Will weakening human rights really stop the far right? – The Latest

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0:12All sorts of other parts of our lives are protected. Our freedoms are protected by the CHR. It's like the ultimate backstop, if you like, for our human rights. The convention is a living instrument. It is the final safeguard of individual rights and freedoms across our continent. I mean, it's been a criticism of Keir Starmer and his government since day one, that they're too ready to kind of lean to the right and meet reform in its territory. Is rolling back human rights law really the way to tackle the far right? From the Guardians today in Focus, this is The Latest with me, Lucy Hoth. I'm joined by Pippa Creera, the Guardians political editor and host of our Politics Weekly UK podcast.

0:55It's great to have you with us, Pippa. Thanks for dialling in from Westminster. Thanks for having me. You're going to get all the action in the office. Colleagues walking past, Big Ben bonging in the background, doors banging and shuffling of papers and stuff. So forgive, please bear with us. The more the merrier. So Pippa, we've had Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister, writing an op-ed in the pages of The Guardian alongside his Danish counterpart, as well as two of his senior ministers off to Strasbourg making the case for human rights reform. Walk me through the case that the government is making today.

1:29So all of this, Lucy, comes back down to immigration and the fact that as an issue, it has risen up the political agenda in recent years and has sort of almost been turbocharged by the arrival or the re-arrival on the scene of Nigel Farage and the soaring popularity of Reform UK. Immigration is now one of the top two issues that people say they care about. And it's certainly the case that Farage has capitalised on the arrival over the channel of migrants arriving in small boats and of the large numbers of increases in net migration under Boris Johnson's government, which saw people coming from Ukraine and Hong Kong, as well as other parts of the world, but which ended up producing record high figures.

2:14and what this government is trying to do is to get a grip on the system because so many people, they say, feel that it isn't working, that Britain doesn't have control over borders, that it needs to have. And what this all comes down to is the European Convention of Human Rights. We're one of 46 countries which are signatories of this convention. It goes back to the Second World War. The idea is that countries didn't end up undermining human rights laws in their own countries, so there's sort of a bigger convention for them to abide by. And over the years, more countries have joined. It's nothing to do with the European Union.

2:49It's applied by the European Court, but it is a different thing. OK, so we've had Richard Hermer, the Attorney General and Deputy Prime Minister and Justice Secretary David Lammy travelling to meet with Council of Europe. Again, as you say, it's slightly confusing. It's in Strasbourg, but it's not related to the European Union. to talk to other members of the ECHR and make this case for reform. So what have they said? So the two key parts of the convention, which is basically a list of human rights, that they want to reform are Article 3 and Article 8. And what the government is trying to do is not just reform the ECHR itself, but to reform, to sort of modernise, to update its application by British courts or indeed courts in any of the other European countries.

3:36Article 3 bans inhuman or degrading treatment. And Article 8 is about privacy and right to family life. And what the government has been arguing is that people applying for asylum in some cases are misusing the system to avoid a high threshold of proof that there is in each of those areas to avoid being deported when, you know, in the case, certainly in relation to criminals who are being deported to foreign jails, for example, they feel, the British government feel that they should be able to do that. And fundamentally, the case that Labour is making is that it's up to progressive centrist governments in Europe to make this case, isn't it?

4:18To reform the ECHR from within rather than leaving it altogether as opposition parties to Labour would like to do, reform UK and the Tories. And it's interesting that the UK is doing this in lockstep with Denmark as well. That's right. It's interesting that the Danish PM co-wrote this opinion piece that was in The Guardian today on Wednesday, that they both are making exactly the same argument. And what ended up happening is that they produced with 27 of the other countries, so not all of the other countries, a sort of unofficial political statement that they've all backed for a new framework, which narrows the definition of those two elements, the Article 8 and Article 3 that we were just talking about.

5:03And it is quite interesting that the other signatories of this unofficial agreement include countries like Hungary and Italy, which have some of the more hardline approaches towards migration. And notably, France and Germany are not amongst the signatories. They've declined to sign it, instead putting their names to a broader statement which has been produced by all those governments. And I think those separate statements are basically a sign of the divisions that exist across Europe over how to tackle irregular migration and whether they should be continuing to guarantee the rights for refugees and economic migrants.

5:37And because of the domestic pressures at home that this government is facing for Nigel Farage and reform, they feel that they need to be in the block, in the group, which goes further in narrowing the definitions and making it easier for the government to deport people and therefore be looking as though that they are addressing the concern that so many people have over the rise in numbers of people arriving in the UK. But there's been lots of criticism, hasn't there, from Labour peers, from human rights organisations who've been vocal today from an open letter signed by 21 public figures, including Stephen Fry and Joanna Lumley, essentially saying that this is going to demonise some of the most vulnerable people in our society, that it will demonise refugees and also undermine protections for all of us.

6:27So there is real pushback on this from Labour. There is. I mean, there's plenty of people who are warning that this could open the door to countries abandoning some of the world's most vulnerable people. And there's also concern that the prime minister, among some Labour MPs anyway, particularly on the left of the party, that the prime minister shouldn't be diluting protections in order to pander to the right. I mean, it's been a criticism of Keir Starmer and his government since day one, among some Labour MPs and parts of the progressive left, that they are too ready to kind of lean to the right and sort of meet reform in its territory.

7:03And that's sort of deepening concern that some of the rhetoric that comes out of the government, you know, Shubhana Mahmood, for example, when she announced her asylum plans, Keir Starmer sometime before when he talked about an island of strangers could end up demonising refugees. And then the point about it sort of impacting on laws which affect all of us. Of course, Article 3 and Article 8 are just two of the elements of the convention. And all sorts of other parts of our lives are protected. Our freedoms are protected by the ECHR. It's like the ultimate backstop, if you like, for our human rights.

7:36So there's concern that, you know, is this the thin edge of the wedge? And even though the government has made clear that it's Article 3 and 8 it's concerned about, does this open the door in future, if not in the UK, but other European countries, to going further when it comes to the application of the ECHR. And that is, you know, be kind of Europe going in an opposite direction from the direction it's been going in really since the Second World War when it comes to upholding those human rights. And there'll also be those who are concerned not just about a pandering to the right in terms of language and in terms of action taken today in this case being made in Strasbourg, but that there is a moral argument that has failed to be being made about the positive case for immigration that Labour have quite notably moved away from.

8:23Yeah, I think that's right. And I mean, it is the case that David Lammy in Strasbourg this morning absolutely made the defence of the ECHR more broadly and how it was a central tenant to our systems and our constitution and our culture here. And one that he wouldn't want us to see withdraw from. Obviously that is aimed at a European audience, but also at a British audience where Nigel Farage and Kemi Bedenok have said that if they were in power, their parties would withdraw from the ECHR entirely. And he basically was suggesting that that's not any solution that this government would support. But yes, you're right.

8:59The sort of language that this government has, the tone of the debate that this government has pursued on migration, it kind of feels, it's almost like an afterthought that Keir Starmer says, oh, well, of course, we want to maintain our reputation as one of the most welcoming countries in the world, protecting someone who's vulnerable. It almost feels like an add-on because a lot of what they're actually doing by toughening up things like indefinite leave to remain, lengthening the amount of time that people can be in the UK before they get permanent settled status, that sort of thing, feels sort of counter almost to that approach.

9:30So there's definitely a lot of concern. So all that being said, Pippa, I mean, this British delegation has gone to Strasbourg to meet with other European ministers at a time where Donald Trump has made this very extraordinary intervention into European politics, yet again lashing out yesterday, saying that Europe is weak and decaying. The UK has gone to Strasbourg in this context of that intervention. But what does it tell us about the fact that the UK is now grouped with a country like Hungary, which we know has been spoken about in favourable terms by Trump, like Italy, run by Georgia Maloney, that Britain is now in that group?

10:10Well, I think there'll be plenty of people at home here in the UK that will be quite uncomfortable with that alliance. The fact that Keir Starmer has somehow managed to become a Trump whisperer and has convinced people that even, obviously, British people aren't overwhelmingly well disposed, shall we say, and being very diplomatic towards Donald Trump. But the government will be hoping that most people don't notice that we've just got into bed and signed an unofficial deal with Hungary and Italy and other countries. They'll be hoping that what people take away from this is that the government is prepared to take the fight to Europe.

10:44And even though this has nothing to do with the European Union, that they're willing to kind of stand up to Europe and say, look, we need to reform how this process works. It doesn't work for any of us. Migration is a huge issue. Let's not forget, not just in the UK, but the French government is under incredible pressure of migration. Southern European countries are under incredible migration. Scandinavian countries are under incredible pressure of migration. So they're going to try and, I think, talk less about Hungary and much more about the collective challenge that other European nations, progressive nations face.

11:15And I think what Keir Starmer wants to be able to say is that if progressive countries like the UK, social democrat governments, are not able to provide the solutions that people require, people are demanding for their borders, then they'll turn elsewhere. And you end up ushering in the right. And of course, they have very different solutions to this problem, which makes it very uncomfortably with a lot of people. well we will see what happens next and if that washes with the public Pippa thank you so much thanks for having me that's it for today thanks for listening to the latest the new evening edition of today in focus we'll be dropping into your feeds every weekday evening with what you need to know about the story everyone's talking about in around 10 minutes please do give us a watch and subscribe over on youtube as well and don't miss politics weekly uk which will be dropping into your feeds tomorrow.

12:01This episode was presented by me, Lucy Hough. The senior producer was Ryan Ramgobin and the lead producer was Zoe Hitch. This is The Guardian.