Alastair Campbell vs. TRIGGERnometry: Grooming Gangs, Immigration and Iraq

23:40Terrible, terrible, terrible problem. Lots of mistakes it's made along the way. But the way that it's now become identified purely, virtually purely within our debate is an issue of Muslims, as opposed to some of the worst grooming gangs being, you know, white people in white communities. I think that is a problem. And of course, it's very, very hard. You know, well, who's the worst grooming gang? You know, you just want, I want to have a debate where we can actually say, these are real problems. once you've got a politics that's been defined through a certain prism, and the prism at the moment, because of our media, because of people like Farage and so forth, it's defined in a certain way.

24:25I think that's what I mean about the problem becomes worse.

24:28Francis Foster:But I would, it's actually something different that I disagree with you on there. My reading of it, and we've covered the grooming gangs issue from 2019, because when we first discovered what was going on, I was horrified. And I remember writing, I think it was to Sarah Champion, and inviting her on the show. And she had had so much hate for even raising this issue. She said, I just don't want to talk about it anymore. I get that, I get that. And so the reason that people are talking about it with the level of anger and resentment is not just what happened, it's also the fact that actually, when people tried to have a very reasonable debate, they were suppressed.

25:04Francis Foster:That's what happened. They were suppressed. You used the phrase there, reasonable debate. Sarah Champion was a Labour MP trying to raise this issue in her local community. I know Sarah Champion is and I know what she was trying to do. And I also accept, I do agree with you, that there have been times, probably particularly when it's been related to race, but also I think we're seeing it in other issues. I think we're seeing it in relation to the trans debate. I think we're seeing it in relation to maybe less the kind of gay rights debate. But I think particularly if you're talking about race, I think there have been times when the fear of the consequence of ventilating the debate stops you having the debate in the first place.

25:44And I agree, and I think that's wrong.

25:45Francis Foster:And that's why you get the radicalisation, is my point. Because when people aren't allowed to speak and they're suppressed and they're prevented from... I never buy this idea that they're not allowed to speak. Sarah Champion. No. When you're hounded out of public life or out of speaking in public about a really important issue to the point you don't ever want to talk about it again... Yeah, that is... I'm not defending it. Then your other people who are more extreme are going to come along. I agree. Yeah, but that's what happened. Right. What I'm saying is that if your political debate generally has become more toxic, and we can blame whoever we want, right?

26:20And you probably might think it's more people on the left.

26:22Francis Foster:No, I think it's technology, actually, mainly. Okay, maybe. Yeah. But that's another issue we haven't really concerned about. But let's focus on this. Okay. So focus on this. I would say that because the debate generally has become more toxic, because we do have a branch of politician that when something really bad happens doesn't think that's really bad what can i do to help actually thinks what can i do to exploit that is why partly i think why we got into the mess recently the southampton and belfast stuff you know where technology played a big part but that was a classic example where politicians and political figures who knew absolutely nothing about beyond a small set of facts.

27:11But they just wanted the one or two facts within that cohort of facts, then to go out and create riots. OK, that is a that is a creature of the toxic to my mind of the toxicity of populism. And so that we don't. And this is look, we've all got to own up to our responsibility in this. Social media has played a massive part. The way we do our politics has played a massive part. And the way, you know, one of the things I've thought about a lot since doing this podcast with Rory Stewart, because, you know, most of my life I've spent trying to destroy Tories. That's what motivated me. You know, how do we get the Tories out of power and keep them out of power?

27:51And that attitude, which is still very strong within me to some extent, but what the podcast has taught me, I think, is that it's really not a good way to address problems. So, and that's why I really, really hope Andy Burnham is able to stick to this style that he's got. I think it's going to be hard. Very hard. Because he's talking about more collaborative, more respect for each other.

28:15Francis Foster:They all say that and then they come in and start by. I don't think they say it. What about David Cameron? He came in and we're going to work to blah, blah, blah. No, no, it's so hard to do. But my point is, I think Andy's, I think, put it this way. I think it's become an ingrained part of Andy's politics. So because he's done a different job, as being a mayor, it's a different sort of job you've got to do. But so I think the, and I accept because I'm, you know, I'm very Labour and I do feel that the country's been dragged way too far to the right. I know that there's this problem on the left as well.

28:52I do accept that. But I think in terms of, and I don't want to play the blame game but if you say, let's say that it's, let's say those people who say they think it's a good thing that we're now in the era of populism, that we've got this populist debate right, the ones that I think have been most successful at changing the nature of that political debate, I think they are on the right. And I think in our country a lot of them is to do with the media. I think who was I with the other day? I was talking to about about Murdoch. God, who was it? Malcolm Turnbull, former Australian Prime Minister.

29:29And he said, you wouldn't have had Brexit without Murdoch and you wouldn't have had Trump without Murdoch. Now, I don't know if that's true or not, and none of us know. But there's a guy who's been Prime Minister for Australia. He's quite a bright guy, a very bright guy. And it's a fair point. It's a fair point. It may be. It may be. It's not a fact, but it's a...

29:48Francis Foster:It may be. But the issue I'm trying to raise with you, and by the way, look, We don't come at it from a right or left perspective. The issue I'm trying to hone in is something that really bothers me as someone who had dissident family in the Soviet Union who were prevented from saying their opinion in public. The reason the show really started with us is we really don't like the culture of not allowing people to express their concerns. And I think it's important, right? I would put it to you, you don't get Brexit if people's concerns about mass immigration in the 2000s and if people's concerns about things like the grooming gangs and other things are not deliberately suppressed.

30:21Francis Foster:People are not smeared as being racist for their opinions about not wanting illegal immigration. All of these things, in my opinion, whether you like them or not, are acceptable, reasonable positions, which, by the way, as you well know, left-wing politicians here and in the United States used to express. I mean, the idea that you can't have an open border has been universally accepted across the political spectrum, and then suddenly we're supposed to pretend that it's normal, that we've got tens of thousands of people coming in illegally. I'm a legal immigrant to this country. I don't understand why we have more than one illegal immigrant coming into this country, more than zero.

30:55Francis Foster:Like, it shouldn't be happening. So my point to you is, if we didn't have the suppression of the debate, and if we had, as you say, politicians who said, you know what, these grooming gangs that Sarah Champion is raising, this really is terrible. We're going to get into it. We're going to get stuck in. We're going to deal with it. We're going to stop this ever happening again. It's a travesty. And on that, I don't disagree with you. Right. On that, I don't disagree with you. Then you wouldn't get so much populism, is my point. If we didn't have mass immigration, you didn't have grooming gangs, and you didn't have them being covered up.

31:23Francis Foster:Is that fair? Well, the honest chance, I don't know. I don't know. Because let me just go back. You said something interesting there. You said that we were coming exactly how you described it, but Brexit happened because we allowed mass immigration and people. And we didn't allow people to be angry about that. Okay. It's not that we didn't allow people to be angry. I remember in the 2000s, under the Blair government, I remember Greg Clark being on Question Time saying, you know, I realize people have these concerns, but there's also, you know, and all of this stuff. It was talked about like people have concerns, but action wasn't taken.

31:59Francis Foster:It wasn't taken. We were promised, the people of this country were promised immigration down to the tens of thousands. They were promised it by labor politicians, conservative politicians. They voted against it in 2010, 2015, with Brexit, 2017, 2019, over and over. And it just kept going up and up and up. And you can understand why people get angry, can't you, in that situation? Yeah, I can. But at the same time, I can hold to the view that I think some of the anger is justified, but a lot of it is exaggerated and exploited. Well, those are both true and evidently. And let me just make it up. The other point I was going to make.

32:33So I think it was the 2001 campaign. So we win the election in 97, massive majority. And part of the debate on immigration was, I'll go back to my point about, you know, we needed immigration for the economy at that time. That's the message we were getting from business the whole time. And we were trying to be the party, the business-friendly Labour government. But I can remember, and this isn't just the diaries, I remember this. Margaret McDonagh, who was General Secretary of the Labour Party, sadly died since. I remember her coming in, and Margaret was one of those people who, even when we were in government, she was out canvassing every single weekend, right?

33:09She was an on-the-ground Labour person. I mean, I'll be honest, once Tony Blair got into government, you know, he didn't do that many constituency surgeries. You know, he was busy, he did loads of stuff. I was, you know, you do, you have to force yourself not to be attached to some extent. Margaret was out every single weekend. And I can remember she came back from one weekend, She'd been in Kent, and she was like, you know, this debate on immigration is becoming a real problem. We have got to do something about this. Now, I think our response to that at that time was political as opposed to policy.

33:47Francis Foster:That's what I'm saying. Yeah, and I think that is true. I think that is true because I think it was, so I think from memory, I can't remember what the policy was at the time, but I can remember going through the 2001 campaign. we had a very, very bespoke messaging campaign for some of these areas where it was a problem. Now, did we deal with the fundamentals? We tried. We tried. And even now, even now, today, you know, I follow German politics very, very closely. And the debate that's happening, and okay, there's Merkel. You know, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, a million Syrians are going to come in.

34:24There's going to be consequences, and there have been consequences. But even today, the German debate, in terms of one of the reasons why the German government is not doing well is because the economy is not doing very well. And one of the reasons why the economy is not doing very well is because they're not getting the right balances in the labour market. So what the politics are saying pushed them all out. And the economics are saying, hold on a minute, we're an ageing population. We're going to need more people coming in, working, paying taxes, etc. So the realities of these debates are not going to go away.

34:54No. And you said that when you first came here in 1996, immigration was not up here in terms of...

35:02Francis Foster:It was 55 ,000 a year, yeah. No, but in terms of where it was in political issues. Oh, yeah, 3%. Right, OK. And now it's right up there. Now, it's up there in part because of facts, but it's where I think it's... where the populist bit I find offensive is the way it's then been exploited. Fine. And that's where we... But isn't the issue is that if you guys and the Conservatives and everybody, if you'd fix the facts, there'd be nothing to exploit.

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37:35Francis Foster:If you'd fix the facts, there'd be nothing to exploit.

37:41i'm not even sure that's right you know if you think why not well because so if you'd your

37:47Francis Foster:judgment depends what your judgment of what you want the facts to be i don't want 55 50 000 people coming into this country illegally every year and i don't want them to be allowed to stay here once they come right okay is that a fair position well no well it might be a fair position depending on where you put it in a bigger context so but what's the benefit of illegal immigration we can separate mass immigration and maybe it's good for the economy. But illegal immigration, why is that happening and why is no one stopping it? Well, it's happening because of all the very, very difficult cultural economic flows right around the world.

38:21And we can go and, you know, wars and famines and climate's going to make it worse, by the way. So that's happening. I actually, if I were still involved today, I honestly don't think we're going to address this stuff country by country. I think there is going at some point have to be a kind of some kind of, whether it's a European level or some kind of even broader international level, we're not going to be able to deal with this in the way that we think we can. But so I think you say, so for example, let's take a hardline Brexit position or even a restore position where they're basically saying, okay, somebody turns up in Calais and some smuggler gets hold of them and they put them on a boat.

39:01Okay. Now, should they be coming into this country? No. Okay. Should we as a country have legal, decent, humane roots for people who... Like we did for Ukrainians. Yes. Or like we've done through time. For Hongkongans. Like we've done through time for people genuinely fleeing persecution. There should be. Okay. Would you be happy with a judgment that said, because we don't think any of them should come, that we as a government should be able to do anything to stop them?

39:33Francis Foster:Yes. It's our country. Sink them? I don't think it needs to come to that. No, it doesn't need to, but if that is... Well, hold on. You're using an extreme example. No, I'm using extreme examples because that's what extremists say. But no one here is extremist. We're having a debate with us. No, but you're basically, what I think you're doing is saying this is, we can agree that they shouldn't be coming. Okay. Where I think, but you're making that sound as quite a simple thing to bring out. Which it is. Which I believe it is, for the reasons I can explain. Okay, okay. So the Australians fixed this problem.

40:09Francis Foster:Yeah. They had tens of thousands of people coming, then Tony Abbott came in and he fixed it. Very, very little damage was done in the process. I think they had to turn some boats around. Some of the people smugglers capsized a few, but they rescued most of the people. There was some unpleasantness about holding some people on the island and blah, blah, blah. But overall, they dealt with their legal immigration problem. I know you don't like Trump. There's lots of things to dislike about President Trump. The one thing they've been able to do is close the border. It's doable. If you have people in charge of your country who say, this is our country, we are going to police its borders like we've done for thousands of years.

40:44Francis Foster:Come on. That's a reasonable position. It's a very reasonable position. And I'll tell you how I would today. So I've been talking to the very good guy called Gerald Knauss, who's a German and really studies this stuff in detail. And he's got a proposal, which I think has a lot of merit, which essentially is, if you're going to start from a position of they cannot come, okay, then there has to be, this is why I'm afraid I think Brexit has been such a disaster. Lots of reasons I think it's been a disaster. but one of them is you should be able to have sufficiently good relations with some of the countries within the European Union, right, that anybody who comes goes straight back.

41:25Okay, that is the only way you can fix this right now. And so I think, is that doable? I think it is probably doable. It's not doable in the context of this toxic political environment that we've got.

41:37Francis Foster:But it hasn't been done before either, right? It wasn't being done before, Brexit, either. Because we were, I'm being very frank about this, we wanted immigration. But what about illegal immigration? It was fairly low, actually, under your government. Well, illegal. Illegal immigration was fair. And you were deporting people. And this government is deporting more than the last lot. Yeah. So, but I think that the, I guess the bigger point I'm trying to make to you is that you have to put this in the context of the kind of country that you're trying to create. Sure. And what I worry about you, and you're right about the Australians, but Australia is a different geography, it's a different geopolitics.

42:22And there was, he took a lot of flack for doing what he did, fine. I think within the, where we are right now, I, let's agree on the premise that none of them need to come. Okay. Okay. And that the people who come to this country should be the people that we want to come. Okay. Let's agree on that. Sold. And then let's then, I think, try to build the relations with other European countries that essentially say, this is a problem we've got to crack together. Because what you've got to do is you've got to stop giving the motivation for coming. So the stuff that Shabana Mahmood is doing, where she's trying to send a message, look at the reality of the political problems that she's facing because of that.

43:05So what I'm trying to say to you is it is not as easy as it sounds.

43:09Francis Foster:Well, it depends. If you're a Labour Home Secretary, it's difficult because there's a lot of people on your side who are actually quite happy with illegal immigration. I don't think they're happy with illegal immigration. Okay, they will tolerate it because of other beliefs that they have about the importance of care and compassion, etc. Is that accurate? No, I don't think many people on the left are happy with illegal immigration. So what are the political problems that she has? Why are they happening? Well, because the political problems that she's having are happening because of a lot of MPs thinking that there's a real danger that we are being driven here by an unfair politics of the right.

43:44And that actually within this, you're going to project a very bad image of the United Kingdom and there are people that we should be coming in who won't want to come. It's part of it. Illegal immigrants who should come, but won't want to come. No, no, no. Oh, you mean other people? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or just about the set. In other words, she's trying to say it should be harder for you to come here and stay here. Okay? Yeah. And she's bringing forward policy proposals on that. And I think the politics of that are proving difficult because of people's fears about us actually saying we're putting up the barriers to the lot of you.

44:21Francis Foster:But we should be putting up barriers to illegal immigration. Yeah. Except where we choose to let people in. That's kind of what she's saying. But why is she facing problems from the Labour Party for saying this reasonable thing? This is the point you've made. Because there is their fear that this is then actually sending a broader message about what sort of people we are, what sort of country we want to be, in relation to legal immigration. But isn't the message we're sending is we're sensible people who will protect their country while choosing the people who come here based on what we want? So why is the Labour Party not willing to accept it?

44:55Francis Foster:Doesn't make any sense. Does that make sense to you? It makes sense. These are all like, I feel like we're having some, like, I'm saying like very reasonable things, aren't I? Yeah, but you're saying them, you're saying moderately reasonable things. In an unreasonable way. No, not even in an unreasonable way, but in a way that I think sometimes underestimates. The difficulty of the challenge. And the political consequences. But what I'm saying is, why are there political consequences in a Labour Party for doing a moderately reasonable, sensible thing? Because some of them don't think it's moderate and reasonable.

45:31They will say it's moderate and reasonable to do everything you can to stop illegal immigration. But they don't want to do it. But they don't think it's moderate or reasonable for Britain to put up the barriers on people that we do want here, that we deter from coming here, by putting them in the same boat. But why would stopping illegal immigration...

45:51Francis Foster:Are we going round in circles here? Yeah, we are, because what I'm trying to say is very simple. So why would... You're asking me to speak for the entirety of the parliamentary Labour Party. I'm asking you to confront a reality which I think exists on the left of British politics, which is there are a lot of people who are very comfortable with illegal immigration because it makes them feel like they're good people. It makes them feel like they're not those evil Farage and right-wingers. They're good moral people and therefore they're prepared for our country to have an open board. But I think that most of the Labour MPs who were elected at the last election, I don't put them in that camp at all.

46:24So I think that... Because the other thing that's going on with Shubhan and Mahmood is it's happening in the context of this, you know, churn and change within the Labour Party. So you've got Keir Starmer going, Andy Burnham's coming in, and people are manoeuvring, and people are trying to, you know, play their role in shaping the future of the Labour Party. I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with you. I don't think you are. But I think you're covering for these people

46:46Francis Foster:and the extreme views that they have. Well, maybe that's because... I'm not covering for them, but... If you said there's racists within the right of British politics who want to deport everyone, I'd say, yeah, clearly. But when we talk about the far left in this country, people want to pretend it doesn't exist and they don't have this radical agenda when it comes to immigration. So, for example, for me, when you talk about the radical agenda on the left, I'd be far more upset, for example, about the way that anti-Semitism developed on the parts of the far left. I think some of the way that, I mean, I abhor so much of what, for example, the Israeli government has done and is doing.

47:33But at the same time, I really worry about the extent that in some parts of the left, that has turned into a little bit of a resurgence of the anti-Semitism that we saw during the Corbyn.

47:43Francis Foster:Alisa, I've been hogging the mic for ages, and I don't want to go around in circles. But the reason I'm... No, I know the reason. I know the reason. I'm not sure you do. Let me just lay it out, right? My point, the populism conversation is very important. I am not a fan of populism because I agree with you that populism very often is about not solutions, but signaling in order to get elected to then not be able to actually do the things you claim to. Or even not to get elected, just to make money. Fine. Actually, we'll talk about the money part in a bit. But whatever. it's not actually likely to solve the problems this country faces.

48:14Francis Foster:And I want to solve the problem this country faces, as you do, right? But the point I'm trying to make to you is Shabana Mahmood is trying to deal with the issue of illegal immigration. Other people pretend or try to deal with the issue of illegal immigration. And until they do, populism is not going away. Because populism is not actually being driven by the evil right wing, it's being driven by the reality that we have tens of thousands of people coming in, We're paying billions of pounds just for hotels and now HMOs and all these other things. You have people committing crimes, heinous crimes.

48:49Francis Foster:Yes, they're amplified by the media, but we'd want the media to cover what's happening, right? Until you fix that, this isn't going away. Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. Okay, cool. And let me say as well, just on the PLP, I don't talk to as many MPs as I used to, okay? Right now, if I was an MP, would I be broadly backing Shabana Mahmood and what she's trying to do? Yes. Do I think that the people who are trying to block her from doing that are doing so for sort of... Ideological reasons. No, I don't think it's ideological. I think you're saying it's more sort of virtue signaling and trying to say that's a divide that we want to have with the right.

49:32I don't think that's a good divide to have with the right.

49:33Francis Foster:No, I think they believe in compassion and they think that a good person doesn't deny anyone entry into this country. I didn't think that. So what do they think? Well, you'd have to get them on. I mean, what I feel you're doing is you're asking me to... I'm seeing if you're willing to acknowledge that on the left there exists an ideological extremism about these issues that I think exist. You don't think it exists? That's fine. No, I don't think many of those Labour MPs are ideologically extreme on these issues. I think there is ideological extremism. I relate it more to other issues. But I think what Shabana Mahmood is trying to do is address the issue, address it in a fair, reasonable, legal way.

50:17I would like there to be much more of an international and particularly European approach to this, which I think we could do, which would be based upon the idea, You know, actually, nobody needs to come here. OK, and I think you do that by, and this is part of what she's trying to do on the policy front, is signs of deterrence. OK, no point coming here. But the really, you'll only get that message through eventually if people actually think, if I go there, I'm going to go to Denmark. I'm going to go to Germany. I'm not going to go to Rwanda. I'm going to go back where I came from in the European Union.

50:51And I think that is, you know, we lost the Dublin Convention and that's gone. and I think that the... Anyway, I think we're going around in circles on this. But you can't expect me to defend positions of... You've got to talk to them. Let's talk about underwear. Nobody wants to. Nobody thinks about it. Everybody just wears whatever turned up in the multi-pack and calls it a dame, which is a shame because there are solutions. That's why I want to talk about sheath. S-H-E-A-T-H. Sheath.com. It's underwear built around a dual pouch system. What that means in plain English, everything stays where it should be.

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52:45They're the people who are flocking to restore.

52:51um no you hear people saying that for sure for sure so the question then is does jeremy corbyn did jeremy corbyn have contempt for those sorts of people i don't think he does i don't think he does i'll tell you what i think people felt i can remember this but i you probably know i support burnley football club i go to burnley a lot i'm west ham we've got the same colors we're both first first game of the season hey the um but i can remember going to burnley a lot during that Corbyn period. And, I mean, it's, you know, even somebody like me, who has been right in the centre of the establishment, there's certain things you've got to do, OK?

53:32If you're a leader of the Labour Party, I don't care what your views are, if you're an official government function and the national anthem's being sung, you sing it, OK? Unless you want to come out and say, as part of your politics, if I become prime minister, I'm absolutely determined to get rid of the monarchy. So I think that first go, people were thinking, this guy is not serious. That was a big, and I don't think he understood why that was such a big thing at the time. Do you remember that service he went to? And then I think there's a thing about military that I think people like the military, respect the military, want the military to be properly supported by their politicians.

54:20Which it needs to be for our national security. Totally. And if they felt that, I guess they, I think there was a feeling, I don't think this was just in working class people, by the way, but a feeling of, you know, well, who's, you know, you saw some of the stuff with, was it the Salisbury attack? Was he leader of the Labour Party then when it was like, you know, well, we've got to get this properly investigated. It's like, hold on a minute, you've got our intelligence service saying this, Russians are saying this, and you say, well, you know, could be one, could be the other. I think that sort of stuff got through.

54:54But I don't think, look, I know a lot of working class people who really, really like Jeremy Corbyn because they felt he's for us, he stands for us. He's not, you know, they look at people like me, some of them, or certainly Tony, and the thing you lot left us. They do say that, okay? Now, I don't think we did, but I understand why because of what their lives have become. I think for a lot of those people, we made their lives, the policies that we pursued made their lives a lot better, okay? And I can point to tons of stuff that we did. But did, within what they saw of us, did they think there was a sort of disconnect?

55:32I think that disconnect was there. Then I think it grew. And I don't think, I wouldn't just put it on Jeremy Corbyn. Far from it. No, I'm not putting it on Jeremy Corbyn. I'm putting it on the left in general. For instance, we can talk about progressivism, wokeism, for example, terms like white privilege. A lot of my mates and people that I know and people who listen to this podcast, I remember I was walking down the street in North London. There was a guy, this is a number of years ago, came up to me. And there's a Labour and he was talking about growing up on a council estate in Middlesbrough, single mum.

56:04And he wanted to talk to me about white privilege. And at one point I thought, mate, I'm not the one saying these views. He was like, why am I privileged because I'm white when I grew up in poverty? Real poverty. And I looked around and most of the people I knew came from poverty. We had no privilege. And yet people within the Labour Party, people within the intelligentsia, the modern left, are pointing the finger at me and telling me I'm privileged. And that really angered people. Yeah, I get that. But were they really pointing the finger at me? Yes. Yes. Yes, they were. Yes, they were. I'm not sure.

56:35Oh, come on. Come on. I'm really not sure. You see, this is what I think. Come on. No, I think this whole woke debate is, I find it, and what does it even mean? Woke is about believing in playing a role in trying to deliver some kind of social justice. That is what woke is meant to mean. Woke has become a catch-all term of abuse.

56:59Francis Foster:Not really. Yes, it has. I can define it for you if you like. Go on, then define it. It's a hierarchy of oppression. It says different groups are oppressed at different levels. And I can look at your skin colour and immediately tell whether you're an oppressor or you're oppressed. You happen to be a straight white man, therefore you're the oppressor. I happen to be a black trans lesbian, therefore I'm oppressed. And that's the way this debate is being done. That's the way the debate is being done. Hold on, Alistair, hold on. The debate. Alistair, chill out. Not only is it the way the debate is being done, we see it in policing.

57:29Francis Foster:not only in the way the policing is being practiced, but in the instructions police officers get. They're explicitly told not to treat people equally. Explicitly. Honestly, this stuff is just, it's dementing. It's absolutely dementing. That's the quotes from the police's own instructions. No, okay, and it may be, and it may be because you found one document where some guy who's writing some guidance for police is... It's the College of Police and Guidance. Okay, okay, wait a minute. This is how police officers are trained. Okay, okay. Why are you saying okay like I'm making something up? Because I think...

58:02Have you looked into it? Not as deeply as you have. Well, I think you should. Well, maybe I should, but I... Because then you wouldn't dismiss the factual things I'm saying out of hand,

58:10Francis Foster:which is what you're doing. Let me dismiss it in my own way. Go ahead. Right, okay. He's going to hog the microphone again. I know. This is outrageous to me. You haven't looked into this. No, I'm aware of the issue. So why are you dismissing it? Because I think two things. First of all, I think... That's what people mean when they say woke. It's not a catch-all phrase. They mean two-tier treatment. It is a catch-all phrase. No, they don't. They call you woke if you sort of campaign for gay rights. Not at all. Yes, they do. There's loads of gay people who use this phrase woke. Okay, they may do.

58:42Come back to the police. You've got your definition. Come back to the police. I'll come back to the police. Right. So, two big points I would make about the police. And they may sound slightly contradictory. The first is, I think the police get a very, very hard time in our country. I agree. Okay? And I am broadly supportive of most police officers. But like any organisation, there are some really bad people in there and they've got to be reaching out. Absolutely. Agreed. The second thing I would say is that if there is a race issue within policing in this country, it is not directed against white people.

59:19It's directed against both people, both groups. But if you have to make a judgment as to who comes off worse in our policing and criminal justice system, it is not in the middle of my period. Why do you have to make that judgment? I'm making that judgment because you've just made a judgment. Wait. You've just made a judgment based upon one piece of guidance. Let me add two words to my sentence.

59:38Francis Foster:Let me add two words to my sentence. Why do you have to make a judgment about which race should get preferential treatment when the standard should be... I'm not. No, but... I'm saying that's what happens. The standard should be that we're all equal under the law. Correct. But the guidance currently is to many police forces in this country that we're not all equal under the law. They're saying you treat people differently in the way that you handle them. That is people not being equal under the law. You have to be conscious. You have to be conscious of certain things. You have to be conscious of how you deal with them.

1:00:06Look, I've not got into it as deeply as you because when that was happening, I can't remember whether it was around Southampton or it was around, I can't remember even when that came to light, right? But as that was happening, I thought, here we go again. We are going to get something taken out of context, twisted into a debate that says the police are all anti-white. But no one is saying that. Yes, that's exactly what was being said.

1:00:30Francis Foster:Let me correct myself. No one in this room is saying that. But that's why we're having this particular debate. That's not why we're having this debate. We're having this debate because the police guidance in this country is to treat people differently. Well, the police all operate and should operate under the law, treating everybody equally. Okay. But I could say the same. Does that mean, does that mean that, for example, policemen aren't told that, so let's just give you an example. When the Henry Novak situation, okay, now they all get trained and they all get guidance. And what it seems to me, I don't know because I wasn't there and I didn't follow the court case and I haven't read the transcripts.

1:01:07But from what I have gathered from that, the policemen trained arrive at a scene, They have been conditioned to expect something by what they think has been happening. And they then go and deal with it in the way they deal with it. Quite quickly, it seems to me, realise they made a mistake and then try to get back in a decent place. As a result of which, not just they, but police officers who were not even there, including one that has actually retired from the police force, is then being hounded. Well, that's obviously wrong. Yes, of course it's wrong. But my point is that I think that if I'm, that's why I think these debates are going to be really careful about how you conduct them.

1:01:53Francis Foster:And we are very careful. That's why I'm talking about specific guidance. And let me make one other point. We, this show has a lot of police officers who listen to us. I had a guy come up to me, actually used to do personal, he used to do close protection for prime ministers. I think he did Keir Starmer. The police officers who listen to us and who write into us and who come up to us in the street, they all say that the College of Policing and the guidance police officers received is absolutely rife with this stuff. With DEI and the idea that different groups of people should be treated differently.

1:02:23Francis Foster:And I really hope people like you should take it more seriously. I really think you should. Because, again, I'm making very reasonable points. I'm not having a go at you. I'm not saying you're woke or anything like that. But I think sometimes people dismiss these things out of hand when there's quite a lot of evidence now that in hiring, in quotas, in policing, in many different areas now, we do not have equal treatment for different groups. Well, I would argue, I would argue, that I could find, you could find cases where, you mentioned the DEI thing. I think the extent to which Trump in particular, but it's happening here as well, has weaponized this DEI debate, not to create equality, but actually to create division, to create hate, to spread hate, I absolutely despise the way that they do it.

1:03:12So I guess that pushes me into a place where I'm going to be more sympathetic towards somebody who comes along to me and says, you know what, I'm a young black woman, and actually I feel I don't get treated well by the police. But it shouldn't do. I know it shouldn't. It shouldn't do, Alistair, because this is the problem. But I think that is closer. Can I just make my point? Because those people who were the traditional Labour voters, like people I grew up with, like the bloke that I'm talking about, grew up in Middlesbrough, who just go, Labour don't represent me. Yeah, but hold on, hold on.

1:03:43We can all, we'll all have met people who tell us all sorts of things when they stop us in the street, okay? I'll give you another one. You talk about the white working class. I've got loads of football matches, okay? And you'll hear lots and lots of white working class people say they don't like the way that they're treated by the police when they're just trying to have a day out of the football, okay? My point is that the way you were framing this for me is how I was taking this, is that because of DEI, that policing in this country has become two-tier, phrase you used, by which we mean... I didn't say two-tier.

1:04:18Oh, sorry, I thought you did. Well, maybe you were quoting something else. Sorry, sorry. Okay, two-tier policing, two-tier care, all this stuff.

1:04:26Francis Foster:It rhymes, so that's why it took off, I think. Well, yeah, for sure. And that's how populist communication works. It's the way non-populist communication works. That's how all communication works. Exactly, exactly, okay. But so, and I would argue that the real, if there is two-tier policing, okay, and let's agree that there is. Okay. And let's agree that it's all bad. Of course. Okay, right? It's bad when black people are not treated fairly, right? Correct. So it's also bad when other groups of people are not treated fairly. That's all I'm saying. What is not bad is if when the police are out doing a pride march.

1:05:00That they're basically told, you have to understand what they're protesting for. You have to understand that they're doing something a bit different to that march they did last week, which was Tommy Robinson's mob. So I think that's what that guidance is about. That's not what that guidance is about. Well, okay. I'll go away and read it. How about that? Yeah, that's great. I'd appreciate that. I've worked with the police. Of course. And I've worked with the police federation. And one of the reasons I do work with the police is because I think they get treated really badly by the media. I couldn't agree more.

1:05:29the public. I was talking to a police guy the other day who is not even in a big city. He's in quite a small town. And he told me that in the last week, he'd been spat at eight times. Nobody here thinks that's obviously disgusting. Right. No. And I didn't ask him. I didn't ask him what was the colour of the people who spoke to you. Okay.

1:05:58Francis Foster:Well, obviously, Why would you ask that? But he told me. Okay. Okay. And he said there were all but one were white. Yeah. Okay. It's a majority white country, of course. Yeah. Okay. But my point is, I could take that if I wanted to, and I could build a debate about it. But that's not what we're doing. No, I know it's not what you're doing. I know it's not what you're doing. But I'm saying the people that we were talking about earlier, that is what they do. That is what's happened in the United States. And that's why you then end up with our souls like Pete Hexerth removing the pictures of people like, you know.

1:06:31Why have we brought Pete Hexerth? We're talking about Britain, mate. We're talking about our country.

1:06:35Francis Foster:We're talking about DEI. In this country. Okay. We're talking about this country, right? We're talking about populism. In this country. We're talking about this country, right? And I'm not talking about abroad. And the only point I made to you is... You didn't stop me talking about Germany. I just don't. The issue is that people always go to Trump or head sex or other people. Because they're so powerful in our debate. We're just talking about policing in this country and other areas where there hasn't, you know, the BBC has internships for only non-white people, etc. Like this has been going on.

1:07:03Francis Foster:We started with woke. Remember, this is how this bit of the conversation started. It's not a look. There's probably some people who use it as a catchall phrase in the same way, by the way, that people on the left use the word racist as a catchall phrase to describe people who are actually racist. and also people who oppose mass immigration. There are some people who do that, right? Just because some people use a word inappropriately doesn't mean that that word is wrong. Okay. So I gave you a definition of woke. No, but let me just jump in there, though. Go ahead. You're doing, say, it's left and right, and it's sort of both sides, isn't it?

1:07:31It is. I don't think you have that. So let's say there is a media of the left, okay?

1:07:37Francis Foster:A media of the left. A media of the left. Say Guardian, Mirror, yeah. They don't do that. What? I don't think they do that. Does the media of the right do that in relation to woke? Alistair, the media of the left and the people on the left and the influences and the political figures and commentators, including people like David Lammy, called conservatives who were pro-Brexit. Now, Francis and I both voted Remain. OK, they called them worse than Nazis. Do you remember David Lammy said the ERG are worse than Nazis? No, I don't remember that. He did that on the Andrew Marr show. We'll put a clip in here.

1:08:07Francis Foster:OK. Right. By implication, you're comparing the ERG to the Nazi party or at least to the South African racists. Now, whatever you think about the ERG, that was an unacceptable comparison, wasn't it? Andrew, I would say that that wasn't strong enough. In 1938, there were allies who hatched a plan for Hitler to annex part of Czechoslovakia. And Churchill said no, and he stood alone. He did? We must not appease. We're in a situation now, and let me just be clear, I'm an ethnic minority. We have in the ERG, in Jacobs Rees-Mogg, someone who is happy to put onto his webpages the horrible, racist AFD party, a party that's Islamophobic and on the far right of the German system.

1:08:59They're happy to use the phrase grand wizard. KKK is what it evokes to me when I think of that phrase and the deep south. I'm sorry, but very, very seriously, of course we should not appease that. Of course we should not appease that.

1:09:14Francis Foster:People on the left and people on the right use these terms in order to smear their opponents and to misrepresent the debate. That's what they do. That's what everyone does. So what we're saying, what you're saying, essentially... Is something else. No, what you're saying is they're both as bad as each other. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying, I think, is that these people have more power in this debate than these people. That's what I'm saying. The right-wing media has more power than the left-wing media. The right-wing weaponisation of their definition of woke has had way more cultural influence than anything these people have said.

1:09:47Francis Foster:Some people might argue that's because it's accurate to what's happening on the ground. When new institutions are infested with DEI, when British history is being denigrated, when, you know, we're recording this before the Norway game, right? England playing Norway. The Norwegians walk around in helmets, right? With the horns. The Scots walk around in kilts. Right, but hold on a second. The Norwegians are walking around in helmets, which is a throwback to the Viking Age. Vikings, as you well know, were raping, pillaging, including this country. No one is asking them for reparations. British people are being told they need to pay reparations all day, every day.

1:10:21Francis Foster:How many British people? All British people are being told that we need to pay reparations. No, how many British people are demanding that? Labour MPs, like what's her name, something, Bell Ribeiro? What's her name? she's saying that we need to pay reparations it's an ongoing live debate it's not that big it's not that big if you don't even know the name of the mp who's calling for it she's just not very important to me but i remember she's important a labor mp is calling for this country to pay reparations okay yes reparations will involve some form of money but it's got to involve complete system change we cannot be content with people handing us essentially scraps off their table when you look at what they're sending and say that we are okay and let people bypass us, the community people, and I think the community is so important.

1:11:10I want you to all know that it was the community that came to me to set up the all-party parliamentary group for African reparations.

1:11:18Francis Foster:People go on the BBC and explain why it's important. It's been a live debate. You can't deny that. No, I would argue. No one's asking Norwegians for reparations or the Italians for the Roman invasion, right? So you put all this together, people get a picture, don't you think? Well, you get whatever picture you want out of a very complicated landscape. What's wrong with the picture? Because I think it, well, one, I think it trivialises history. History is very, very important within current politics. And history ultimately is about judgment. Is our history a sort of, you know, wonderful, perfect story of the greatest country in the world?

1:11:55No, no more, any more than the Americans. Of course. The debate around the 250th anniversary of America. This is why I worry, you say, don't go on about Hexer than Trump, but the picture of America that Trump is trying to, we are talking in his case about the erasure of history, the erasure of history.

1:12:11Francis Foster:But why are we talking about another country? We're talking about this country. We just talk about Norway. No, comparing it to England. I'm saying other countries are not forced to apologise for the history in the way the British people are. Some do. The Australians are The Australians did a massive apology recently for their history. Fine. Australia. But Australia is part of the Anglosphere. This is happening everywhere in the Anglosphere. Okay. There's a double standard is what I'm getting at. Okay. I don't know. See, whenever I make a good point, you just go, okay, I don't know. I haven't read the guidance.

1:12:43No, because, I mean, I don't know if this is what you do, but it's like, you make the point. We have the debate about the point. And then you make the point again. No, I'm just asking you, you concede that I'm right on this. That's all I want. That's all I want. I think a lot of things that you say, you may have some right on your side, but I think you way oversimplify quite a lot of these issues to make it feel... I'm happy for you to explain why it's more complicated.

1:13:05Francis Foster:But you don't. You just say, OK, I've read the guidance. Because history is complicated. Of course. We have loads of historians on the show for that reason. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So anyway, talk to them about it. It's better.

1:13:19You're the one who keeps saying you don't want to hog the bike. No, no, I want to hog the bike. I'm worried about this. Yeah, I'm worried about you. Okay, so the point that I was going to talk about, and you were like, okay, it's anecdotal evidence. All right, fair enough. But you cannot deny that a large part of why populism has flourished is because the working class feel angry and alienated, in particular because they feel that the Labour Party no longer represent them. We have to accept that that is a mainstream position. And the Conservative Party. Well, exactly. No, but it's a lot of people.

1:13:50Yeah, it is. Yeah. No, we have to accept. What I would say, we have to accept that large swathes of the British public and the European public and the American public are losing faith in the ability of politics to deliver the improvements in their lives that politicians keep promising. Right. And we had a long period of Labour government. We had a long period of Tory government. We've now had a Labour government again. And they both have been caught up in that. alongside that we have a less tribal population that just as it shops around for which tv programs to watch and who to date and all this other stuff that technology has brought we've also we're seeing an erosion or certainly a slow but accelerating breakdown in political tribalism as well so that people no longer think, I am Labour, I am Tory, I am Lib Dem.

1:14:49They think, well, I'm going to just, you know, take a look. We also have, I think, as a consequence of the nature of the media in this country, I think we have a really well-developed cynicism. And I think it's gone from scepticism to cynicism about the ability of anybody to do anything good for them. Political parties have got to address that. They've got to deal with that. My point is, populism is not the answer. Right-wing populism is not the answer. Left-wing populism is not the answer. Look, I agree with you. You don't need to explain to me why right - or left-wing populism is not the answer.

1:15:22Everyone can drink. Now, my mother's Venezuelan. I've seen left-wing populism in action. I know where it leads. It's nowhere good, which is why I'm terrified of Polanski. And again, people drink again. I used to be a teacher. I taught for 12 years in deprived communities from places like Newham and Lambeth, really poor places. the thing is and when I talk to people in those communities particularly white working class people there was an anger so I'll give you an example this is a stat the people the cohort that do the worst in schools in this country oh yeah are white working class boys yeah I never once in my 12 years of education ever attended anything which dealt with that now if that was any other cohort or part of the kids that we taught, that would have been spoken about honestly.

1:16:10But because... Where were you teaching? I was teaching in Newham and I was teaching in Lambeth. But the London Schools Initiative that we did was in part about addressing that. That was a very, very big part of that. And that was one of the big... One of the reasons why we got... We actually... One of this sort of North-South divide, so-called, is because actually the standards in London went up a lot better. And that was because of the specific London strategy we brought forward, which was partly about that. So I think this is one of those, I think you'll be very, look, don't get me wrong, I think that there's no doubt, I go into schools all the time, okay, and you hear it from headteachers everywhere that where we're really, really struggling is with white working class kids, okay?

1:16:48So we agree on that. And I would also agree, but I don't think it's because there's a kind of hierarchy necessarily. I think a lot of it is, I think, for example, A lot of them will tell you that some of the Asian kids in particular have got parents who are absolutely driven in a way that a lot of the white working class parents aren't. Totally fair, and immigrants, first generation immigrants in particular. You have got to get an education. This is your route to a better life, etc. Now, when I was growing up, both my parents were Scottish, I remember when they were obsessive about education and Scotland had this amazing reputation for education.

1:17:33That's gone. That's gone. So I'm not disagreeing with you about that being a specific problem. And in terms of what government policy solutions should be, right now I don't think they're big enough and bold enough. I mean I honestly do worry about the nature of the education that we're giving kids at the moment because I don't think it's remotely it's so divorced from the pace at which the world is developing and changing so you know anyway we're violently agreeing yeah we are violently agreeing but also I'll be honest with you I think a lot of these should we just call them progressive strategies are actually deeply unhelpful so for instance this was about six seven years ago I attended a seminar, well I didn't attend, I was forced to attend, on how to teach black boys.

1:18:25And I got so angry because halfway through it was basically this woman at the front explaining to me why I needed lower educational standards to teach the black boys in my classroom. And I remember at the end putting my hand up and going, would you deliver this seminar at Eton College where I know black boys go to? Have you been asked? She was like, no. and it was like, oh, but you know, you have to expect this, there needs to be different standards. And I'm like, no, the standards should be applicable. It shouldn't matter whether it's a black boy, an Asian boy, a white girl, you treat everybody exactly the same.

1:19:04When you come through the doors of the classroom, there is no colour, there is, I'm treating you fairly. Look, that sounds bonkersville to me, right? That's what people mean by two-tier. Yeah, okay. But you'd nonetheless agree that where the data is showing you in so many schools that something is going wrong in the education of white working class kids, there have to be strategies to address that.

1:19:30Francis Foster:And that's what Francis is saying is there isn't. So when we talk about white working class boys underperforming, oh, it's the culture, it's the parents, it's the whatever. For every other group, there's a government program that says this particular community is marginalized, we need to help them. And that's what people mean by two-tier. That's what they mean. They might. Some of them do. Yeah. We don't. Listen. We don't. What I love about the way you speak, right, none of us can speak for everybody. That's what they mean. Who are they? A lot of the people who speak about these issues. Right, that's what they mean.

1:20:08Francis Foster:What they mean is there is different treatment of different groups and they connect it to work. But remember, we started this with woke. Woke, in my definition that I gave you, is a hierarchy of who's more oppressed than whom. And therefore, different people get different treatment. And what people are saying is the government policy in schools, in policing and everywhere else is a product of that worldview, which is implemented in the school system, in policing, in government, in the BBC, etc., through DEI and other initiatives, which are explicitly designed to do this. Well, the school I was in three days ago, the head was very, very clear with me.

1:20:48It was a very mixed, multiracial, multicultural school in London. He was very clear with me. He says that where we're putting most of our energies right now is with special educational needs and white working class kids. And does that mean? But the other thing I think you've got to understand or accept is I mentioned the difference with France, okay? I think we have developed multiculturalism in a way that we should celebrate. And I think it is an incredible success story for this country. What do you mean by multiculturalism? What I mean by the fact is, what I mean by multiculturalism, what I mean by multiculturalism, and maybe this is particular because all my kids went to schools in London, that you talked about, you both said, you know, you've got to be kind of blind to color.

1:21:33I think in the schools I'm talking about, there is a blindness to color. But that's monoculturalism.

1:21:40Francis Foster:That's when everyone's British. They're not all British. Let me give you a very example. I remember my mum, who's now dead, but she... My daughter, Grace, was still at school. She's in her 30s now. This is a long time ago. So it was already good by my perspective, right? And some of my daughter's best friends were from Kosovo because we had the war in Kosovo and lots of Kosovoans came over. Dua Lipa being one of them. And they were at school together. and then you have the so my daughter's circle of friends I remember she came around with her friends, four or five of them and my mum was there in her 70s or 80s or whatever it was and Grace later when they were all gone my mum was asking them about them and she was saying and Grace mentioned Lauren and my mum said which one was Lauren?

1:22:38and Grace went through all these different descriptions and explanations, and the one who said this, and the one who said the one who stood there. What she didn't say was that she was black. She was the only black girl in that small group of kids, right? And that's what I meant by, maybe that's mono, multi-racist. Multi-ethnic society.

1:23:01Francis Foster:But that's why I asked you the distinction between, because the reason that Angela Merkel and David Cameron and all came out and said multiculturalism has failed, is what they were saying is in a multi-ethnic society, which no one here has a problem with, right? It would be kind of silly. Well, some people do. No one here, here. Oh, here. No one here has a problem with. The issue is, do you encourage everybody to buy into a single culture or do you kind of say, well, you just get on with it and, you know, you can stay whatever culture you came from three generations ago and not integrate? You can't do both.

1:23:31Francis Foster:No, you can't. I can tell you as an immigrant myself, you can't do both. You either integrate or you don't. You either integrate or you don't. You either teach your children that they're British and to become more British, or you don't. And that's where a lot of the community... I really don't agree with that. What do you mean? What do you mean you don't agree with it? I think if... Well, look, I mentioned my parents are Scots. Okay. Okay? Well, I can see you're non-integrated because you don't support England, mate. There you go. There you go. That's my point. You've retained your identity as Scottish.

1:24:05Francis Foster:Correct. That's fine. Yeah. Right. What's wrong with retaining my identity as... Because Scotland is part of the British Isles. And if you were Russian, if I were Russian and I told my children that they're Russian and that's what they are and they didn't... No, no, you teach them they're British, but you teach them that they've got Russian heritage. That's right. That's exactly what I'm saying. But they're British first. Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. Okay. Multiculturalism is when you really don't care so much about the British part and it's your ethnic identity, your religious identity that's most important.

1:24:32Francis Foster:But I don't think... What you shouldn't do is make people feel they either have to forget or minimise the importance. No, no, no. No, OK. Well, let's agree. We're agreeing. Well, well. Yeah, yeah. Kind of. Kind of. Kind of. Alisson, you've been very generous with your time and they've been great sport. We appreciate you coming on. We'd love to have you back on again at some point if you'll tolerate it. Before... Let him talk a bit more the next time. The next time. The next time. We'll let him talk now. Let them talk now. So this is a question. If you were in charge of the Labour Party, I think the way to solve populism is to engage with the working class voters who feel left behind, who feel that the left haven't represented them, have ignored them.

1:25:19Now, you can make the arguments of whether they have, whether they haven't. But the reality is that's the way they feel. If you were the leader of the Labour Party, let's say you're Andy Burnham, you know you're from Wigan where my dad's from how do you engage with those people when we can look and we can say this objectively and I think it's fair Keir Starmer certainly hasn't done that Corbyn hasn't done that really no lay believer has done that since your boss a lot of MPs do it don't rule out the role of MPs because they're living in those prostitutes and they're the ones who probably should be doing a better job of making sure the leadership gets exactly what's going on in these places Look, I think you can see that Andy Burnham is, to some extent, doing that already, trying to do that as part of his messaging.

1:26:06You know, he's talking about the places that have been left behind. As he said, what he'll find once he becomes prime minister is bloody hard to engage with a lot of people. You've got to be doing that in different ways. But I think that I wouldn't disagree. I wouldn't disagree. I think that the, if you think about why a lot of people have, I mean, let's be honest, most of the support that's improved reformed reputation and standing up until the current day buckle, where I think they're in real trouble, by the way, but part of that for now, is actually there's been Tories going to reform. Most of the people who vote in reform, most of them, very substantial majority, have never voted Labour and say they never would okay but some people have gone from Labour to reforms you've got to think about how do we get those people back how do we maybe get some of these people to think about voting Labour and how do we get people who just fed up with politics generally to be more inspired by what we're trying to do so that's a big part of what Burnham has to do what I wouldn't do is accept the narrative that we've as it were deliberately left you behind what i think they should do and i hope will do is actually to focus far more so for example in in education and to be fair to bridget i think she's tried to do this but i don't think that that she's really cut through on it it is actually to be saying look we really haven't we've got to be open about this center the problem with white working class kids and this is how we're going to try to try to address it so you do have to engage more with both of the kids and their parents on that.

1:27:42I think in relation to, you know, the community, we're all very kind of local in the way we live our lives. Most people are, it's about their communities. And I think you've really got to understand why people feel that when they see their dirty streets, when they are aware of low level crime, when they're aware of a high street that used to be kind of vibrant, but then what What you can't do is say, that's because we've left you behind. I think you've also got to confront people with the reality of the choices that we all make. So for example, the high street, to me, and the sort of mess that it's in, it's the consequence of all sorts of things.

1:28:20But one of them is the fact that we spend all our time on the bloody internet barn on Amazon. Another one is that we've liberalised gambling to an extent that is off the scale. So there's these gambling shops everywhere. you've got the vapes and then you've got the charity shops because charity has become such a fundamental part of delivering basic public services so you've got to be addressing all of the issues that have led to something that everybody's sitting in their community thinking I don't like the look of this I don't like the feel of this so we're agreeing as well I'm keeping silent okay but the problem is is no political party has done this because I feel that there is a problem in politics with honesty and this is why, and that created a vacuum, which is what populism has filled, which is no political party has actually, very few people in politics have had the balls or the talent to go, this is why we are where we are and these are the solutions.

1:29:24So that when people feel that things are going wrong, they don't understand why, They don't understand why there's more potholes in the road. They don't understand why they feel poorer, why they go to the supermarket and their money doesn't go as far as it can. But what they do get from that is the feeling that they're being screwed. So when a populist comes along, whether it's Zach or Nigel, whoever else, the feeling is ripe to be exploited, if that's how you want to frame it. Well, I think one of the... I think one of the really important roles of a political leader that's not been played very well for quite a long time is that and this this i don't want this to sound patronizing it's not meant to but i think one of the roles of the political leader is to is to educate the public totally about the reasons why decisions are being made i think we've got to and thatch used to do that tony used to do that okay clinton used to do that.

1:30:23Reagan used to do that. Now, in a very kind of folksy sort of way, but you set out big arguments about why things are as they are. Now, in the knowledge that, you'll do that by possibly making a 60-minute speech, doing a 60-minute interview, writing a book. In the knowledge that, that is going to get distilled into that on social media, that by one opponent, that by another. You've got to be bigger and better than all of that. Yeah. You've got to. And even though Trump is a nightmare and I hate most of what he stands for, he has at least shown a way of how you can message. And it's easier if you're the American president and you don't care about telling the truth and all that.

1:31:06But I think our politicians in Europe underestimate the extent to which they still have the power to do that. I think they've all got too scared to challenge. Yeah. Too scared to tell the public. Sometimes you've got to face up to this. I don't think we're remotely honest at the moment with the public about the nature of our security situation, both on defence in relation to the Russian threat. I think we're going to face some really, really difficult choices pretty soon. And the economics of our country. And the other one that we haven't really talked about is, I think we're walking away from the climate debate, which I think is as dangerous as anything we face.

1:31:49So I think there is, and I think the public, if you're, if you talk about being on, and of course, honestly, there is, you know, in politics and that people say they're all liars, they're not all liars, but what they are in all the parties is part of a team, should be part of a team. So sometimes you can't necessarily always say what you totally think. You can't always give out every angle of every problem that you're trying to highlight. But you can do far more than we get in the debate now. So I would hope, I really want Andy Burnham to be a bit like Mark Carney is being in Canada. Mark Carney in Canada is setting out some really big choices that Canada's facing and he's saying where he wants to go and he's saying where he wants to lead.

1:32:40And I think we've got to get back to that kind of approach in politics. He's still very good at the tweet and he's very good at the 30-second TikTok video. But this bigger stuff is where I think our apologies have gone on, the lack of it. And the real challenge Labour are going to have is dealing with economics. Because this country is on a precipice when it comes to economics. And to be fair, the Tories didn't want to talk about it either. But we're going to have to tackle it soon or we're in real danger of going bankrupt. Well, look at the debt, man. It's crazy. The debt is crazy. I agree with that.

1:33:11I agree with that. But that's another one. I mean, if I... It is an extraordinary thing that Keir Starmer's gone from a landslide to leaving the door in two years. It's extraordinary, right? I think if there was one... There's not one moment. There's, you know, it's a kind of whole catalogue of stuff, good and bad, that you can point to. So, well, that was important. But I think if I had to pick one, it probably was the moment at which he got defeated on welfare.

1:33:38Francis Foster:Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because people thought, hmm, OK. And even though people might, most reasonable, fair people think that if you're really struggling, you should be entitled to get benefits. And if you're old and sick and all that stuff, they get that. But it just felt, well, hold on a minute. You've put our national insurance up because you said there was this black hole. And now we've got this big problem with defence, which we understand. But we've got to pay for it like this. I don't really understand it. I think that was, so that's back to the point about the MPs. That was massive.

1:34:09And that was back to the point about the MPs. It's these MPs you should be talking to.

1:34:12Francis Foster:honestly you've been very generous can we touch on one or two other things you mentioned just because i think they're really worth exploring as long as it doesn't take 20 minutes going around in circles with your view then you're just going to have to admit when i'm right okay okay you're right excellent so you mentioned the climate uh obviously a very big discussion it's bloody hard at the moment um you say that we are kind of running away from what we should be doing what do you think we should be doing well because your boss just just to add this your old boss tony blair's come out recently and basically said the way net zero is being pursued is not going to work yeah you can't you can't reduce consumption you can't phase out fossil fuels quickly these these are all points that a lot of people like to actually agree with in the country now about net zero and stuff you don't agree with with him no i don't what do you think we should be doing uh i do think the future is renewables and i think we've got a there's all sorts of stuff we do i think that you see i think the net zero it's really really interesting this because you're right the debate has feels like it's shifted okay it has shifted well the polling hasn't the polling hasn't i saw a massive global poll the other day about you know if you if you ask people the the general view about the level of concern about the climate has not shifted What's shifted?

1:35:31People hate the phrase net zero.

1:35:34Francis Foster:Well, they don't hate the phrase net zero. They hate the policies of net zero. They're concerned about the climate, but they don't want our economy to be destroyed by net zero, which is a reasonable position. So you have to build a strategy around your... Well, I think it is about building your economy and your energy around renewables. And where Tony's right is you can't do that overnight, but you can't lose sight of the need for the transition. And so I think I was at this amazing, if I can use your podcast to ask people to listen to one of our episodes. We did an episode recently with the European Energy Commissioner, Dan Jorgensen.

1:36:11So this is a guy who sort of lives in the detail of this. And he was just giving so many examples of where the transition has been done right. Is it being done right in Britain? I think it's been done. I think the overall goal is right. I think the strategy is right. but I think the politics are proving very, very difficult.

1:36:31Francis Foster:The reason I ask is, Britain is responsible. I mean, we produce 1 % of global carbon emissions. We probably import another 1%. So let's say we're responsible for 2%. When other countries, China is 30%, India is going to have to burn more fossil fuels to feed their people and to grow their economy to catch up to the rest of us. it sort of feels a little bit like we're tinkering at the edges and really making a huge negative impact on our economy to not make any impact on climate at all. And I think that's why net zero is becoming unpopular. Would you agree? I'm not convinced net zero is becoming unpopular in the way that you say that it is.

1:37:12I think some of the policies are... We have the highest industrial electricity price in developed world. And that's why you should listen to the guy Jorgens, because he gives a really... It's a very, very... The energy market is so complicated, the way that it runs. So that is not the biggest driver of it. But listen to him. He knows more about it. It's not a day. But what I... Sorry, I forgot your question there. This is what you do. You wear me down. You wear me down. Excellent. That's what we do.

1:37:42Francis Foster:It was about the unpopularity of net zero linked to its economic impact, is what I was saying. Okay, yeah. People are upset about it because it's damaging the economy. Some people are upset. It's true. Well, I think anything that damages the economy, people get, you know, why we're doing that. But what the weaponizers have done is... Well, come on! But this is what they do. When you dodge the real issue and you just go, this is a terrible problem. And the reason it's a terrible problem is it gives Nigel Farage an excuse to weaponize it. The problem is a problem because it's damaging our economy.

1:38:10No, our economy has to become a modern, renewables-based, energy-driven economy. Your point was about the 1%. OK, we're 1%. Yeah, we're small percent. Yeah, yeah. Right. And one of the things this guy, Danny Organson, said, actually, yes, China is emitting more, but China is also driving the renewables agenda in a way that is off-the-scale good. We need to be part of that. India, actually, yes, you're right. Other countries who have got far bigger energy needs than ours are actually both creating more emissions and driving faster forward on renewables. And where I really did disagree with Tony in his essay was when he made the 1 % point.

1:39:01And yet he's the guy who back in the day, rightly in my view, was saying that just because we are only this in relation to the size of the global economy does not mean that we can't take a lead in the time on overseas aid and development, which we did. And I think we should still be using arguments like this. Just because we are no longer one of the biggest powers in the world does not mean we're not still seen as a leader. Do you think with whatever...

1:39:34Francis Foster:He's doing it again, isn't he? No, no, I'm going to ask you perfectly reasonable questions I have done throughout the interview. Do you think that... No, I meant you were hogging the mic right now. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's true. Do you think that changing our energy policy in such a way that reduces our economic prosperity is an acceptable price to pay for this? No, but I don't believe it's necessary. You don't think it's had a negative economic impact so far? I think energy prices have. Yeah, but they're not related to net zero? Not in, it's a very small part of the stuff that's driven up our energy prices.

1:40:14So, no, it's not. You've got to, this is why I say these things are, you know, you've got to address this in the round, in our economy. Energy is going to become the big challenge for all of our countries. And, you know, so there's Trump saying drill, baby, drill. We don't have that, even if we wanted to frack on the level that they do, we don't have the reserves. We have oil in the North Sea. The oil in the North Sea. Just check out, the order in the North Sea is, one, it's not going to come in. If you were to go and drill all this stuff away, drill, baby, drill in the North Sea, it's going to be years before you get anything out there.

1:40:50It's not fine if you can do other stuff with the money you've got. Which is what? Which is renewables. But the problem with... The North Sea is important to our energy because of the wind that blows there. Okay? We're going to have much, that is going to be much more important to our long-term energy needs than...

1:41:06Francis Foster:We just had an energy expert called Scott Tinker on the show. It's not out yet, but if I may plug. He talked about the fact there's no such thing as renewable energy because it takes so much raw material to build the wind turbines, which then have to be... Okay, honestly, that's like saying... Look, it's a label. Like net zero is a label. It's what the label... Let's just say oil, wind and solar every time. But the reason... Wind, solar. Alistair, you're being picky now. The reason it's important is that these things are not renewable. They cost energy to produce. Everything. It costs us energy to turn those lights on.

1:41:44Francis Foster:That's a very good point, Alastair. You're right. Okay, okay. You know what? You know, you've been a very good sport. We appreciate you coming on. Alastair, thank you for being here. Last question is always the same. What's the one thing we're not talking about that you think we should be? Do you mean we today? I mean we as a country, as a nation, as a body politic. Well, weirdly, I'm going to say that I don't think we talk enough about politics in the context of why politics matters, why politics, for all its faults, is so necessary and important, and why we need to encourage more and more people genuinely to be engaged in politics.

1:42:29I mean really engaged in politics. because I worry that the way our debate is going, the thing that's underlying a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about isn't just Labour or Tory or Green or Reform, whatever. It's actually whether democracy is going to survive and whether people are going to think, well, you know, say what you like about Putin, but say what you like about Xi, but they've done stuff way better than we've done, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that we don't talk enough about, yeah, why democratic politics really matters and why we've got to fight for it harder than we do.

1:43:09Francis Foster:Alistair Campbell, thanks for coming on. I'm sorry, we're not going to get to your questions because I hugged the mic. It's my bad. All the best. I would have done them, but he's... Oh, would you? Okay, let's do them, Alistair. You're a man of your word. Okay, let's do the bonus questions. Bring us the phones. With hindsight on their ROG dossiers in WND, what would you now do differently on facts, risks, and moral trade-off?