In short
The hosts react to the assassination of Charlie Kirk and debate how political rhetoric (especially labeling opponents “fascist”/“Nazi” and “words are violence”) can incentivize real-world violence. They also discuss monetization/conspiracy theories after the killing, and analyze a UK rally connected to Tommy Robinson, including claims about who attended and the level of violence. They further debate “cancel culture” and whether broadcasters/educators should be fired for celebrating violence.
Guests (hosts)
The transcript is between two recurring hosts; names aren’t clearly provided. One host is “Francis” (referred to directly). The other host is “Constantine” (referred to directly). Both describe themselves as comedians (one former, one current) and discuss media/politics.
Key claims
- “Words are violence” is used to justify violence; labeling someone a Nazi/fascist “puts a target on their back.”
- It’s “not a both-sides issue” regarding celebratory reactions to Kirk’s death.
- Social media dehumanizes opponents into “avatars,” enabling celebration.
- Some people profit from the tragedy with conspiracies (including Israel-related insinuations).
Notable examples
- Oxford Union president allegedly endorsed violence after Kirk’s assassination (“let’s go”).
- Echo-chamber misinformation: Stephen King and Alastair Campbell allegedly claimed Kirk said anti-gay stances.
- Jimmy Kimmel allegedly said the shooter was MAGA; hosts argue comedy defenses don’t excuse misinformation.
- UK protest: hosts attended; describe it as largely working-class with football-like chanting; they cite police injuries and say violence was “surprisingly low” for the crowd size.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Danger of Labels
0:00 to 1:09
Exploring the consequences of branding individuals as fascists or Nazis.
“This is a 30-year-old guy, a father of two young children, who are now going to grow up without him.”
Reflections on Charlie Kirk
1:20 to 4:30
Discussing the impact and legacy of Charlie Kirk after his assassination.
“Are you looking for a beach read this summer?”
The Consequences of Rhetoric
4:30 to 6:50
Analyzing how inflammatory language creates a dangerous environment.
“You know, I don't think the reason we felt stunned and shocked by what happened is that of our proximity to him.”
Violence and Political Discourse
6:50 to 9:00
The implications of equating words with violence in political discussions.
“And you're giving them a pass to go and do the most despicable things a human being can do, which is kill another person.”
The Moral Responsibility of Language
9:00 to 12:00
Examining the moral implications of labeling political opponents destructively.
“people on the left who openly condone and celebrate the murder of their political opponents.”
Understanding Fascism
12:00 to 14:01
A deep dive into the definition and implications of the term fascism.
“And I think a lot of the things he's been saying since have been really actually exactly the way the left should talk about these issues.”
Understanding Fascism and Accusations
14:01 to 16:55
Exploration of the term fascism and its serious implications in political discourse.
“I don't think they'd be able to explain that.”
The Consequences of Ideological Indoctrination
16:56 to 18:50
Discussion on the impact of ideological indoctrination on future generations and political engagement.
“You know, they'll grow up and they'll be fine.”
Social Media's Role in Dehumanization
18:51 to 22:38
Analyzing how social media contributes to the dehumanization of individuals in political debates.
“But I don't if somebody on the on the left or somebody that I personally, someone who's, let's say, uber woke.”
Monetizing Tragedy and Loss of Humanity
25:47 to 28:00
Critique of individuals exploiting tragedies for gain and the loss of moral perspective.
“And those people need to really have a wake up moment right here, right now.”
Show all 24 chapters
Exploring the Discrediting of Influential Figures
28:00 to 29:44
Discussion on how certain public figures can discredit themselves through their actions and statements.
“And we saw the people, very few people, but influential people who, before we even knew anything, started to try and make it about Israel or other things.”
Profiting from Tragedy: A Disgusting Reality
29:44 to 30:38
Condemnation of individuals exploiting the death of a public figure for personal gain.
“But these people who claim to be his friends are literally profiting from his death.”
Cynicism and Public Reactions to Death
30:38 to 31:28
Exploration of how public figures react to the deaths of controversial individuals based on personal beliefs.
“And if that's the most important thing for you, that's your incentive structure, then why are you going to be truthful?”
Debating Hate Speech and Free Speech
31:28 to 32:38
Discussion on the complexities of hate speech versus free speech in political discourse.
“Like what he did in Iraq was evil, objectively.”
The Jimmy Kimmel Controversy
32:38 to 34:01
Analysis of Jimmy Kimmel's remarks and the implications of cancel culture in comedy.
“As we sit here this morning, Jimmy Kimmel has just been put on leave, is it?”
Navigating the Responsibility of Comedians
34:01 to 36:24
Exploring the fine line between comedy and serious political discourse.
“I'm not saying I'm not going to give my opinion either way just yet, but I think we look, I'm a former comedian.”
The Role of Satire and Serious Commentary
36:24 to 37:29
Discussion on how satire can blur the lines of truth and serious commentary in media.
“himself as a serious political commentator, which is fundamentally disingenuous that he then retreats to that position.”
Accountability in Political Commentary
37:29 to 39:59
Debate on the responsibility of public figures to provide accurate information.
“There are a lot of batshit crazy conspiracy theories on the right.”
Consequences of Controversial Statements
39:59 to 42:00
Exploring the repercussions of public figures' statements and their impact.
“I just, I think deep down my concerns are that when we, look, Batum, like I said, but with Jimmy, I just worry that it's going to degenerate in just interpellation.”
Debate on Professional Conduct and Cancel Culture
42:00 to 46:21
Listeners will learn about the complexities surrounding professional responsibilities and opinions in the workplace.
“I don't think if you're teaching children.”
Reflections on the Tommy Robinson Rally
47:23 to 56:03
The hosts share their experiences and insights from attending a recent political rally and discuss its implications.
“That is another thing that, you know, there's been a lot of rhetoric about.”
The Extremity of Rally Speakers
56:03 to 1:01:10
Discussion on the extreme rhetoric of speakers at the rally and its implications.
“particularly from Europe yep absolutely were fringe and so I almost think the people on stage were on balance more extreme than the people in the crowd.”
Frustration of the Working Class
1:01:11 to 1:04:26
Exploration of the disconnection between mainstream politicians and the working class.
“and the Diane Abbott and our beloved mayor, Sadiq Khan, that's sarcasm for the Americans, can't actually understand that smearing them as far right, smearing them as racist, do not understand where this is leading.”
The Political Landscape and Economic Concerns
1:04:27 to 1:06:54
Analysis of the political climate and impending fiscal crises in the UK.
“Every government, right, left, or centre, runs out of steam.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01Francis Foster:This is a 30-year-old guy, a father of two young children, who are now going to grow up without him. When you label and smear somebody as a fascist and a Nazi, you are putting a target on their back. We've got to be honest and acknowledge that this is not a both-sides issue. It just isn't. If we're going to talk about people monetizing this tragedy, I mean, what we've seen in the last few days on the right, I think I'm probably as horrified by that as I am by the celebrations of Charlie Cook's assassination. The United Kingdom protest, you and I both went along. That is another thing that, you know, there's been a lot of rhetoric about.
0:43Konstantin Kisin:Smearing them as far right, smearing them as racist. Do not understand where this is leading. And a week after Charlie Cook, he was continuing to use the same rhetoric, the same language, the same words. And I'm angry. And I'm angry because it's dangerous. Because this is a powder keg.
1:00Francis Foster:Relax, relax. This is not an ad. I just wanted to let you know that you can watch this video without any advertising at all. No interruptions, no pop-ups, nothing. Just go to triggerpod.co.uk or click the link below and join thousands of our supporters who watch all our interviews with exclusive bonus content ad-free. Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer? may I suggest your big wireless bill. It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc, and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint's story is better.
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1:51Francis Foster:Francis, so it's been exactly a week, as we sit here recording this, since Charlie Kirk was assassinated. One of the things we didn't want to do is talk about it straight away. And I think you see why. We didn't want to talk about it while emotions are raw. And emotions are very raw. Look, they were raw for both of us because two days, literally 48 hours before he was killed,
2:18Konstantin Kisin:we were booked to actually interview him and both you and I were really excited about this. We saw Charlie as being a really important figure in MAGA, in modern day republicanism. He was the face of conservatism, particularly for young people in America and in the UK. You know, this was somebody who was a galvanizing force for young people across social media. I think he had a significant impact in the election. People talk a lot about Rogan or the Theos having Trump on and J.D. Vance's. I think people underestimated the real impact that Charlie had amongst people who were around the age of 30, but also the younger people as well, galvanizing them, making them think in a more conservative manner.
3:02Konstantin Kisin:This guy was a real force of conservative and Christian politics.
3:08Francis Foster:It's interesting you say that because I think you're right that a lot of people underestimated him. I don't think many people who knew him underestimated him. From everyone we've spoken to, particularly since his murder, lots of people were saying, like, the moment we met this guy, we knew he was going to be president one day and we're all going to be working for him. But actually, I would confess that I was one of the people that underestimated him because for the reasons actually that you've outlined, when you say, well, he's the Christian conservative voice. I'm like, we've had those on the show.
3:40Francis Foster:I don't really need to know much more about what that group of people think. Not because there's anything wrong with what they think, but that point of view has been well represented on trigonometry. But then I saw a clip of him on Gavin Newsom's podcast and they were talking about why the left is so unwilling to engage in debate and why their ideas are so fragile. And I thought it was incredibly insightful. And that's when I I was like, oh, OK, this guy is actually a real genuine thinker. This is someone who has ideas of his own, who can articulate and explain things. Not that he's heard from someone else or not that he's read in the Bible or whatever.
4:19Francis Foster:This guy is actually smart and talented. And that's when we wanted to interview him. And as you say, two days before, it was confirmed that we were going to. So but it's not I don't think it's just about that. You know, I don't think the reason we felt stunned and shocked by what happened is that of our proximity to him. I just I know from speaking to lots and lots of people now. It was just a very shocking moment for a lot of people, because partly some of the things that many of us have been saying for a long time were actually coming true in the sense that, you know, if if you keep labeling people as Nazis and fascists, you are going to create a situation where some crazy guy thinks it's true.
5:11Francis Foster:And I've made this point many, many times as a view. If you thought that our country was about to actually be overrun with Nazis and fascists, wouldn't it be your duty to pick up a rifle and go and fight them? Would it not? Wouldn't that? I mean, that's what our grandparents did. when they thought this country was about to overrun by Nazis, they went and enlisted and fought. Isn't that what you would expect young men to do?
5:41Konstantin Kisin:Well, exactly, exactly. But, and this is the very dangerous situation that we find ourselves in this country, but more pertinently America, where people are incentivized to use this language. The more hyperbolic you are, the more inflammatory your choice of language, the more reactionary you are the greater your engagement the greater engagement the more followers you get the more followers you get the more notoriety that you have and ultimately the more money that you generate that is a perverse incentive structure for the commentariat class that is perverse because what it does is it incentivizes the worst type of behavior and we've seen time and time again people on the left but we're now seeing it with people on the right.
6:28Konstantin Kisin:Some people that I know and that we've even had on this show, I'm actually getting very worried by the way that they're speaking online. Well, I'm going, this is the type of argument that the left were doing before, and it's completely lacking in nuance. It's inflammatory, it's incendiary, and it's appealing to our worst and our most base instincts. And that is a very worrying place to be because there are people in this country and in the United States who have very severe mental health problems or they're vulnerable or they're just psychotic or whatever words you want to use, evil even. And you're giving them a pass to go and do the most despicable things a human being can do, which is kill another person.
7:16Francis Foster:Well, the permission structure is definitely, I think, and I think there's something really, really important for us to delineate here, because I've seen this when I've said, well, look, when you call people Nazis and fascists, this is what you're doing. People go, well, are you saying words of violence, Constantine? Oh, I got you. No, you haven't, dickhead. You haven't got me, because words of violence is a slogan that was used to say, you've said something that offends me. My feelings are hurt. And that is the same as violence. That is not the same as saying when you label somebody a fascist and a Nazi, i.e.
7:50Francis Foster:a threat to democracy and a threat to our country, you are putting a target on the back. Not only are these statements not the same, in actual fact, the claim that words are violence is another way of justifying the killing of Charlie Cook and people like him. Because what you're saying is his opinions are offensive to me. That is the same as violence. Well, if it's the same as violence, then you're necessarily, just if you look at the way people think. If I use violence towards you, most people would agree that you're entitled to use violence back to me. So we're not saying words are violence.
8:24Francis Foster:On the contrary, we are saying words are not violence. And this is another important part of this whole conversation. Words are not violence. And when someone says something that offends you, you're not entitled to use violence against them. But when you label and smear somebody as a fascist and a Nazi, you are putting a target on their back. And the thing that I think we have to concede here, I mean, you talk about the reaction from some people on the right, and we'll get to it because a lot of it has been really constructive and sensible and accurate and wise. Some of it's been deranged, as you'd expect.
8:59Francis Foster:But if you want to talk about deranged, you have to concede now that there is a sizable number of people on the left who openly condone and celebrate the murder of their political opponents. That's a fact. That is what we saw. And, you know, look, for balance, we should also say that there are a lot of reasonable people on the left. I don't know if you've had, I've had hundreds of messages from people who are going, look, I don't agree with Charlie Kirk. I don't even agree with you, frankly. but this is outrageous and the way people reacted to this is outrageous and this is completely unacceptable and I agree for our country I agree for our society so that we have seen that but but also let's be honest among young people in particular the belief that words are violence and therefore you're entitled to use violence against people whose words you disagree with
9:56Konstantin Kisin:is widespread now of course and we saw that with the case of the Oxford Union president who debated Charlie Kirk at the Oxford Union. When he heard that he'd been assassinated, he used the words, let's go, and then openly endorses violence against political enemies or those people he deems to be incorrect or wrong. And he's quite happy to admit that. So you're going at the most prestigious debating chamber in the world, in the world, where people go from a row across the globe to debate, to share ideas, to be in that particular cauldron, you are advocating that it is acceptable. If somebody says something that you disagree with, that you think is wrong, you think it's acceptable to kill them.
10:45Konstantin Kisin:That shows a moral rot at the very heart of our culture. And the left need to be quiet. And there have been people on the left, Cenk Weigar's actually been very good on this, who have condemned this. But everybody needs to come out and be blunt and be honest and say, no, we cannot have this. And Charlie said this himself. There was a very moving interview where someone asked him why he does this because he said, because if we stop talking, we're going to end up at civil war. But when you kill your enemies for talking, what are you going to stop them doing? You're going to stop them talking. And if we carry on down this path, that's where we end up.
11:23Francis Foster:Yeah. And look, a lot of the political debate about it. I mean, look, I respect Cenk for the way he's reacted to this. I also have to say, and I said this to his face when I was on Piers Morgan, and we shouldn't shy away from this. Now, the way he's reacted to this particular incident is in an attempt to dial down the tensions. And I think he's right to do that. And I respect that. But you also have to acknowledge that when we had him on the show exactly a year ago, he was one of the people who spent 20 minutes trying to convince me that President Trump is a fascist. And it wasn't very persuasive.
11:55Francis Foster:No. So if this is now the opportunity for a lot of people to look at their rhetoric and dial it back, I think we've got to encourage that and support that and respect that. And if Cenk is one of them, brilliant. Good on him. And I think a lot of the things he's been saying since have been really actually exactly the way the left should talk about these issues. But I also think there's been far too much of this. And people often accuse me of like being a both sides guy and looking at this and looking at that. And I do try to be objective about things. But I have to say, we've got to be honest and acknowledge that this is not a both sides issue.
12:32Francis Foster:It just isn't. Yes, of course, dialing up the rhetoric has happened on both sides. And you mentioned media commentators. It's also true of politicians. Politicians are incentivized to say, if we don't win this election, the roof is going to fall in on the world. and we are living in heated times and it does feel existential for a lot of people. But there is a difference between saying fight like hell. This is, you know, if we lose this election, your country is gone and whatever. That ratchets up the general pressure. But when you call specific individuals Nazis and fascists, that is a completely different thing.
13:12Francis Foster:you're putting a target on their back because you're saying this specific person is like this person in history who we all have been trained to hate, rightly so, for the last 70, 80 years. If you're saying this person is Hitler, you are putting a target on their back. That's just a fact. And that is not the same as ratcheting up the pressure, which both sides have been doing and both sides need to stop doing.
13:35Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. What this shows is a complete lack of education. because I guarantee if you sat down with these people who were throwing these words about and going, could you please explain to me the political ideology of fascism? What are the tenets of fascism? Just explain it to me. We can talk communism, we can talk liberalism, but you've said fascism. What does it mean to be a fascist? What do you believe in? What actually is fascism? The ideology at its roots. At its roots. I don't think they'd be able to explain that. I don't think they'd be able to give a coherent explanation of what fascism actually is.
14:11Konstantin Kisin:So to them, it's just almost just a label. It's something that I disagree with. It's something that is morally reprehensible. And what they're not doing is understanding how serious that accusation is. It's like the term pedophile. If you didn't understand what that meant and you just thought, oh, this is a despicable person. Oh, he voted. He votes reform. Oh, you're a pedo. Well, if you say that enough time, people are going to be like, what? Then why is he walking past the school? And we're just like, well, I'm going to pick up my daughter. No, you're a pedophile. Then what happens? That person is going to get severely hurt.
14:44Konstantin Kisin:You need to actually understand what it is that you're accusing somebody of. Because this isn't just a label. It has a meaning. Fascism is a political ideology. Understand it or stop using that word. And the same with Nazis.
15:00Francis Foster:using. And the other thing is you saw as well, I think that there are these echo chambers now. I mean, there are a number of people, Stephen King, I think was one of them, Alastair Campbell here in Britain as well. They both wrongly tweeted that Charlie Kirk was somebody who said that gay people should be stunned. They shared this to millions of people. And you're going, you clearly must know literally nothing about Charlie Kirk because I didn't follow his work closely, but I broadly was aware of his work. And there is no possible way that you can believe he said that and know anything about him because you just know that is not the sort of person that he was and is not the sort of thing that he would have said.
15:44Francis Foster:And in any case, we've got into the politics of it quite quickly. The thing that we need to say, look, I've said it for a week now and maybe that's why we didn't open with it. This is a 30-year-old guy, a father of two young children who are now going to grow up without him. And at the end of the day, that is the only thing that matters here. That is the only thing that matters. A man's life has been taken away and he has been taken away from his children and his wife for speaking to people on college campuses, which is exactly where that this kind of robust debate needed to happen. Yeah. That is what happened.
16:23Francis Foster:That is what happened. And I don't know what the right word is for how wrong, evil, and horrific that is. And for anyone to celebrate it, I just think they've got some kind of, they have been failed very badly by their education system. And, you know, I don't know if you remember this, But when I, if you remember in 2018, when I turned down that safe space contract and a lot of people were saying to me, Constantine, why are you making such a big deal about it? It's just students. It's just people at university. You know, they'll grow up and they'll be fine. No, this is what I said at the time.
17:03Francis Foster:You don't understand. 10, 15, 20 years from now, these very same people who are now these stupid students who are celebrating someone being murdered, they're going to be in charge of the country. They're going to be making decisions. They're going to be running things. They're going to be running banks. They're going to be running companies. They're going to be running political organizations. They're going to be running the country. And they have been indoctrinated with this horrific ideology. And they think it's fine to kill people now, some of them. It's gross.
17:35Konstantin Kisin:Look, of course it's disgusting. But I think also we have to accept as well that social media has played its part. in that when these people go online, they see these people not as real people, but as avatars. These are avatars. They're not real people. They don't interact with them every day. They don't see them. They're not their friends. And so if somebody is an avatar, they're not human. If they're not human, it's very easy to dehumanize them. Call them Nazi. Call them whatever you want. Because what is the impact? It's not like I'm walking up to you at a bar and going, I think you're X, Y, and Z.
18:09Konstantin Kisin:You'd turn around to me and go, and then a very real encounter happens because it's real life. So if somebody dies and they're not human, then it's like a computer game. I mean, social media in many ways is a glorified computer game. So Charlie is assassinated. Your enemy in the computer game is killed. You celebrate. And I think as terrible as I've just explained, I think that's a large part of it. And I think we as a culture, as a society, as a generation and the younger generations, we're in real danger of losing our souls and our humanity.
18:50Francis Foster:I don't think you're wrong about that, but I also have to push back on this as well, because I think you're right. The effect is there. But I don't if somebody on the on the left or somebody that I personally, someone who's, let's say, uber woke. Yeah. Right. I don't want to name names because, you know, for obvious reasons. that people would assume that I hate because they're my political opponent. If they were shot in front of an audience of people they came to debate and killed in that way, I have social media, I wouldn't be celebrating. I would be horrified. Pick out a person that you think I hate the most in the world, whoever that is, in your head.
19:35Francis Foster:right and imagine that happening to them and all i can think of this is horrific yeah whoever did this obviously has to be punished to the worst extent but we've got to like stop this this is completely unacceptable and i have social media i'm on twitter all the time but i don't want to see my political opponents killed so what i'm saying is we can blame social media all we want but there's something else going on here yeah i also think it's a generational thing as well I think if you've been raised on this stuff, I think not that you're going to, but I think you're more likely to believe and think in that way.
20:08Konstantin Kisin:I genuinely do. I think one of the things that we're very lucky is that we remember a time before social media. We remember a time before all this stuff happened. So because you remember a time before it happened, you have a deeper connection and rooting with reality. And I sometimes think that, look, I think it's the ideology. Of course, the ideology plays a part. I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm also saying that the way that we're interacting and staring at our screens, I think it's destroying a generation mentally.
20:44Francis Foster:I think it's unhelpful, but I'm sorry, Francis. I'm not down with this. People need to take some accountability here. The teachers, the college professors, the influencers, the people who go on social media, the podcasters, all the people that have created an environment where young people now think violence is acceptable. I don't give a shit about their use of social media. Like, this is not the right way to be thinking about this. And I'm not going to let anyone off the hook with this. It's not acceptable.
21:16Konstantin Kisin:I agree with you. I agree with you. I just think that is a fundamental part of the puzzle as well.
21:21Francis Foster:I agree. No, that part I agree with. But I don't think that should be remotely an excuse for this way of thinking. The reason that they think this way is first and foremost what they've been taught, what they've been taught ideologically to think about their political opponents. And this decade we've had now of constant demonization of your political opponents as Nazis and fascists, all of this. That's where this is coming from. That's where this is coming from. Social media, of course, you're right. But the thing with social media is social media amplifies everything. Yeah. If you put good stuff out, that also gets amplified by social media.
21:55Francis Foster:My Instagram feed is because of what I'm following on there. It's just people talking about parenting in a funny way and whatever. My point is good messages also get amplified. Yeah. Right. So at the end of the day, it's about people who are putting out the messages. Yes. They are the ones responsible.
Read the full transcript
22:11Konstantin Kisin:Agreed. And they need to take responsibility for that. Absolutely. 100%. Because I think, and I see a lot of these people, I go, do you actually, genuinely, genuinely, do you actually think about the impact this is having? Or are you just thinking in a purely monetary, very, very functional business? oh, this clip did X, this clip did Y, this got X amount of followers, this got Y amount of engagement. Is that how you think about it? Or are you actually thinking to yourself, this is having a very real world impact? If you've been following the immigration debate, you'll know how different the headlines can look depending on where you get your news.
22:55Konstantin Kisin:We use ground news to help us step outside the echo chamber. It shows you how the same story is framed differently across the political spectrum. So you can compare headlines and decide for yourself. Take the story about a massive immigration raid at a Hyundai plant in Georgia, USA. Follow along at ground.news slash trigonometry. Using Ground News, straight away we can quickly see that the story is being covered by outlets across the board. However, scrolling down the page, Ground News allows me to easily compare the headlines. We can see CNN, which is firmly on the left, highlighted that nearly 500 workers were taken, while Fox News, on the right, framed the raid as bold action.
23:41Konstantin Kisin:Ground News shows us that broadly left-leaning outlets focused on immigrants and workers, center-leaning outlets simply reported the number detained, and right-leaning outlets emphasized illegal workers. Ground News compiles these divergent perspectives into one place. Another feature we use heavily at Trigonometry is their Blindspot feed, which shows you where coverage is lopsided, lets you compare headlines across the political spectrum, and helps you identify what's being emphasized or ignored. If you care about getting to the truth by seeing things from all angles, Ground News is essential.
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26:16Francis Foster:has an impact out there. Well, we know that now. We know that now. And those people need to really have a wake up moment right here, right now. But if we're going to talk about people monetizing this tragedy, I mean, what we've seen in the last few days on the right, I think I'm probably as horrified by that as I am by the celebrations of Charlie Kirk's assassination. I mean, there are people who are literally going, oh, let me tell you how Israel killed them. We know this guy who killed them from the text messages, from the messages on the ammunition, which were all anti-fascist, quote unquote, all of this.
26:56Francis Foster:This was like a trans ally guy who was in a relationship with a trans person who thought Charlie Kirk was too hateful. Clearly a leftist, a crazy leftist guy. There's now people going, well, I've got text messages that insinuate that Charlie Kirk was under pressure to support Israel, tune into my live stream. I'm just going, you have lost your humanity if you ever had it.
27:19Konstantin Kisin:And that again just shows you just, and the one thing, the thing that I find that I struggle to understand is I go, how much of this is just sheer naked greed in all senses of the word? And how much of this is ideological? How much of this is Israel is behind everything bad that's happening in the world, whether it's Epstein or the assassination of Charlie Kirk? And how much of this is just you going...
27:50Francis Foster:It's hard to know. It's hard to know. But I just think you said it before we started. It's like, I think, the Douglas Murray quote. Yeah. A flare has gone up, and now we know where everybody is. And we saw the people, very few people, but influential people who, before we even knew anything, started to try and make it about Israel or other things. And you're just going, you're not a serious person. No. And that's why I don't even want to name names. I've written stuff about, you know, the woke riot and the candor zones and whatever. I'm not even interested now. It's time to give all these people the Alex Jones treatment, which is just, look, you've got your audience and you say whatever you want and that audience will be big, but no one serious is going to take you seriously anymore because you're just discrediting yourself.
28:41Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, and I think when you see those people, you actually go, if you haven't understood who they actually are, if you've thought, you know, they've said sensible things about BLM or, you know, the riots or whatever it may be, no, the mask is well and truly slipped. And you see the grotesque, the grotesque underneath. And then you have to, and now it is your job as an adult to make the decision. Do you continue to follow? Do you continue to engage? Do you continue to amplify this person? Or do you look and do you think to yourself, actually, no more? And these people, they were Charlie's friends.
29:22Francis Foster:They were Charlie's friends. I don't think they were. Well, they claim they were. He invited them to his events. They spoke at his events. And while his widow and children are grieving, they are profiteering from his death with conspiracy theories that are completely the opposite of the truth. Because we know from all the things that have been, all the evidence points to the fact that this was a trans-related ally, leftist, quote-unquote anti-fascist crazy guy. But these people who claim to be his friends are literally profiting from his death. I actually cannot imagine anything more disgusting.
30:05Francis Foster:Imagine this, God forbid, happened to one of us and our so-called friends were using this to get clicks on their YouTube channels while your family were grieving. It's as disgusting as the people on the left who celebrated his death. It's just as disgusting. And there's no other way to say it. And I think they've all, in my eyes, I will never, ever take any of them seriously in anything they say ever again, because they've just shown who they are.
30:37Konstantin Kisin:Absolutely. And what they've shown very clearly is that the most important thing for you is engagement, its views and its money. And if that's the most important thing for you, that's your incentive structure, then why are you going to be truthful? Why are you going to behave with decency, honesty and integrity? if the most important thing for you is those things. If that's the top of that, if that is the top, if that's the most important thing, then naturally all your behaviors are going to lead to that thing.
31:08Francis Foster:And it's weird because, you know, with my Russian background, I'm about as cynical as you can get. But I was not cynical enough to imagine this kind of reaction. I imagined people celebrate. I knew people would celebrate because people celebrated when Thatcher died. And look, at some level I can relate. I'm not saying this is how I will think, but, you know, for our generation in this country, Tony Blair was evil. Like what he did in Iraq was evil, objectively. And we all knew it at the time. We all opposed the war, et cetera.
31:36Konstantin Kisin:Of course, of course.
31:39Francis Foster:I'm not saying I will celebrate when he dies because I will not. But I can see how somebody might. Yeah. Right. So at least I sort of, it's horrific and as we've talked about, completely unacceptable, but I can sort of see how you might get there. You might get there. But with this, I was not cynical to imagine. Like what I did imagine, and it is happening, you know, we had the U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi, for example, start talking about, you know, well, there's free speech and there's hate speech and we're going to crack down on hate speech, right? Now, this is, and this is the interesting thing because this is another example of why this is not a both sides issue.
32:17Francis Foster:Because the moment she said that, literally everybody on the right went, no. and they started quoting Charlie Koch's own quotes saying there's no such thing as hate speech in America the first amendment doesn't curtail people's right to say things like that and they're right and the pushback was instant because on the right all of these ideas have been debated and people know where they stand on this, on the left there's a whole different narrative about it that's what I expected that and I expected what we're now seeing which is look We should talk about this because this is a live conversation as well.
32:53Francis Foster:As we sit here this morning, Jimmy Kimmel has just been put on leave, is it?
32:59Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. Taken off indefinitely. Indefinitely.
33:02Francis Foster:Right. Because he said the shooter was a MAGA guy. Yeah. In one of his monologues. We'll talk about that. And also, we've seen a lot of people be sacked from their jobs or fired from their jobs for celebrating Charlie's death and things like that. And it's quite an interesting one to adjudicate from our perspective. So what do you make of these two strands?
33:27Konstantin Kisin:So with Jimmy, and I'm going to put my cards on the table, I'm always pro-comedian. I'm always pro-comedian. I will always stand up for comedians because I believe that over the past few years, we swung so far over the other way where people were getting cancelled that I actually, unless somebody does something particularly heinous, I will always be pro-comedy and I will always be comedian. I think Jimmy obviously had information. It was wrong. He was given the wrong information or he saw information that was wrong. What happened? He made a mistake. Am I comfortable with what's happened? No, I'm not, if I'm being honest.
34:08Francis Foster:I'm not saying I'm not going to give my opinion either way just yet, but I think we look, I'm a former comedian. You're a current comedian, and I totally get that instinct. but I also don't think this comedian defense is getting overused. There's quite a lot of people who say things that they actually mean, who are serious political commentators, or at least taking a serious political commentators, who use the defense of being comedians the moment they're caught lying. Yes. Right. Bassem Yusuf, a former guest of ours, before there was any evidence came mouth at all. He said on Twitter that Charlie Kirk was killed by Mossad, right?
34:48Francis Foster:And when he was challenged on this by Piers Morgan, he said, well, I just, you know, I'm a clown. I'm a comedian. I was joking. Yes. But he wasn't joking. Yeah. He wasn't joking. Yeah. And not, he's not a clown. All you've seen him do for the last year is give his serious opinion about this. Yes. And when you blur that line, you don't have that excuse anymore. Yeah. And with Jimmy Kimmel, we can have a conversation about him being taken off air but i also think it's unfair to pretend that he is a comedian in the same well that i think it's unfair to pretend and i don't think bill would do this that bill ma is a comedian yeah bill ma has hosts a political show that has elements of comedy yes but you but by biden i know people on the left who've said to me repeatedly i just get all my news from the daily show i just get all my news from jimmy kimmel right because the point of those shows is to talk about politics and culture with a punchline at the end but you also have a responsibility to communicate the truth and you say he was given wrong information i am sorry man this has been the biggest story on the news for the last week yeah the police have released plenty of information about the motivations of the shooter.
36:06Francis Foster:They've released his text messages. They've released the information that was on the ammunition. How are you getting this wrong like that?
36:14Konstantin Kisin:Okay, so that's a fair point. But I see certain things as being different. I think what Bassam does is Bassam presents, I think Bassam presents himself, I don't think, Bassam presents himself as a serious political commentator, which is fundamentally disingenuous that he then retreats to that position. He also spread a conspiracy theory, knowingly, and he admitted that in the clip, which is reprehensible and utterly disgusting. It's anti-Semitic, vile. So there is no excuse, and I do not defend that to him, and I utterly condemn him. With Bill Maher, that is a serious political show. I agree with your point.
36:52Francis Foster:It's also got jokes, though, just like Jimmy Kimmel.
36:54Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. I see Jimmy Kimmel as being more kind of... I haven't seen the Jimmy Kimmel show in a long
36:59Francis Foster:time but i see it as being this is one of the reasons that also they're not that bothered about canceling because the ratings apparently going through the floor exactly i always saw jimmy
37:07Konstantin Kisin:kimmel as being much more of a kind of fluffy light entertainment show than a political show
37:12Francis Foster:come on man that's the way i saw it fine yeah but but he is presenting information to the public about which he then does jokes when you insinuate yeah that this person who killed charlie kirk was a MAGA guy. Yeah. You are spreading a conspiracy theory. This is the thing, again, right? There are a lot of batshit crazy conspiracy theories on the right. And they're loved and appreciated by many people with large audiences on the right. And I dislike that. And I've always said that I dislike that. And a lot of, you know, all the, start with Pete again, work your way down, right? But the left has got away for a very long time with spreading conspiracy theories of the worst kind.
37:56Francis Foster:while claiming that the right is conspiratorial. No, no, no. If you go on TV a week after Charlie Kirk is killed by a left-wing radical and you say he was a MAGA guy, imagine it was the other way around. Imagine a major left-wing figure had just been politically assassinated by someone from the right and Greg Gutfeld went on his comedy show on Fox and said, well, this guy was obviously a leftist. What would happen? Yeah. There would be a firestorm of people calling for him to be sacked, to be canceled, to be fired, all of it for spreading misinformation. So Jimmy Kimmel, I think, is exactly in that category.
38:37Francis Foster:Now, do I want to see him canceled, permanently, never allowed to work again? No. But I also think if your job is to communicate information to the public, you have a responsibility to be accurate about it. And that is not an acceptable breach of that duty, in my opinion.
38:54Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. Look, I agree with that. My instinct is always when it comes to comedy. But it wasn't comedy, though.
39:03Francis Foster:It's not comedy. It's satire. It's not satire. It's him expressing his opinion. He basically told people that this guy was killed by a MAGA guy. Charlie Kirk was killed by a MAGA guy. That's not satire. Satire is making a joke. But it then led to a joke. But look, I agree. The fact that he said that... If I say Francis Foster is a pedophile and then make a joke about how he's the best pedophile. You realize everybody's going to fucking clip that. Right? Yeah, yeah. Which bit is the joke? Yeah. And which bit is the serious thing? Yeah. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I do see what you mean.
39:39Francis Foster:If I said Francis Foster is a pedophile, but he couldn't even do that properly. Yeah. Right? The joke is he couldn't even do that properly. Yeah. But the setup is the truth that I'm attempting to claim is the truth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what Jimmy did. Yeah. And when you have a huge audience to whom you're communicating about politics and culture, I don't think you can get away with saying it's just a bit of comedy. Yeah. I don't think that's legitimate.
40:02Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. Look, I agree. I just, I think deep down my concerns are that when we, look, Batum, like I said, but with Jimmy, I just worry that it's going to degenerate in just interpellation. political point scoring. And it's like, oh, we're going to cancel this guy. Now we're going to go after this guy and cancel him. And I'm like, look, what you said was wrong. It was stupid. He should apologize.
40:31Francis Foster:And issue a correction.
40:33Konstantin Kisin:And issue a correction. But do I want to be in a place where we start going tip for tack cancellations? I don't want to be, I don't want to live in that world.
40:40Francis Foster:That I agree with. And what I'd also say is from what I'm hearing, the FCC were involved in putting pressure on his employers, which that to me is troubling, right? Because you don't want the government's an arm of the government influencing what broadcasters are allowed to broadcast so i i don't think um i'm comfortable with that aspect of it but at the same time i think it's a it's a grotesque negligence on his part absolutely and if his own network felt that he'd made a mistake that deserved some kind of reprimand i i wouldn't have a problem with it yeah you know um and also in terms of set jimmy aside because i think we've kind of said what we think about it there's been a lot of this you know here's this person who said this in celebration let's get him fired from this job that job and whatever and again that's quite a complicated one because i think we have to be honest that there's a difference right if someone is flipping burgers in a mcdonald's i don't i don't see how whatever even however their views are yeah how evil their views are i don't think they should be canceled and be fired from their job yeah doing that But at the same time, if you are in a position where you're dealing with the public or you're dealing with children, you're an educator.
41:55I don't think we can pretend that that has no impact.
42:01Francis Foster:I don't think if you're teaching children. I mean, there was a guy in Canada, his story was in the New York Post, who showed his 10 and 11 year olds in class the video of the assassination repeatedly and then explained to them why it was justified. allegedly so if you're doing that i'm sorry you getting fired is not cancel culture out the door you go yeah and and and look extended beyond that if say you are uh working in a hospital as a doctor or a nurse in some way you're dealing with patients we've seen that you know with people
42:35Konstantin Kisin:supporting hamas and uh the the slaughter of october 7th right so if you're in that position
42:41Francis Foster:and I am a religious conservative, I'm not a religious conservative, but I am an American religious conservative. I'm going into hospital. Do you think I would feel comfortable being treated for my medical condition by somebody who thinks it's okay to murder people like me? Right. So again, if you are in that sort of position, I don't know that you could argue that people who celebrate violence against people like the people they serve can remain in that position credibly. But I also think, you know, there are oppositions when that isn't the case where it's probably a different thing. Yeah.
43:17Konstantin Kisin:And this is, again, this is the issue where we actually have to look at it. And we have to be nuanced about this. And we actually have to have a discussion, a conversation and go, what is acceptable? What is not acceptable? When can you say it? When can't you say it? Because a corporation would go, everybody who works for McDonald's is a representative of McDonald's They are an ambassador of McDonald's Whether you are in the work Are you flipping burgers Yeah Are you
43:47Francis Foster:You could because you know Look we have an office here If the cleaner who cleans our office once a week Went out and I don't know what his opinions are They're pretty bad mate I've spoken to him You know what I'm saying Are they representing the values of trigonometry Are they No they're not objectively not I don't even know his name yeah but yeah
44:11Konstantin Kisin:but that's that is what could be argued
44:14Francis Foster:yeah but that's just not true though yeah a cleaner does not represent the values of the company
44:20Konstantin Kisin:okay and an accountant they don't
44:22Francis Foster:how do they represent I don't know my accountant's values I think his values are money personally
44:26Konstantin Kisin:but if you're KPMG and one of your senior accountants for instance starts tweeting
44:32Francis Foster:senior accounts
44:33Konstantin Kisin:is a different thing okay or just a regular accountant and they celebrate October 7th. Would KPMG not be entitled to fire that person?
44:43Francis Foster:I think they, look, personally, what I'm trying to say is I think there's a line somewhere and that line for me is about, are you dealing with people that may feel that you actually want them dead based on your commentary, right? That's what I'm talking about. so if i'm going into a hospital and someone is there celebrating the murder of people like me that i don't think is a tenable position i think what we're saying is that it's when it prejudices your work right when it affects the way you do your job or at least other people will credibly think that it does so if you're a cleaner in a hospital have any opinion you want evil as it
45:25Konstantin Kisin:might be yeah but when for instance that you're dealing for instance if i was kpmg and someone tweeted about i don't know hamas and said i'm pro-hamas i'm like well can i really trust you to handle this jewish customers accounts can i really trust you if you celebrate the slaughter of jews and israelis and you think that's a good thing can i trust you to handle mr lowenstein's accounts i personally don't think i can and that's not an unfair position to be in right so
45:57Francis Foster:your point is it affects your work yeah in a material way or other people will feel that it does yeah uh so that it's so it's slightly more complicated than people are trying to make it out to be because a lot of people on the right are like all these people deserve to be cancelled and people on the left are look at the right practice and cancel culture i think it's as we've discussed somewhat more nuanced yeah and complicated you know but these things always are
46:21Konstantin Kisin:But when you go on social media, it's much easier to go, these people are wrong, these people are, you know what I mean?
46:26Francis Foster:Yeah.
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47:16Konstantin Kisin:If you like your commentary honest sharp and entirely uncancellable find brad versus everyone on apple podcast spotify or wherever you listen well the other thing that that has happened in in since
47:31Francis Foster:we last spoke is uh the united kingdom protest the video that we did on our channel has done very well i think it's approaching 700 000 views at this point uh you and i both went along yeah Yeah. That is another thing that, you know, there's been a lot of rhetoric about. And look, left-wing politicians, starting from Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London down, have had absolutely no problem talking about this as a far-right gathering. And again, there's some nuance to that, which I'm sure we can talk about. Obviously, some of my impressions, not all of my impressions, there's quite a lot to add to what people saw in the video, but there in the video, what were your impressions of it?
48:09Konstantin Kisin:So my impressions were this. Overall, I find it very interesting because I've never been to a political rally. To me, and you're going to say, to me, political rallies are largely middle class things. They're largely middle class things because middle class people have the time and the energy to be on social media, get worked up, get angry, the free time to then go down to Parliament Square and protest, wave their little flag, do whatever they want. It's a middle class activity. Revolutions were always started and led by the middle class. right the thing that i found very interesting is that when i went to this particular demonstration it was very working class it was people that i that i would know from like south london growing up and being you know go down the pub or go watch the football i remember watching certain there was a lot of chanting it was a really almost odd mixture of politics and football mixed together Starmer is a wanker being a prominent feature.
49:09Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, which people have chanted at the football week after week.
49:12Francis Foster:Yeah, yeah.
49:29Konstantin Kisin:So that's a football chant, and there was a very football element to it. So I found that very interesting. The vast majority of people that I spoke to that I went out and I was chatting with, ordinary, decent people. I would argue that the reason they were there is they felt that something is wrong in their country. And they felt for a long time they have been told to be ashamed of their history, their background, their race, their country. And to them, it was a demonstration of pride and a celebration of the country. There was a fringe element that I saw, which were drunken, aggressive, occasionally violent.
50:12Konstantin Kisin:And I saw it happen. I think it was 25 or 26 police officers were hurt.
50:16Francis Foster:Yeah. So just to clarify, what we know now is 25 arrests were made. Yeah. The majority of those arrests were made among the counter protesters. Yeah. But there was some violence, which people can see in the video that I did, between the police and the pro-Tommy protesters. This was on a side street where people couldn't get to the main protest. And I think they were frustrated and angry about that. But they were violent towards the police, which of course is never acceptable. But for a protest of several hundred thousand people, the level of violence was actually surprisingly low for me. Because the one thing, and people can see, someone actually said, you keep talking about, you worry about this being violent.
50:59Francis Foster:Yeah, it's because we saw a lot of people who had clearly, we got there for what, 10, 10, 45, 11? By that time, there were people that clearly had about five pints in them at least. There were a lot of people who had been drinking. and that's always a worry when when people are rowdy of course and the government didn't i don't
51:18Konstantin Kisin:know whether it was government the train companies there were there were very few trains going into london on that day so what happened is that people would get the coaches down from places like middlesbrough or sunderland northeast northwest and they would get the coaches some of them early as early as four or five o 'clock in the morning to come down and i was speaking to some people who were on the coaches who said that it was reminiscent of going on an away day to a football match and let's be honest about this white working class culture especially football culture revolves around booze you go out you have a few beers you get pissed up you're with your mates you have a sing song you do whatever else that is how it is by the way why did you say why because i don't
52:00Francis Foster:think it's why i mean there was quite a lot of non-white people there i know there's a lot of non-white people at the football who are also drinking.
52:06Konstantin Kisin:I agree. But I'm talking about people that I grew up with. I'm talking about my dad. My dad's not a football fan. He's a real man. He likes rugby league. But when we go out with my family, they start drinking.
52:19Francis Foster:All I'm saying is I think football culture is not a race thing.
52:22Konstantin Kisin:No, it's not. But I'm talking about working class culture, white working class culture.
52:27Francis Foster:Why is it white? Sorry if I'm being pedantic. Wouldn't black people also go out and have a few pints?
52:33Konstantin Kisin:In my experience, when we go out...
52:37Francis Foster:You're saying you don't have any black friends.
52:38Konstantin Kisin:No, I don't have any black friends. But I'm talking about going for pints. It's a very kind of... Which is where I come from. That is the culture. It revolves around pints and booze and whatever else. Yeah, yeah. And I don't see it as much in other cultures as I do with my own culture.
52:56Francis Foster:Fair enough.
52:56Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. And again, there's no judgment on that part. It's just how it is. It's how we're brought up.
53:02Francis Foster:it's how we always so there was a lot of drinking from an early there was a lot of drinking from an
53:06Konstantin Kisin:early and most people were friendly rambunctious they were just there to have a laugh there was banter there was like and we saw it people were very friendly they approached to us and there was a small minority and who were you know there was a very small minority who were there and it seemed
53:23Francis Foster:like it was there was an edge to them yeah there was an edge to them but also among those people so in our video you can see there are people who've climbed up onto the scaffolding overlooking the main stage yeah and they were boozy they added a bunch of cans up there smoking whatever and then when they saw me yeah they started shouting and waving constantly you know so just because they were rowdy like i'm a first generation immigrant yeah like if they were like evil far-right racist yeah i don't think they'd be celebrating my being there or wanting to get my attention or whatever. And that was actually walking through the crowd.
54:01Francis Foster:You saw it. It was quite difficult for us to make forward progress because just of the pure number of people who wanted to say hello, take a selfie, shake our hands, et cetera. Now, I don't think we are seen, particularly on the fringes of the right, as particularly friendly to them because we're not. Right. So I think that tells you what the general tenor of the event was. We also saw Avi Yemeni, who's a friend of Tommy's, who's a Jewish Australian YouTuber. He had a confrontation with a couple of people who were actually there, who were real Nazis, but they were there because Tommy Robinson is pro-Israel and they wanted to express their disagreement with that.
54:38Francis Foster:And we did see a handful of those people, but I don't think they were there to support the protests. I think they were there to infiltrate it and subvert it if they could. So that definitely happened as well. Obviously, there's been a lot of talk about whether it was far right or not. Now, it's sort of, I mean, I think, first of all, you have to always have your definitions right in these situations. For me, far right is openly racist, neo-Nazi associated party like the British National Party, which we had, right? Some time ago, the BNP under people like Nick Griffin, right? That's what I would mean by the far right.
55:12Francis Foster:Would you accept that definition or do you have a different one?
55:14Konstantin Kisin:No, I accept that definition pretty much.
55:16Francis Foster:So by that definition, I really didn't see anything that fit that definition in the crowd.
55:23Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.
55:24Francis Foster:Other than those people who were there to subvert it, nor on stage either. What you did see on stage, I would argue, is a number of people who are certainly far more fringe and extreme than the overwhelming majority of the audience. That is something that I think is undeniable, actually. and that is something that and look I don't I wouldn't put Tommy in that category because I don't think his views I think he as we discussed when we had him on the show I think he gets a lot of flack because of some of the ways that he's behaved but in terms of his views I have I haven't heard him say anything that makes me think he's very fringe but some of the other people there particularly from Europe yep absolutely were fringe and so I almost think the people on stage were on balance more extreme than the people in the crowd.
56:13Konstantin Kisin:Oh, I completely agree. I mean, one particular speaker, Valentina Gomez, some of her language was unacceptable.
56:21Francis Foster:I couldn't, because I was backstage, I couldn't really hear anything that was said. What did she say?
56:25Konstantin Kisin:So she said the Muslims are going to, if they get into power, they're going to rape your daughters and they're going to behead your sons. She says, we need to send them back to send these Muslims and these rugs back to their Sharia nations. That's extreme language. I don't think that's acceptable. I don't think. And I think whoever booked her or whoever endorsed her needs to actually think to them, need to actually take a long, hard look at themselves. Because you're in a position of responsibility when you put on a rally like this. It's as simple as that. And to me, and I'm going to be honest, I'm probably going to get flack for this.
57:02Konstantin Kisin:I don't care. You can't have that. You simply cannot have a woman like that on stage saying those things. It is dangerous and it's inflammatory.
57:11Francis Foster:And there's also been a lot of talk about what Elon said. Again, I couldn't hear it because I was backstage. There's some ambiguity in the way that he phrased it. I don't think the way he phrased it was particularly helpful. By, you know, fight, he meant like, you know, organized rally, political movement, et cetera. He said violence is coming to you. Well, I don't think, I mean, objectively, that is what's happened in the last week. So I don't think he's wrong about that. But what I think the issue was, he then said, you've got to fight or you die or whatever. And I think, again, it depends on what exactly he meant.
57:44Francis Foster:If he meant fight as an organized rally, organized political movements, that's totally legitimate. If he's encouraging people to become violent, that's totally unacceptable. And he'd obviously have to clarify what he meant. We can blame Tommy for booking the wrong people and whatever, and I think there's legitimate conversations to be had about that. The reason I bring up the fact that people in the crowd were far more moderate than the speakers on stage is, to me, what that signals is a failure of leadership from the mainstream politicians. Because you've got moderate, reasonable, normal people who are being spoken to by people who are far more extreme than them.
58:23Francis Foster:And that's because the people who should be speaking to these normal, moderate, reasonable people are not speaking to them, are not addressing their concern, are smearing them all as far right and completely ignoring what they're saying. And that sense of frustration, that sense of the elites are not listening to us is what's driving those protests. That's just the reality of what it is. And my worry is if the mainstream do not address the concerns of ordinary people, those ordinary people will be pushed in these unhealthy, extreme directions.
58:55Konstantin Kisin:And that is the real issue going on here And I would say this is the fault predominantly of the Labour Party Those people in there, the people I spoke to Were people, the vast majority Were the people the Labour Party should be representing The reason that those people felt compelled to go out Whether they could articulate it or not Some of them could, some of them couldn't But I think deep down if you scratch the surface Is because they feel betrayed And you know what? They have every right to feel betrayed. They have every right to feel betrayed by the elites, the political parties, the way the grooming gangs was covered up, the way that anyone who talked about them was smeared as racist, the way that any concerns, and let's talk about any concerns white working class people have, was immediately shunted to one side.
59:45Konstantin Kisin:And if they talked about diversity, if they talked about concepts like white privilege, anything like that, they were immediately shunned. They were told they were stupid, far-right racist. You can only do that trick so many times before what you get is a backlash. And this is what the elites never understand. My dad's from Wigan. When Orwell wanted to write about deprivation, misery in this country, he went to Wigan. He went to Wigan. That's where he went. When my dad grew up, he said I had two choices. If I didn't go to university, I'd work down the pit or I'd work in St. Helens glass, the glass factory.
1:00:23Konstantin Kisin:And both were pretty tough, miserable existences.
1:00:25Francis Foster:And I'm guessing, by the way, neither of those two exist anymore.
1:00:28Konstantin Kisin:No, neither of them exist.
1:00:29Francis Foster:So not only would you work there, you'd probably lose your job pretty soon too.
1:00:32Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, you'd lose your job. So you're angry and you're frustrated, right? And the people that I knew in Wigan, they were honest, solid, good people who just wanted to go to work, provide for their families, come home, raise a family. That's all they wanted. They weren't far right. They weren't racist. as a vast majority of this country are. They were tolerant, good people, not extremists. But you have pushed people to this point where they feel that they have no other option but to attend a Tommy Robinson rally. And whatever you think about, Tommy, I think we can all agree that is a very worrying place to be.
1:01:10Konstantin Kisin:And the Zahra Sultanas of this world and the Diane Abbott and our beloved mayor, Sadiq Khan, that's sarcasm for the Americans, can't actually understand that smearing them as far right, smearing them as racist, do not understand where this is leading. Because this is leading somewhere that is very dark and it's very dangerous. And you haven't learned the lessons. And a week after Charlie Cook, you're continuing to use the same rhetoric, the same language, the same words. It's despicable. And I'm angry. And I'm angry because it's dangerous. And they haven't learned. they haven't learned and that's what that is what i got from it that is really what i got from it and i'm worried about my country genuinely because this is a powder keg and one other thing we ought
1:02:01Francis Foster:to add as well is britain is an extremely anti-extremist place you really have to work very very hard to get hundreds of thousands of people on the street protesting about something like this in this way. It's very, very hard. You're right. You know, you can get your middle class vegans to get a Palestine flag and go for a nice walk and a little sing along. But to get working class people out in the streets in the hundreds of thousands like this, you've got to really, really go for it. And in addition to all the cultural issues you've talked about, and let's be honest, I mean, our interview with Alistair Heath is one of the best we've done.
1:02:40And one of the things people need to understand is part of the reason all of this is happening is that our GDP per capita, which is a measure of how wealthy we actually are, is lower today than it was in 2008.
1:02:53Francis Foster:Our taxes are higher, which means people have less money than they did back then. And this is something that I heard. This was said in 2014, so it's probably much worse now. But the reason Europe is struggling as it is, and the reason all these movements are happening everywhere in Europe is, Europe has 12 % of the global population, 25 % of the GDP, and 50 % of the welfare spending. And the economy is not growing. We're f***ing economically. And until we let go of our obsessions with net zero, with having millions of people on unemployment register simply because they're a little bit anxious or a little bit depressed or whatever, this will carry on because people are poorer.
1:03:39Francis Foster:People are frustrated with mass immigration, especially illegal immigration, which, you know, like one guy said in Arant, a very reasonable guy. He said, I'm a single father. I work hard and I see people being put up in hotels. Like, you know, you can't have that. You could paper over these cracks if the economy was growing rapidly and everyone felt life was great. And then the guy, who cares about, you know, I've got more money, I'm doing right. That's not where we are. And so the government need to, I mean, this government is not going to do it, but whoever is the next government have to get the economy growing as well as addressing all these cultural issues.
1:04:19Francis Foster:because otherwise the extremes are inevitably going to rise. I just don't think there's any other way around it.
1:04:24Konstantin Kisin:No. You know what I find very interesting? I don't think people are talking about enough. Every government, right, left, or centre, runs out of steam. It runs out of steam. It runs out of ideas. It runs out of momentum, figure, whatever you want to call it. This thought of run out of steam after it's barely been a year.
1:04:42Francis Foster:Yeah, but I'm not surprised because this was all... I predicted this, if you remember, the last election. I said they're going to realize that the problem wasn't the evil Tories hated the poor. The problem is the country's got giant structural problems that you can't fix without drastic action, which they won't be able to take. Yeah. So they've run out of steam in a year, as expected. Yeah. And I mean, I guess the question is, do you think the next election will happen earlier than planned? It's hard to see it. I can't think another three years of this is going to last.
1:05:15Konstantin Kisin:Something needs to happen. There needs to be some, I don't know. I don't know. I really.
1:05:19Francis Foster:That's a very worrying phrase usually, mate.
1:05:22Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, because it is, but we're in a very worrying situation.
1:05:27Francis Foster:Look, from a political perspective, I mean, look, as we talked about with Alistair Heath, a fiscal crisis is coming. And if you were Labour, it's almost like you go, you know what, why don't we just have an election, lose and let someone else eat that financial crisis? Because it is coming. and if Labour are seen to be the ones that oversaw it, they're going to be dead. Whereas if they hand over to reform and reform face that fiscal crisis, they're going to get the list trust treatment. Because a lot of list trust's policies were entirely correct. I mean, people talk about how she spooked the bond markets and to some extent she did, but yields are higher now than they were under list trust.
1:06:10Francis Foster:So my point is a lot of the political blame will go to whoever is in charge when the inevitable happens. From Labour's perspective, maybe you just call an election now and let someone else eat it. After a year? Barely a year? They probably won't do it because they're not that smart, but that would be the smart play. Yeah.
1:06:28Konstantin Kisin:How do you frame it? Like, we've had a year, we've shat the bed, let's have an election?
1:06:34Francis Foster:I think we're going to have another election either way.
1:06:37Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.
1:06:37Francis Foster:So we're delaying the inevitable. Yeah. Yeah. And look, if you get the fiscal crisis while Labour's still in charge, that would be very good for reform. If you get the fiscal crisis after, then that would be very bad for whoever's in charge because people will just blame whoever's in charge. Of course. You know. Anyway, it's been a really, really difficult week for a lot of people. I'm glad we gave it some time because we were able to have a conversation with a bit of perspective. And I'm sure we'll see everybody very soon again. For another uplifting episode. Let's start at the beginning. What is England?
1:07:12Konstantin Kisin:England emerges in the aftermath of the Roman province of Britannia. By 950, England is recognisable today. And that's when we get the greatest hero of English medieval history. It's called William the Marshal. And then we see the House of Lords and the House of Commons developing. Extraordinary thing about the Plantagenet family. You get a very uneven performance by its kings. Richard the Lionheart, John Softsword. You know, Edward I, Edward II. Absolute useless Muppet. We get Wars of the Roses, you get a civil war in England. Families fighting families. The printing press has been discovered.
1:07:49Konstantin Kisin:The rest of the world has been discovered. From the Tudors onwards, then we're starting to feel this kind of acceleration. In the 17th century, we've got civil war. No one would have said, Britain, that one, those guys there, they're about to run the world. And then we get the monumental global clashes of the 20th century. Thank you.
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Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians.
00:00 - Introduction
01:20 - The Assassination Of Charlie Kirk
17:05 - The Effect Of Social Media
24:37 - The Horrific Commentary Coming From The Right
31:37 - Jimmy Kimmel And The Cancellations
45:38 - Tommy Robinson's Unite The Kingdom Rally
01:00:09 - Britain Is A Very Anti-Extremist Country
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