Ex-Climate Activist Speaks Out - Lucy Biggers

22:00We're elderly millennials. Your favorite president. Maybe it's because your opinions are just so mature guys. That's right. You can weasel out of this all you want.

22:11Francis Foster:When you were in high school, when you were in high school, when Reagan was in office. No, I'm just kidding. But I guess my point is like, maybe because, okay, I don't know. I feel really bad now to like age bias. you guys. Lucy, I'm messing with you. I actually think this is a really interesting point because we are a little bit older than you. A little, just a little. Well, probably about eight years. We don't have to be public about it. When we were at school, I actually don't remember being taught anything that would predispose me to this kind of worldview. Right. I went to school in England, so it may be a bit different.

22:48Francis Foster:I guess what I'm guessing at is when you mentioned that the American education system, A, didn't prepare you to be critically thinking about some of these things, but did it also prepare you for the view that you just described, which is, this is the right side of history. Were you being told about, you know, climate change is about to destroy the planet and all this kind of stuff at school? Right. Well, yeah. And again, I graduated from high school in 2008. So then I'm even kind of young. I'm kind of the end of the millennial. And I think there's the generation after me is even worse with some of this stuff, because I got out of college by I mean, I think we're in the middle of 2012, and I will say, like, we're 9-11 kids.

23:23We were, like, 11 when 9-11 happened, and when Osama bin Laden got shot, we had a party at my college because we were so excited. So we were very much still... It was like, now there'd be probably, like, a eulogy for him or something. So, I mean, even I was kind of a transition generation to what this younger generation has been even fed, but I will say, I think the context of, for me, and maybe just not being inoculated against this at my home and at school was, like, obviously Obama is the hope president. Obviously Bush is bad. Look at the forever wars. Look at the financial crisis. Look at income inequality.

23:57And so I was just sort of your basic millennial liberal because that was just the path of least resistance. And everyone who was conservative, I just kind of thought was like old schooler. They didn't get it. And I never was articulated to in a way that made me feel like I should be on that side. And only after being on the left for so long and seeing it go completely crazy, was I like, hold on, I need to, like, get out of here. And, like, basically, essentially re-educate myself. And I don't know. There was enough cognitive dissonance, obviously, though, that, like, I was able to leave the movement and I chose to work for Barry, which is, like, not exactly a safe choice.

24:36And then I will say, being now at the Free Press for three years, and you know all of our contributors, our writers, Douglas Murray, Neil Ferguson, all these people who, like, now they're household names to me, and I, you know, now know all their work, And that also helped re-educate me. Because even coming into the free press, I was still questioning, right? It's like, this is a very long process. Like, I stopped posting on my social media as a climate influencer in 2020. And then I've had my son in 2022, and I was at a nonprofit. Then I came to the free press end of 2022, had another son in 2024, and I didn't start posting publicly about my new opinions until 2025.

25:14But questioning the whole time, I said before the cameras were rolling, I remember seeing your guys' videos in 2020, and I really liked the name Trigonometry because I knew that everyone in my circle was, like, triggered by everything because everyone was such snowflakes. But I was still thinking of myself as in the group. And I think it can't be understated how much it takes to extract yourself from that. And I think now it kind of all ties in. Like, my cause is climate, right? And we'll talk more about that. But I think you look at the activism now and it feels like every six months there's a new cause du jour.

25:48And a lot of young women, mothers and people of my demographic are getting whipped up every few months. What's the new thing that you're going to freak out about? And so my experience is just one, but it continues on.

26:02Francis Foster:Of course. Yeah. And by the way, the reason I'm digging into why you had the views that you had is I actually think, you know, I've always tried to understand where people are coming from. It doesn't mean that I agree or accept or tolerate even, but understanding, I think, is the most important thing. And one of the things you mentioned is kind of interesting. You mentioned young women. This is something that Orwell wrote about in 1984, that it is young women that tend to go for all these social, I don't know what the right word is. Like social justice causes, essentially. Well, right. But also, he wasn't really talking about social justice.

26:38Francis Foster:I think he just meant if there was a kind of social derangement in which everybody went in a particular direction. It didn't have to be about social justice necessarily. It was just about a lot of people who hadn't thought about something critically, but felt very passionately that it was the right thing to do. Does that match your experience with the people around you, young women? It was a mix. It was a mix. It was both, I think. but I would say in the climate movement, yes, many, many women. And what you said about the not critical thinking is basically everything about it. And why do you think that is?

27:17Because I think there's an emotional side of women where we're very empathetic. And so we see suffering and we want to fix it. And so I had a lack of boundaries of individuation between between myself and what I can control and the suffering in the world. And then again, social media, Kerosene on the Fire, where we're now getting exposed to all of these different causes around the world. You have to care about everything. And then if you start to say, I don't want to care about something. I have an emotional boundary here. The movement will say, well, you're privileged for having an emotional boundary.

27:50That's selfishness. And so there was so many ways to hook you back in when you're in this movement. And again, that's why even years after leaving, I would be like on the edge. I had to read every single one of Douglas Murray's books to be like, I'm not crazy. And create a foundation for myself that was not so anti-West and so just emotionally dispersed over the whole globe. I felt like I had the weight of the world on my shoulders with all these different ideologies that I felt I had to push. And for me, climate was the main one. But again, kind of everything. Like your textbook, very left person.

28:25So yeah, I mean, there's so much there.

28:27Francis Foster:So you're right, there's so much there. I mean, the thing I'm hearing through all of it is almost like there is a sense of pressure, but there's also almost like a craving for some kind of meaning and purpose as well. Is that part of it? 100%. I think, yeah, I think the social pressure to be seen good within the group, wanting to have your impact on the world and to have a legacy and make a difference, and having that desire, but because of the internet and social media, it's kind of dispersed over the globe versus caring about your own community near you, right? Your own school board or all these things.

29:08Again, I was younger. I'm an urban New Yorker at that time. So I'm renting an apartment. I don't really have a stake in the game in the way that I do now. And so I fell for all this stuff. And again, I see people that I know now in my life that I've known in person, and I see them posting the memes every few months, whether it's, it would be like the person bloating the black square during BLM, right? And then it's like Palestine stuff. Then it's the anti-ice stuff, right? And you can care about immigration and all these different things, but the level that these women are triggered by this stuff, and I think of it now as their nervous systems are hijacked by this ideology.

29:47Even if they're at home on their phone, like breastfeeding a newborn, but their minds are like, and part of them, is in that global cause. And climate was the big cause in 2018, in 2019, right? And now it's no longer as fashionable. But I think that's why my story, I think, is important, because there's different causes, but the same tactic is used. We get asked this all the time. Which VPN do you use at Trigonometry? The answer is simply CyberGhost VPN. CyberGhost isn't some fringe tool. It has 38 million users and over 20 ,000 five-star reviews on Trustpilot, which frankly is rare for any tech product, let alone a VPN.

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31:55I was very angry. But the more I step away from it, the more empathy I have, because I talk to young people and then they say things like, I don't want to have kids. And I go, okay, why not? And they went, well, because of the climate crisis, I don't want to bring children into this world. And you go, this has gone so deep, so deep into your psyche that it's actually affected you to the point where you don't want to carry on your own lineage, which to me is heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking. And again, I think that generation that's younger than me, the people in their 20s now, they were the ones that were taught climate stuff in school.

32:32It became curriculum because all the teachers and people were like, we have to teach this to them to be responsible. And for me, in 2006, I was a sophomore in high school and we watched Al Gore's Inconvenient Truth during a high school assembly. And that was my first exposure to it. Was that widespread or was that just your school, do you think? I think it was widespread. Wow, okay. And that was sort of the beginning of the climate movement of my era, where I feel like my parents are baby boomers, and they had Silent Spring, and they were hippie environmentalists. And then for us, it was the climate, and Al Gore's that film.

33:04And I will say, I remember watching that film, and I was overwhelmed afterwards with so much existential dread. I remember sitting in a photography class, hanging out with my friends after, and I was thinking in my mind, okay, I'm 16, I have to, I'm 26. Like, I have 10 years to live. Based on whatever I took away from that film, that was what I thought. I was wracked by anxiety, like, in my nervous system. And then at the same time, my brain was kind of like, well, we're going to not think about that anymore. We're going to throw that out of my mind. I'm not going to think about this every day.

33:34But something changed. Like you're saying, this hopelessness. Where then my new reality was, there are certain rules I have about reality now. We're ruining the planet. We're burning the planet. The planet is burning. And it's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when. but I guess my future self will have to deal with that, which now I know isn't even true, but like, that was one film. So again, the younger generation, they're getting this from their teachers as a curriculum, and so they have it way more in their psyche than we do, elder millennials that we are. I hate to use this term because it's kind of hyperbolic, but it feels appropriate.

34:11It's kind of brainwashing, isn't it? Yeah. I think it's brainwashing, and I'll be even more hyperbolic. I say it's a crime against humanity. I really do. I think that the teachers and the schools, again, they push this ideology, and I think in their minds, they were saying, we're doing the responsible things. These kids should know. The planet is burning, and they should know in fifth grade. Not that they can do anything about it, but they should learn so they can grow up and be an activist or whatever. And I think, unfortunately, again, we now know that the tide's turning a bit. There's been a bit of a vibe shift because reality is hitting with the energy prices and everything.

34:47But think about the social costs back in the day of, if you were in 2015, saying, actually, maybe we don't teach climate to fifth graders. They'd say, well, you're a climate change denier, and you would be ostracized, or maybe even be pushed out of a position. So it just was a snowball, compounding effect. And it really hit every level of our education system. And it's such a waste of human capital. It frustrates me. so much.

35:13Francis Foster:And Lucy, obviously, since you've evolved in your views, I'm sure that one of the things you've done is gone through some of the main things that you used to believe and done the research and looked into it. And there are so many things that are now effectively accepted as the truth about this issue that when you actually dig down are not true. I'd love for you to talk us through the key beliefs of the climate movement and also talk about where they're not actually true. Yeah. So the climate movement, when I was in it, the ideology was essentially, we have 10 years to prevent a catastrophic climate change.

35:54And basically the planet will become unlivable unless we transition off of fossil fuels as fast as possible to things like solar and wind. And meat was vilified. The capitalism was also vilified because of this endless consumerism and all these things. And so the picture was very bleak. And the only way to change this was, again, off of fossil fuels as fast as possible and tune renewable energy or else the planet would be unlivable. That was the basics. So I sort of secretly started doing my re-education all the way back in 2020. And I read Michael Schellenberger's book, Apocalypse Never. And he debunked a lot of stuff.

36:32And then I read Steve Koonin's book, Unsettled. And Steve Koonin was a Department of Energyist pointy by President Obama. So I really liked that because he was not like an other to me. And both of those books sort of broke my association with some of these biggest narratives, essentially being like, this is not catastrophic. Steve Koonin, I think, is the best to quote because his book Unsettled went into what is like basically saying, hey, this science is unsettled, right? We're all being told that it's settled fact. Anyone who questions it is a climate change denier and you're ostracized. But he was like, hey, I'm telling you, it's really not.

37:07And one of the things that my jaw was on the floor was that extreme weather, hurricanes, droughts, flooding have not gotten worse because of climate change. And when I read that, I was like, you're kidding me. Again, because every time there's an extreme weather event, the news will say it's because of climate change. It's made worse because of climate change. But the IPCC, which is the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which is the UN body that will look up, will look at all of the climate research when they do their big studies on all this stuff. And they are not even able to find in their own work that there's a pattern of increase.

37:43And hurricanes, I think, is a crazy one. There's no pattern. And to the uninitiated, right, you hear in high school, extreme weather's getting worse because of climate change. Then there's Hurricane Katrina, right? And then they're saying, well, look at these billion-dollar hurricanes or billion-dollar damage hurricanes are getting worse. And so you never question that original assumption. And then every time there's a storm, it just, your brain goes, oh, another horrible storm.

38:07Francis Foster:Right. An asteroid hit, that was climate change. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, one of the core claims, I think, uh, that is the most ingrained is the idea that 97 % of climate scientists agree. And then it's kind of unspeakable. That's where it gets a little bit hazy in people's minds because no one kind of knows what it is that the claim is they agree on. Right, exactly. What is the claim? So the claim, oh my gosh, that was one study by a man whose last name is Cook. And I want to be careful. I probably will not say it perfectly, but essentially the takeaway was that he said in his research that he looked at like 12 ,000 studies on climate change and he said 97 % of the scientists said that climate change is happening.

38:52Francis Foster:And it's caused by humans. But no, he just said, I think in that one, it was just that it's happening, but then it got retold by people saying that it's, it's happening. It's caused by humans and it's dangerous. Was like, so the original claim was the temperature, the average temperature is changing. Yeah, it's like going off, basically. And he would count people like in a lot of scientists, when they were like counted, when they heard that they were counted, their papers were counted in the 97%. They were like, yeah, but my paper said like, it wasn't a big deal. Right. So like, but the thing is, it was like a game of telephone because this guy cook, he really wanted to find this so that like, you know, journalists and everyone can now have this thing to go to.

39:26Like, studies say 97 % of scientists agree, which is not true at all. But President Obama in 2013, when this study came out, tweeted that and said 97 % of scientists agree that climate change is happening, it's caused by humans, and it's dangerous. And that was like a really big leap from just the fact that 97 % said that it was happening. And again, there's more people, there are experts on that specific 97 % study. But essentially, there is no consensus on the human-made aspects of climate change. right like we how much we're causing it and there's no consensus on how dangerous it is to us there is a consensus i would say that like the planet is warming but whether it could just be a natural warming um cycle that we're in and i know you just had on ian plimmer who maybe i'm saying is that his last name plimer i think okay well you just said on ian plimer and he i know he is

40:17Francis Foster:a scientist who went into all of that well he's geologist but forget about what he said if you look at the graph of the temperature of this planet over a long period of time, sufficiently long period of time, what we're living through now is just a small and very insignificant change that is not unprecedented in the planet's history, etc. But you say there's no consensus. So there's no consensus among scientists in your view that we are contributing to climate change? I would say, listen, I don't feel like I am necessarily the best expert to be like, these scientists say that stuff. I would say, for me, what I learned from doing all this research is how many scientists, if you question it, you are kicked out of polite society.

41:06You are losing your career, tenure position. And so there's a few really outspoken scientists, like Michael Mann is a very good example, who are touted by the media all the time. And then anyone who questions it, they have been so successfully tarred that people in the media, like what I used to be, they don't even go to those people because they're in their minds like they're clacks. So there's no consensus, I would say, among scientists around the impact we're having and the danger. But the media, like, it's like the media has not caught up with that. And so they always are selling it. Like, the mainstream media, the big outlets you can think of, they're always selling it like it's an existential threat.

41:45It's like they haven't caught up to the fact that there's so many scientists who say there's not a consensus on this stuff. There's gonna be a lot of people who are watching this show who are thinking to themselves, you know, I'm young. I'm in my mid-20s, late-20s, whatever it may be, particularly young women who are enmeshed in these types of movements or social groups, etc. What would you say to them is the most effective way of actually deprogramming and leaving? Yeah, and I think that's the thing, too, is where I feel the most comfortable talking about everything is what can we observe from the last 40 years, the observational data.

42:22Because the climate scientists, they have their fancy models and they're always going with, well, what if, whatever. What we can observe over the past 40 years is the fact that deaths from natural disasters are down 99 % in the past 100 years. So when I always say, if I concede to you that climate change is happening, let's concede everything about the science. Deaths from natural disasters are down 99%, so it's not dangerous. So even if it's happening the way that everyone says it's happening, we're obviously very good at adapting as a species because we've gotten wealthier, we've gotten more technologically advanced.

42:55And so we are not dying the way that we used to from storms, floods, droughts, and all that. So I think that's a really great place to start because it doesn't require you to get into the minutiae of all this other stuff. And like this scientist said this, because I already feel like that's a losing conversation. So the deaths from natural disasters is one I always start out with. Another thing I think is really important is understanding how lopsided the coverage of this is in our media. So they always are pushing the fear and the disaster and, you know, saying things like CO2 is a pollution when CO2 is also a plant food.

43:32And so because we've increased CO2 in the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels, we've seen global greening across the globe by 5, 15 percent, even 25 percent in regions of the globe. That's good news. And so I like to bring in the good news with the supposed bad news and say, hey, let's look at this logically. Like CO2, which is the thing that we're releasing into the atmosphere when we use oil, coal, and natural gas, the plants use it for photosynthesis. We learned this in biology class, right? So, like, before you learned about climate, you learned about this. And so because we've doubled that rate of CO2 in the atmosphere, plants are better at performing CO2.

44:10They're growing—I mean, sorry, they're better at performing photosynthesis. So they're growing bigger. They're growing faster. I love the fact also that greenhouse growers will pump CO2 into their greenhouses up to 1500 ppm parts per million because the plants love it. Versus we're at 420 ppm right now, parts per million, and that's how you measure all this stuff. And so that's like almost three times as much CO2 is going into greenhouses to grow things like our vegetables and our houseplants and all these things. So if CO2 were really such a dangerous boogeyman, why are greenhouse growers putting it into these greenhouses?

44:49And that's the thing I think is really important. And maybe I think why my voice is important in this conversation versus someone who's like the climate scientist who's been studying this 40 years is I know the misinformation that's in the mind of the activists or just the bystander who they think that they're choking on carbon dioxide. Right.

45:08Francis Foster:Do they? Yes. Yes. People just think carbon dioxide is bad. There's an association in their mind that it's a pollution. And so just really attacking those really basic levels of misinformation, I think, is where I play that part. Because I don't think climate scientists necessarily would even know that they have to acknowledge that. Because the misinformation, again, is so wrong. It's so blatant. And like I said, I was in the climate movement for years. I didn't even know what percent of the atmosphere was CO2. And I was in the climate movement for four years. And then I learned it was 0.04%. I resisted creatine for years because I assumed it was for people who spend three hours a day in the gym and refer to themselves in the third person.

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47:07That's Q-U-A-L-I-A-L-I-E dot com slash trig, code trig. Thanks to Qualia for sponsoring the show. And a really key part of your journey, I think, is the fact that you had kids. Yes, yes. And how did that change the way you saw the world? Because when you talk to a lot of women, particularly women who were hyper-liberal at one stage in their life, they have kids or they plan to have kids, and suddenly their view of life completely shifts. Yeah, I think having kids is a really defining moment where you really create boundaries emotionally all of a sudden because you have this life in front of you.

47:51And so you have to kind of... I had to bring in my energy back to the life in front of me. And I think you start to reflect on how you were raised by your parents and the values that they gave you. And I started to realize I really wanted to be raised with the values that my parents raised me with. A gratitude for being American, an appreciation of capitalism, all these sort of basic American values. And I had strayed so far from that. And I think having my first son in 2022, it made me kind of take stock of what are my values and what am I passing on to my son? And I don't, do I want him to be raised to be like some crazy leftist?

48:25Like, no, it's actually a really destructive mindset. And then also the guilt for consumption in the modern world. And I'm looking at my son born in 2022 and going, he didn't choose to be born in 2022. He shouldn't feel guilty for having, you know, fast fashion one day or filling up his car with gas or whatever it may be, right? We don't choose when we're born. So the fact that I was carrying around so much guilt for living a modern life was something I had to let go of because I didn't want to pass it on to my son.

48:54Francis Foster:Can I jump in very quickly here? You mentioned that your parents raised you with what sounds like very good, healthy values. How does one go from that to becoming a crazy leftist? What's the pipeline? Yeah. Because a lot of parents nowadays, including people who watch us and listen to our show, will be thinking like, I want to do right by my kids. I know there's a crazy world out there that's going to teach them a bunch of weird things. I want to protect them. But your parents did do that, right? Yes, my parents did. But again, I don't think that they realize the power of social media. So I think I started to get spending a lot more time on social media through work and in my 20s.

49:35and I think I just started getting exposed to ideas and I think I would say to my parents or like my dad, I'd be like, oh, the world is such an awful place. Like there's so much inequality and suffering. He'd be like, it's not that bad. I don't know like what you're talking about. I'd be like, oh, he's so out of touch. Like he's so privileged. And so I think he didn't really know how to, he didn't really say, Lucy, what are you worried about? Like, I think it's like, get specific. What's so bad about the world? What is it about America? What is it about inequality in America? And I think bringing an international context of other countries and how other people live would have really helped ground me.

50:10Because I started to just think that America was uniquely evil and capitalism was uniquely evil. I had no context and I just kind of fell for it hook, line and sinker, which is embarrassing. And I think...

50:20Francis Foster:By the way, I'm not trying to embarrass you. No, no, I know, but it's really important because it's very common and I'm not embarrassed at all. I don't, I think it's whatever, it's fine. I think it's kind of the issue of our time with this disconnect between the older generations and the social media. And again, it's only gotten worse as the generations have gone on. I think we're a weird generation where we're the first people to be exposed to all this stuff. And I think obviously the way I'm going to raise my kids and their access to social media is going to be so different because I'm going to know what that technology is versus my parents didn't know.

50:54So and I think, I don't know, I think I just I got myself really I just got myself hooked up into the group of this very leftist thinking. And again, when you start to also get career accolades and you start to get success from that and it becomes your social circle, even if you start to question it, which I did when I was in it, I didn't leave it because of all the other things that were then part of my life. and again I will say I think being part of group think and you kind of give up your critical thinking to the group it's a comfortable way to live and even when I would see in the climate movement some contradictions of how like these things were working and I go how are we gonna go exactly net zero like even when I would see those contradictions I would think oh well if I like go against the group I'm gonna have to do a lot of work on myself because it's almost like you're having to stand up against the group and think about all the incoming you're about to get because people are no longer going to be looking at you as like a friendly you're now like an op and they're going to try to take you down all this stuff and so I think that's also why it took me so many years between questioning this stuff and uh going public in 2025 and I think it's really really commendable what you did because there'll be people who'll be watching this who'll be quite judgmental and go you don't know what it's like yeah to be in a group that deep-seated desire all human beings have for a tribe, and then suddenly become aware that actually what you're being told isn't true, and then having to stand up and leave it.

52:26Yeah. And I think a lot of people are going to experience that with a lot of the tribes that they're in. People have joined the MAGA tribe. They're going to find they're uncomfortable with certain aspects of that, with the Dems, whatever it may be. Yeah. And to actually have that, how can I say, consistency of character is really quite, you know, kudos to you, to be honest. I think more people need to reclaim their autonomy and their critical thinking and their mind, because I think that with, again, the algorithms, like we've just given up so much of our thinking. And I think there's so many ways I was talking this a little bit before, but like how they hook you back in.

53:04And I think, you know, even like one of the last ideas I had that kind of kept me in was like, because it was such a nihilistic movement, being part of the climate change movement. And so I thought, oh my gosh, I don't want to think that the world's going to end in 10 years, right? But then I would think, well, maybe the people who are spreading the doom and gloom are smarter than me. Like, I'm optimistic. I'm positive about the state of the world. Well, I'm naive, right? And so, like, you just, like, there's so many ways your mind plays tricks on you to keep you in the group. And again, years of just giving up my voice to the group, even thinking, like, well, I'm a white woman.

53:40Like, who am I to say? Like, which is so silly, but, like, a lot of people live that way. Like the identity politics keeps you in. Yeah, it's very pervasive. And it's also as well, on a more basic level, losing friendships. That is always painful. Yeah, losing friendships, although I feel like everyone whose friendship I lost, obviously were not like, they were my fake friends. Like they were like my colleagues and like sort of my like vaguer like social circle. And so it was, I will say for anyone watching this, they maybe need to leave a group. It's really not actually as bad as you think because the people who are your true friends don't leave you.

54:15And the people who leave you were never really your friends anyway. It was superficial connection. And on the other side of leaving something like this and reclaiming your power over your life and your truth and autonomy, it's so priceless. It's really worth it. Because I always see these types of groups, and again, maybe it's my bias, through the lens of addiction. You get the nihilism. You get addicted to the nihilism. you get addicted to your own sense of self-importance. You get addicted to the fact that you are right and other people are wrong. And then the engagement you receive on social media.

54:49It's a constant feedback loop. It is. Again, in the end, like the phones, like you can never turn it off, right? It's just always there. And I remember anytime I used to get a critique when I was still in this group think, I would spiral. Like if I had any kind of feedback that was like signaling to me that I was not part of the group, I would have anxiety for days because my sense of self was built on sand. Like, I truly was just constantly pinging the group to be like, what are my opinions? Am I a good ally? Am I a good ally? Am I doing everything right to show that I'm, like, part of this movement?

55:23And it was so exhausting. And I say this anecdote sometimes that, like, by the end of it, and this is 2020, and I'm at home during COVID, and I started to binge watch this reality show, Survivor. And I remember thinking I wanted to post, I like Survivor on my Instagram, but I was afraid that people would think it was a privileged opinion because it takes place in Fiji, the global south, and it's like American reality show. And I was like, oh my God, people are gonna think I'm like a privileged woman for liking Survivor. Which is like, that was the level of self-censorship. And I guess this is tangential to the climate stuff, but honestly, it can't be separated.

55:57It was all an overwhelming thing. I will say too, one thing we didn't talk about other than having my son was also living through COVID was a huge moment where I created separation from the group because we were shut down, couldn't leave, freedoms were on hold. And during that whole year, our carbon emissions went down by 5%. And at that point, I'm like, net zero by 2050. And then I'm like, wait a minute. What does net zero want from us? Because I don't want to live in a world where we don't have freedom anymore. And I think that was enough of a window of opening for me to read Michael Schellenberger's book, Apocalypse Never, in 2020.

56:34when it came out. And then that reading began, and I read it secretly. And that was enough for it. Then I stopped posting. And then I started reading books and educating myself privately. And I truly thought I was never going to post again. I was like, I'm just gonna keep my opinions to myself, take it to my grave, and just help build the free press for Barry and all this stuff. But then I think this past year in 2025, May of 2025, I was kind of looking around, and I started to realize that the climate narrative wasn't like neutral, right? Like to stay silent was actually irresponsible because of the damage it's doing to our energy system and the nihilism it's pushing to young people.

57:15And so I think I kind of had to have like a come to Jesus moment where I'm like, okay, there's like two roads. What do I want my life to represent? Because in the end of the day, I don't want to be on my deathbed one day and saying I never spoke up because I was afraid. because, and then it became something bigger than myself. Like, okay, I'm going to speak out because I'm doing this for young people. I'm doing this for affordability. Like, and I had just had to like kind of transmute it to be able to then put myself out there because I'm like, okay, this is like bigger than me. And I mean, look, it's led to conversations like this.

57:50And so I'm so happy that I did because I feel like people don't realize this climate movement stuff is so destructive. Yeah. whether it's on our economy or just like the mindsets of young people. And so it really needs to change. Evening. Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car? I'll be moving in. Let's get started. Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no... No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyer's rejoice. I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana.

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59:10Francis Foster:Not login counts, real data. It also flags where you're leaving value on the table so you know exactly where to invest next. They won the 2025 IntelliX Digital Innovator Award and they're backed by the Andreessen Horowitz and Bloomberg Beta. This is a serious platform in a space full of noise. If AI is already running inside your organization, now is the moment to get control of it. Head to larrydin.com today and book a demo to start maximizing impact from AI. Well, one of the things you mentioned there, backtracking a little bit, that I've been very curious about recently is you talked about how when you weren't clear what your opinion was supposed to be or if your opinion was challenged in any way, it caused you to feel really strong anxiety.

59:52Francis Foster:and and we have noticed that whenever we have engaged with people who have more of that mindset it's like you can never you can never talk about ideas right because there's always an emotional reaction do you think this is what's happening it's like if you have that mindset and I say to well have you heard about this or are you aware of that or you know I see a flaw in that logic it's not like we're discussing the ideas I'm like threatening your entire existence is that what's happening? Exactly, yeah. It's threatening the identity, and that's why they can't have the conversation. Wow. So how do you, can you win those people over?

1:00:28I mean, I think you have, we have to, honestly, because...

1:00:31Francis Foster:But can you? Well, I mean, I'm here. Yeah. I don't know how I made it. I think, I think... Can we take credit? Yeah, yeah. I was watching you guys in 2020. We radicalized you, and we're delighted to have that. The radicalization of Lucy Vickers. No, I think, yes. Okay, so yes, I think we can win them over. I think we're moving out of this emotional heightened space that we were in. I honestly, I keep... What? I think we are. What? Yeah, I'm here. Look around. It's only getting worse. Yeah. No, I think it's becoming more visible. I think it's not. I don't think it's getting worse. I mean, I don't know.

1:01:03This is where I feel that it is now. I mean, it's not like I'm not taking polling or anything like that. But I think that the fact of the matter is this heightened emotional state we've been in because of social media and because of Trump derangement syndrome for the last 10 years, I think it's like something's got to give. And I think that ultimately more and more people are speaking out against like their own experience in like what I call like the blob now or the like ideology and the leftist ideology. There's so many people who are decamping from it. So many. And it's probably as millennials are getting older.

1:01:33But I know so many influencers who are like at my level of following who are similar stories, but maybe like not climate activists, but just activists. And so I think we just need more people to tell their story. And I think it has to, I don't know, if something has to give, it has to change eventually. Because I think, oh, there's a lot of silent people, maybe, who they've stopped posting, right? Like, even that. Like, that silent period is really big. Because for me, that was five years. I didn't post. I was just sort of taking things in. And hopefully, like, my story, as an example, it helps people who are maybe going through that transition to orient towards something where they can like relate to bits of my story.

1:02:13And then also hopefully not think I'm a right wing nut and like write me off, which does happen a little bit.

1:02:18Francis Foster:I was going to ask you about that, actually, because one of the things that we've, as you well know, I imagine since you watch our show is we've always tried to find, you know, the highest value for us is balance and truth. Yeah. But nonetheless, the moment you question the progressive movement, you immediately become in a right wing or whatever, whatever in their minds. When you were kind of in that space, what do you think were some of the most effective ways of reaching someone who has that point of view without being immediately put in a kind of right wing box or whatever it might be? Is there something that like we and others can do to make ourselves more palatable and to actually reach across that aisle?

1:03:02Francis Foster:Or you're laughing, which makes me worried. I mean, I think it's going to have to come from the people who are still in it to be ready for it. Right. And again, my experience of having my son and living through COVID were two shifting experiences that I was open to it. And so I think it has to come from the person because again, it's like, if I had the answer to that, I would be like a millionaire because that's what everyone wants to know. And I get caught. I get messages a lot that are like, oh my God, to help me. Like you're giving me hope for my daughter. I can't reach her because she's And so I think also just like, I think in person, showing up as a normal, kind, good person in your life and how you act in your life, I think for me that was interesting, because I would see people who were very conservative, but they also had a lot of really lovely values.

1:03:50And I would be like, wait a minute, they're kind of like a better person than I am. You know? And I'm like this, like, always like, armchair, you know, activist over here. Actually, I will say, you know, Do you guys know who Ricky Schlott is? Yes, we've had her on the show. Oh, you have? I love her. Actually, she actually plays a really big part in my story because when I left Now This, that left-wing place, and then I had one year at a non-profit, Ricky was there, and I sat next to her. And she's a libertarian, sort of like small-c conservative, and she wears a cross on her neck. And I had never worked with a conservative who was my peer my whole career.

1:04:25And she was awesome. And I'm like, this girl's so smart. She's so confident in her perspective, and she stands up for what she believes in. And she was modeling to me the type of person that I would want to be. And, but she had conservative values, but she was so kind about it. And she actually introduced me to Barry Weiss's podcast, honestly, and she said, you should listen to this, you would like her. And she could pick up from talking to me that I was not as left-wing as I had once been. But in my mind, Barry was like a fascist. Which is crazy. Because I worked at this really left-wing place, And so she was a name that would regularly get tossed onto Slack and then they would like drag her.

1:05:02So it's just like, that's where I was coming from, which is pretty crazy. And so when I listened to Barry's podcast back in 2021, whenever that came out, or I guess it was 2022, whenever it came out, I listened to it and I'm like, wait a minute, she's not a fascist at all. She's awesome. And then I was like, actually, this is really great conversation. This is really good content. And that was a big awakening for me. Cause I'm like, oh, I've been labeling this woman as like this right wing nut. I'm listening to her podcast. It's normal. It's actually really good because all the content I'd been consuming when I was really on the left was so boring.

1:05:32It was all the same, you know, identity politics and boring stuff. And so that was a huge, like, shift. So, again, that one interaction was enough to, like, totally. But I was ready for it.

1:05:44Francis Foster:Sure. And I think that's a really important part of it because, like, when the student is ready, the teacher magically emerges. But also I was wondering if you, and you're a parent now, of course, I'm sure you've thought about this. as a parent, what can one do to help their children kind of just navigate this? I'm not saying you have to brainwash them into your worldview, but how do you, like the word you use that I love, inoculate. How do you inoculate your children against this craziness? Yeah, I think you have to do counter programming, right? You have to show if they come home from school really upset about something and thinking America is the worst.

1:06:25You know, you have to say, listen, we have a complex history, but you know, we also are responsible for X, Y, and Z, you know, and showing them the good parts of American history or also like showing them other countries that are so awful. Like their leadership, like I didn't know like how bad Stalin and Mao were. I did not know. I didn't know. I really thought that like we were just the worst country, which is really, it's so sad. That's such a common thing. You laugh, but like, that's what every leftist thinks.

1:06:54Francis Foster:That's so crazy to me. I always say, though, when people ask me the same question, I'm like, I am so lucky because I have family living in poor countries. Right. So the moment, if my son ever said something, like, oh, we live in the world, I'd be like, okay, three months in Armenia. Bye-bye. You're staying with grandma. No, I'm serious. No, seriously. You know? It's this, like, Western privileged person that we truly just don't know how good we have it. And unfortunately, the education system, the culture, the movies, the shows, the social media, everything is pushing the same ideology. So it's so pervasive.

1:07:25And unless you just really have someone who's intentionally saying like, hey, like, hold on, like, let's look at this full circle. And I think for me, if someone had said that to me when I was kind of first getting into it, my early 20s, and I guess I had conversations with my dad and he just sort of said, the world's not that bad. But he didn't show me evidence. Right. And not no fault of his own. But I think that was a moment where like if he had said, hey, look at how tens of millions of people died, you know, under this like despotic leader, whatever. I think that would have helped, I think, ground me and not had me get swept up into it as much.

1:08:00But it's also as well, let's be honest, your peers at that point in your life are more important to you than your parents. So true. Yeah. So if you're surrounded, if that's literally what you imbibe with the opinions that you hear, the conversations that you have, and all your friends are echoing this particular viewpoint, it's quite natural that you're going to take it on. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think one of the things is, and one of the things that gives us hope is that we're now more aware of social media and the effects that it's having on young people. Yes, exactly. I think so, too. So hopefully we're going to get to a point where we realize that what we see on our phones ain't always the truth.

1:08:40I know. Well, and with AI and stuff, it's like only getting crazier with like being able to tell like what the truth is, too. So I think you're going to have to just like by using the Internet now, you have to just be like, is what I'm saying? You have to fact check every single thing that you see. You totally do. Especially if it gets an illicit emotional reaction, because, you know, now I have my own triggers that are more on the other side. and I will, if I get really worked up by a tweet after, I have to be like, wait, let me just make sure this tweet's actually accurate. Some of the stuff going on in the UK, I follow.

1:09:08I'm like, oh my God, who's getting arrested for a tweet? And then sometimes it is still true. But yeah, I think having that moment of taking a beat, letting the emotion pass, kind of clear-headed, okay, what actually is happening here is so important. Absolutely, because when you see a tweet, you go, all right, that can, it's only a tweet and that can be a small part of the truth, but it's not going to be the whole truth. Right, exactly.

1:09:33Francis Foster:So, yeah. The last bit of this interview is just Francis making points and Lucy going, yeah, exactly. That was the last four questions. He's making great points. I don't deny that at all. Lucy, it's been great having you on. We're going to go to questions from our supporters in a second. Before we do, though, what is the one thing that we're not talking about that we really should be? Oh, my God, you're putting me on the spot. I was just, like, listening to Francis over here. Yeah, well, he was just smashing. I was relaxing. I was like, yes, yes. I think the thing that people really need to understand that even took me a while to get through is that, you know, the climate movement actually is not a force for good.

1:10:17It's not your friend. And I think hearing that, depending on where you're coming from, sounds very extreme. But when you actually look at its impacts on reality with the energy costs going up our dependence on our adversaries for energy, whether it's China, the renewable supply chain, or even like Europe having to use Russia. And then also the nihilism, the anxiety among young people, basically a mental health crisis for young people. All of these things. Oh, and also I will say the filification of fossil fuels, which I think are the best technology that's ever happened in the last 150 years. When you take all those things objectively, this is not a neutral movement.

1:10:56It's actually hurting society. and the quicker people can kind of come to that conclusion and help push against these really destructive narratives, I think, the better.

1:11:04Francis Foster:Oh, you know, by the way, I was going to ask you one question that I forgot, and I want to ask you. When you were in the kind of climate movement, did you ever get confronted with the idea of nuclear energy and the fact that it's actually incredibly carbon... Neutral, yeah. Yes, but of course, for whatever reason, that was also like a third rail and you weren't allowed to support nuclear energy. Supporting nuclear energy in the climate movement when I was a part of it, was, like, edgy. If you're like, well, I support nuclear. Like, they basically, because the climate movement that I was in was kind of like a degrowth society that, like, hated the West.

1:11:35So they were just like, just solar and wind, which are the worst technologies. And nuclear now has kind of come back. And there's a lot of practical people, I will say, who support nuclear. But back in my very activist-y world, nuclear was not seen as a solution. And also, the climate activists would say stuff like, well, we can't innovate our way out of this problem. We can't innovate our way out of it. I'm like, what? Like, we innovate our way out of every other problem ever. But for some reason with climate, like, this nihilism was pushed to such a degree that they were like, no, they just want you to say we can have nuclear so you can keep consuming at the level that you want and keep capitalism the level that you want.

1:12:08Like, it became... Yeah, that's what we want. Yeah, I know. I was like, yeah, sounds great. But once you realize that the movement is founded by people who put, like, the value of life on Earth and nature over humanity, it makes sense. Like, they prioritize untouched nature and a perfect untouched earth over human flourishing. And that is like the flip you need to switch and realize that the goal isn't untouched nature. The goal is human flourishing. And once that makes, once you make that movement in your mind, you can still care about conservation. You can still care about the animals and all these things and cutting down on pollution, but you need to prioritize humans, which the climate movement, it's most ardent supporters, which is what I was part of, don't prioritize human life over, like they want like an untouched perfect planet from like before we were born so all right head

1:13:00Francis Foster:on over to triggerpod.co.uk where lucy's going to answer your questions if climate doomism is exaggerated what environmental issues do you think actually deserve attention

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