Burnham bounce: Labour overtakes Reform in polls – The Latest

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1:06In terms of an early election, if Labour was to go for it now, even if their poll lead grew a bit, you'd be leading your troops over the top of the trenches into the gunfire and knowing a lot of them wouldn't make it. I wouldn't get carried away by any poll. Reform UK do have problems at the moment, but they're still leading in a lot of polls. And even when they're not leading, they're behind by one or two points. You potentially have then Reform UK with 200 seats being the opposition. It would be a very, very different picture and potentially a much more difficult picture. From the Guardians today on Focus, this is The Latest with me, Lucy Hoth.

1:43Multiple polls have now put Labour ahead of reform for the first time in more than a year. Peter Walker, you're our senior political correspondent. This is really significant, isn't it? Because reform have had a really sizable lead over Labour since March of last year. That leads sometimes as high as 10 points. So what's behind this? Is this the Burnham bounce, as it's being dubbed in various places? It does seem to be the Burnham bounce. And this is a significant thing. I mean, polls, obviously, you have to be careful with them. But Reform UK were always very proud of saying they'd led for like 300 consecutive polls.

2:22and that's really important because it gave them the sense of potentially being the party more likely to be in government next time and for a fringe you know a lesser known party like them that's a really important thing so it's partly just the impetus of getting a new leader and without wishing to be too blunt about the man who's just exited number 10 door it's also a lot of Labour MPs think it's about getting a leader who's just slightly better who knows what he wants to do and he was able to do the comms and the new number 10 operation in terms of setting the tone of who this new guy is and what he wants to do has thus far gone pretty well and that seems to be reflected in the polls.

3:01Yeah I mean that certainly felt true hasn't it in the sense that last week we had a big announcement on a cost of living support package, we have an announcement today on the issue of young people being out of education or employment. This term NEATS that we had the Milburn Review, if people remember that, that we covered a couple of months ago into why so many young people are out of work. Tomorrow we'll have a big announcement on social care. It just feels like this is a politician who knows how to tell the story about what he's doing, which, as you say, it feels pretty different to his predecessor.

3:40It does, and it's interesting the way they've gone about it. So Burnham's first week, which was last week, they've kind of retrospectively billed as being the week where they did the consumer-focused stuff, the kind of quick stuff. So there was the VAT off electricity bills. There was the measures to try and help pubs and things like that. That was the kind of consumer cost of living stuff. And this week is being billed as, you know, Burnham running towards these seemingly intractable problems that other PMs have ducked for quite a long time. Social care is an obvious one. Neats is the other one.

4:12You know, this is a very, very big problem, which also ties into the benefits bill. Devolution is coming later in the week and we're expecting something on defence too. So this is the kind of big issues week. And it's interesting talking to people from other parties that they are saying, even if they don't necessarily agree with the policies, that they're quite impressed with the way it's been done and the way there's been this very coherent focus of basically introducing someone new to the public. And they started off by introducing him as, you know, isn't he funny? He's got his gazelle trainers and he wears casual clothes.

4:45He can make jokes. And now he's meeting foreign leaders wearing a suit and talking about social care and the other big problems the country hasn't been able to face. It's very calculated, but it's been done quite well so far. So in terms of these big problems facing the country, let's start with NEATS, which was spelled out at the end of May, as we said. But Andy Burnham is taking an approach by looking at local schooling, isn't he? Why is he looking at that in particular? It's a very Burnham thing. I mean, you know, NEAT's young people who are not in education or training or jobs is a massive thing.

5:21The Milburn Review said there's a million of them so far across the UK. And he warned that without action, it could easily go up to 1.25 million. And this is a huge thing. And it's something that voters notice. They see a lot of young people who are not able to find jobs or do anything else. And with the particular approach he's done, he's taking it in a very Andy Burnham way, which is the idea that schools should be able to decide on a local basis what kind of technical skills are more useful for employees in their particular area where they are. To an extent, nothing amongst this is that new in that there was this Greater Manchester, well, not qualification, but an approach to qualification called the MBAC, the Manchester Baccalaureate, which has been going in Greater Manchester for a couple of years.

6:04and this is this thing that lots of PMs and ministers have talked about of not only prioritising university education and GCSEs and stuff like that but also people who do not want to go down that route prioritising technical education and vocational education and the sort of things will actually get people jobs and it's hard to know what the impact is going to be none of this will start till 2028 you need money for it and it's also not clear how some of this will actually operate in practice. The idea is you have a lot of 14 and 15 year olds who will get work experience. But for all sorts of reasons, that's not easy to do.

6:41A lot of workplaces just don't have the capacity to take large numbers of young people on. So it's very much a work in progress. This is just a broad brush so far. But there's a lot of supportive quotes from industry and businesses who seem to think this is the right general way forward. Yeah. And so similarly, tomorrow, we have a big announcement on social care or a speech about social care, which has been one of those issues that has dogged so many prime ministers, so many iterations of the various formations of government that we've had in the last few years. What are we expecting, do you think?

7:19And the key issue is how it will be funded, right? We're not really expecting much in terms of the policy because Bernard's people are pointing out it's still very, very early days. what we're expecting is a speech to set out the fact that this is a problem that needs to be dealt with and has been put off for too long um burnham on the campaign trail where he's campaigning for the makefield seat which he's now got talked very eloquently about the fact his dad has got uh alzheimer's and is in care so he's got personal experience of basically as you know a lot of viewers will know how patchy and often awful the care system is so he's basically saying this is we can't have another time where we look at this and pretend it's too difficult.

8:05So he's saying there will be action, there will be difficult choices. What those choices are remains to be seen. It does seem likely on balance that there will be some element at least of people's estates or the amount of money that they owe or that they have being used to pay some contribution towards the care, which has immediately brought up criticisms of what other parties like to call a death tax. Yeah, that was leading a lot of the right-wing press yesterday, this idea of a death tax, which brings to mind the dementia tax that was so harmful to Theresa May when she tried to introduce major social care reform.

8:45But this has torpedoed these reforms in the past. It does feel as if perhaps the public are ready for a politician with the impotence and the courage to basically say, look, you know, the current system doesn't work. We have to do something. This is the only realistic way we can do it. You know, time will tell whether he will actually do that. But this definitely feels like a bit of a moment. It definitely does feel like a bit of a moment. And I'm wondering, there was speculation over the weekend about whether Andy Burnham might go for an election, given that we've got this bounce in the polls and given that reform are in quite a bit of hot water for various different reasons with a great deal of scrutiny of their finances on now multiple fronts.

9:31Burnham himself has ruled that out, but that's pretty standard practice, isn't it? And if you go for it, you go for it very suddenly and without much anticipation. Sorry to ask you a hypothetical, but what do you think of the chances? I'm up for that. I would have to say I think for now the chances are low. and one of the very very important reasons for this which was actually we're chatting about this in the office the other day and a colleague was pointing out that if Labour was to go for it now even if their poll lead grew a bit you'd be going into an election accepting the fact the majority you have now is going to be cut by quite a lot and quite a lot your MPs are going to lose their seats and that will not make you a popular party leader and that's something he really really needs to think about.

10:14You'd be leading your troops basically over the top of the trenches into the gunfire and knowing a lot of them wouldn't make it. That is quite tricky. I mean, in terms of an early election, it depends what your definition of early is. We don't officially have to have one until mid-2029. It's possible if things, you know, stay good for the Burnham project, then having one in 2028 wouldn't necessarily be seen as early. You know, he's been quite definitive in ruling it out. And my instinct is to certainly go in the next year or 18 months would be very, very risky. You know, Reform UK do have problems at the moment, but they're still leading in a lot of polls.

10:57And even when they're not leading in this couple of polls this week, they're behind by, you know, one or two points. They would still pick up a lot of seats. And even if Labour did win the election, you potentially have then Reform UK with 200 seats being the opposition. It would be a very, very different picture and potentially a much more difficult picture. Yeah. And just lastly, Peter, Reform is not the only party that's in a bit of trouble. The Greens are also facing some heat today. The Green Party leader, Zach Polanski in particular, in trouble over a very controversial Instagram post. What happened and how have they responded?

11:34I've not seen the post because it was deleted by Zach Polanski soon afterwards but he says he shared a post which had about 20 pictures of it one of which which is a picture which I have seen that everyone's seen is a photograph of a man with a beard wearing a black t-shirt with a guillotine on it and the slogan making plans for Nigel which for those not as old as me is an XTC song from the 1980s and and you know the inference is quite clear and Reform UK have responded with outrage saying this is incitement to murder. Polanski needs to be arrested. There's been a third party complaint to the police and police are looking into it.

12:12I mean, with a caveat, I'm not a lawyer. I'll be surprised if legally this went anywhere because it was deleted instantly. You could argue it's one of a series of pictures. He said he didn't see it. The worries for Greens is that it highlights the way that Zach Polanski is basically a digital native. He's on all these platforms all the time. He has one person to help manage social media, but the bulk of it is done by him. This seems to have been done by him. If you want to be PM, there's an argument you can't do that forever. Which has been so much of his appeal of authenticity, but can obviously cause quite serious mistakes such as this.

12:49Peter, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. That's it for today. Thanks again to Peter Walker, our senior political correspondent. you can keep up with all his reporting over at theguardian.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Latest. Today on Focus will be back in your feeds as usual tomorrow morning. The Latest will be back tomorrow night. This episode was produced by Angus Neal. The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin. The executive producer was Zoe Hitch. And it was presented by me, Lucy Hoth.

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