mentioned, I think, $35000 to $45000 US dollars, the purpose-built robotaxi can lower the breakeven utilization threshold. And make it easier to finance fleets and open cities that could not support the $150,000 US dollar vehicle.
And not only in China, because globally, I think the Chinese cost deflation can be paired with the local ride-hailing platforms in the overseas market that provide demand and regulatory access. But as we highlighted in our previous, the global reports once again, we don't think the cheap vehicle is sufficiently by their self.
So in our views, on top of the competitive cost structure, registration, data localization, insurance, and local operating costs can still delay the margin curve, particularly in Europe, which we think there are still quite a lot of uncertainties.
So Andrew, as we just, as we just discussed, the lower vehicle costs help, but the operating model still has to work, right? So with operating costs expected to fall and the margin potentially moving above 30 percent or even higher at scale, what are the key assumptions investors should focus on?
Andrew Percoco: There’s a handful of key assumptions you need to sensitize to get to that 30 percent or more margin structure in this business. I'd say the first is going to be utilization, right? You need to be running these assets at a high utilization to essentially amortize those fixed costs over a larger number of miles driven.
Number two, insurance today is probably one of the largest buckets of cost when we think about this business. Insurance is, from our perspective, a big unlock for this industry as the safety, as we mentioned before, the safety data continues to improve. We think that will be a reason to, to expect that the insurance costs associated with autonomous driving technology and robotaxis will continue to decline.
It's about 30 cents per mile on our estimate, so it's very significant in terms of the overall cost structure of robotaxis. Drivers or where there's the most sensitivity around the model. Obviously, there's charging costs, there's maintenance costs. Those are, I think, fairly known at this point. But the utilization and insurance, I think, are the two biggest drivers of really getting that margin profile to improve over time.
Tim, I guess when you think about the next, call it 10 to 15 years, I think we will put out a trillion dollar market by 2040 from a TAM perspective.
What do you think the biggest markets are that investors should be watching, in terms of getting us to that trillion dollar TAM? Obviously, U.S. and China are kinda leading now, but what are the next markets people should be watching?
Tim Hsiao: In addition to the major market, as you just mentioned, the U.S. and China, in our views, I think we also need to focus on markets like Europe, the Middle East and Southeast Asia. I think their scale is underappreciated, as we highlighted in our previous report. Because if you think about that, Europe, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia in aggregate have roughly four million taxis together ride-hailing vehicles.
So even with 25 percent conversion, they imply that about one million is the L4s vehicles. The Middle East offers supportive regulators, you can tell, simpler operating environments and higher fares. And if you think about the Southeast Asia, the ASEAN, I think the market has dense demand and strong local platforms.
And of course, Euro markets definitely can't be ignored because Euro will move more slowly, because we think the regulations and the data rules would initially add cost. But the truth is, if you think about the European market, I think the taxis or ride-hailing fares are among the highest globally, even compared to the U.S. and rest of the world.
So in our view, the material margin could be more attractive. And this market, on top of the U.S. and China, in our view, can support several regional winners. So, not only limited to a very, you know, the single one or two markets.
Andrew Percoco: Yeah, it’s great Tim. It sounds like, you know, the robotaxi race, if you want to put it that way, will be won by those who can really bring together technology, and a compelling cost structure while also following the proper regulations and making sure the safety is improving at a rate that's acceptable to regulators.
So, Tim, thanks for taking the time to talk today.
And thanks for listening. If you enjoy Thoughts on the Market, please leave us a review wherever you listen, and share the podcast with a friend or colleague today.
