Reform donations scandal: the final blow for Farage? – The Latest

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:10Hi, it's Lucy here. Just before we start, Peter Walker, our wonderful senior political correspondent, was recording right from the centre of Reform UK's party conference. So there's a bit more hubbub and background noise than usual, but bear with us and we hope you enjoy the episode. The kind of rule of thumb is the voters don't care until they suddenly do. There's this mysterious moment where you get cut through. I was thrilled to be able to pick up the tab for the calls that you had. Yeah, that was great. And the third call, it worked. Boom. If hypothetically there's been police action, someone close to Nigel Farage, arrested or even charged, that would be a big thing.

0:48Let me be clear, the party has done nothing wrong. Taken no illegal money. From the Guardians today in Focus, this is The Latest with me, Lucy Hoth. So the night before the 2026 Reform UK Party Conference, a major investigation dropped involving an undercover reporter exposing malpractice related to polling and overseas donations. Peter Walker, you are our senior political correspondent. You are at Reform party conference where you appear to be in the content creator studios. So are you excited about your new career as an influencer? I'm now officially a content creator, yeah. Peter, let's start with this investigation because it's quite complex.

1:36What are the key findings? This was one that was done by a journalism collector called Verbatim, who shared the footage with Channel 4 News, who did their own checks and then broadcast it. And it's basically, they went undercover and tried to tempt Reform UK into doing two things, one of which was to commission polling, which was then given to newspapers and not billed as being coming from Reform UK, which was polling favourable to the party, which took place. And this verbatim group who were posing as the British-based son of a wealthy US business person who was sympathetic to the party, They paid for calling about£30 ,000.

2:17So we're going to run this 18k plus per hour. And then I asked, maybe somebody I could think of who they could send an invoice to. But that would just be a suggestion or not. Like, it's not an in-no-rate campaign, party contributions. Then the more serious stuff is that the person posing as the British-based son and then an actor posing as the US businessman, held talks with some senior people in the forum, including Nigel Farage, about what appeared to be the idea of giving a donation to them which would be ultimately from the US businessman that channels through his British-based son, which would be getting round bans on foreign donations in a way that the former head of the Electoral Commission believed he would potentially break the law.

3:08Dad will send the money to me and then as soon as that's done, all of those conversations are had, then the money's available. So, no, we... Okay, so that's all pretty shocking stuff. And in what ways could this potentially be breaking electoral rules? Well, at the moment, we don't know. And it's important to point out that reform are saying that there is no evidence that they broke rules, even though Dan Dukes and James Orr, who... Dan Dukes is Nigel Farage's long-time white-hand man, and then James Orr, who says Cambridge University academic, who's head of policy for reforming care. They've both lost their posts.

3:46So it remains to be seen if they might come back. And reform are basically saying that it could be entrapment, and they're insisting that they've done nothing wrong. But the police have been looking into it. It's a tricky one, because this is quite a complicated story to explain. And thus, it's quite complicated for, you know, voters and people who are not that interested in politics to take a grasp of. But if potentially, we have to say, we have no idea if it's going to take place. If police investigate potentially even arrest or charge anyone connected to reform, then that becomes a lot more serious.

4:17It certainly does. And I think combined with, you know, the various stories about reforms, finances that we've seen in the last few weeks and months, you know, we're getting quite used to quite tetchy interviews with Nigel Farage defending the various ways that his party has received money. We have, of course, the Christopher Harbone gift before he became an MP that was revealed by our own Anna Isaac of that gift of five million pounds. The news that posh George, as he was known, George Cotcrawl, the convicted fraudster, that money was donated to the party via his mother. I mean, these things combined with this slightly more complex investigation do show a pattern of how reform is operating that clearly is of some concern.

5:06There's various things going on. As a startup insurgent party, which reform would be still is, it's quite difficult to raise the money needed to break the mould. And they are, because of the way UK parties are funded, very reliant on a small number of very rich people. I mean, in terms of the Electoral Commission, it is quite tricky. The Electoral Commission have said in this case it's up to police first. I think the more important thing for Reform UK is just whether this cuts through to the public. There is some evidence that the£5 million gift, which Nigel Fowler is being investigated over, over when he should have declared it to Parliament.

5:42That's quite an easy thing for voters to get their grasp on. Most of us, I mean, I certainly have never been given£5 million by my very rich friend. I think the list for them is a bit like it was with Boris Johnson with the whole party getting sleaze stuff. The kind of rule of thumb is the voters don't care until they suddenly do. There's this mysterious moment where you get cut through. And I don't think we're at this point yet. But reform already have a few problems. They've been in front. You know, they're a victim of their own success for a bit. They've been leading the polls for a long time.

6:10Now with Andy Burnham and Labour a bit more research, finding it more difficult. I mean, the most difficult thing for them is coming just before the conference. It means they can't talk about the policies, the announcements they want to talk about. It's all seen through the prism of this slightly murky news story. So it just makes their momentum that bit more difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And I think also the way that Nigel Farage tries to present himself as this anti-establishment figure. And what I was struck by watching the documentary is sort of quite how establishment the party appears, given that they're meeting in places like Claridge's and these Mayfair private clubs, that visual might have some cut through.

6:50But let's talk about the vibe at conference where you are and the hubbub behind you. I mean, obviously, Farage will still be hoping to sort of reset the narrative with this conference. Previous Reform Party conferences have been quite sort of aesthetically interesting affairs with kind of pyrotechnics, Farage kicking balloons into the crowd in 2024. Is there a sense that there's a slightly different atmosphere this year? I thought there would be. I mean, but on admittedly an early sign, it feels quite similar to last year. Reform conferences previously have been basically like a US political rally with Nigel Farage as the main person.

7:33But in terms of vibe, I mean, I was chatting to quite a few reform activists yesterday when we got there. and they're quite upbeat and the thing that struck me is these are events that happens during the week and political activists are different crowds so the crowd disproportionately always tends to be older people can take time after in a week there's quite a few young people here reform definitely do attract a core of quite committed young people i mean as a proportion of the membership is probably still quite small but there is this element of i mean is it moving beyond the Nigel Farage cult, it's difficult to say.

8:06Yeah. And is there a sense that this is having cut through amongst that sort of core fan base? And I suppose, outside of the conference hall for people who are perhaps wavering reform voters, whether this is going to make a real difference to them? I think it's too early to say. And I think it would be much, much more of a cut through if hypothetically, and we still don't know what to happen, if there's no police action, then that really would make it easy to understand it's not just murky goings on in a tape someone close to Nigel Farage arrested or even charged that would be a big thing I think the worry for reform is that you know some pollsters think their absolute peak polling level is about 30 percent ish which might be just about enough to win an election I mean Keir Starmer won a massive landslide on 33 percent but there is a sense they seem to be doubling down on their core vote all of the policy announcements in recent weeks and months have been very heavily migration-based, authoritarian-based.

9:05There's this idea that Michael Farage would declare a state of emergency if he took office. This is stuff which very much appeals to the states from here. But to win an election, they also have to tempt maybe 5 or even 10 % of other voters, most likely conservative voters, over to them. And at the moment, it's hard to see what that offering is. But, you know, the conflict is then starting off, so maybe there will be some more mainstream stuff coming. Yeah. And also this pledge from Farage that, you know, reform was professionalising, that it was building its operations and turning less of a fringe party into a mainstream, properly run political party.

9:44And again, this latest story kind of raises serious questions about whether that has been effective. Peter, just moving forward, I mean, You mentioned the two men at the heart of this latest investigation, James Orr and Dan Dukes. Dan Dukes has been at Farage's side for so many years. There's some questions about the extent to which they are suspended or whether they'll come back. But basically, what's next and what can we expect from both the Electoral Commission and the police? In terms of the status of Orr and Dukes, we don't know. So Lee Anderson, the Reform Party MP and Chief Whip, on the morning broadcast round this morning said basically they're gone for good.

10:25Nigel Farage indicated not. This fringe event I was at with Danny Kruger, who's leading their preparation for government efforts, actually asked him, you know, which one is it? And he said they were suspended pending an investigation, which appears to indicate they might be back. I don't know if that's just confusion or a split. in terms of what comes next the electoral commission do have powers to ask the police to order investigations but they're leaving this order to the met police for now um and as we know from previous cases the met police do not work quickly so i don't expect an answer soon but this is a shadow hanging over the conference um and and reforms big things they have to be ready for election whenever it takes place and in terms of key personnel this is quite a significant thing Dukes is extremely close to Farage.

11:12We've used him for years as a kind of voice of Farage, a press spokesperson, you know, to ask him what Farage is up to. But they're personally very close. It's a bit like his relationship with George Cottrell. Dukes is like a kind of surrogate son almost. And James Orr is this very little known figure. But people in reform say he's instrumental in devising their policy platform. And they've been really pleased how well policy maps they've made recently gone down and they say that's down to war. So having them out of the picture, even for three months, it's quite a big blow. Yeah, a big blow. Well, you're set to have a very, very interesting weekend.

11:48Thank you so much for making time for us. Thank you. That's it for today. My huge thanks again to Peter Walker, The Guardian's senior political correspondent. You can keep up with his reporting and our coverage of Reform UK's party conference this weekend over at theguardian.com. And before I go, The Guardian's chart-topping podcast, Black Box, hosted by Michael Safi, is back for a second series. The new season will explore people's relationships with AI chatbots and how they are quietly reshaping lives. All six episodes are out now. It's an incredible series. Search Black Box, the chatbot, wherever you get your podcasts.

12:24Thanks for listening to this episode of The Latest. Today in Focus, we'll be back with you as usual on Monday morning. The Latest will be back on Monday night. Have a lovely weekend. This episode was produced by Angus Neal. The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin. The executive producer was Zoe Hitch. And it was presented by me, Lucy Hoff.

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