What does Trump want from Venezuela? – The Latest

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:12Well, I've just come back from breakfast in the hotel here, and every single pair of eyes were just fixed on those pictures of my little coming off the helicopter. Many Venezuelans are going to be absolutely over the moon to see him in handcuffs, finally, after all these years. Don't ask me who's in charge, because I'll give you an answer and it'll be very controversial. What does that mean? We're in charge. We're in charge. And yet, the big question here is, has actually anything changed at all? This isn't over. We don't really know what's going on. Have we just actually been plunged into a deeper form of dictatorship, but one which is now supported by the US?

0:48Nicolas Maduro is in a New York courthouse to face drug charges. So what does all this mean for Venezuelans facing an uncertain future? From The Guardians today in Focus, this is The Latest with me, Lucy Hoth.

1:09joining me is tom phillips the guardians latin america correspondent thanks for being with us tom i know it's been an extraordinarily busy few days for you um so tell me about where you are because you're on the venezuela colombia border right what what's the feeling where you are and what kind of conversations are you having with people that's right i'm a couple of kilometers away from the Venezuelan border now in a Colombian town called Cucuta. I arrived here very late last night and we've come here to try and try and get a sense of what but what is going on how people are feeling there is a huge Venezuelan community here over the past 10 11 years since this massive exodus of Venezuelans started millions more than two million have poured through this border into Colombia so there are a lot of Venezuelans here and we want to hear what they're how they're feeling about this completely incredible situation.

1:57Yeah and inside Venezuela it sounds like it's a very mixed situation a mixed reaction to the unbelievable events of the weekend that Today in Focus have done a deep dive in this morning about what exactly unfolded with this US strikes and capturing of the former Venezuelan president but from your conversations with people on the ground in Venezuela Tom it sounds like there's a lot of uncertainty that there's a lot of panic, people are not sure whether to go to work, they're stockpiling, there are power cuts. What are you hearing? Yeah, a real mix. Our reporter in Caracas has been out and about talking to people there to try and get a sense of how they're feeling.

2:38And of course, there is quiet rejoicing amongst many. I mean, Maduro was a hated figure for everything that he has done over the last few years. But the events of the last 48 hours have not played out like many in the opposition had hoped. This is not a sort of a moment of immediate democratic change. This is not a sort of moment of immediate liberation. There aren't opposition supporters or even troops marching on the capital to free Venezuela from Maduro's regime. Maduro is gone but his regime remains in place. So our reporter in Gallagher also had a lot of people saying but you know this doesn't this isn't over we don't really know what's going on have we just actually been plunged into a deeper form of dictatorship but one which is now supported by the US yeah and we'll come on to kind of what could come next in a minute but as we're speaking we're speaking at just before 1 30 London time on Monday and Maduro has been transferred from a Brooklyn detention center to a Manhattan courtroom where he's due to appear in a few hours time he's wearing what looked like prison issue brown overalls with his wife.

3:49I mean, the optics of this are just staggering. And I'm sure if we'd spoken last week, this time last week, you would have said that this is impossible to see. But that is what's unfolding. Remind us about what the charges are that he's facing and what's likely to happen later today. Right. I mean, it's incredible. I've just come back from breakfast in the hotel here and every single pair of eyes in the restaurant were just fixed on live rolling coverage of those pictures of mothers coming off the helicopter in handcuffs. I mean, those images that many Venezuelans have been waiting and dreaming of for years and years and years, seeing this man finally brought to justice.

4:26It's his first hearing in New York today. He is being charged with offences relating to narco-terrorism. He's accused of being the head of a cartel and whatever the truth of those allegations, many Venezuelans are going to be absolutely over the moon to see him in handcuffs, being led into court finally after all these years. And yet the big question here is, has actually anything changed at all? And I think most people at the moment feel that the answer is no. Yeah, yeah. And in these images, Maduro is surrounded by drug enforcement agents facing, as you say, narco-terrorist charges. So the idea that this is related to drugs, but as you mentioned there, I mean, Trump has given some indication about what his real motivations might be, that this is about US investment into the massive Venezuelan oil reserves, that oil is what the US administration is looking for.

5:20Yeah, and remarkable how Trump has actually, they've been spelling it out. There's no attempt to hide the fact that this is about natural resources. This is about oil. It's just clear as day. You know, on one hand, they say, well, yeah, we've gotten rid of this evil drug trafficker and Venezuela is going to be catapulted into a brighter future. And then in the second breath, yeah, which this is all about oil. We want investment. And by the way, if Maduro's replacement, his former vice president, Belsito Rodriguez, doesn't do the right thing, Trump said just a couple of hours ago, then she's going to find herself in even bigger trouble than Maduro, which, I mean, is just mind boggling.

6:02quite what he means by that. What is he saying? Is he saying that if her administration doesn't do exactly what he wants, then more special forces troops will come back and she will suffer an even darker fate than Maduro? It's wild. Yeah, it is a very sort of stark threat, isn't it? And very thinly veiled. And also what could be worse than being captured and facing criminal charges in a New York courtroom. So the implications there are really great. So as you said, for now, Now, Maduro's government is, the state remains in place, albeit with Delcey Rodriguez as acting president. Initially in that extraordinary press conference in the hours after the attack, Trump said that the US planned to run Venezuela, but the Secretary of State Marco Rubio has backpedalled on that somewhat, hasn't he, and said that this is about US leverage in Venezuela rather than them being in charge of any kind of interim government.

6:56What seems to be happening is that over the last five, six months since Trump's pressure campaign began, he has been dangling a carrot and wielding a stick over Venezuela and Maduro in back channel negotiations, basically saying, well, the carrot is going to exile, maybe have some form of amnesty, but just leave. and the stick obviously being this massive naval deployment in the Caribbean Sea, well, the carrot now seems to be gone. There's just a stick for Motherhood's replacement. And that stick is, according to these remarkable comments, if you don't do what we want you to do, i.e. give us access to your massive oil reserves, then you will be dragged into custody in the US or worse.

7:37I mean, one can only imagine what worse means. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you spoke about the anxiety that people are feeling on the ground in Venezuela, but really they're looking at months of political uncertainty and of potential unrest. So if this is all about the optics of Maduro being hauled into a Manhattan courtroom, the reality for Venezuelans is somewhat more anxiety-inducing, to say the least. And they're also coming to terms with the fact that the Venezuelan opposition, the opposition leaders who many had hoped would come to power having won the election in 2024 seem to have been thrown under the bus by the Trump administration I mean a few a few weeks ago many people would have said that the Nobel laureate Maria Corina Machado would have been the person who would fly back triumphantly to Caracas to take power after Maduro was gone but Maduro was gone and the Trump administration is now saying no we're not going to deal with her actually Trump said she's not she doesn't command the respect of Venezuelans and he's immediately doing business and recognising Maduro's number two.

8:34So there is huge frustration, disappointment, and I think perplexity among many in the opposition about what the Trump administration is doing and why. Yeah. And indeed, the UN Security Council are also meeting in New York today. As with the court hearings, not expected to produce much of substance, but there will be hopefully a sense of accountability or international reaction to what Trump and his administration is doing. But But meanwhile, he's been making these renewed threats, hasn't he, towards Greenland to Cuba. You are in Colombia now. How much anxiety is there that what has happened in Venezuela could set a precedent elsewhere?

9:15Yes, as I was landing in Cucuta last night, Trump's comments on Air Force One, that Colombia's president was a very sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the US, and he's not going to be doing it very long. Let me tell you, those comments were breaking. and I think caused absolute outrage here and across the region. In Brazil too, the politicians will be looking at this and thinking, what is Trump going to do in Mexico City likewise? Is he planning to do something similar to another leader in this region, come in with special forces and abduct them because he doesn't like the way they govern their country?

9:49I mean, it is just incredible. And I think diplomats across the region are now holding their heads in their hands and thinking what on earth is going to come next. Yeah. Well, Tom, it's going to be an astonishingly busy few days for you. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Lucy. That's it for today. Thanks again to Tom Phillips, and you can keep up with all his reporting on this story as well as live updates over at theguardian.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of The Latest, the new evening edition of Today in Focus. We'll be with you every weekday evening with what you need to know about the story everyone's talking about in around 10 minutes.

10:28Today in Focus, we'll be back with you tomorrow morning and we'll be back tomorrow night. This episode was presented by me, Lucy Hough. The producer was Bryony Moore. The lead producer was Zoe Hitch. This is The Guardian.