The view from Belfast after a night of violent protests - The Latest

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1:10It was basically racist attacks, a form of ethnic cleansing whereby foreigners are being targeted on the basis of the colour of their skin. Hundreds of boys and men, dark clothing, wearing masks and yet there's also a strange almost element of a festive atmosphere there which made it even more sinister. The troubles, the history of Northern Ireland echoes through what we're seeing in some of the very same streets where mobs burned out Catholic families back in 1969.

1:39Nosheen Iqbal:From The Guardian's Today in Focus, this is The Latest. I'm Narshi Nick Bahl.

1:47Nosheen Iqbal:Rory Carroll, you're The Guardian's Ireland correspondent and you've been reporting from Northern Ireland where we saw violence erupt on the streets of Belfast last night in response to this horrific knife attack on Monday evening. The suspect, a 30-year-old Sudanese man, Hadid Al-Odid, has been arrested and charged with attempted murder. The victim, Stephen Ogilvy, has lost his left eye and remains in hospital. I will say at the top that we're not going to be discussing the attack itself. There are reporting restrictions in place to prevent prejudice in criminal proceedings. needless to say a graphic video has been shared online and people took to the streets in rage Rory you were out in the city last night can you tell me what you saw a lot of anger people felt that they were completely justified to burn buses cars to storm the homes of foreigners whom they knew had nothing to do with this dreadful stabbing attack.

2:50And yet they felt that this was justice, community justice, because they feel that things have got, you know, you hear the sentiment out of control repeatedly. And so there was obviously a sense of menace, very sinister when you see hundreds of boys and men, dark clothing, wearing masks, and very dramatic circumstance. police helicopters overhead houses on fire and accurate smell everywhere um sirens going off and yet there's also a strange almost element of a festive atmosphere there which made it even more sinister um you had families coming out with young children coming out to watch what was happening and what was happening it was basically you know racist attacks a form of ethnic cleansing whereby you know foreigners are being targeted on the basis of the the color of their skin And so this was unfolded across multiple locations in Belfast and also in other parts outside the city.

3:44Nosheen Iqbal:Aurora, you've reported on waves of violence against immigrants in Ireland and Northern Ireland in recent years, from the sustained attack on Deliveroo drivers in 2023, the riots that were triggered by the Southport attack in 24, and what we saw in Ballymena last year against the Roma community. Would you say it's typically the same minority of people behind the unrest? Yes, in the sense that it's often, usually, the worst trouble is in loyalist, Protestant, working class areas of Belfast, you mentioned Ballymena, you know, and of course, in Northern Ireland, so much as sectarian nationalist Catholic areas tend to be less, not so much flashpoints when it comes to anti-immigrant sentiments.

4:27Nosheen Iqbal:Why is that? If you go to nationalist Catholic areas, you hear the same kind of racist sentiments that you hear in loyalist ones. There seems to be a little difference there. But one big difference is that I think the IRA or the remnants of it are able to stifle on the Republican side these explicit eruptions of kind of racial tinged ethnic cleansing. whereas on the loyalist side there are ex-loyalist paramilitaries who do also try to stifle this feel that this is wrong but they don't have the same level of control and also going a bit more deeply I think the sense of grievance on the loyalist side the sense that immigrants are taking over they're taking over the housing and certainly it is true that there are more immigrants newly arrived immigrants and asylum seekers are more likely to be placed in loyalist areas than nationalist areas So, I mean, there is a certain kind of logic as to why we're seeing this again and again happening in loyalist areas.

5:26Nosheen Iqbal:And you mentioned the families, the women with their kids. Is that unusual? Do you think that was quite distinctive last night in a way that you haven't seen before? Sadly, no. And I often find that one of the most upsetting things at these events when you see kind of rubberneckers coming out to, but not just to watch what's happening. And, you know, that's kind of universal. People are just curious. I mean, a riot, among other things, is also a spectacle. And so it's natural that people want to come out and see it. But when you see, the vibe is quite supportive, you know, and they're holding up young children so they can see better as a house is burning or a sofa is being thrown out of a window.

6:05And, you know, see there, can't you get the duke of that, you know, with glee. And, you know, and so that's unfortunately, I saw that also in Ballymina and here two years ago when riots erupted in Belfast in the wake of the side port tragedy.

6:20Nosheen Iqbal:Rory, you spoke to members of Belfast, Sudanese community, but what happened last night seems to be affecting anyone essentially who isn't white. People's, as you say, houses have been set on fire, businesses attacked. What are those people saying to you? It is a mixture. Some are just very frightened, upset. you know they're worried is it going to happen again might there be fresh eruptions today and sometimes also very i was going to impress a very kind of phlegmatic kind of stoic response yesterday from some of the the sudanese business owners who have had their businesses attacked before were kind of bracing themselves for fresh attacks last night and you know some said well you know where is safe they've come from sudan the southern sudan where you know they've led war And so, you know, they kind of just roll with it in a way.

7:09But, you know, I think once they're home, they're hunkering down with their children. You know, it must be just a very difficult situation.

7:15Nosheen Iqbal:Is there anything about the context of Northern Ireland and the way that people mobilised last night different to the protests we saw in pockets of the UK? Well, on the level, the scenes here in Northern Ireland are very similar to what unfolds, has unfolded in England. But, of course, the Troubles, the history of Northern Ireland echoes through what we're seeing this week. In some of the very same streets where houses were burned out last night, where mobs burned out Catholic families back in 1969 at the dawn of the Troubles. And so, you know, there's kind of a precedent for ethnic cleansing and the purging of the other.

7:55also the iconography of the Troubles you know masked men dark clothing out in the streets like that we've saw that so many times in different contexts during the Troubles so in a sense there's like these young guys now are almost like cosplaying you know these memories of our archival footage that they've seen of the Troubles

8:14Nosheen Iqbal:and meanwhile Stephen Ogilvie's family have called for calm they've issued this statement stressing the deeply valuable contribution that migrants make And yet, given the current political climate, it is unsurprising that the focus of debate is again on immigration and that this shocking act of violence is being used by some to justify hostility against all minorities. Rory, how do you assess what's actually behind the anger, resentment and violence that was just triggered last night? Well, people here, and this is Catholics and Protestants, and surveys show this, that they often many think that immigrants and especially asylum seekers are not contributing to Northern Ireland society, that they're a drain on the economics, because they're given, you know, the sentiment of the narrative is that they are given preferential treatment for housing, that they are given handouts by the state.

9:08and so people are resentful of that and plus that they are imposing and i'm you know uh their alien culture and this is a sort of a rhetoric that is also being reflected by politicians and some cases more explicitly than others and so for a lot of people here they feel that you know they didn't want this nobody asked them nobody consulted them do you want to live in a multicultural multi-ethnic society northern ireland used to be mono-ethnic is completely white um up until you know within almost two generations and so you know people feel well we're responding to this

9:41Nosheen Iqbal:and how much of that feeling is based on any sort of reality of facts when it comes to housing when it comes to jobs when it actually comes to the economic conditions well at a micro level clearly the numbers show that immigrants contribute economically to the society that they there they contribute more in terms of driving the economy and but at a micro level if you're in a loyalist housing estates you don't necessarily see you know the the role the economic impact of immigrants what you do see is that the house down the road that your aunt or your cousin hope to get doesn't get it because it's a family from Romania or Bulgaria or or Sudan and you know so then and social media is telling you your social media feeds are telling you that these people are you know glomming off the states and they're also they're not like you and I that they've got these strange, you know, violent ways.

10:34And so, you know, this narrative of invasion, influx is very prevalent. And people feel, well, that their own eyes are telling them that it's true.

10:44Nosheen Iqbal:And that language is really strong online, isn't it? And I'm thinking about, you know, Elon Musk and Tommy Robinson furiously posting, claiming that only by protesting repeatedly and loudly will there be any change. You know, meanwhile, John Boucher, Chief Constable of Northern Ireland's police has urged people not to be fooled or duped into a trap by people online inciting awful behaviour. But how much of what you're seeing on social media is a real worry to what's happening offline? Oh, well, it's extremely worrying because it's creating its own kind of parallel world and reality. And then, you know, people are acting out on that in the real world.

11:25I mean, we saw that last night, may well see it again today. You know, it legitimizes, I mean, the worst behavior, the worst sentiments.

11:32Nosheen Iqbal:And meanwhile, you know, the Prime Minister issued a statement this morning, and he said, there is no justification for the violence and disorder that we saw threatening our communities, nor for those who encouraged it online or elsewhere. It is clear that people were targeted last night because of their background, and I will not tolerate it. And in a similar way to what he said after the Southport attacks, those responsible will feel the full force of the law. Rory, how effective do you think that will be in calming things down? Well, the police, to their credit, were very effective after the Ballymena riots of last year.

12:08There were dozens of arrests after that. And that actually had an impact on the community there. I was back in Ballymena after the riots and people were saying, my God, so many teenagers getting criminal records because of that. And so I think that's one reason why our job now as journalists become even harder covering these things, because last night people were so the rioters and their sympathizers were very hostile to anybody, any good perceived outsiders taking pictures. You know, you take out your camera, you know, at your peril because they're much more conscious now of the potential policing and being identified.

12:44The policing is a deterrence to some extent, but clearly on the basis of what we saw last night, it's not enough.

12:52Nosheen Iqbal:Rory, thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Anashe. That's it for today. My thanks to Rory Carroll, The Guardian's Island correspondent. You can keep up with all of Rory's reporting and live coverage of this story over at theguardian.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Latest. Today in Focus will be back in your feeds as usual tomorrow morning, and The Latest will be back tomorrow night. This episode was produced by Bryony Moore and Annie Levespa. It was presented by me, Noshi Nikbal, and the senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin.

13:27Nosheen Iqbal:This is The Guardian.

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