Dana White: UFC 322, Success and Why You Should NEVER Listen To Your Critics

15 Nov 2025 · 1 h 2 min · 23 chapters

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In short

Dana White discusses UFC 322 and his business mindset—why he believes fighting is “in our DNA,” how the UFC grew globally, and why he refuses to listen to critics. He also covers fighter psychology, resilience, retirement mindset, and card predictions, including major matchups.

Guests

Dana White is the sole named guest. The hosts are not identified by name in the transcript (they interview him).

Guest background

White is UFC president and a long-time boxing fan who helped build the UFC into a global promotion. He describes early struggles financing the UFC, including being close to running out of money, and later achieving major arena sellouts at Madison Square Garden.

Key claims

Fighting is the first sport on Earth and creates a unique “holy shit” energy. Technology and disruption opened opportunities. Success requires belief, daily grind, and a “what’s next” mindset. Fighters are mentally wired differently; real fighters don’t fear losing.

Notable examples

Madison Square Garden sellouts; UFC early TV/streaming skepticism; Chuck Liddell (Cal Poly accounting), Rich Franklin (school teacher), Benil Dariush (world-title mindset); Tyson, Ali/Floyd Patterson suitcase story; Trump friendship; UFC women’s super fight Weili Zhang vs Valentina Shevchenko; Leon Edwards vs “Protestants”; Islam Makhachev vs Jack Della Maddalena (Jack as underdog story).

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

Tap a time to open that second in VO

The Roots of Fighting

0:00 to 0:42

Explore the primal nature of fighting as humanity's first sport.

“There's going to be three or four holy moments.”

Dana White's Journey and Mindset

3:42 to 4:58

Dana discusses his journey in the UFC and his relentless mindset for success.

“Listen, we were talking before we started about the early days, actually not just in UFC, but in your life.”

Lessons for Young Entrepreneurs

4:58 to 8:26

Dana shares advice for young men seeking success and overcoming challenges.

“Every day when I get up, we're still trying to get there.”

Belief and Persistence in Business

8:26 to 11:12

Dana emphasizes the importance of belief and persistence in achieving success.

“The bigger problem with it is people say they want this stuff.”

The Evolution of Fighting and Culture

11:12 to 14:01

Discussion on the evolution of fighting and its connection to society.

“I felt like we would tell the stories better than boxing did.”

The Pussification of America and Fighting

14:01 to 16:45

Explore the connection between societal changes and the appeal of fighting.

“10 years in particular, something you call the pussification of America.”

Personal Connection to Fighting

16:45 to 17:59

Dana White shares his personal journey and connection to the sport of fighting.

“is teach him how to fight you know you get him into jujitsu get him into Muay Thai and teach him how to fight.”

The Unique Thrill of Fighting

19:51 to 21:56

Discuss the electrifying moments in fighting that unite audiences globally.

“And then I played all of Tyson's knockouts from the early part of his career.”

Mindset of Fighters and Achievers

21:56 to 24:42

Analyze the determined mindset of fighters and how it relates to personal success.

“someone, you're like, that guy's got it.”

The Challenges of the Fight Business

24:42 to 28:00

Understand the complexities and challenges of managing fighters in the business.

“Oh man, I'm a, I used to be a bellman at the Boston Harbor Hotel.”
Show all 23 chapters

The Mental State of Fighters

28:00 to 31:40

Learn about the psychological challenges fighters face as they transition from glory to everyday life.

“and put tons of money into it and have failed in this business.”

The Aftermath of Fighting

33:20 to 40:50

Explore the emotional and mental struggles athletes face after their careers.

“Well, I've seen, you know, interviews where Tyson talks about it too.”

Inspiring Comeback Stories

42:00 to 43:26

Learn about the incredible resilience of individuals in tough situations.

“but he is one of the greatest people that you'll ever meet.”

The Work Ethic of Great Leaders

43:39 to 45:24

Discuss the relentless work ethic observed in successful figures.

“When you talk about killer instinct like we were talking earlier with certain athletes, there are other people in other walks of life, including business, that have it.”

Analyzing Dana White Privilege

45:24 to 47:11

Understand the concept of 'Dana White privilege' in UFC.

“Coming back to the card, it was a bit of a detour.”

Fight Predictions and Underdogs

47:11 to 49:05

Explore the dynamics of fight predictions and the story of underdogs.

“I didn't have this and I didn't have that.”

Britain's Surprising Fighting Talent

49:05 to 52:50

Discuss the origins of outstanding fighters from the UK.

“Well, I guess one of the opportunities for him is Islam's coming up, right?”

Australia's Rising MMA Scene

52:50 to 53:33

Learn about the emergence of Australia's talent in MMA.

“I mean, when we first went to Australia, there's a guy named Elvis Sinisek.”

Australia's Rising MMA Scene

53:45 to 55:15

Learn about the emergence of Australia's talent in MMA.

“But seriously, most of the tools out there are just clones with slightly different skin.”

Addressing Safety in UFC Fights

55:15 to 56:01

Examine the issues around eye pokes and potential safety changes.

“I mean, Tom Aspinall, I was just asking Lene before we started about his condition.”

Eye Pokes and Fight Endings

56:01 to 57:51

Learn about the challenges and statistics surrounding eye pokes in UFC fights.

“guys would be a lot more conscious of it.”

Power Slap's Rise in Popularity

57:51 to 1:00:08

Discover Dana White's insights on the growing phenomenon of Power Slap and its potential.

“So we'll ask you our final question Then move over to Substack Which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about That we really should be?”

Dana White vs. Eddie Hearn

1:00:08 to 1:01:58

Explore the rivalry and differing perspectives between Dana White and boxing promoter Eddie Hearn.

“Well, yeah, I was going to ask you about that.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:02Fighting is the first sport ever. Fighting is just in our DNA. There's going to be three or four holy moments. And what's incredible is 13 ,000 people at Madison Square Garden will jump out of their seats at the same time and go, holy. I've seen guys walk in with the belt entourage. Oh, that's not a move that night and walk out by themselves.

0:28Francis Foster:Eddie Hearn, there's been a bit of a war of words between you guys. Well, it's been kind of one way. I don't know if I should tell this story. You should.

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2:04That's avocadogreenmattress.com slash trigger. Avocadogreenmattress.com slash trigger. Right, I'm going to level with you. I'm not a gamer, even though I look like one. I'm not going to pretend I've been grinding through RPGs between recordings, or that I have strong opinions about which Final Fantasy was the best one. I think it's Japanese and I think there's a sword. That's genuinely everything I know. But our social media guy showed me this app and I genuinely thought, that's quite clever. It's called Snacksy. Basically, game publishers need new players and they're willing to pay to get them.

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3:39Francis Foster:Dana White, welcome to Trigonometry, man. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure to have you on. Listen, we were talking before we started about the early days, actually not just in UFC, but in your life. And I just wonder, given where you started and what you went through, do you pinch yourself every day now, like selling out giant arenas, MSG, UFC 322 now? Yeah, people, so this weekend is sold out. Let me do a$13 million gate. After this weekend, we will be eight of the top 10 all-time Madison Square Garden gates. in two years will be 10 of the top 10 all-time MSG gates. And we weren't allowed in New York a few years ago.

4:21You know, there was a corrupt politician here that was keeping us out of New York because of the Las Vegas Culinary Union, because of my friends, my first partners, the Fertitta Brothers and the gaming business and their non-union. So, you know, I love the fact that we sell out and we're going to be 10 of the top 10 all time in New York. Do I pinch myself? I do not because my mindset is always like, what's next? How do we keep going to the next level? So I have this, I'm never really there. Like we're not there yet. Every day when I get up, we're still trying to get there.

5:03Francis Foster:I know what you mean, but I also think like, I've heard you talk about, I remember you told the story of like there was this one guy that you wanted to do some kind of deal with and you'd show up and he wouldn't give you the time and day and you'd say, can I please? And then you and the end of that story was he now works at the UFC. That's got to feel good. Stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's been a lot of that. So think about this. So we're based in Vegas. Right. So I need production people. I need good salespeople. And all the sales and production people are either in New York or they're in L.A.

5:37nobody wanted to move to Vegas. And at that time, you know, Vegas is a much smaller city then. There were no live sports there except for us in boxing. So, yeah, it was hard to get those kind of guys. Now we have all those. We have the best of the best.

5:51Francis Foster:Well, I get a sense from you, though, proving people wrong is kind of a fun thing for you, right? I do. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know how to explain it, but yeah, I do. I love proving everybody wrong. Yeah. You know, Dana, there's a lot of, especially young men who watch your interviews because they see you as an inspiration and as a role model a guy who's gone from a regular blue-collar background to have the kind of business success that you've had what would you say to those young men maybe a 22 year old guy sitting in his bedroom watching this interview on his laptop doesn't see a lot of a way out or much hope in his life well I can tell you this when I grew up uh it was very hard to disrupt and very hard to break into, you know, if there was a massive business that had been around for a long time, very hard to go head to head and try to compete with them.

6:46Now, it's the Wild Wild West. The world is wide open and for the taking, for anybody, all these disrupting businesses that have come in. I mean, when I was, I'm 56. If you'd have told me that there's, you know, taxi cabs, that business was going to be in trouble in a few years. You know, these things that we, you know, the yellow pages would go away. And, you know, all the things that have happened in the last 25 years. I'll give you an example. When we were trying to get TV deals, a guy came into my office and he's like, I want to show you this thing called streaming. It's going to be huge. And it's going to take over, you know, television and all this stuff.

7:26So he plays it for me on a computer and it goes buffering, buffering, buffering plays three seconds. Buffering, buffering. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is going to be really fucking big. This will blow TV out of the water. But how fast technology has come in such a short amount of time. And for me and my businesses, technology has been incredible for us, you know, and I'm always jumping on the newest technology. So the answer to your question is, if there's anything that you love and you want bad enough, and you figure out that's what you want to do, and you get up every day, and you just work toward it.

8:04I mean, we're not sitting at this table in New York City right now because that's not what you two did. You two woke up one day and said, I think we should do this. And here you are. You've been in America for three weeks, and you've done 33 interviews. That doesn't happen overnight. Right. You have to have vision and you have to have a plan. You have to get up every day and work toward that plan. And anybody can do it. Anybody can do it. The bigger problem with it is people say they want this stuff.

8:35And being here in America for three weeks or four weeks, whatever you've been and doing 33 interviews is a grind. It's a grind. And you're away from your families. You have children. it's easier said than done. You know, putting in the work to achieve what you think you want to achieve isn't as fun as a lot of people think it is. I think it's a lot of fun. I love it. I was built for this. This is what I love to do. And if you out there are listening and you think that's you, go for it. Nothing's holding you back. Nothing's stopping you. And there's never been a better time. So back in the day, we were talking about movies yesterday or TV shows.

9:20You know how hard it was to land a TV show, you know, 35 years ago? It's almost impossible. And 25 years ago, when we started the UFC and we got the Ultimate Fighter on, we had to pay our way on for$10 million. Anybody right now can go jump on YouTube and start their own channel. And the odds of it being successful are pretty good. And it's interesting that you say that. But what kept you going through those long, dark nights of the soul where you think to yourself, am I going to make it? Am I going to not? You're looking at your bank account. It's hemorrhaging money. The business isn't as going as well as you hoped at that particular point.

9:59What kept you going? Well, do you really believe in what you're doing? Do you really believe? I believed to my core that the UFC could be massive, not just in the United States, but all over the world. I truly believed in it. Why? How come? because fighting works everywhere and i believe that this was the most exciting style of fighting i was a big boxing guy but once i got into into the into the ufc i believed that this was way more exciting than boxing was and i love the stories of the athletes um you know you had these guys who graduated. Chuck Liddell was, you know, my first big star. And he looked like an axe murderer, but he graduated from Cal Poly with a degree in accounting.

10:49You know, it's a great story. Rich Franklin, who was one of our world champions, was a school teacher. You know, we had these kind of stories, whereas boxing had, well, I came from the main streets of such and such. And if it wasn't for boxing, I'd be dead or in jail. It was literally every guy's story. And I thought that people could relate more to the UFC fighters than they could to boxing. I felt like we would tell the stories better than boxing did. And I just, I believe this was good. If you watch early interviews of me, I say, this is going to be bigger than boxing and it's going to be a global sport.

11:25And everybody thought I was nuts. Yeah.

11:27Francis Foster:Chuck Liddell follows us on Instagram. So he must be a smart guy. Definitely a smart guy. Sorry, if we just go back to my point before I interrupted you. What kept you going? The long, dark nights of the soul. I just I believed. I mean, that's it. I believed that this thing was going to work and we were going to keep grinding until we ran out of money and it was over. Yeah, and you came close. Yeah, we came real close. Yeah, Lorenzo called me and said I can't keep doing this. I need you to go out and find out what you can get for this thing. I called him back at the end of the day and I said, seven, eight million bucks.

12:09And we were in the hole 30 something. And he said, okay. We hung up the phone that night. I was like, it's probably over. And he called me the next morning and literally said, fuck it. Let's keep going. And Lorenzo's big thing. And it's so true. It's amazing what a good night's sleep can do for you. You know what I mean? When you, when you end a real shitty day, which I'm assuming he had that day, and you know, you go home and you go to bed, you wake up the next day and it's a new day. You start, that's just like what I tell young people. I think part of the problem with people, you're going to have this, the group of people that just don't want to work hard.

12:54You got the group of people that are like, I want to work Monday through Friday, nine to five. I want weekends and holidays off, right? Those people are always going to exist. I'm not going to say, what do you want out of your life? Who are you and what do you want out of your life? For some people, that's their life. And then you have people that are willing to work hard. They're willing to dig in and do whatever it takes, but they're scared to make that move. So when you have whatever your job is, you have a job. There's just this sort of feeling of security that people have when they have a job.

13:25And walking out the door of that job and trying to go out. And not only do you have to work for yourself and make a living, well, you have other people that rely on you every day that you're getting the shit done that also is going to take care of them and their families. So taking on that kind of responsibility freaks a lot of people out.

13:49Francis Foster:And Daniel, you talk about making the UFC a global sport and it has become a global sport. Absolutely. One of the things I wonder about is on our show, we've talked a lot about the way culture moves and politics moves. And we've seen over the last 10 years in particular, something you call the pussification of America. I think of the world, at least the Western world. Right. I agree. But I wonder if there's a connection between the pussification of the world and the fact that this brutal violence. I mean, I'll be honest with you. When I first started watching the UFC, I was kind of watching it like this through my head because it's brutal.

14:20Francis Foster:Yeah. But it's now really become what it's become. And I wonder if those two things are somehow connected. Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, I think that if you look into the history of fighting, right, from the Coliseum and then to boxing, when you look at boxing in the early 1900s and the U.S., I mean, there's fights that like hundreds of thousands of people showed up to watch back then. And this was always my philosophy. I believed it then. I believe it now. Fighting is the first sport ever on planet Earth. Two men were around and somebody punched somebody and it was on. And as human beings, even though you watched it like this, fighting is just in our DNA.

15:11We get it and we like it. A fight broke out in the hallway right now. We'd all run over there and, holy shit, there's a fight out here. And it just brings a sort of energy to the room. You know what I mean? And us as humans, that is unexplainable. And it doesn't matter what color you are, what country you come from, what language you speak. we all get fighting and we like it. And if somebody is looked at as the baddest dude in the world and they look like you, talk like you, and come from where you come from, you rally around them. And it's like, even after all these years, right? If Mike Tyson walked in this room right now, and I've known him for years and he's a good friend of mine, we'd all go, holy shit.

15:56That's Mike Tyson. You know what I mean? and no basketball players or, you know, no matter how great they are, make people feel that way. It's a weird thing. And I've always believed in that. And I've always believed that, you know, this thing would work everywhere with every group of people.

16:17Francis Foster:I guess what I'm getting at is, do you think there's something in this moment that's helped you explore? Because, you know, you had these people running around saying words of violence and then you've got Francis Ngannou knocking someone's head off. like a lot I think that kind of suppressed urge for something that raw is maybe part of of what's happened I don't know if you if you think that or not I don't know it's pretty deep uh sorry I don't know I don't know if uh I think that I tell people all the time I'll tell you you have you have a three-year-old son right the greatest thing you can do is his father is teach him how to fight you know you get him into jujitsu get him into Muay Thai and teach him how to fight.

16:56It gives these kids a level of confidence and not just to handle themselves physically, but just to know that you can, you know, changes the mindset of girls and boys. My daughter trained too when she was little. I had my daughter train. I don't know the answer to your question, but fighting definitely is just who we are. as a species, I guess, I would say. How did you get into fighting? So my uncles all used to watch the big fights on ABC over here. And like I was explaining that buzz and that energy that's in the room, they watched all sports. They were big Red Sox fans. They watched the Celtics, Patriots.

17:44But there was never that energy, that feeling there was when there was a big fight on TV. And I just became addicted to it, I guess. I don't know. I fell in love with boxing through, you know, them watching the big fights. And then I became a fight fan.

17:58Francis Foster:That makes sense because that's how I feel about the UFC. You often talk about you're in the holy shit moment business. And that is really the only time when I find watching some other, like literally. If you're a trigonometry fan, you probably think before taking things at face value. So why trust a mobile carrier that makes billions selling your data behind your back? That answer is Cape. a premium mobile carrier built from the ground up to protect your privacy. Unlike the big providers, Cape doesn't ask for your name, address, or social security number when you sign up. They delete call metadata after just 60 days instead of storing it for years, and they never ever sell your data because they don't collect it in the first place.

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19:16Francis Foster:If you like your trial month, you can use our code TRIGGER33 to get 33 % off your first six months with Cape. Wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere in a crowd. But too often, life gets busy or the price holds you back. Priceline is here to help you make it happen. With millions of deals on flights, hotels, and rental cars, you can go see the game live. don't just dream about the trip book it with priceline download the priceline app or visit priceline.com actual prices may vary limited time offer there's this thing where went like tomorrow night right the card is incredible there's going to be three or four holy shit moments and what's incredible is 13 000 people at madison square garden will jump out of their seats at the same time and go holy shit and everybody goes crazy and you're looking at each other and you're high-fiving and then there will be millions of people around the world doing it at the same exact time um and there's just there there's no other sport that really you know there's home runs and there's the soccer goal or the fucking but it's it's not the same as a fighting holy shit moment yeah it's just not one of my friends she was going to me oh francis why is it you like boxing and I went, come and sit down.

20:40And then I played all of Tyson's knockouts from the early part of his career. And it was like one in the morning and she watched it right the way through. When you just see those hits go in, it's magnetic. It's true. And even if it's not a Tyson type highlight, when we, who are normal people, first of all, to be an elite fighter, you are incredibly special. you are just built in every way shape and form differently than the rest of the world um and when we as normal people see these incredible human beings perform in their arena whether it's you know the octagon or a ring or whatever it is it's it's hard not to admire it and go wow that's and again like i told you earlier they look like you talk like you and come from where you come from you know you i mean you could take anybody that manny pacquiao you know i mean filipinos were all going crazy over manny pacquiao when when he was on top of the world um conor mcgregor who's irish everybody thinks they're fucking irish so everybody was going crazy all over the world and you know uh it's just it's it's a very unique special thing and what makes a great fighter because there must be like there must be a little bit of a chemistry to it that you when you watch someone, you're like, that guy's got it.

22:03They've all got different attributes that make them unique. Obviously, you have to be talented. You have to be a great athlete. And all the things that you have to be to play any sport, the difference between a fighter is you're mentally wired, completely different than the rest of the world. If you laid them on a platform and measured them against all the other athletes in the world, they're an athlete, right? But mentally, they're completely different. And, you know, there are certain athletes in other sports that I think, you know, have that type of, like, the goats, the ones that you look at, Michael Jordan is a killer, okay?

22:46Tom Brady is a killer, you know, and like Messi and some of these other guys that are huge ronaldo um but but the fighters what happened when i was younger and i used to fight and i believe that i wanted to you know i remember one day we were in the gym and there was this guy that came in the gym and he was a local like he was a celebrity local right not on the on the national world stage but in in our hometown he was and he came in one day and he was like, I hadn't seen him in a while and he was super punchy and fucked up. I was like, oh Jesus Christ. What if I end up like that guy? Fighters don't think like that.

23:33Okay? Real fighters don't think like that. Nope. They'll lose two, three in a row. This just knockouts, whatever it is. And they just keep going. They keep going and most of them will tell you, even yesterday Yesterday, Benil Darius, who has had, first of all, if you break into the top 10 in the UFC, it's unbelievable. To get to the UFC is hard enough. Break into the top 10, top five is almost impossible to break into the top five. And some of these guys that get in there and stay there for a long time. And Benil Darius is one of those guys. And they asked him yesterday, you know, what did he was like, what do you mean?

24:14What am I doing? Or what am I? I'm here to become a world champion. it. I want to win a world title. And that is your mindset. And it's no different than what we were talking about earlier. If you're going to get into the business world, or you're going to go out there and you're going to work for yourself, that should be your mindset. I'm going to win a world title.

24:38Francis Foster:A hundred percent, man. We're going to be the best. We're going to be the biggest. This is our goal. We're going to work every day to get here and anybody can do it well i'm sure you two have stories of why you shouldn't be sitting here right now and i have a million of those stories and and anybody who's ever made it and i think what happens to some of these kids too is they feel like uh and it's not that they're they're not confident in themselves but it's like let's say you wake up and you're 30, right? Oh man, I'm a, I used to be a bellman at the Boston Harbor Hotel. So when people ask you what you do for a living, I'm a bellman, right?

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25:19How the fuck is a bellman gonna go from that to being the CEO? Well, everybody is something at one point in their life. Nobody just gets out of fucking high school and becomes the CEO of, you know, a fucking Microsoft, right? you all started somewhere right these were just jobs that you survived to pay your bills to get you to wherever it is that you want to go most people have to shake that stigma of they feel like who am i to i didn't go to college i didn't do this i didn't grow up in a wealthy family i don't know anything you know all the shit that you can think are are negative things in your life they're not they've all um built you in different ways to go wherever it is you want to go and everybody can do it i don't know if i'm explaining you're making a put well actually i think people

26:13Francis Foster:who understand where you're coming from will really resonate with what you're saying because like you say with us we started this in a room above a comedy club with no audience no followers no money we have to borrow equipment to do it right yeah and we've interviewed prime ministers you are here, you know, like, and that is a process of eating shit for seven years in a row. Yep. Yep. Because that's what it is. How many times did you hear? No. How many times did you hear? Oh, this is ridiculous. You guys are wasting your time. Get a fucking job. Yeah. Yeah. All the time. It's true. Yeah. Right.

26:44And even when I do PR, like, Lene will take me out. We'll do some show. You know, Dana used to be a bellman at a hotel. I was 19 fucking years old. Yes, of course I was a bellman, you know, and people say, oh, it's like a rags to riches story. He was a bellman and now he's a city. No, there's a huge fucking gap between bellman and sitting here today. But as a 19 year old bellman, I looked around and I said, yeah, this isn't where I want to be in 20 fucking years. I'm leaving. Walked out the front door. My buddy's like, what are you doing? I said, I'm quitting. What happened? Nothing happened.

27:20Francis Foster:Well, one of the things that happens though is with people who do their own thing a they're very cool to deal with most of the time I love dealing with people where it's their own business whether it's a restaurant or whatever but I imagine in the fight game then I'm managing 500 or however many hundreds of fighters you have on your roster who have that mindset I can't imagine that's an easy job yeah no it's not the fight business is a you know the thing about the fight business it's like a sexy business like everybody and as soon as somebody gets some money they're like oh I want to be in the fight business Listen, it is one of the hardest businesses in the world to run, navigate.

27:56And there have been so many people who are a lot smarter than me, a lot more successful than me, and put tons of money into it and have failed in this business. You know, I remember I did an interview in a previous life when I was working at a radio station. I interviewed Dillian White, and I asked him, the heavyweight contender, brilliant fighter, Dillian. And I said to him, Dillian, what's the thing that worries you most when you're up against another fire? Is it a killer left hook? Is knowing somebody can absorb a lot of punishment? Is it the fact that, you know, they've got deadly combinations?

28:31He looked at me and went, no. It's sitting in that corner, looking over at the other guy in his eyes and knowing that motherfucker's crazy. And I think that kind of separates the fighters, doesn't it? It's that element of crazy that some of them have. No doubt about it. But, and you can look at it as crazy or absolutely brilliant in what it is they do. You have to, you know, it's, the thing that I love about fighters is when I would go out and say, oh, this is, you know, this is Chuck Liddell and, oh, I feel bad for him. Oh, he has to fight to me. You know, the fighters feel bad for people like us.

29:14These people sit in bumper-to-bumper traffic every day to go sit in fucking cubicles in a job that they hate and they're miserable. These fighters, even the lower-level guys that make less money, they'll fight. Then they'll go do incredible things for the next three months and blow all their money. Then they'll go back into camp and start training again. I mean, these guys do live incredible lives. And some of these fighters that are parents get to spend so much time with their families. And then they have these big chunks of time when they're gone because they're out on fight camp. But, yeah, a lot of those guys feel sorry for regular people.

29:55Yeah, I can imagine. And I think one of the difficult things must be if you run a promotion like the UFC where you see a fighter and they were once great. But there must be a part of you that you see them going downhill and you just want to step in and go. you were brilliant you had your moment you need to step away yep i've done it many times many times it's one of the hardest things to do and and i think if you're not just fighters but professional athletes period tonight you guys are gonna uh sit in madison square garden the most famous arena in the world and when the co-main and main come out 13 000 people are losing their minds when they walk out of the tunnels, right?

30:40And they get up into the octagon. One will win. The place will erupt when they leave. I mean, it's got to be so hard to walk away from that, right? Just the feeling of all that and the money. So once I tell all these guys, this isn't a job, this isn't a career. You know what I mean? This is an opportunity for you to become as famous as you can possibly be. Many people around the world see the great things that you've accomplished and make as much money as you can possibly make. And then there's a second part of your life that they have to go out and figure out who they are and what they want to do.

31:23Yeah, because it must be so tough. If you've been the baddest man on the planet, it's very difficult to go from that to becoming an accountant. Do you know what I mean? 100%. The end of the year always sneaks up on you. One minute you're buying gifts and booking flights and next you're wondering where half your money went. It's the most expensive time in the year and usually the least organized when it comes to finances. If you want to keep your finances under control this holiday season, you need to be using Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your phone or on your laptop.

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33:20See terms. Well, I've seen, you know, interviews where Tyson talks about it too. And he says that when he watches himself on TV, He's like, I've idolized that guy. Now I'm nobody. Now I'm a f***ing, which is absolutely wrong. You know, Tyson is beloved and is still doing very well for himself. But, you know, there's a whole different mindset that you have to get into once you retire and walk away from. And not just fighting, but professional sports in general. Because I remember reading Muhammad Ali's, one of Muhammad Ali's biographies. and they talked about the boxer, former heavyweight champion, Floyd Patterson.

34:03And they said about Floyd, which I found so surprising. This man was a genuinely great fighter, for those of you who don't know. And every time he used to walk and defend his title, he carried a suitcase with him, which had a disguise, because he knew at one point he was going to lose and then he would wear that disguise and be able to slip out of the arena unseen. that to me was just it was an insight into a man's mind but it was also heartbreaking at the same time you know, even though you're on top of the world, you still know you're human and fragile so I've seen, literally in this business, I've seen guys walk in with the belt entourage, the whole da da da da da, lose that night, and walk out by themselves, no oh yeah, oh yeah oh wow Yeah, it is a brutal death.

34:56That's bad. Brutal. That is bad. Because, you know, again, we're talking about fighters. One of my heroes was Ricky Hatton. God rest his soul. I love Ricky. Yep. Magnificent boxer, even bigger heart, life and soul, a great guy. And I was reading an interview with him. I think he pretty much said himself he never got over losing to Floyd. He never got over losing to Floyd Mayweather. You know, what are you talking about? You were one of the best of your generation, and you lost up arguably pound for pound one of the greatest, if not the greatest fighter of all time. There's no disgrace in that.

35:31Well said. Absolutely right. Well said. But it's the mindset of a real fighter. Mindset of a real fighter is you want to be the best, and you want to beat everybody. If that is not the way you think, you shouldn't even be fighting. You're crazy. That's when you're crazy. When you say, look across and that guy's crazy, if that isn't your mindset, you're crazy and you're fighting for all the wrong reasons. It's, you know, it's so true because it's like I said, it's that balance, isn't it? Because not only look, if a soccer player goes on for too long, you go, I am what it used to be. You know, I remember him a few seasons back.

36:11This guy was magnificent. But there's also a danger element in combat sports. If you go on for too long, you're really risking your health and your ability to function later on in life. And possibly your life.

36:24Francis Foster:Right. Well, we've made a very British interview, and it gets depressing the longer we go. That's what I think. Let's talk about the – yeah, it's your specialty, man. Let's talk about the card. Because, Dana, one of the things you famously changed the mind about is women in the UFC. And tonight, I mean, I'm not an expert, but I've been a fan for a long time. This has got to be probably the most exciting female matchup between Valentina Shevchenko and Wei Li Zhang. One of the greatest ever. Exactly. Not UFC. Ever in female fighting. And when you talk about super fights, right? Oh, this is a super fight.

37:01Wei Li Zhang never lost the belt, still the world champion in her weight class. Valentina Shevchenko, who is heavier, still the champion. And Wei Li is coming up to try to take her belt. And it's the number one pound-for-pound fighter in the world versus the number two pound-for-pound fighter in the world. This is a true super fight. And what makes this one even more exciting is Wei Li Zhang is a pit bull. She will go after Valentina, and it will be a good fight. I mean, I'd bet anything I own on this fight that this fight could be up for fight of the night.

37:39Francis Foster:We're going to hold you to that. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's super exciting, not least because the fighting styles are so different, because Valentina is so technical, graceful. The way she moves is just perfection. It's like something out of a kung fu movie. Yep. And then you've got Weili Zhang, who is an absolute brawler. It's super exciting. True. So when I was coming over here, the president called me, and we talked about that fight for 15 minutes. He's totally pumped up. Is he coming to the fight? He's not, no. But he's excited for that fight. And he told me to say hi to Valentina.

38:14Francis Foster:Well, you've brought him up, so I wasn't going to bring it up. But one of the things you've had to, I don't know if it's the right word to say, navigate, but you're not a political guy. And I don't think you take sides particularly. But Trump is a friendship you've had for a long time. And you've had to, well, not had to. I mean, I think you've always backed him and been there for him in the way that he has for you. Have you had any issues with like sort of being aligned with President Trump? No, not really. Nobody's really ever come after me for that. You know, I'm sure there's a lot of people that don't like me because I'm friends with Trump.

38:48You know, who gives a shit? You know what I mean? I could care less about that stuff. He is the guy. I literally was on the phone with him for, I don't know, what, 40 minutes? He had me laughing for 30 minutes of the call. He's hilarious. He's the best guy. I don't know if you just saw the thing with the Osbournes. Have you seen that? No. So the Osborne family on their podcast, I don't know if they have a podcast or if they just filmed this, but the son is like, I'm going to play this voicemail. And he plays the voicemail and it's Trump leaving a message for Sharon and saying Ozzy was a great guy.

39:26He was talented. So sorry that, you know, So I'm just calling to give my condolences to you and the family and all this stuff. Hi, Sharon. It's Donald Trump, and I just wanted to wish you the best and the family. Great. Ozzy was amazing. He was an amazing guy. I met him a few times, and I want to tell you, he was unique in every way and talented. So I just wanted to wish you the best, and it's a tough thing. I know how close you were, and whatever I can do, take care of yourself. Say hello to the family. Thanks. Bye. And then Sharon Osbourne says, this guy and his wife have never been anything but incredible to me and my husband.

40:06And she said, let me make something very clear. I'm not American. I don't vote. I don't want to vote. And I'll never vote. so this guy doesn't need anything from me. And she starts crying at the end of the whole thing. But I've been telling people for over 10 years that that's exactly who that guy is.

40:26Francis Foster:That's so interesting you say that because this is something that people really forget. I remember, and look, people can have whatever opinion about President Trump. He's a politician. People should criticize him, disagree with him, whatever. But I remember my wife and I were watching one of the Die Hard movies for Christmas. And there's a line in it where you've got there's some kind of problem and the switchboard for a local area has to manage the phones for the entire city because of something that's happened. And the supervisor comes in and he tells the woman who manages it, you know, you're going to have to deal with this.

41:00Francis Foster:And she says, black woman, she says, if you think I'm going to do that, you think I'm going to marry Donald Trump. They're shutting down the police van. All calls will be coming through this switchboard. And I'm going to marry Donald Trump. He's an aspirational figure 15 years ago. And then when he ran for president, suddenly he became the worst person in the world. What do you think happened there? I don't know if this is true or not, but he was in Home Alone 2. And I heard they took him out of the movie. They took his scene out of the movie because the little kid, Macaulay Culkin, supposedly runs into him on the street and they have an exchange.

41:35And I heard they took that out of the movie. It's literally mentally ill. I mean, everybody used to love Trump. you know, then the whole thing about him being a racist, they're like, oh, he's a racist, he's this and that. You talk to any black people that have ever had any interaction with Donald Trump pre-running for president, I mean, he's the best. Tyson defends him to the death, you know? And I know Tyson was getting a lot of shit for it in the beginning, but he is one of the greatest people that you'll ever meet. And he's turned it around. I mean, the comeback was, it's like something out of the UFC,

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43:26Francis Foster:Go to wildalaskan.com slash trig for$35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. That's wildalaskan.com slash trig for$35 off your first order. Thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. Well, that's the other thing. When you talk about killer instinct like we were talking earlier with certain athletes, there are other people in other walks of life, including business, that have it. He's the most resilient human being I've ever met in my life. And I've been in the fight business forever. You sure? Fact. I mean, if you look at what he went through, The last eight years and how, and I don't care what side you're on, there's no way you believe that they weren't coming after him.

44:10They were trying to put him in jail. They're trying to break him financially, all that stuff. And that guy kept getting up every day and grinding. Yeah, it's inspiring. And he's almost 80 years old, and that guy doesn't sleep. He is a workhorse. I mean, he's nonstop. and uh how was i talking to uh one of his people a couple days ago but they were saying um yeah my oh yeah yeah the guy at the stock exchange like yeah my wife works for him and you know she was in the cabinet and he runs that team hard like like when the night of the election i was with him and we were at mar-a-lago and then we went to the convention center where he was announcing that he had won and everything else but all the kids these are all young kids that worked for him in this campaign they were they were fucking wiped out you know for the last three weeks leading up to the election this guy was flying to three or four different states and doing rallies and and all the young kids that work for him i mean it's a life-changing moment for them but they were exhausted and they were all crying and you know they're all celebrating but um it's hard to keep up with that guy.

45:23He's a beast.

45:26Francis Foster:Coming back to the card, it was a bit of a detour. Leon Edwards is back. We're British. So obviously that's exciting. Incredible fight too. Tell us about that. Incredible fight. So the whole main card, people keep asking me, what's the best fight? What's the sleeper fight? I have no idea. The whole card is so good that any of these fights could be fight of the night, could be... That's another one though. I mean, Edwards and Protestants is an unbelievable fight. And another one that is interesting, I mean, you've been accused of giving certain fighters what they call Dana White privilege, right?

46:00Francis Foster:Bo Nickel, is it fair to say that you were very excited about him and then he had a setback in a way that people didn't expect? Here's the stupidity in Dana White privilege. When you bring guys in, there's people that you think could possibly become world champions, right? I was even talking through the whole interview. Everybody wants to become a world champion. Well, there's people that you think have a much better chance than others do. So you prop these people up and you put them in positions and see what they're capable of doing. I mean, Conor McGregor is a guy that was accused of having Dana White privilege.

46:42Arguably one of the biggest superstars in sports, let alone the UFC. Ronda Rousey, when I brought her in, Dana White Privilege, huge superstar for us, and literally launched female fighting for us. Bo Nickel is a guy that came in, you know, with a lot of heat on him, so you put him in these fights and these positions to see if he can perform. That's what you do. So, that's called fight promotion. That's what that's called. You know, anybody that that comes with Dana White privilege or all these other things that happen, you have a group of people, not just in UFC or in fighting, but in life, that if they don't make it and they don't get to where they thought they could, it's never their fucking fault.

47:32It's somebody else's fault. I didn't have the Dana White privilege. I didn't have this and I didn't have that. And those type of people are always going to exist.

47:42Francis Foster:And finally, on the card itself, the headline fight we haven't talked about. Some people are saying it's a very lopsided matchup. Which one? The main event? Yeah, the main event, yeah. That's crazy. What was the number I said to you two? How many years with Islam and was it 21? If you add their records together, these guys haven't lost for 21 years, right? Jack Della came in on the contender series, right? And worked his way up and beat Bilal Muhammad, who was a nightmare for everybody. He beat him. This kid is gritty, tough, well-rounded, and he's in a position now, and he got there on his own.

48:28No data wipe, but he got there, and now he's going to fight one of the greatest of all time who's coming up to try to take his belt. this is an incredible opportunity and when you go on like the prediction market stuff um you know they uh they got islam at like 80 something percent chance to win polymarket that's what i'm saying right yeah polymarket adam at like 80 to win the fight so he's looked at as this huge underdog these are the greatest stories ever and if jack this is the fight of jack's life Jack wins this fight. Durant words to explain how different his life will be on Sunday.

49:10Francis Foster:Well, I guess one of the opportunities for him is Islam's coming up, right? Because that's not an easy thing to do. How hard is that to go up? Well, there's two different ways to look at it. He's coming up to a heavier weight class where, you know, supposedly the guys in that weight class should be bigger, stronger, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. But on the flip side, you could argue that because Islam doesn't have to cut all that weight anymore, that he'll actually be stronger, faster. And you always have to make the assumption that the guy who's coming up is going to be faster than the heavier guy.

49:49So there's so many different ways to look at it and break it down. And that's why people always ask me, who's going to win? I have no fucking idea who's going to win tomorrow. I guess that's why it's still fun for me, you know? Yeah. You know, on this show, we always criticize the UK. We're always talking about how bad the UK is. I want to ask you a pro-UK question. Yep. Why is it this small, miserable little island, right, just in the northern point of Europe, produces so many great fighters? Great fighters? I mean... Are you going to push back on my question? If you look at the UK, look at the musical talent that has come out of the UK.

50:34Fighter talent. I mean, it's a fascinating part of the world.

50:40Francis Foster:Don't forget podcasting. Podcasting. And when you think about at one point, that tiny, miserable island controlled most of the world. Right. You know what I mean? Yes. The UK is a very fascinating place, and so many talented people have come out of there. It's cool. Yeah, it is. I know you tried to be negative, but it's hard to be. It's a fascinating question and a fascinating place. Because if you look even at the Northwest, the Northwest has produced so many great fighters, like Tom Aspinall, Baddy to Baddy. you know it's pretty just that tiny little kind part of the uk yeah it seems to produce fighters ricky hat and other people as well so it's really exciting from a british point of view to see our boys come over and you know do really well and what's interesting too is that traditionally um you know people who come from rough backgrounds you know you grew up rough you grew up hard um usually become the best fighters you know that's why you see places like uh you know mexico tons of talent coming out of Mexico and South America.

51:54But, yeah, the UK is a fascinating place. I mean, if you weighed any other industry or whatever you want to call it, just on the music side, it's mind-boggling, the talent that has come out of the UK. Is there any particular country that you've got an affinity with when it comes to fighters? You know how people say Brazilian soccer players or, you know, like Dominican baseball players. Yeah. Is there a country where you go, oh, I love those fighters. They've got something special about it. Well, realistically, this sport started in Brazil and there's still a ton of talent that comes out of Brazil.

52:34When we went over, I'll give you two places, the UK and Australia. When I first went, the three no-brainers for me were the United States, Mexico, and the UK, traditionally big boxing countries. So those are the first three that I focused on. The UK happened a lot faster than Mexico did. And the sleeper was Australia. I mean, when we first went to Australia, there's a guy named Elvis Sinisek. He was the only guy out of that country at the time that had the skills to even come to the UFC. Now, multiple world champions, multiple top tens, and one of the greatest camps in the sport come out of Australia, which is fascinating.

53:15And what do you think that is? Is it because it's kind of still quite, you know, if you look at it, it's quite a brutal country, Australia. The weather, the outback, all the rest. Everything that can kill you is in Australia, from snakes to spiders to sharks to jellyfish. I mean, you name it, it can all kill you over there. If you're someone who values free inquiry and independent thinking, which, let's be honest, is why you're probably watching trigonometry, our sponsor, Venice AI, is the tool for you. here's a hot take. AI is exploding right now. But seriously, most of the tools out there are just clones with slightly different skin.

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55:14Francis Foster:Coming back to the British conversation, I mean, Tom Aspinall, I was just asking Lene before we started about his condition. He's still recovering from his iPog. It's been a big conversation since the last big event. Do you have any plans to kind of try and change things up so that these things don't happen as frequently? Is there a glove change? Is there a rule change? Is there anything that can be done to stop it? Because I was just saying to her, like, my three-year-old poked me in the eye. And I had to go to a doctor and sit in a dark room for three days. It is really bad if you get poked in the eye by Cyril Gunn.

55:46Francis Foster:You know what I mean? Yeah. Getting poked in the eye by anybody isn't good. But we've messed around with gloves. We've tried to do all these things to, you know, I think the big talk is if you can, if there's harder penalties for doing it, guys would be a lot more conscious of it. Because you always have these guys when, if you're throwing punches and I'm blocking your punches, and then you've got a guy that reaches out to catch something and the other guy's coming forward, it's going to happen. It doesn't happen as much as it seems. I can't remember what the number was. Do you know the number when I have eye pokes that we've had?

56:27It's like a hundred and something eye pokes over thousands of fights.

56:32Francis Foster:But I guess some are much more meaningful than others. Right. Like when you've got a heavyweight title fight. Right. And it ends early with no result because of an eye poke. Right. That's when people I can see your face in the press conference afterwards. You're not happy that that's happened. Yeah. But but it's you know, you don't ever want to fight to end like that. And then the problem is, and I think that, you know, I think Tom took it a little little too hard. but you know you got all these people going he quit he this he that it's easy to sit on the couch or sit on the chair and watch somebody get poked in the eye and go oh you got fucking you know or get punched and knocked out you go home you recover you get back in the gym and we get back out and start fighting again so are you thinking about rule change we will definitely figure something out but it's like bad decisions, bad referee calls.

57:31I mean, it's never going to go away. It's always going to be here. It's not like we're going to create some fucking invention that nobody can get eye-poked again.

57:39Francis Foster:It's just not going to happen. I guess the logic from some people is if you punish people more, they're going to be more careful. Makes sense. Makes sense. Dana, we want to leave time to ask you questions from our supporters. So we'll ask you our final question Then move over to Substack Which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about That we really should be? Before Dana answers a final question at the end of the interview Make sure to head over to our Substack The link is in the description where you'll be able to see this Who wins in an octagon? Constantine or Francis? Me or him? Who are some of your favourite fighters to watch and why?

58:19So, fuck, I don't know if I should tell this story You should I don't know, this was a very well-rounded interview. We've covered it all. Yeah, I think it was great. You guys look very disappointed in that answer. Yeah, we are. We are.

58:38Francis Foster:You're like, when I think about you, I think of you as a guy who's like the promotion man. You haven't mentioned Power Slap. You haven't mentioned boxing. That was your opportunity, man. Yeah. Yeah, those will all have their time and place. Listen, power slap is an absolute beast. This thing is so incredibly successful. Remember, I said this here today, this will be bigger than the UFC. You don't have to train 10 years and be an incredible athlete to do it. And like I said earlier, or you said earlier to me, I sell holy shit moments for a living. And you might have a whole night of fights and not have your holy shit moment.

59:17Power slap is one, two, holy shit. Do you know, as a man who has a Latin American mother, you should get some Latin American mothers involved in that. Yeah. And that's a great point. I hope not. A lot of people don't understand what happens when you go to the ground in the ground game. Everybody understands a slap, including women, and everybody gets it. And one of the big criticisms early with Power Slap was that, yeah, it's good, short, snackable content on social media. But, you know, people are going to win every year. We have 30 million followers in two and a half years. And we're going to double this year what we did last year.

1:00:04So the thing just keeps going like this. It's going to be great. Boxing.

1:00:09Francis Foster:Well, yeah, I was going to ask you about that. Eddie Hearn, there's been a bit of a war of words between you guys. Well, it's been kind of one way. I'm trying to make it two way. It's been all Eddie Hearn. I'm trying to make it two way. Help me out there. What's going on there? I like Eddie. I don't dislike Eddie. And the thing is with Eddie and all the other guys in the boxing world, they're like, oh, we look forward to this, and he's not doing it, he's not doing that. These guys remind me of career politicians that have, you know, just been there and done their thing. And then they're running a den telling you all the great things that they're going to do that they haven't done the last 25, 30 years.

1:00:49If any of those guys were truly visionary and were that good and that talented, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now about boxing because somebody would be the, you know, it reminds me of, like, if somebody wants to come in now into the MMA landscape. and they're saying that they want to challenge me, right? I don't even look at any of those people as competition anymore. My competition is baseball, basketball, football, and soccer. When I look at our brand, I want our brand and our sport to be the biggest in all of sports. And again, you know, like 25 years ago, I sound like a crazy person to a lot of people, but maybe I've been a lot more people don't think I'm as crazy as people thought I was 25 years ago.

1:01:41So the Eddie Hearns of the world, and I like Eddie. I like him personally, but he's just, he's a politician and he's out there. He doesn't like the fact that I'm getting into this and I don't blame him. And, you know, we'll see in a couple of years. We'll see how this plays out. There we go. We've got a little clip.

1:01:59Francis Foster:Dana White destroys Eddie Hearns with facts and logic. That's all we do here at Trigonometry. All right, head on over to triggerpod.co.uk where Dana is going to answer your question. Dana, for the love of Christ, she's very passionate. Can you please add more weight divisions like cruiserweight? What has been the reason that there are as many weight divisions as there are?

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From the publisher

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About TRIGGERnometry:

Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians.

00:00 - Introduction

08:56 - What Kept You Going In The Early Days Of The UFC?

16:47 - To Be An Elite Fighter You Are Incredibly Special

24:12 - The Fight Business Is Not Easy

32:54 - Women In The UFC

34:19 - Being A Friend To Donald Trump

40:03 - "Donald Trump Is The Most Resilient Human Being I've Ever Met In My Life"

42:15 - You've Been Accused Of Giving Certain Fights "Dana White Privilege"

46:25 - Why Does The UK Produce So Many Great Fighters?

51:36 - Thomas Aspinall's Injury And What Can Be Done To Prevent Further Instances Of This Happening

54:13 - What's The One Thing We're Not Talking About That We Really Should Be?
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