‘El Guapo’: The Spanish PM standing up to Trump

0:00Pedro Sánchez:This is The Guardian.

0:08Pedro Sánchez:Today, the one European leader brave enough to stand up to Trump.

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0:56Pedro Sánchez:When the US and Israel audaciously attacked Iran just over two weeks ago, there was very little in the way of condemnation from Western leaders. Wary of riling Trump and careful not to jeopardise alliances, most opted to stay quiet.

1:13Guy Hedgecoe:I can say we're doing everything and have done everything we can at speed to make sure that we are properly protecting our citizens.

1:28Guy Hedgecoe:And the British working together to protect both the US and the British in joint bases where we're jointly located.

1:36Pedro Sánchez:Except for one. Pedro Sanchez.

1:44Pedro Sánchez:We will not be complicit in something that is bad for the world and that is also contrary to our values and interests just because we might fear reprisals from some. And it's not the first time the Spanish Prime Minister has criticised the Trump administration. He objected to the capture of President Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela.

2:06Guy Hedgecoe:President Trump seems to be the one who's saying, I'm making the decisions about Venezuela. Yeah, and I think this is a mistake.

2:13Pedro Sánchez:He condemned Israel's decimation of Gaza. It's in Israel's interest to work for peace. And today peace means the establishment of the Palestine state.

2:29Pedro Sánchez:When much of Europe has towed Trump's line, Spain's leader has become an outlier on the world stage. How come and why now? From The Guardian, I'm Nosheen Iqbal. Today in Focus, how Pedro Sanchez became Trump's fiercest critic.

2:52Pedro Sánchez:Guy Hedgko, you're a journalist based in Madrid, the former editor-in-chief of El País's English edition. Welcome to Today in Focus. Now, first things first, who is Pedro Sanchez?

3:06Guy Hedgecoe:Well, Pedro Sánchez is a trained economist. He's someone who worked his way up through the Spanish Socialist Party. And then he became prime minister in 2018. The Socialists become Spain's 7th PM since the return of democracy and the first to take office after a no-confidence vote. Quite soon after that, it became clear that he had a pretty progressive agenda in many areas. For example, when it came to feminist reforms or reforms to promote the rights of LGBTQ people. And he was very committed to the green economy as well. And so he starts to be seen much more as a fairly strident left wing figure, which I suppose at the time was quite unusual in Europe.

3:52Pedro Sánchez:And for people who don't know him or what he looks like, what he sounds like, you know, if you imagine that, you know, Trump is described as sort of this orange, perma-tanned guy with a toupee, incredibly bellicose. How would you describe Sanchez?

4:03Guy Hedgecoe:I suppose one of the most eye-catching things about Sanchez is he's good-looking. And many people would say we haven't had many particularly good-looking prime ministers in Spain in the democratic era. He's very suave as well. He looks very much at ease in front of the camera. He seems comfortable when he's communicating. That sets him apart, for example, from Mariano Rajoy, his immediate predecessor, who was very awkward. Sanchez speaks very good English. He's the first Spanish prime minister to speak good English. Thank you very much. Good morning. I've come to Munich to meet with friends and allies.

4:39Guy Hedgecoe:So, you know, on the international stage, he looks very much at ease as well. You could argue that his looks at times have even worked against him. People call him El Guapo, you know, the handsome one. And they almost use that as a weapon against him to sort of suggest that he's a bit vacuous.

4:55Pedro Sánchez:Right.

4:56Guy Hedgecoe:But I think overall, it probably hasn't done him all that much harm.

4:59Pedro Sánchez:So, as you said, he's served as prime minister since 2018, been head of the country's Socialist Workers Party. Charming, suave, handsome, all that stuff. Guy, how has he actually done in the job?

5:11Guy Hedgecoe:Well, it all depends on who you talk to, because Spanish politics, it's so divided and so polarized. It was before Pedro Sánchez became prime minister. And I think that has a lot to do with the reforms he's pushed through, whether it's feminist reforms or the green transition, or, for example, being really the first Spanish prime minister to tackle thoroughly the issue of historical memory in terms of the legacy of the dictatorship of Francisco Franco. He's really gone for those issues pretty head on. And that has drawn a massive backlash from the right, who suggests that he's deliberately trying to divide the country, deepening existing divisions.

5:52Guy Hedgecoe:I think the left would say that he simply made necessary reforms. One of the issues which has really set him apart has been immigration. He has made the argument that Spain needs immigrants. Its economy, its social security system, its pensions will need a large influx of migrants contributing to the economy in order to sustain the Spanish state. At the beginning of April, his government is beginning a legalization process, a mass legalization of undocumented migrants, which is expected to benefit at least half a million undocumented migrants and quite possibly up to a million or so. So that obviously makes him something of an outlier in Europe, because even in the UK, Keir Starmer isn't talking about immigration in those terms.

6:38Pedro Sánchez:Some say we've gone too far, that we're going against the current. But I would like to ask you, when did recognising rights become something radical? When did empathy become something exceptional? Spain is, above all, a welcoming country. And this is the path we choose. Dignity, community and justice.

7:01Guy Hedgecoe:However, he has had a lot of problems, I suppose, over the last year or two years in particular, in terms of corruption scandals. There has been a judicial investigation by a judge into his wife, Begonia Gomez, into her business affairs. so far no charges have been brought against her and there is a feeling certainly among many on the left that the judge who is carrying out this investigation is doing it for political motives because so far he hasn't been able to bring anything concrete against her but Pedro Sanchez's brother David Sanchez is due to go on trial in a few weeks over allegations of using his brother's influenced to get a job.

7:43Guy Hedgecoe:Also, two very senior figures in the Socialist Party are both facing allegations of running a graft scheme, and they have both been in custody.

7:54Pedro Sánchez:It's quite a messy political situation for him at home. And as you've said, he's quite polarising within the country itself. But Guy, just how popular is he and has he been?

8:04Guy Hedgecoe:Well, the polling reveals that he's doing okay in polls. He's doing better than the opposition leader Alberto Nunez-Ferro, and he's doing better than the far-right leader Santiago Abascal as well. So he's doing okay, but what polls don't reflect is how much of a figure of hate he has become for the right. And the right believes that he's running this sort of government that's bogged down by corruption. They've been saying that he's using the National Statistics Institute, which carries out polling, and it's been carrying out these skewed polls in his favour. So they say that he's been using institutions in his favour.

8:46Pedro Sánchez:Guy, he has been making waves outside of Spain for taking pretty robust positions on global affairs over the last couple of years. What kind of things has he been saying?

8:56Guy Hedgecoe:One of the most obvious issues that he's spoken out about has been the issue of Gaza. And very soon after Israel began its military response to the October 7th attacks, He was being quite vocal about warning Israel against violating human rights.

9:13Pedro Sánchez:The whole world is shocked at the image that we see coming from Gaza every day. The number of Palestinians killed is truly unbearable.

9:26Guy Hedgecoe:And I think quite early on, he was one of, if not the most vocal European leader in that sense. And then in 2024, along with Ireland and Norway, the Spanish government acknowledged Palestinian statehood.

9:39Pedro Sánchez:With this decision, Spain joins the more than 140 countries that already recognize Palestine. This is a historic decision that has a single goal, to contribute to achieving peace between Israelis and Palestinians.

9:55Guy Hedgecoe:That was before a number of other European countries followed suit. So his government sort of liked to feel that it was taking a lead on that issue. And then that clash with Israel has really intensified. And he was actually encouraging Spanish protesters to come out onto the streets and protest against Israel last year as well. And that angered Israel even more.

10:19Pedro Sánchez:the u.s has carried out a large-scale strike against venezuela and its leader president nicolas maduro who has been along with his wife captured and flown out of the country

10:32Guy Hedgecoe:on other issues for example when the united states carried out the military incursion into venezuela he and his government spoke out against that saying that it was breaching international law as well. The future of Venezuela has to be decided by the people of Venezuela, of course,

10:50Pedro Sánchez:with the commitment of the international community.

10:54Guy Hedgecoe:He's spoken out in favour of Greenland sovereignty or Denmark's sovereignty over Greenland and against the United States' ambitions when it comes to Greenland. And also the area where tensions between Sanchez and Trump have sort of really arisen has been defense spending as a NATO country, because around the middle of last year, Sanchez refused to agree to Trump's calls for NATO members to raise their defense spending to 5 % of GDP. He refused outright, said that Spain had to spend that money on hospitals and schools and so on. And that really is what seems to have riled Trump.

11:37Pedro Sánchez:It started when every European nation, at my request, paid 5%, which they should be doing. And everybody was enthusiastic about it, Germany, everybody. And Spain didn't do it. Well, they didn't have the greatest relationship before the US attacked Iran. And then you have Sanchez making even bolder statements. I mean, Guy, can you tell me about what he said about that war?

12:00Guy Hedgecoe:It seems that Sanchez and his government were prepared for the eventuality of the United States attacking Iran because they came out very soon after the attack to say that they disagreed with it and they didn't believe that it was based on international law. Now, Sanchez also refused to allow the United States to use two military bases in the south of Spain. These are bases that the United States has traditionally used over the decades.

12:29Pedro Sánchez:And now Spain actually said that we can't use their bases. And that's all right. We could use their base if we want. We could just fly in and use it. Nobody's going to tell us not to use it, but we don't have to. But they were unfriendly.

12:43Guy Hedgecoe:That really angered Trump. And that was where Trump spoke out and said that he was going to break off all ties with Spain, was what he said at the time, although it wasn't clear what that meant. Rather more specifically, he said, we're going to cut off all trade with Spain.