Ghosting, breadcrumbing, one-night stands: are we done with dating apps?

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:09Today, how dating apps lost their shine.

0:23Eleanor, who is one of the producers on our show, came into work the other day with a story about her latest adventure on London's dating scene. So I was in Charlton coming back from the Lido. It's very suburban. There's no one really around. This guy walks towards me, noticed him looking at me, but didn't think anything of it. And then there was this beat as we walked past each other. And through my headphones, I heard him say, excuse me, how old are you? Right. And I was like, that is seriously weird. But I will answer honestly. So, you know, despite being a bit confused, I was like, I'm 29.

0:58how old are you? And he said, I'm 24. And I was thinking, this is the weirdest interaction I've ever had with another person. At which point he goes, I'm really sorry to do this, but can I get your number? And I am dating, you know, he was kind of cute. And I was like, yeah, go on. You know, I could have changed a digit, but I was like, to hell with it. I'll give him my number. So I come home and I think, oh my God, someone just asked me out on the street. Like how amazing. Also, I was walking back from swimming, so I wasn't exactly full glam. I had goggle marks and my hair was totally wet and up on the top of my head in a messy bun.

1:36Obviously no makeup. And I absolutely, I'm sure, reeked of chlorine. So I was like, if I can pull like this, then, you know, things are looking good. And I agreed to go on a date with him. He was a Gen Z, so he suggested a coffee date. And within about 10 minutes, I knew that this wasn't going anywhere. to be completely honest I'd mainly gone for the thrill of being asked out in the street. Having said that though I did ask him when we were having this coffee how often he had done this. I think I was hoping that he would say that he was so struck by me that I was the first person he'd ever asked out in the street but unfortunately for me he actually said he'd been doing it for about three or four months and that I was just the first person who had agreed to go on a date but yeah he said you know I'm on the apps and they're just not working for me I don't get matches or like not matching with the people that I would want to match with so I just decided to start going up to people I found attractive in the street and ask them out and you know anecdotally that also seems to have a low success rate but I think it shows how tired everyone is about dating apps, myself included.

2:51Eleanor and her plucky suitor are not the only ones tiring of the swiping life. About 1.4 million people in the UK have left the online dating scene in the past 12 months, with almost 80 % of Gen Zs claiming to have dating app burnout. So is the flirting moving back to real life in the pubs and streets? Or are people giving up looking for love altogether? From The Guardian, I'm Helen Pidd. Today in Focus. What has gone wrong with dating apps? Kitty Drake, welcome back to Today in Focus. Hello, it's lovely to be here. So I always say that you have the most interesting job at The Guardian because you matchmake the couples for The Guardian's blind date column and you also interview people about their sex lives for the This Is How We Do It column.

3:42and recently you found yourself back in the dating world yourself. I was going on the apps for the first time. I'd just come out of a three-year relationship and he was the man who I thought, you know, it was going to be it forever with. So it was a bit of a shock. It was a bit of a shock. And how often, when you're setting up Guardian Blind Dators, so for those who haven't seen the column, it's every week in the Guardian Saturday magazine. two people come together and you you are the one who decides that they could be the right person for each other and it's got a very successful track record but how often do your perspective data say that they are so fed up with the dating apps and that's why they're writing to you well I've noticed it kind of in the last two years the first line of every email I get from anyone who's under 45 is I'm writing to you because I can't cope with the apps anymore I've given up on the apps.

4:38And honestly, when my long term relationship was breaking down, every day I would go into work and I would start by reading these emails. And I would think in the back of my mind, I'd think, I better make this work because it doesn't work. It looks so bleak out there. So I really, I honestly think that I held on to my relationship for longer than I would have done because I was presented with this constant narrative about how the apps weren't working. And so your relationship unfortunately did break down. Hopefully in the long run that will be the right decision for both of you. But how did you find it taking the plunge?

5:13Actually, I loved it. I found it extremely liberating if you've been in a relationship which hasn't made you very happy and then you suddenly feel that you've got this huge kind of wave of opportunity coming towards you. It's a bit scary, but it is fun. Give us a little history lesson. When were dating apps invented and when would you say the kind of high watermark was for dating app usage? So there have been matchmaking sites online since the internet was born. But I think they had a certain amount of stigma around them, particularly for younger people. But it was in 2012 when Tinder exploded onto the scene that at least straight people started to meet people predominantly on dating apps.

6:03Hinge was born in 2013 and Bumble was born in 2014. And that's where the woman has to say hi first. there has been a kind of accepted wisdom among people my age and younger that most people will meet their partners through internet dating and it's not a kind of embarrassing thing anymore necessarily for friends of mine who are gay and bi it's been completely revelatory because you can explore your sexuality in the privacy of your own home without fear of judgment without your friendship group looking on and you know my friendship group would look completely different if it hadn't been for tinder because my lesbian friends all their girlfriends were met through tinder so i think it's good to acknowledge how much it's broadened horizons for particular minorities yeah i mean full disclosure i met my husband on a dating app nine years ago but at the time, I remember feeling a little bit sheepish about it.

7:07But what I liked about dating apps, what felt refreshing to me is how tailored they can be, how you can really filter for exactly what you're looking for. So by the time I met my husband, I'd been dating for a couple of years. I'd had lots of really bad experiences on apps. I'd been ghosted. I felt so disposable as a person. And so this was like my last ditch chance at going on the apps. And I thought, you know what, what's important to me? I want to meet somebody who rides bikes. I love cycling. I wanted to I wanted somebody I could go for nice bike rides with. And I thought, I'm going to be authentically myself.

7:39So I had a profile picture of me in a cycle helmet. And I have to say, I didn't get many matches, but I got one match from my now husband. I was also cycling in the snow in my picture. And he said, that's exactly the silly sort of thing that I would like to do. And the rest, as they say, is history. So I think there is a lot to be said about how tailored these sites can be. But also they allow you to just filter everybody to within an inch of their life and sort of commodify people, I think. Yeah, you did it right. You did it right. I think this is what I did wrong in my mid-twenties. I was trying to look cool and desirable on the app rather than saying what I actually liked.

8:18And then this time, well, actually, I showed my friends my dating app answers and one of my answers was, I go crazy for middle March. And my friend was like, no one's going to want to have sex with you if you put that. I think it's really good that you can express your interests and therefore filter for people who completely match those interests. But I do also think that's bad because I think there's something strange about the app, which is that you can be talking to one person. Maybe they've got a mullet and they work in film and then the conversation with them dries up and then you flick for another day.

9:00and somebody who looks almost identical starts talking to you and it's really strange because it does give you this feeling of unreality. If one doesn't work out, then you move on to the next. But I think that's quite liberating in a way because isn't that how dating has always worked? But it just used to be really depressing because you'd meet maybe three people you fancied in a year if you were lucky. Yeah, especially if you live in a small town, yeah. Three people who were single who you fancied would be like the best year ever and now you could do that in a week. You could do that in two days.

9:40There is some evidence, and not just anecdotal, that people are tiring of dating apps. Can you just talk us through what's going on in the dating app industry at the moment? So there's evidence to show that people are leaving the apps behind. 1.4 million people have left online dating in the past year in the UK. It feels like anecdotally people are wanting to leave the apps. They feel like they want to have more meet-cutes in person. That's definitely what friends of mine are saying to me. Tinder is the one that's experienced the biggest loss. They've lost more than half a million users since May 2023.

10:17But Bumble and Hinge have also been hit very hard. Bumble has lost 368 ,000 users and Hinge has lost 131 ,000 users. And actually, in June, Bumble laid off 30 % of its global staff. So in some ways, the dating apps are in a kind of financial crisis. What about some of the newer apps? I feel like I hear a lot about Field. It is a mixed picture because most of these apps, they use an algorithm to provide you with profiles of people who they think you would like to match with. Whereas dating apps like Field, it just presents you with everyone in the area who's available. And up for it. Yeah, exactly.

11:04So they're not kind of showing you people who they think you want to see. And that feels more kind of egalitarian in a way. But I think it's reflected in the fact that since 2022, Field has seen 30 % increase of users every single year. And it's kind of exploding in popularity. And I think that's because people are feeling pigeonholed and frustrated by being served the same person over and over again and feeling like they're being kind of forced into paying for a service, which is just narrowing down their options. And what do you think has gone wrong for so many people with the online dating model?

11:39Why do you think there's so much app fatigue at the moment? Well, what I hear from friends and what I see doing my work with the Blind Date Inbox is that people are made to feel disposable because they don't meet people in real life because you can talk to someone for weeks without ever meeting them or just a day very intensely. You know, and I myself, to be honest, I've done this as well. I've ghosted people. I've stopped talking to people because there's no consequences. You're not sitting opposite someone and feeling their hurt when you stop talking to them. You can just be completely anonymous and disappear.

12:09Like even on field, you don't even have to put your full name. People I speak to complain of breadcrumbing. So somebody just popping in and being like, hey, every now and again, but never intending to meet you and just kind of keeping you strung along. Ghosting, where they speak to you and then they just completely disappear. Then one night stands. So you meet them and they behave as though they want to be with you more than one night. but then they just only want to have sex with you once. But then again, you know, all of this stuff. I was breadcrumbed in 2013 or 2011. I was ghosted, you know, by people who actually in real life.

12:52Yeah, by people who I actually went to university with and who had sex with me and then never wanted to see me again. There are more real world consequences, aren't there? Like you might have a shared mate who'll say to this person, that wasn't cool. I agree with you. Of course, there are more consequences. But also, I think we underestimate the fact that it was also very public rejection before the apps. There's something quite nice about it being traceless, like somebody doesn't want to talk to you again. OK, that's painful in private. But it's also quite nice that nobody has to know.

13:24I just wonder, you know, we're having this conversation as two women. Do you think that there's a particular problem that women are having with dating apps? I hear it all the time, like, where are the eligible men? I think particularly in your 30s, that can be a question that if you're a straight woman, you kind of ask yourself and you talk with your mates about quite a lot. It just seems that there's so many amazing women and a real dearth of men. Yes. And I do hear this all the time. But I also have to push back on it because I don't think it's true. And this is what I see a lot with the blind date inbox as well.

13:55Women write in and they say, you know, there's no interesting, nice, kind men who just want to go on a date and see where things go. And then I set these women up with an interesting, kind man who wants to see where things go. And they don't like him because he's not six foot. I feel like women in many ways have it badly when it comes to dating. For example, you know, we've got the biological clock. Yeah. Then men start wanting to date women who are kind of 10, 15 years younger. And, you know, I think we can all agree that men have the power in this world. but I do also think that there's a real danger of oversimplifying it and if you say to yourself like I've had conversations with friends and they said oh there's no good men on the dating apps they're all pigs you know it's not true we're all human beings I've met many men on the dating apps who want to have a nice relationship and I've probably treated them as disposable right because there's always going to be somebody else another profile to yeah and maybe ultimately you know it's that thing of like nobody wants to be a member of a club that would have them as a member like there's a kind of you know women are also guilty of not wanting to commit or not wanting to settle in any sort of way having unrealistic expectations being impatient I've had women come to me and say you know he wasn't ready to commit after the second date and so therefore there's no time for him he's toxic and and actually we need to give people a bit of grace if we think about it so negatively then the negative will happen more because we go into it with an attitude of this man's going to let me down men are all rubbish yeah this sort of hetero pessimism I think it's called yeah exactly it's very comforting to sit around a bitch with your girlfriends about how men are all shit and I do this with my flatmate and then I see her and me discard men on the apps who seem really lovely just because they've got a picture of them with a guitar you know or if They're 5 '10".

15:59It does something to your brain, I think, the dating app, of knowing that there are so many options out there. But actually, it's an illusion there aren't that many options out there. And you have to settle. At some point, you have to change what your expectations are and let people surprise you. And I think I see a lot of women complain about dating apps and then write off men who are on paper everything that they want. Do you think men are having just as hard a time as women? it's hard to say who's having a harder time and maybe it's unhelpful anyway but for example doing the blind date column I often get men who are of a certain age maybe 50 and above and they write to me and they say oh the funny thing about me is I look a lot younger than my age and I actually only want to be matched with people 40 and below oh oh my god a couple of times I sent back an email and I said, I'm just curious, you're 55.

16:57Why is it that you only want to be matched with people under 48? And this man sent me back an email. I was shaking with rage as I wrote this email. And this man sent me back an email saying, I'm just curious, would you ask a woman who wrote into you why she only wants to be matched with people 5 '11 and above? And honestly, it made me think. And it makes me sick that that man only wanted to date younger women. But, you know, it's hard with dating. It's like there are preferences. We do fancy who we fancy, but we have to try and expand that. And do you think that there's anything in the fact that some of these dating apps have changed the way they operate, I guess, as they come under increasing pressure to make profit?

17:41Yeah, absolutely. So the apps are making less money. For example, Bumble's share price has fallen from$75 in its heyday to$11. So they've got more aggressive with their premium models. On Hinge, you pay a monthly subscription, but then they organise a group of standouts. So maybe 12 men a day for me every day who are significantly more attractive by traditional models. What that must do to their egos, man. Yeah. So they're the pick of the crop. They're the pick of the crop. And it's a really superficial thing, but perhaps their jobs are more impressive and their pictures are more attractive. It may all be kind of good editing and good lighting, but they look more desirable.

18:28So you have to pay to send these men a rose. Right, so it's not just a case of swiping right to express your interest in one of these hunks. You actually have to cough up for a virtual rose to send him. And then all that does is allow you to be able to send him a message, which he may then ignore. Nice. These apps lock you into something where you pay to send more attractive people roses, but actually the people who receive the roses don't then match with you because they think that you're desperate because you've paid to send them a rose. Or they're drowning in roses. Or they're drowning in roses.

19:01And so you're kind of locked into paying more for a more expensive model, but you don't get any results. And so actually, there's been a proposed class action suit brought against Match Group, which owns the most popular apps like Tinder, Hinge, Match.com, OkCupid. And the class action proposed that the company, I'm quoting here, gamifies its platform to transform users into gamblers locked in a search for psychological rewards that Match makes elusive on purpose. Yeah, because I guess they don't make money if you meet your perfect person on the first few swipes. Exactly, and Hinge's tagline is designed to be deleted, which is quite a clever tagline because it makes you feel like you're definitely going to find your match.

19:51But, of course, these apps have an incentive to keep you paying for the subscription model and keep you single, essentially.

20:07And given that there seems to be such growing and widespread dissatisfaction with the apps, have you noticed a move back to offline dating, dating in real life? Well, I've seen it very much so in my day-to-day working life with many more people applying to Blind Date. I've seen a massive uptick in applicants, yes. And again, they are always leading with the idea that they're sick of the apps and they can't cope. I wouldn't say that I'm noticing more people chatting each other up in the bar but maybe I'm not going to enough bars but I have seen you know there's been a rise of apps like for example Thursday where it's designed to make you go out and meet someone every Thursday and there are other apps which are designed to kind of minimize the online chatting and I'm seeing a rise of singles nights and there's also been...

20:59Very 80s, but a singles night. I heard about speed dating coming back. Yes, and also group dating, an app which makes you meet 10 people for dinner and then you see who you get on with. Oh, that makes me feel nervous. It'd be like being last picked at the football team, right? If everybody else pairs up and it's you and one other person left at the table, like... I know, this is why I kind of like the dating apps because nobody gets to see you fail except for yourself. coming up even if you've uninstalled the apps could they have changed the way you look at love

21:45Kitty Drake:do you think that dating apps have fundamentally changed the way that we approach our pursuit of love and and relationships i think so yes i think I think having the illusion that there are limitless options is both a blessing and a curse because it is an illusion. There aren't limitless options. But I also think that knowing that there are options out there, I do think that dating apps have given us this amazing gift. being able to meet people who are completely out of your life experience or out of your field that is amazing but I do also think it's done something strange to our brain so we feel that we can find someone who's almost exactly like the person who just rejected us or who wasn't quite good enough for us and we can keep searching forever and then you have the kind of thing of oh you know people weren't so disappointed by love in the days before dating apps but I mean And you just have to read any 19th century novel or any love literature ever.

22:49You know, Anna Karenina, War and Peace, Middlemarch. People have always been disappointed and frustrated by falling in love. And it's always been hard. It's the human condition. Falling in love, being rejected, being hurt. It doesn't change. But now I just see it as you have more opportunities, sure, for rejection. But you also have more opportunities for success. and I think that's liberating. I like to believe that not only that there's someone for everyone but there's like loads of people for everyone. We live on a very big planet. Dating apps do open up the world to us even though it can be incredibly demoralising and hurtful sometimes experiences on these.

23:32But let's end on a cheerful note. The blind date column has resulted in several marriages and children over the years. So traditional methods of matchmaking does seem to work. You're behind a lot of these unions as the matchmaker. What do you think is the secret to dating both on and off the apps? Big question. I think the secret to dating, it seems, from the people I've matched successfully, is having an open mind. And then I think the secret to dating online is to not expect every single person you match with to be a potential partner and just do it like you're having these new experiences. So I guess, again, it's keeping your expectations low, like expect the worst, hope for the best.

24:23Or alternatively, I don't know, maybe it's me. Maybe I'm just saying this because it worked for me. But I think maybe people should just dare to dream that there is somebody who will love them for who they are with all their idiosyncrasies and their weird hobbies. and that you should hold out and not pretend to be somebody that you're not. That is better. Can I do mine again? That was too depressing, my one. That was Kitty Drake. You can assess her matchmaking skills in The Guardian Saturday magazine each week in the Blind Date feature. And that is all for today. This episode was produced by Eleanor Biggs, Lucy Hough and Olivia Lee and was presented by me, Helen Pidd.

24:59Sound design was by Jan Sigsworth and the executive producer was Sammy Kent. We'll be back on Monday.