Lucy Fleming & Simon Williams’ Travel Secrets | Sailing Across the Atlantic at 50

0:00Tanya Rose:My father was a tremendous traveller. He travelled a lot during the war. And he was an explorer and an adventurer and a spy? He worked in deception. Deception. He walked from China to India and wrote a book called One's Company about it. He was a very exciting man to travel with because he could lag his way into any building, any palace, any secret place. Welcome to Travel Secrets with me, Tanya Rose, the podcast sharing wisdom for fellow travellers. Each week, I ask my guests to reveal their six travel secrets and the holidays and adventures that surround them.

0:40Tanya Rose:I would like to introduce you now to our next interview, the wonderful couple, the acting couple, is Lucy Fleming and Simon Williams.

0:54Tanya Rose:Their faces and voices will be known to all of you, but especially to the local Henley residents, because you're locals, aren't you? We are very near locals, anyway. Well, Nettlebed, that's fairly local. Nettlebed's very local. Simon, your career has spanned many decades on television... That's rather rude. ...film... ...and radio. Yeah, yeah. And you're most known for your wonderful portrayal of the dashing, gorgeous James Bellamy in Upstairs, Downstairs. I fell madly in love with you in that series. And you said I wasn't old enough, but I promise you I was. I really, really was, very sadly. Poor old James, yeah.

1:35Tanya Rose:He was a wonderful character. Very, very... What is the word? Well, I'm asking you the word, haven't I? Mixed up. Well, he didn't really want to be... He was a product of his age. He was a product of his age. I was very glad to be shot on him because when you're playing someone who's unpleasant or sad, you get a bit unpleasant and sad. Certainly when he committed suicide, I was rather relieved that he was gone. Well, I wasn't. I wasn't happy about that, but you were absolutely marvellous. Thank you. Lucy, you're an actress in your own right, and successful in Survivors, Inspector Morse, and the list goes on and on, but you have a wonderful show that you're doing together, going around the countryside, called Posting Letters to the Moon, which just sounds so wonderful, which are the letters that your father, Peter Fleming, wrote to your mother, Celia Johnson, of Brief Encounter fame, my very favourite black and white romantic movie.

2:34Tanya Rose:I sit and sob every time I see it, and I have seen it many, many times. And they communicated during World War II by letter, didn't they? They did, they did. There wasn't much other way to communicate. They could have texted one another. No. No, couldn't send emojis, couldn't do Instagram. We've done the show here, actually, at the Kenton. Yes, twice. And you're doing it now? We're doing it on Saturday in Colchester, and we're doing it in Wallingford on the 18th of April. How wonderful. Which is just done. Well, I hope that we will. It is a wonderful celebration, a letter-writing of something that people don't do anymore.

3:07My mic's suddenly given out. It is a celebration of letter-writing in general, because people don't, sadly, write letters as much as they should. they send little heart emojis to one another but there was a time when letters were everything.

3:21Tanya Rose:And I've heard you actually reciting some of those letters on the Rosebud podcast with Giles Brandreau and it's so charming. She says, dear Mr Flem and he says, dear Mrs Flem and she says, I've got the ghoulies or the willies. I've got the willies. It's quite close to the willies, obviously. Not the ghoulies. I don't think that's a word. I don't think that's actually... My father was a tremendous traveller. He travelled a lot during the war and before. And he was an explorer and an adventurer and a spy, was he? He worked in Deception. Deception. He wrote one of the great travel books of the last century.

3:58Brazilian Adventure was a wonderful book. He walked from China to India and wrote a book called One's Company about it. Did he?

4:06Tanya Rose:How amazing. Still in print. He was a wonderful writer. And then obviously your uncle. My uncle Ian. Ian, he was a writer too. Was a writer too. You may have heard of him. He created a character called James Bond, I think, didn't he? He did, he did. So I hope we're going to hear a little bit about posting Letters to the Moon and also Golden Eye, perhaps, where Ian penned all of the James Bond books. But let me start by asking you a question, which is, what is the number one destination you think everyone should go to once in their lifetime? And I'm going to start with you, Simon. I grew up just after the war with my father traveling to do plays in New York.

4:44And there was something about the stuff he sent back. In those days, the rate of exchange, I think he got a pound, bought you six or seven dollars. So things were pretty good over there. And we would be sent the latest Rogers and Hammerstein musical. We'd be sent blue jeans. And we were all still on rationed food and things. And it was just the place to go. was Nirvana and when I eventually got to go there it just blew my mind more than any other city in the world it just has an energy it's built on granite so there's kind of no sogging of your energy it's just a pure it's just the blue cold skies and the huge buildings and everybody's rather kind of they're quite like Liverpoolians I think that New Yorkers they're kind of very in your face very kind of rude and abrasive and funny and we've got a lovely gentleman in the

5:36Tanya Rose:audience who's come all the way down from Liverpool to see tonight. Where are you? Somewhere? So... Red or blue? Oh I don't know. You don't like football? He likes podcasts. He likes podcasts. But no, New York is absolutely amazing. It is the city that never sleeps, isn't it? It really is. We did that we did posting letters to the moon there and it was very thrilling to go back there. We weren't on Broadway, we or off-Broadway, but it was... Off, off. Off, off, but it was very exciting. And we once came in on Cunard, and we were taking... It was my uncle's centenary, and we were taking an exhibition of book covers, which sounds a bit boring, which is actually very interesting, across to New York on the Queen Mary, or the Queen Elizabeth, I can't remember which one.

6:23And we were asked to the captain's table for dinner on the last night, and they said, would you like to come up on the bridge to come in? at three in the morning. So we said, yes, we would. And it was sprawling. So you see the Statue of Liberty. Yeah, yeah. First thing that happens is that policemen come on board. And we were with Lenny Kravitz, who was also at the captain's table. That was cool. That's very good. Did he perform? Not then, no. They can only get under the Tiber Road Bridge at low tide. So that's why you have to judge it very carefully. I think it was about five foot clearance going under the bridge, coming into New York Harbor.

7:02Tanya Rose:That's quite scary, actually. Wonderful. Very exciting. How wonderful. Lucy, let me ask you the next question. What is your most unexpected travel experience? Well, a few years ago, I entered a competition that the Times was holding to write 200 words or something about why I wanted to sail around the world. I didn't really want to sail around the world, but I wrote as if I did. and I got narrowed down to the last 10 or 12 or something we had to go for a weekend so anyway I won the women's birth so then I did some training for sailing around the world I'd done a bit of sailing but not much and it was called the BT global challenge and it was going to take quite a few months what then happened is my brother died so I couldn't leave my sister but I did do one leg I went from from Boston no from Cape Town up to Boston which was five and a half weeks on the Motorola ship and how many of you were sailing or 14 and it was quite an adventure and it was quite extraordinary actually and I had my 50th birthday while doing that is that why you wanted to go away I think maybe subconsciously yes it was extraordinary for me because I was in the early days some computers and every morning I go down I see this tiny dot in the middle of the Atlantic and I think gosh she's so far away you know we couldn't even speak it was a incredible adventure well done you we did um the the boat was lying rather well in in the whole competition and the skipper decided rather than go the straight way up to Boston he would go across to the South American coastline, pick up the winds and the currents up there and sail up the side, which is what he did.

9:02And so we were at the back for ages, but once we got those winds and the currents, we zoomed up and then the chap who was in charge, it was called Mike Lodge, who's actually in the lead, not in charge, he realised what we were doing and cut across. So we ended up coming in second.

9:19Tanya Rose:I was going to say, did you win? We came in second, on that leg. Wow, how extraordinary that really is very brave of you He came to meet us and all I could hear was him singing God Save the Queen Oh That's so sweet and hadn't you been at sea for quite a long time Quite a long time So when he came to kiss you, hello That wasn't a very good idea Keeping a distance She hadn't had a bath in five weeks Oh yes, definitely keeping your distance It was a bath A shower Simon, what is your most overrated or underrated place? Where have you been that you thought was wonderful or that was not wonderful? I had to do a film in China, and I didn't see the terracotta figures like Christopher did, Christopher.

10:08And I certainly didn't want to bring my back. I found that the Cultural Revolution, which was back in the sort of 90s, had taken such an impact on the people. I love traveling and meeting people and connecting with them, but I found them very, very hard to communicate with. We were filming in a village where they hadn't seen round-eyed Westerners before at all. And communicating with them, they were kind of... They were just mistrustful, and I just thought... I felt very unwelcome there and very... They must have thought you were very tall. I felt very alien. They thought I was very, very tall.

10:49They didn't like the look of me at all. The only thing I eventually succeeded in doing was doing with all the children in the school. I did, here's the church and there's the steeple over the road. And they had them all doing that in the end. That was the only connection I eventually made. And didn't you get somebody, the lift girl, to say something? We couldn't get them to talk English at all. But the girl who operated the lift, she was automatic anyway. I taught her to say, turned out nice again. I love it. They hadn't had Westerlers in there at all. And I love the idea of people getting in the lift.

11:25Tanya Rose:I'm a Chinese girl. And I was saying, turned out nice again. Oh, that is absolutely brilliant. Didn't your father spend quite a lot of time in the Far East? He did. He did. He spent a lot of time in China and India and the Middle East and all over the place. So he was away a lot? Yes. During the war he was. And then afterwards he traveled quite a bit. He was a real old-fashioned adventurer. I see. Do you think that Ian took some of your brother's adventures for James Bond, or were they more like his? My father's adventures. Ian worked for Naval Intelligence. He was the assistant to Naval Intelligence, the admiral who ran Naval Intelligence.

12:05And he was quite high up in deception in the Navy. And he used stories and people from that world, which he couldn't talk about, obviously, because it was the official secrets act. But he used their character and their adventures quite a lot. And, yeah, I think the books used to come to Daddy in brown paper parcel every sort of once a year, because he wrote one a year for the last 14 years of his life, 12 years of his life. And he used to hurry upstairs and... and read them and make notes. He was called Professor Nitpik. Oh, was he? How brilliant. Oh, I love that.

12:50Tanya Rose:That's wonderful. Let's talk about food and drink. What's your best meal you've ever had on a trip? Or what do you like eating? Or where do you like eating locally? Let's just talk about food and drink. It's so much part of travel. I have very happy memories of touring with Derek Nimmo, who used to send tours of plays around the Far East. And in Oman, we went to a beach for a banyan, which is a picnic, and the sea there was clear and beautiful. And we'd take some of the food out and sit in the sea next to the rocks, chipping oysters off and eating them. That was very magical. God, how delicious.

13:24Tanya Rose:Pretty lovely. He was another great traveller. He was a wonderful man. Oh, now, come on, Simon, we'll just find out this panel. Remember Derek? Yes, that's exactly how he spoke. Thank you, thank you. Very good impression. Excellent impression. He was a very exciting man to travel with, because he could blag his way into any building, any palace, any secret place. He was wonderful. I think he was from Liverpool. He was from Liverpool, yeah. You'd never guess from the way he spoke, though, would you? And what about you, Lucy? What are your favourite restaurants in the UK or where you've been? I've got an affection for the Savoy Grill.

14:02My mother was made a dame, and we took her to lunch there after she went to the palace. I wanted to say I love the Ivy, the original Ivy. because it was very special. My father was always doing plays in the St. Martin Theatre, and we'd have lunch before a matinee, and the stage manager would come in and say to my father, it's a half-an-hour call, and he'd say, have the bill, please, and we'd pay the bill, and he'd go in and do the show. But back in the day, during the war, Noel Coward was a regular in there, and he said any actor who comes into the Ivy in uniform, on leave, I want you to hold the bill back and I will pay it next time I hear.

14:46Noel Coward was not just a famous wonderful man, we'll come on to maybe Firefly in a minute but he was also a great kind of champion of actors and there were many many actors who served in the war who remember going to the Ivy and having the bill paid by Noel Coward.

15:00Tanya Rose:How absolutely wonderful. He was a wonderful man. I had a fantastic lunch in there with Albert Finney one day who was a great family friend and it was the most hilarious lunch because my business partner and I were sitting opposite him and she fancied another actor at another table. Sean Bean. I mean, honestly, really. And Albert got really cross. He said, excuse me, Sarah, I'm the famous one here. Why are you looking over there? So he went over to Sean Bean. He said, Sean, you don't know me. I'm Albert Finney. Albert was his hero. He nearly fainted. Come back and join our table. It was hilarious.

15:35Tanya Rose:And Sarah nearly died. and also he said, oh, Albert, I've had the same voice coach as you and then Albert got a napkin and he was Lady Chatterley's lover, I think, and he went, call me a Sarah and let me entwine some flowers in your vagina. Well, she ran out. That was it. He was absolutely so embarrassed, but it was a fabulous night. That's my takeaway moment from the evening, you say that. I shall treasure it forever. Didn't you do something with Albert? You did Gathering Storm with him, didn't you? Oh, yes, I did. Yep. It was one day's filming. Oh, not much. And he gave me a tip for the race at Sandown that afternoon.

16:13Tanya Rose:Don't come in. I lost a fiver. That's as far as that went. Lucy, what was your top travel tip? Enjoy yourself. I think Begin said that as well. But I think it's so important. If things go wrong, never mind. Don't pack too much. I always pack too much.

16:36what's yours? I think reach out to the people who live where you're visiting and in my case I love talking to people I think travel is more interesting for me just to talk to people to find out why they live there and how they live and things but I'm very tall and imposing so I think if you're tall and imposing crouch down a bit, squat a bit and make eye contact. He once went off in India and came back covered in red dye. What did you do? There'd been some throwing thing of, you know... Very good. Yes, I forgot about that. Yes, I got involved in a school game and they all threw red flour at each other.

17:25Oh, that's so funny.

17:26Tanya Rose:Now, I know you love Sri Lanka. Tell me a little bit about what you did when you went to Sri Lanka, Lucy. Well, the reason we went was to do our show, which we did in Gaul for the Literary Festival. But we took a bit of chance to travel before and we went up to the tea trails and stayed in one of those lovely old-fashioned hotels. They're more like sort of Scottish lodges. They were individual bungalows. Bungalows, yes. He stayed in bungalows.

17:58What was like a hotel? Bungalow.

18:03It was very nice. Recollections may vary. It was very nice. It was beautiful. And then we gradually made our way through various lovely hotels to Gaul, where we did our show. And the people are magical. It's had a tough time, Sri Lanka, and I think people should all go there. It's beautiful. And it's just a very special place. I think you have to go there to appreciate it. The wildlife there, wonderful. Never been. I'd love to go. It's known as India Light because it's so friendly and so compact. And they've got more wildlife there than you can imagine. They've got blue whales on the coast, they've got leopards.

18:46It's wonderful. Oh, do they? And to see the tea plantations with all the girls in their coloured saris picking tea, it's a beautiful sight on the mountain.

18:54Tanya Rose:Wonderful. And you also love India, don't you? Didn't you go to Rajasthan with Mahut? We were doing a film called The Viceroy's House. Oh, yes. And we had a week out there filming, and then we had a week staying at a camp near Rajasthan where we went and saw leopards. And we got up early and we missed them a couple of mornings, and then the last morning we saw these wonderful leopards creeping out. And it was very, very special. How lovely. And some babies too. Was The Viceroy's House about Mountbatten? Yes. Was Charles Stantz in that? No. Hugh Bonneville. I know somebody that I had interviewed on the podcast was in it.

19:35Tanya Rose:I think it was Hugh who talked about staying in the Viceroy's house. Yes, it was lovely. It was amazing. And Gillian Anderson. So have you done many films together? No. Was that the only one? We did one film, but that wasn't very good. What was that? I can't remember what it was called. It was awful. I don't think anyone else can if it wasn't very good. But you're posting letters to the moon, you do together. Yes. And you are your mother and you are... Her father. Her father. Yeah. And they really are very, very charming. So what is it that they're talking about? Because it's during the war. Is it what she's doing in the day?

20:17Tanya Rose:Is it where he is? What are they actually talking about? It's what she's doing during the day and what she's doing work-wise. because she was already quite well known as a stage actress, but she hadn't done any film. And she went up to Coward at a party, which was very unlike her, because she heard he was making a film and said, can I play the wife in which we serve? And so she did a screen test, and they spouted things like the walls and the carpenter at each other. And it looked quite mad, but she got the part. And that was the beginning of her film career. Oh, was it? And she also did, you know, Ministry of Information films and things like that with Peggy Ashcroft.

20:58Very funny. They got terrible giggles. And then she went on towards the end of the war to do Brief Encounter in sort of February 1945 through to June 1945.

21:09Tanya Rose:So she did that during the war? Yeah, yeah. Really? How did they film that during the war? Well, they had to go up to Lancashire to Carnfall Station because otherwise the arc lights would have attracted the bombers. and they had to wait while the fast trains came whooshing through. So did they film at night? Yeah. How amazing. That's really interesting. She writes all about that and about Trevor Howard and David Lean, who she adored, and Coward, who she adored as well. So she was doing that. She was doing that, but also being at home looking after eight evacuated children, which she wasn't very good at.

21:47Tanya Rose:Oh, really? She was a terrible cook and she got into a sort of panic about housekeeping. And they got as much help as they could in the house, but with another, a sister-in-law and her sister in the end and their children. So it was pretty chaotic. And, you know, they sent each other terrible jokes to make themselves laugh. Oh, how sweet. And what was Peter actually saying in his letters? Could he say where he was and what he was doing? No, not really. Most of the time he was in Delhi and he got fed up with the sort of buffoon-like generals who are out there not doing very much. But he writes wonderfully, Simon, so when you're being Peter, he's got some fabulous ways of speaking and writing.

22:27Yes. His letters were probably written in very difficult circumstances, sometimes with a torch and a bit of airmail paper and a pencil. Is it hard to read them? Lucy's had them typed, but they were... They had a wonderful kind of feeling of atmosphere about them, and He couldn't really tell her what he was up to and he would always make light of the danger he was in They were very genuinely stiff upper lip emotionally as a couple but underneath the stiff upper lip you could see that there was a great love and a great wit too He crash landed in a glider in Burma behind the enemy lines and wrote a letter to my brother who was then about five or six and put it in very sort of jolly terms, but it was obviously absolutely awful and terrifying.

23:21And in the end, he says, we marched over the hill and went home again. Write to me soon, love, Daddy.