Gabriel Shemirani on medical misinfo and rejecting Conspiracyland

15:22Kate Shemirani:I mean, I think it was quite comical. there was emails from my sister's iPad that were relevant to the inquest. So I obviously shared them with the coroner. They get put up on the screen and my dad just, sorry, it's quite funny. My dad just shouts, we've been hacked. We've been hacked. Which, I mean, for a conspiracy theorist, I think everyone's trying to hack them. And to be honest, I found it kind of flattering that they thought I had some like MI5 tier ability to like, you know, hack into their emails.

15:47Gabriel Shemirani:And what was your reaction to the conclusion of the inquest?

15:51Kate Shemirani:I mean, yeah, I'll be honest. I was incredibly disappointed. I feel like the coroner and the UK state in general completely fails to understand the nature of how control and coercion works as it relates to cases like these concerning medical treatments. And so I think for me, to summarise the coroner's findings, she essentially found a lot of stuff that we agreed with. She said word for word, were it not for Kay's influence, I'm confident Paloma would have chosen conventional medical treatment and would still be here today. and that my mum was one of the key factors of my sister dying. So essentially my mum had played a role in my sister's death but because she did it as a group it was too difficult.

16:29Kate Shemirani:So my mum essentially got off on this kind of joint enterprise technicality.

16:32Gabriel Shemirani:Yeah and let's just look at what the coroner said in her conclusion. She concluded that your mum and dad had more than minimally contributed to Paloma's death and she said very clearly that your mum influenced Paloma to reject chemotherapy in favour of alternative treatment but she does attribute that influence more widely than just your mum's. So she refers to the kind of network of alternative health practitioners as they style themselves. And that was the reason that she gave for her ruling rather than focusing entirely on your mum. And that's where your frustrations lie in terms of understanding about how these sorts of alternative health networks operate.

17:06Kate Shemirani:And my mum had coordinated that network in the sense of these were all people that my mum had introduced my sister to. And not only introduced my sister to, but she was the one that was facilitating my sister's communications with them. So she outlined all this bad behaviour to make me and my brother feel like we were hurt and we were appeased. But then she appeased the side of my mum and dad by saying, well, I'm not going to make that legal jump to saying this is objectively wrong. So then all you've done actually is you've actually just outlined a rule book 101 of like, this is the extent of stuff that you can get away with.

17:34Gabriel Shemirani:I know for you, that was such a pivotal moment in terms of spurring you on to want to get more justice for your sister, to want to ensure that your mum was held accountable. Let's fast forward to now. What has the past year been like since that inquest concluded? And how do you feel about, you know, what you're trying to do to ensure that this doesn't ever happen to anyone again?

17:53Kate Shemirani:I didn't have much faith in the British state to begin with. But for me, it was the final nail in the coffin where I, you know, I hate to be on this sort of like British decline porn kind of like strand, but like... A theme of top comment. Exactly. I've been watching the episodes. But it gets to the point where you kind of realise that if you want to enact any positive change in this country, you can't do it through the British state. So, you know, I tried meeting with MPs, but they move incredibly slowly. so that was essentially to no avail. The police, again, incredibly useless in a world that they don't understand, i.e.

18:19Kate Shemirani:conspiracy land. So I've kind of taken this role where I'm trying to see what I can do kind of, I guess, off my own back. And that takes many forms. I mean, obviously that takes doing this and coming to speak to you and sharing what I've found about other people that my mum have hurt. Me and my friend do want to make some of our own content so that we can help people understand this world but also help people in that world understand themselves as well. there's been this tendency in the past 20 years where people would they point and stare at conspiracy theorists and go how funny how you know how you know how strange which kind of you know reduces conspiracy theorists down to being people that were always crazy and were always kooky and they were always going to end up there when if anything i think it's very important to actually humanize a lot of people that believe in these conspiracy theories not because i'm saying we you know we have to be kind to them and feel sympathy but if you don't understand how they got there then you don't understand how to get them out and to prevent others from going in there in

19:09Gabriel Shemirani:the first place and i think that's an important thing to highlight which is that you know following the investigation quite a few people got in touch with me talking about family members they have friends who have been very unwell either diagnosed with cancer or other serious illnesses who have turned to conspiracy land and alternative health on its own not as a complementary medicine i think of one email i received from someone whose mum had cancelled they say her mastectomy and she was diagnosed with breast cancer off the basis of advice she received from your mum and there was a line in the note that this person wrote to me saying it feels like they've almost taught people how to reject or not listen to the views of their family members how much does that kind of thing

19:53Kate Shemirani:resonate with you it makes me incredibly angry in the sense of like what people need to understand is people like my mother they've refined their craft they know what they're doing they know the certain words to avoid saying where the plausible deniability lies they're making money off of it so like they are you know by the literal definition of the term professional that like they're professionally doing it you know we've got a state that's approaching these kind of issues and because they don't understand the nature of how these people work they're not trying to create laws which deal with the harm that they cause if that makes sense they let people like my mum trojan horse ideas like individual liberty and freedom to actually use that as a means of coercion and control i don't know how many more people are gonna have to die whether we are gonna have to wait to the point where this becomes a public health kind of thing where hundreds and hundreds of predominantly young women are rejecting chemotherapy.

20:38Kate Shemirani:And then the British state goes, oh, this is a real issue.

20:41Gabriel Shemirani:I've been made aware of a list of names of people who appear to have been in contact with your mum about their own diagnoses, including some really serious forms of cancer, like cervical cancer, melanoma. And they were in touch with your mum before she was struck off as a nurse. And then we fast forward to, for example, the person who emailed me about their mum cancelling their mastectomy. That was after Paloma had died, the timeline from what's been suggested in the email. This was once Paloma had died, your mum was still continuing to give this advice to other patients. And you need only look at her feed on X now where she still gets lots of views, likes engagement, and she's continuing to encourage people with cancer to reach out to her so that she can give them advice.

21:17Gabriel Shemirani:What do you think can be done to stop this happening? Because it seems like people who are vulnerable and are at risk and are often frightened with really legitimate questions because they're worried about what to do are still seemingly in touch with your mum, even after the inquest, even after the original investigation?

21:36Kate Shemirani:Well, I think for me there's a multifaceted approach that you can take. For example, coming back to the fact that my mum has been struck off.

21:41Gabriel Shemirani:That was over the COVID misinformation, vaccine misinformation that she'd shared.

21:45Kate Shemirani:However, that change essentially has only served to be a semantic change because my mum is still able to refer to herself as a nurse. She just can't refer to herself as a registered nurse. And to, you know, the average Joe at home or even to you and me, like the difference between nurse and registered nurse when you read that you're not really going to understand what the intricacies of that are it still conveys a level of medical expertise which my mum doesn't have onto her but also it's the state has found that k is dangerous to public health but then they they still allow it online to give medical advice and then not only give medical advice advertise online medical advice so i think firstly you you strengthen the gmc

22:21Gabriel Shemirani:so that when that's the general medical council yeah so that makes decisions about who is allowed

22:25Kate Shemirani:to say they're a doctor etc yeah but it's you're saying the gmc's powers in the sense of online you shouldn't be able to advertise and act and behave in a way and invite services in a way that is inherently medical if you have no medical qualifications yourself the thing that really annoys me is that the current government with the online safety bill that even with the um bill about banning kids off social media i broadly agree with that as legislation but you know it's quite heavy-handed if we can be heavy-handed and strong in the areas that we need to be where it's powerful but not illegal you know with social media why don't we also do that with this issue this issue of public health obviously that's strong and consistent across the board if that

23:01Gabriel Shemirani:makes sense now when it comes to the tactics of profiles that share health misinformation and i'm not just talking about your mum here i'm talking about a range of different self-styled wellness influencers people who post misinformation about a range of different health topics including cancer but also vaccinations and other issues something i'm hearing a lot from doctors nurses people who work in the health profession, is that it's incredibly hard for them to combat these tactics because these posts will often sell people the world, essentially. They'll say, look, do this, and you don't need to worry about any of the tricky bits of chemotherapy, like losing your hair or fertility issues.

23:35Gabriel Shemirani:Their content will often be amplified and engaged with because the algorithms favour emotional stuff, right? I mean, what do you think about how the situation has changed since we first chatted about this? Does it feel like the health misinformation situation situation is improving or getting worse to you?

23:51Kate Shemirani:I mean, definitely getting worse. I mean, without a shadow of a doubt. I think where conventional doctors go wrong is that they're fighting on the wrong battlefield, as in they think, right, we're going to fight these people in the science. But people like my mum, they're not selling their stuff based on the science because they'd lose and they know they'd lose. It's a far more holistic thing where A, they take advantage of the legitimate failings of some kinds of conventional medicine. So you'll notice with a lot of health misinformation is aimed at women and it's very very feminine and they capitalize on certain facts such as you know historically women's health issues have both been under medicated for pain but also um less understood but also what alternative wellness and alternative medicine does really well is they understand that everything now is very image based it's very feelings based very vibe based and they understand that a lot of pressures um and a lot of insecurities are imposed on women by our society and they monetize that a lot of the messaging when they're trying to get you into alternative medicine is around your fertility and that you know chemotherapy will make you infertile and then you know you're essentially you're less feminine or it's very looks based or the chemotherapy will make you bloated it'll make you look like this i mean

24:57Gabriel Shemirani:investigating this world i feel like i see an increasing number of posts that have huge traction not just about cancer but about loads of issues and particularly targeting young women and framing that content as wellness content. One of the issues I've had loads of messages about, and actually we've also had a message in Top Comment about, is around the contraceptive pill, for example, and misinformation about how the pill works and the impact it could have, which again plays on all of these really understandable fears and concerns people might have. The issue is how much the influencers who push this stuff truly believe what they're saying to you and how much they know that that kind of misinformation could be rewarded with views and clicks and ultimately

25:36Kate Shemirani:money in the end yeah i mean to be honest i think for me asking the question of do these influences truly believe it is it's always the wrong question to be asking firstly with people like my mum they they formulate beliefs completely differently it's not it's not an empirical thing it's a feelings-based thing i.e which beliefs make them feel more important but also it's whether they believe it or not it's something that's being propagated you get a lot of influences who are young girls promoting this stuff and it's less feeling of anger and more feeling i guess like sadness and an empathy you can completely understand this you've grown up in a world where as a woman you're pressured into you know your worth is in your fertility your worth is in how you look your worth is in this you must detox, you must purge whether they believe it or not they've just become a vassal for all the pressures that society puts on them and it's manifested itself in being influencers for this kind of alternative medicine and wellness and I think it's I'm going to sound super Gen Z just making excuses for my generation right now but I think it's wrong to aim the blame that people my age and the influencers who are propagating it they're a product of a system before they got there I think the ones that we need to hold to count Yes, the social media bosses, but also the people that legitimize this stuff.

26:36Kate Shemirani:I'm not sure if this will make it in, but I think I've told you before, I really hate Gwyneth Paltrow because I think she's, you know, with Goop, which is Gwyneth Paltrow's wellness brand. To be honest, firstly, I see a lot of similar types of messaging that I grew up with, you know, with my mum. You know, stuff with, you know, dubious scientific claims, and obviously they've been brought up and sued on that before successfully. But she also does a lot of this messaging where it's focusing around female sexuality and what it means to be a woman. And they're kind of like, again, Trojan horse in that field, going like oh i need to buy our products that you know it's this sort of pseudoscience medicine so you know i think i have anger for the other quote-unquote adults in the room that actually should be reflecting and actually really do have this financial stake and are

27:13Gabriel Shemirani:willing to step back and let it happen i find doing my job that there are lots of misconceptions about the people who are drawn into health misinformation or impacted by it i mean i think some of these influences you're describing could could fall into that category they're people who have themselves been influenced by health misinformation and then go on to share it a bit like a pyramid scheme almost or being like in a cult your sister is one of the most striking examples of someone who fits none of the stereotype of what some people think is a person who would be vulnerable or susceptible to health misinformation she was just like super switched on cynical great sense of humor very hard to con and mislead but also really scared because being diagnosed with

27:53Kate Shemirani:cancer is really scary well completely i think i read in a paper as well that actually they did a study on what are the types of women that engage with like complementary alternative medicine and the majority of them are white university educated middle class women so this idea that they're just you know uneducated right-wing lunatics that are doing this is you know it's completely false can i really say oh it's yeah it's super rational that they're going to be scared or apprehensive you know about doing invasive treatments that are going to make them lose their hair are going to change how they look it's going to impact their fertility when all they've been told is that that's what it means to be a woman i'm you know it comes back to this thing when like people need to stop pointing and staring and saying like you know these conspiracy theorists are so weird why they would do that it's so idiotic and i think that's the thing that was shocking to a lot of people about my story with you know i grew up with weird cooey leaves you know up until the age of 15 i just think the royal family was shapeshifting lizards but what i'm trying to get at is this idea that people that believe in conspiracy theories or people that fall prey to these the idea that they're fundamentally different people whose brains just work fundamentally differently and they were always going to think like that is wrong they're victims and tragedies of circumstance you know rather than victims of fate it's coming up to

28:58Gabriel Shemirani:two years since you lost your sister a year since the investigation went out how do you feel about

29:05Kate Shemirani:everything now i feel kind of weird to be honest it's i think anyone that's been through like very something very traumatic can kind of speak to this effect where the world stops feeling dangerous to you it's just dangerous starts feeling like the normal world to you so it's done when it stops and then life's calm. It feels like I'm living in a world that I'm no longer adapted to, if that makes sense. I think for me, I got so used to this kind of like, you know, high intensity, high stress, especially through the court case and everything that happened to my sister. They're now living in a world where that stress is absent.

29:31Kate Shemirani:I don't know, it's difficult to understand and connect with people now because like, I don't know, we live a fundamentally different experience and I've had to see, I've had to see things that they haven't, you know, they'll never have to see. I don't know, because it's like in a way where it's like a soldier coming back from war and just, you know, everything feels a bit too quiet.

29:47Gabriel Shemirani:And just to finish really How would you like the people listening To think of Paloma when this anniversary Comes up to remember Paloma

29:59To be honest I think what I've liked about the

30:04Kate Shemirani:What I've liked about getting her name out there Is she's now a person In so many other people's minds And I always loved her And I still do love her And for people that you love you want nothing but their freedom for them. So, you know, in that same sort of way, I wanted to remember her how they want to remember her. I have my own way of remembering her, and that's how I like to... I don't know.

30:26Gabriel Shemirani:Isn't there a song that you like listening to music that reminds you of her?

30:29Kate Shemirani:Yeah, yeah, it kind of varies.

30:31Gabriel Shemirani:What's the current fave?

30:33Kate Shemirani:I mean, she'll get bleeped out, but the one that me and my sister always used to like listening to was Me and My Bitch by Notorious B.I.G.

30:40Gabriel Shemirani:That wouldn't get bleeped out, don't worry.

30:42Kate Shemirani:Yeah, so that was one that always reminds me of her. why does it remind you of it it's like we always used to we used to do this thing when we were younger where we'd recite song lyrics to each other but like said in like a shakespearean like thespian kind of tone because it made it funny and the intro to that song is like especially graphic so it just made it funnier to recite it like a thespian tone um yeah so listen i'll be listening to a lot of biggie when it comes up to the uh the anniversary well thank you so much for

31:09Gabriel Shemirani:for sharing all that with me and even two years on two years is not a very long time and um it takes a lot of courage to not just speak about your sister but also try and figure more about this conspiracy land that she and other people are being exposed to and if anyone listening has been impacted by health misinformation if they have encountered kate shemarani or other conspiracy theorists or someone they know has been in touch with them and affected by them and we would really like to hear from you so you can get in touch on whatsapp plus 44 330 123 9480 and you can email top comment at bbc.co.uk or you can send me or Gabriel a message.

31:49Gabriel Shemirani:I got in touch with Gabriel's mum Kate Shemarani and his dad her ex-husband Faramaz about the allegations made in this episode. Kate Shemarani continued to dispute the details of Paloma's cancer diagnosis and the circumstances of her death. She also continued to make allegations about ambulance staff and the NHS. Kate Shemarani says, quote, records demonstrate that Paloma had full decision-making capacity and that, quote, the suggestion that I stopped Paloma from having chemotherapy is false. In relation to allegations about other patients who've been in touch with her, Kate Shemarani says, quote, I've never advised anyone to refuse surgery or chemotherapy.

32:26Gabriel Shemirani:I underwent conventional cancer surgery. My work has consisted of nutritional support for individuals making their own treatment decisions. She also says she does not accept the allegation that she, quote, voluntarily shared confidential patient information with third parties. He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history. He's won the prestigious Ballon d 'Or award five times. He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football. And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status. Guess who we're talking about yet?

33:01Gabriel Shemirani:That's right, Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.