Euros 25: Can the Lionesses bring it home again?

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:09Today, England's women have made the finals of the Euros once again. But will they ever enjoy the same money and respect as the men?

0:27It was the 85th minute of the semi-final of the women's Euros on Tuesday and things were not looking good for England Need a swipe from somewhere, England not got long, the clock is ticking Italy were heading for a 1-0 victory when the manager, Sabrina Vigerman, decided to make a last-ditch substitution So it's over to the youngsters to rescue this for England. Inside the stadium in Geneva, fans held their breath. Watching at home, Guardian Women's Football Weekly presenter Faye Carruthers thought it might be all over for the Lionesses. Hampton wants to get on with it and get England up the field.

1:07England were completely running out of time and it's almost as if time stood still. Two minutes left to go of the seven minutes added. to just send it forward. That's easy for Kambiaghi to clear away. And Michel Adjiman, who'd been brought on to make an impact, brought on to cause chaos, did exactly that. They're going to send it in, terrific ball. Doggy was fills it. Adjiman!

1:36That's well done for England. And Giuliani, the Italian goalkeeper, had been saving everything, but she couldn't have saved that. It was a fantastic finish. A young player once again has the composure to take the touch and put the ball in the back of the net. The celebrations afterwards, knowing that England had another half an hour effectively to drag themselves into the final. Oh, it's spine tingling. I don't know how they do it.

2:09On Sunday, England will face world champion Spain in the final. Another victory will cement the lionesses in the nation's heart. But how close are they to enjoying the same pay, conditions and attention as the men? From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pidd. Today in Focus, are women close to getting a fair game in football?

2:34Faye Carruthers, welcome to Today in Focus. Thanks for having me. You are the presenter of our sister podcast, Women's Football Weekly, so you've had an incredibly busy July. But before we indulge ourselves with some very Anglo-centric chats about the prospects of the England team in the final on Sunday, can you just sketch out for us how big has the women's game become, particularly compared with the men's? I mean, it depends how you define big. It's most definitely exploded since the Lionesses' 2022 European Championship win. But it's the growth that's so important here. You can't really compare it to men's football in so many ways, because the gap in attendance and revenue is massive.

3:16But the women's game is experiencing substantial growth, substantial development. You know, the investments that are coming in, the increased media coverage, growing fan interest are massively helping that. But some people might not know there's a hundred year time lag, essentially, to catch up for women's football because it was banned by the FA over a century ago when it was actually frequently attracting bigger crowds than the men's games. But I was looking back actually ahead of this figures from Deloitte's 2025 review of football finance. And in the 23-24 season, WSL clubs, that's women's super league clubs, which is the top league here in England, generated aggregate revenue of£65 million.

4:02Now, that was actually a 34 % increase on the season before. But the difference in money, to give you an example, so£65 million for the WSL, the Premier League generated an aggregate revenue of£6.3 billion in that same season. So when you're saying how big is the women's game now, there's obviously a lot of caveats with that. And also, the Premier League has smaller growth, just 4%, whereas the women's was 34%. So you can see the difference in growth and potential in the women's game. But if we're talking about money, there's a huge difference at the moment. And for people who've been watching the Euros, watching all of these amazing players, are they all professional now?

4:46Or have some of them still got part-time jobs? It depends which leagues you're looking at. So the WSL is fully professional, but you only need to go back to Euro 2017. So how many years is that? Eight years. And there weren't any fully professional women's leagues in Europe but there are now more than 3 ,000 full-time female players across the continent. So the professionalisation that's coming into the game is really important, making a huge difference but obviously that takes investment. But you're now seeing young girls having the potential to be a professional footballer which is something, you know, just a few years ago was not visible or possible to them.

5:27I think I, like many listeners, I guess to my shame a little bit, only really woke up to women's football in 2022 when the Lionesses won the Euros. England have won a major trophy for the first time ever. And it was just such a big national moment, wasn't it? There were stories of little girls all over the country being inspired. and my own stepdaughter was 12 then and we watched the final. She didn't even seem to be watching it. She was making friendship bracelets with her cousin with her back to the telly. But somehow she was imbued with the spirit of football and she suddenly became a fanatic.

6:01She was quoting football stats at me. She joined a football team. It was really quite something. How important was 2022 for the women's game, particularly in England? Enormous. We go back to the visibility point again. If you can see it, you can be it. It's such a cliche. However, it's very, very true. And watching the women on the pitch during that tournament, but particularly in the final and how they reacted in that final, the raw emotion of that final, the disbelief almost with it, you couldn't help but be carried on this incredible wave. and look I'm 45 years old now we're going back to the 80s and school playgrounds where the boys played football but I wasn't allowed to play I was the only girl at my best friend Gary's five-a-side football party aged seven and apparently hacked all the boys to bits girls just didn't play football or certainly there wasn't the availability for them to do that there wasn't the coaching they weren't encouraged to do it so now all of a sudden you you fast forward to the incredible numbers of people that watched the European Championship final in their living rooms or listened to it on the radio or were lucky enough to be at Wembley.

7:20And all of a sudden, you actually are inspiring a generation, which is what the Lionesses talked about. And they've done that because the number of women and girls playing football is something like 56 % higher than it was before that tournament. And the season following that trophy lift, actually 1500 new teams were registered in in england i mean obviously it helped that it was on home soil without a doubt but you know it did inspire a generation and so many more women who'd been deterred from playing football like i was are now playing it i mean i think we'd probably both agree that the road to equality it has not been a smooth one necessarily for the women and and many listeners will remember what happened a couple of years ago after spain won the final of the world Cup and the captain, Jenny Hermoso, what should have been the pinnacle of her career, found that moment completely overshadowed after she was kissed on the lips by this guy, Louis Rubiales.

8:16I felt disrespected. I think it was a moment that tainted one of the happiest days of my life. He was ultimately convicted of sexual assault, but it felt like a sort of symbol at the time of women's fight for equality on and off the pitch. And that felt so far away. I just wonder when you reflect on that now, how big a moment was it and has it forced a change in the women's sport, do you think? It was enormous. Excuse my Spanish pronunciation because it's going to be terrible. But Sia Carbo is the title of a Netflix documentary and what the Spanish players call it. It's over is what that means.

8:50The kiss that changed Spanish football. And it did change Spanish football and Spanish football needed changing. The fact that he still denied sexual assault and that that was inappropriate was quite unbelievable. But Jenny Hermoso and all her teammates, he took that incredible sporting moment, the biggest sporting moment of their careers, winning the World Cup. He took that away from them by putting all the attention negatively on his behavior. what is quite hard to believe in so many ways is that the case only reached its conclusion in February of this year so literally around six months ago but change has happened something good has come out of something awful there has been a change within the Spanish Federation not whole sale changes but small changes and when you've got such toxicity it does take time to to change a lot.

9:48But conditions, trips, nutrition, training, all of the Spanish players have reported that that has improved. That's something that they'd been fighting for for such a long time, that professionalism that they weren't afforded. I can give you a good example, actually, which is in that Netflix documentary, which is former Spain captain Sergio Ramos of the men's team asking Luis Rubiales for Hublot watches when the women would just literally wanted flight times that meant that they could get a decent night's sleep before big games. That's the difference we're talking about.

10:31Let's talk now about the England squad. And in 2022, this team or a version of it lifted the trophy, as we've already said, and their final was watched by 17.4 million people, which was the most watched women's game in UK television history. The following year, they reached the World Cup final against Spain and ultimately lost. How high were expectations for the England squad going into this contest? Very high. You know, this is an incredible team that since they've been coached by Serena Viegman, have, you know, hit extraordinary heights. And when you go on and win a major trophy like they did in 2022, obviously everybody thinks, you know, you should be then going and defending that trophy.

11:11in all honesty it's incredibly difficult and they've definitely done it the hard way but it is everybody expects them to do it or at least get to the final they got to the final against spain of the world cup while the favorites have fallen england have stood firm a strong will and an undarting belief england in to the world cup final for the very first time So that's three finals now, back to back. I think it's six semifinals now they've been to back to back. They are consistently hitting the peak. It's just about now consistently winning the trophies. As we've seen over the years, other teams do.

11:52So yeah, expectations most definitely are high. And that obviously comes with its own problems and scrutiny. But this team do not know how to give up. and they're going to be doing everything they can on Sunday to defend their European crown. And just to rewind a bit, so ahead of this tournament starting, there were lots of headlines about some of the most famous players from 2022 who either hadn't been picked or had ruled themselves out. Talk us through the sort of changes in the squad. Well, yeah, I mean, it wasn't the greatest start to a tournament in terms of preparations. Just before this tournament kicked off, Mary Earps, who was England's number one for such a long time and amazing goalkeeper.

12:38And, you know, one of the overarching memories you'll have of her is standing in her green kit on top of the press conference desk, stamping.

12:49But Mary Earps decided to retire. She'd effectively been told that she wouldn't be number one for this tournament and Hannah Hampton would be number one, who plays for Chelsea. and she decided that she was going to step away from the England team as a result of that. Frank Kirby also told she wouldn't be involved. She has had a lot of injuries and illness over the years and I think, you know, had she been picked, she'd have definitely gone, but we probably wouldn't have seen that much of her on the pitch. And then Millie Bright, who actually captained England in Australia in the World Cup in 2023 because Leah Williamson was out injured.

13:24She decided to step away and not go to the tournament for personal reasons. So huge players, big personalities, leaders in the camp, stepping away before they travelled out to Switzerland for this tournament. So the preparations weren't great, but at the same time, they've managed to forge ahead, get a brilliant team spirit with the players that are out there, and the team goes on. And for those listening who will watch their first game on Sunday when England reached the final. Can you just fill us in? How has England's tournament gone so far? Because there have been some pretty nail-biting matches, haven't there?

14:00Well, if you're only tuning in on the final, then well done. You've not had to have late nights like the rest of us have because England have made it very difficult for themselves. Let's put it that way. They were beaten by France in the opening game. Does blow it. England undone in the opener. a huge win for France. And they were in the group of death already, Group D, with the Netherlands in there as well. So everybody was thinking that their tournament wasn't even going to get them out of the group stages, the defence of their title. But they actually went on and beat the Netherlands by four goals to nil.

14:38A ruthless response to their opening day defeat by inflicting the heaviest tournament defeat on the Dutch. in the second group game, beat Wales. And winners over Wales by six goals to one. And then Sweden, who are, you know, always get to the latter end of tournaments and had had a really good tournament so far. Sweden proving too much for the champions right now. They were 2-0 down against them and it looking like they were going out. And there's bronze! And there's one! but they equalised late in the second half two goals in two minutes

15:23to take it to extra time then it went to penalties they had four spot kicks saved by the Swedish keeper but Sweden missed more would you believe it was one of the worst penalty shootouts I think I've ever watched the worst and the best all in one Holmberg who has to score for Sweden she can't and England But ultimately England went through. And then Italy on Tuesday night, they were two minutes from going out of the tournament. Late substitutions, which everybody sitting on their sofa or sitting in the stadium was shouting at Serena Vigman to bring these impact players on earlier. But 19-year-old Michel Adjumang scored the equaliser against Sweden to take it to extra time, did exactly the same against Italy.

16:08Michel Adjumang, take a bow! before Chloe Kelly who else you know she'd scored the winner in the 2022 final against Germany scored from the rebound her penalty was saved by the way what about this big save follow up what were you worried about what were you worried about and that was two minutes from the end of extra time just absolutely incredible the drama the team never know how to give up and that kind of resilience is what hopefully is going to take them to defend their crown against Spain on Sunday. And going into the tournament some of the players were pretty well known I'm thinking of Beth Mead, Chloe Kelly who you just mentioned.

16:55I'll always think of her whipping her top off, exposing her sports bra, getting told off for it, kind of windmilling her shirt over her head. Enjoy.

17:07After scoring the kind of the crucial goal in that 2022 final, who would you say is the star of the squad this time around? Chloe Kelly is a star, first of all, and I was behind the goal when she did that. Pitch side, shouting, yellow card, yellow card, put your shirt back on. I was trying to take the iconic moment away from her because I was worried she was going to end up getting sent off. Chloe Kelly's been fantastic in this tournament as well, but Michelle Adjumang has been the standout. Michelle Adjumang! Say Michelle Adjumang! 19 years old. She only made her debut for England in April. She scored after 40 seconds in that debut and it was an absolute screamer of a goal.

17:48She was a wildcard pick, really. I mean, a fantastic wildcard pick, but everybody was quite surprised to see her being taken to Switzerland. but she's had the most incredible impact off the bench. She's such a humble character as well. It was wonderful actually watching Beth Mead and Alex Greenwood pushing her to the crowd. Go and take your plaudits. You know, we're only in the final because of you. Go and soak this up. To see my team celebrating with me, most of these girls I haven't even known for more than two months but it kind of shows the togetherness that we have as a team. Oh, sorry. You know, and the fight of the heart, the team spirit that we have.

18:25to see everyone celebrating me like that. You know, it's a great team moment and it's definitely going to live in my heart forever. But yeah, she's been a standout performer. Three goals in four England caps is quite something. And Michelle Adjumann obviously is a black player. And I remember last time round, there was quite a big discussion, wasn't there, about why the England team didn't seem to echo the diversity of the men's team or indeed England as a whole. There were lots of players with long blonde ponytails last time round. Has the squad become more diverse, do you think, this time? Yeah, but it's still not representative.

19:02And the problem has always been access to clubs, access to teams, access to training, pitches, coaches. But that is changing and it is improving. It's just going to take time for the talent to start to arrive at the senior level. But Michelle is a great example of finding that talent. She was six when she joined Arsenal. She's been on loan at Watford and Brighton. And this is the thing, you know, there are, I think, around 70 emerging talent centres for young girls now in England, which are there to provide more accessibility and more inclusivity for young players in the game. And the FA also has a Discover My Talent programme as well.

19:41They want it to make sure that any talented girl from any backgrounds can be referred onto the England radar. that's always great in PR speak reality harder but you have to start from the bottom to do that but there are some numbers that in 2023 the number of black Asian and minority ethnic girls participating at under 17 level has jumped from 5 % to 36 % in the last five years so that is progress but as I say it is just going to take time and yet in the middle of this current tournament The England defender Jess Carter announced that she was stepping away from social media because she'd received so much racist abuse.

20:22The defender wrote,

20:36Tell me a bit about that and how the team is going to confront racism going forward. So they started to confront it by refusing to take the knee. ahead of their game against Italy. The issue has been that there hasn't been a massive amount of change since players started taking the knee. You know, it's standing up for all forms of discrimination, but their point was it's still happening. Therefore, it's not having the impact that it had. But I guess there are those who would argue that by stopping taking the knee, they're essentially capitulating to the abuse. They wanted to make sure it was a visible representation of the fact that they didn't believe it was having an impact anymore.

21:17They want real change. Look, it's a systemic problem. It's not just formed on the football pitch. What's the most ridiculous is the kind of people that have levelled this abuse towards Jess, you know, anonymously behind keyboards, will have been the same people cheering when Michelle Del Adjumang has gone and got us through this tournament and ultimately to a final. That's what just makes no sense whatsoever. But Jess's statement was really powerful. She was the first to admit she's perhaps not put the best performances in and found this tournament tricky on the pitch. That doesn't give anybody the right to abuse her for the colour of her skin off the pitch or on it, by the way.

22:06And so, yes, not taking the knee takes a stand. But look, this England team don't give up. If they want something, they take it to the highest powers. Equal pay, push it. Stand up for racism. Actually be going to the social media companies to get real change, real action, and not just these platitudes that we seem to be getting. They will be pushing for that and they all stand together on that. It's a very strong collective. coming up what chance of an England win on Sunday

22:53let's look ahead to the final on Sunday England as we say are going to face Spain the world champions who's the favorite and which player should we be looking out for Spain are the favourites, without a doubt I know, but they did beat England in the World Cup final and they were by far the superior team in that World Cup final in 2023 and England have, they've not scraped through because you make your own luck and the way they've done it has been incredible but actually Spain have come through a lot of adversity themselves the Ballon d 'Or winner, Aitana Bonmati actually contracted viral meningitis just before this tournament and we didn't think she was going to be available to play.

23:34She scored the winner last night against Germany. So, you know, they've had their own issues coming into the tournament. But there's so many Spain players. Alexia Puteas, incredible. Esther Gonzalez, amazing. Caldente as well. So many. They've just got quality. Salma Paraluelo. Every time I say we're done, I feel like another one comes to my mind. They are just a scintillating watch, Spain. And England are going to have to be at their defensive best, which arguably they've not been in this tournament in order to beat them. However, you know, we talked earlier on about the road to the final England have had.

24:11They've been almost out on so many occasions and they're still fighting. So you can't ever write them off. And what do you think the impact will be if England wins versus if England loses in terms of the future of the team and the future of the women's game in England? In terms of the future of the team, we're going forwards with this team. It's constantly evolving. There's some incredible young players coming through the ranks, as we've talked about already. I don't think it will hugely affect the team and the collective and what they want to do. It's very difficult. Because of the win previously, the mainstream media obviously think anything short of defending the title is failure.

24:54But you can't see it like that because just getting to another major final, and we've seen it with the men, two major European finals back to back, lost both of them. You start to get a narrative around you. I don't think we're at that point with the Lionesses at the moment purely because of the way they've got through to this final. the fact that they got to the World Cup final in between these two European finals, winning always creates change. It always brings a momentum with it. So yes, if they don't win, that may be less impactful. But if they do, then expect a similar push, drive, investment, excitement that came from the 2022 victory, which is always more special because it was the first, essentially.