In short
Alex Browder discusses how Russia and other hostile actors use cryptocurrency and, specifically, Russia’s state-linked stablecoin A785 to evade Western sanctions and fund cybercrime and war. He also covers broader crypto money-laundering pathways (dark markets, ransomware, scam compounds), UK/US enforcement gaps, and user safety against scams.
Guest backgrounds
Alex Browder is described as the youngest person ever sanctioned by Russia. He says he created the largest open-source database of cryptocurrency money laundering and authored a 100-page Henry Jackson Society report on how laundering works and how to stop it. His motivation is tied to his father Bill Browder’s anti-corruption work in Russia and the arrest, torture, and death of his father’s lawyer Sergei Magnitsky.
Key claims
A785 (launched Jan 2025) is a major sanctions-evasion tool; it processed over $100B cumulative volume in 2025. Kyrgyzstan-based enablers and sanctioned entities help it function; Russia retaliated by sanctioning Browder. Crypto scams are widespread (FCA regulation delayed to late 2027). Proposed fixes include whistleblower rewards and a UK crypto asset recovery office.
Notable examples
North Korea allegedly stole $1.5B from a crypto exchange and cashed out within 48 hours; Hydra processed 90% of darknet marketplace funds (2022); Jaguar ransomware breach; Sencora paid $75M; a UK NCA officer allegedly stole 50 of 100 seized Bitcoin; a Chinese Ponzi scheme mastermind fled with $6.6B in Bitcoin; “Lazarus Group” ransomware/cyber theft; “wrench attacks” and kidnapping for wallet keys.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VODiscovering the Crypto Laundering Scheme
1:39 to 2:54
Alex shares his background and motivation for exposing crypto money laundering.
“You are the youngest person ever to have been sanctioned by Russia for showing and revealing how they, alongside other countries, actually use crypto to launder money and avoid sanctions, Western sanctions.”
The Russian Stablecoin and Its Impact
2:54 to 4:39
Discussion on the launch of Russia's stablecoin and its role in sanctions evasion.
“was arrested, who was helping him expose this corruption, was arrested, tortured in prison for 355 days and killed in November 2009.”
Corruption and Enablers in Kyrgyzstan
4:39 to 7:50
Alex details the corruption scheme in Kyrgyzstan supporting Russian crypto laundering.
“And actually, we interviewed your dad, Bill Browder, recently.”
Responses and Consequences
7:50 to 9:23
Analysis of the international response, sanctions, and personal consequences for Alex.
“mastermind behind this scheme, this convicted Moldovan fraudster, gifted the Kyrgyz president a luxury jet.”
The Asymmetry of Information in Crypto
9:23 to 11:29
Examining the gap in knowledge about cryptocurrency among politicians and the public.
“And this is one of their key enabling tools.”
Understanding Cryptocurrency Basics
11:29 to 14:00
Alex explains what cryptocurrency is and its decentralized nature.
“I think it's good a young person can be pushing this forward.”
Understanding Cryptocurrency and Its Risks
14:00 to 18:06
Learn about the nature of cryptocurrency and its appeal, alongside the risks it poses to society.
“Please, young man, tell the other ones what crypto is.”
Darknet Marketplaces and Ransomware
18:06 to 20:50
Explore how cryptocurrency facilitates illegal activities through darknet markets and ransomware attacks.
“So, for example, in last year, you guys may have seen this, the big car company called Jaguar, it faced a massive breach and the whole system had to shut down.”
The Regulatory Challenges of Cryptocurrency
20:50 to 24:34
Discuss the lack of regulation in cryptocurrency and its implications for fraud and crime.
“I mean, the challenge is obviously one of the great attractions of crypto is that nobody regulates it.”
Proposed Solutions to Combat Cryptocurrency Crime
24:34 to 28:00
Examine potential regulatory measures and solutions to tackle cryptocurrency-related crime effectively.
“if they're not able to, they need to be able to protect all these people who are doing this.”
Show all 24 chapters
Addressing Cryptocurrency Crime in the UK
28:00 to 32:00
Learn about the need for a cryptocurrency asset recovery office in the UK and the challenges faced by victims.
“And so I'm trying to push for that here within the U.K.”
Addressing Cryptocurrency Crime in the UK
32:04 to 33:24
Learn about the need for a cryptocurrency asset recovery office in the UK and the challenges faced by victims.
“Ridge first sponsored this show nearly six years ago.”
Addressing Cryptocurrency Crime in the UK
33:31 to 33:56
Learn about the need for a cryptocurrency asset recovery office in the UK and the challenges faced by victims.
“A Lamborghini Huracan Starato, a Hennessy Velociraptor, a Ford Bronco, or$100 ,000 in cash.”
The Chinese Ponzi Scheme and Its Impact
33:56 to 37:20
Explore a case of a massive Ponzi scheme that highlights the importance of regulating off-ramps.
“And it shouldn't actually be that hard to fund because of, you know, there are certain government programs and agencies that require you to put lots of money in and you don't get any money back.”
Protecting Yourself from Cryptocurrency Scams
37:20 to 39:28
Gain insights on how to avoid falling victim to cryptocurrency scams and the tactics used by scammers.
“Well, it sounds like that's the direction in which we're going to have to move in terms of enforcing all of this.”
The Evolution of Ponzi Schemes and Their Digital Nature
39:28 to 42:01
Understand the historical context of Ponzi schemes and how cryptocurrency has changed the game for scammers.
“So they knock on your door, they pretend to be a delivery driver and then they kidnap you.”
Digital Crime and Cryptocurrency's Role
42:01 to 45:24
Explore how digital currencies facilitate illicit activities and fund hostile regimes.
“Because you can literally rob a bank and get away with it, and you wouldn't make one-tenth of what this person did.”
The Dark World of Meme Coins
45:25 to 49:00
Learn about the rise and risks of meme coins in the cryptocurrency market.
“Because to me, that's just a glorified scam.”
The Dark World of Meme Coins
49:31 to 50:53
Learn about the rise and risks of meme coins in the cryptocurrency market.
“but ended up with a strain that took far longer to recover from than it ever used to.”
The Dark World of Meme Coins
50:58 to 51:17
Learn about the rise and risks of meme coins in the cryptocurrency market.
“That's q-u-a-l-i-a life.com slash trig for an extra 15 % off your purchase.”
Economic Influences on Cryptocurrency Adoption
51:18 to 56:00
Discuss how economic pressures drive young people towards cryptocurrency and the darker paths associated with it.
“And because it's mainly men who do this, it's mainly young men.”
The Impact of Cryptocurrency on Youth Ambition
56:00 to 56:28
Exploring how cryptocurrency can encourage young people's ambitions and innovation.
“In North Korea, not used by its citizens, used by the government.”
Barriers to Youth Engagement and Innovation
56:28 to 57:53
Discussion on outdated regulations hindering young people's opportunities and aspirations.
“I hope you carry on the work that you're doing.”
Closing Thoughts and Future Conversations
57:53 to 58:47
Reflecting on the interview and encouraging ongoing dialogue with the audience.
“And this is one of the big things I'm focusing on called Project Ambition.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Who says Halloween only lasts one day? With Wayfair, one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home. From larger-than-life yard decor and moody lighting, to festive accents for every room in the house, Wayfair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place. Because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night, they're made all season long. Shop Halloween decor now at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. I'm the first high schooler ever sanctioned by Russia. I created the largest open source database of cryptocurrency money laundering, which exposes how state-sanctioned actors, criminals, drug dealers, and everyone else is using cryptocurrency to launder their funds.
0:43In January 2025, the Russians launched their own stablecoin, and it's become one of their main tools for sanctions evasion. Most of the drone producers who are trying to trade with China and North Korea and other countries are using it. Drug dealers, oligarchs are using it. And it's become their tool of choice. In 2025 alone, it processed over$100 billion in cumulative volume. Russia responded by sanctioning me. So it's clear the work has touched a nerve.
1:19Francis Foster:The British government wants to force YouTube to downrank independent content like this and replace it with approved messaging from the mainstream media. The only way you can fight back and continue to enjoy our content is to make sure you're subscribed. Like this video and comment below to have your say on what the government is doing. Alex Browder, welcome to Trigonometry. Thanks for having me on. It's great to have you on. You are the youngest person ever to have been sanctioned by Russia for showing and revealing how they, alongside other countries, actually use crypto to launder money and avoid sanctions, Western sanctions.
1:58Francis Foster:Fascinating story, very important story. Before we get into it, just tell us a little bit about the story of how you started to look at this and how you discovered what you discovered and what you then discovered. Yeah, so it's an interesting story. On the surface, I'm like a regular, I've had a regular childhood. I'm an avid football player. I go out with my friends every weekend and I go to school. in north london um but there's always been something hovering over my life which has made me different from most um people my age and so my father was the largest foreign investor in russia he spent most of his career exposing corruption within russia obviously this didn't make him friendly with the kremlin they kicked him out in 2005 and declared him a threat to national security and my father's lawyer, a brave man named Sergei Magnitsky, was arrested, who was helping him expose this corruption, was arrested, tortured in prison for 355 days and killed in November 2009.
3:04He left a wife and two kids and that murder has cast a shadow over my life and Russia's aggression towards my family and indeed towards the wider world has been increasing since then. And so I've always been inspired that I need to do something to help stop this. And so what is a young person good at? I would say technology. And so the thing which really got me into cryptocurrency was in February 2025, the North Koreans managed to steal$1.5 billion from a cryptocurrency exchange in less than five seconds. And that$1.5 billion was fully laundered and cashed out in under 48 hours. And so if North Korea are able to do that and get away with it, what else are they doing?
3:52And what else are other countries doing? So I started digging on the internet. And long story short, I created the largest open source database of cryptocurrency money laundering, which exposes how state-sanctioned actors, criminals, drug dealers, and everyone else is using cryptocurrency to launder their funds. Off of that, I authored a big Henry Jackson report, a 100-page report on how the laundering works and how to stop it. It got published by the Henry Jackson Society in March. And since then, I've been on a large-scale campaign to try and take down bad actors and protect victims here within the UK and other countries from malicious campaigns.
4:34And so, it's really gone lots of traction, and so I'm glad to be sitting down with you guys today.
4:39Francis Foster:Oh, it's great to have you on. And actually, we interviewed your dad, Bill Browder, recently. That episode's done incredibly well. But he didn't say anything to us about you. You've really come here on your own steam because of the publicity you've generated with this. And real serious attention, actually. So what exactly is it that you found when you started doing this research? Okay, so let me start from the beginning.
5:07Russia has created a stablecoin. So a stablecoin, for your audience who may not know, is a cryptocurrency back to some real value like the dollar or gold. Cryptocurrency originally, the main few was something called Bitcoin and Ethereum. But over the recent years, they've had massive price spikes where they can go up 50 % in one day. They can crash 50 % in one day. And bad actors and criminals don't want that. They want to keep their money safe. And so what's been happening over the past few years is that these things called stablecoin have come into play where it's a cryptocurrency back to some real value.
5:49And this doesn't spike in price or volatility. And so it's become the tool of choice for bad actors who want to keep their funds safe. But the issue with most regular stablecoins, like something called USDC, USDT, and other stablecoins, is that they're able to freeze funds if a court in England, US, or elsewhere, or authorities want to freeze the funds, seize the funds, and take it away from the bad actors. And so over many different cases, bad actors have had their funds seized and they're getting scared now. And so in January 2025, the Russians launched their own stablecoin, something called A785.
6:34This stablecoin was set up by a state bank, state Russian bank called PSP, which is sanctioned here in the UK and elsewhere. And also a convicted Moldovan Fordster called Ian Shaw, who's also sanctioned here in the UK. And it's become one of their main tools for sanctions evasion. Most of the drone producers who are trying to trade with China and North Korea and other countries are using it. Drug dealers, oligarchs are using it. And it's become their tool of choice. In 2025 alone, it processed over$100 billion in cumulative volume. And so why is it able to continue to function? Well, the reason it is, is because it has enablers.
7:18And in this case, there are enablers within the state of Kyrgyzstan. So many of the illicit exchanges, which an exchange is something where it allows a criminal to convert cryptocurrency into cash and vice versa, and also swap different currencies around. Many of the exchanges are registered in Kyrgyzstan, including UK-sanctioned Mir, UK-sanctioned Grinx, and even the issuer of the stablecoin, something called Old Vector, which is also UK sanctioned. And even more shockingly, I would say, or egregious, there's been reports that the mastermind behind this scheme, this convicted Moldovan fraudster, gifted the Kyrgyz president a luxury jet.
8:02So it's become a large-scale corruption scheme within that country, and it's enabling Russia to move to the tune of billions of dollars through this stablecoin. So I've spent the past year or so trying to expose this, shed light on this, and have the governments act to try and put pressure on Kyrgyzstan to stop this. Now, how can it do that? There's two different ways. The first is that the financial regulators within Kyrgyzstan can be pressured themselves to Act. And this can happen through personal sanctions and other methods. But Kyrgyzstan receives billions of dollars in trade from the EU and the UK on an annual basis.
8:48And it's become a dual-use enabling system where the EU can import billions of dollars of goods to Kyrgyzstan, and that goes straight to Russia. So I've tried to put pressure on this. And three months ago or so, I organized 26 senior MPs to write to the UK Foreign Secretary urging sanctions on these enablers within the state of Kyrgyzstan. Two months ago, the government responded by sanctioning them. And then full circle, Russia responded by sanctioning me. So it's clear the work has touched a nerve. And this is one of their key enabling tools. So when you say the Russians have sanctioned me, what does that mean?
9:34I'm asking the same question. So I tried Googling this the first, when I found out, what does it mean? But there's no guide to this. What it does mean is I can't travel there, but I wasn't planning on doing that anyway. But I think it's a tactic of intimidation they use to try and make journalists, MPs, politicians or myself fearful for their lives or for their daily activities. But it hasn't had the intended effect for me. Of course, at the beginning, it's a bit nerve wracking to be targeted by a big and powerful government. But it's really become a badge of honour for me Because I'm still in high school I'm the first high schooler ever sanctioned by Russia So it's clear my work has had an effect And they don't want me looking at this No, I can't imagine they do What I find very interesting is When I was reading about your story, Alex I was like, oh, he's so young Isn't that remarkable?
10:38And of course it is remarkable But in another way Well, it's not going to be somebody In their 50s and 60s in government Who stumbles across this because most people don't have a clue about crypto. Even people of my age now, meme coins are all of that world. I agree completely. And this is the issue. When I was speaking to most people, they had no idea. And even more seriously, most of the senior politicians I speak to, they have no idea about this. And so it's a case of asymmetric information. You have the North Koreans, which have their own four departments of technology bros who are working 24-7 to steal billions from the average UK person.
11:17And then you have somebody at the FCDO or the NCA who is trying to, they have 100 cases maybe they need to deal with per month and it just doesn't get the attention required. So something must be done. I think it's good a young person can be pushing this forward. Absolutely, because you look at crypto and it is essentially the Wild West of finance, isn't it? Definitely. that there's so many different scams, fraud systems, hacking, drug laundering. It's truly the Wild West. And the good people who are within the cryptocurrency industry who are trying to progress it, they get harmed by this as well.
11:57So most of the big cryptocurrency projects which have been set up, they face billion-dollar hacks where the North Koreans infiltrate their systems and then steal billions. And then they either shut down or it's very hard for them to progress. So it really makes it hard for the whole cryptocurrency industry to evolve. I mean, it does. I guess the question I really wanted to ask you is, essentially Bitcoin, and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm just in your eyes and probably to a lot of people like an old boomer, But Bitcoin was essentially created to do transactions that you didn't want governments tracking.
12:41So wasn't that always going to be the case, that these cryptocurrencies were always going to be exploited by shady individuals? Because that's kind of how they started. Well, I think there's a lot of debate surrounding this. whether it was... I think the original purpose wasn't set up to be this whole criminal mastermind thing. But for most cryptocurrencies, you are able to track it and you are able to see who's using it. But the issue is it's pseudonymous, which means you're able to see who's moving along the blockchain, which is, for your viewers who don't know, it's just a series of transactions which can't be altered.
13:25and so it's set in stone. So it's able to be tracked, but criminals are moving so fast and using lots of different complicated technologies, which I'm happy to speak into.
13:38Francis Foster:Well, I was going to actually ask, Francis presented a particular vision of how it was created, but I think it's clear you don't entirely agree with it. And perhaps it would be super helpful if you just explain to people what crypto is, how and why and by whom it was created. I know there's some questions about that, particularly with Bitcoin. And that will, I think, give us a good starting base for the rest of the conversation. Okay, so... What is crypto? Please, young man, tell the other ones what crypto is. So cryptocurrency is a decentralized currency, meaning for most cases, at least, there's no central bank which is able to issue more.
14:16There's no people who can seize funds except for stable coins. And so it was set up in the early 2000s, most of these major cryptocurrencies. And each has their own price, similar to how a normal currency functions. But in this case, it can increase as far as you want. And what you've seen, you've seen hundreds of thousands of these cryptocurrencies being set up, Many of these meme coins are being set up. And in my view, in the next few years, half of these are going to be gone because it's not sustainable. But so you mentioned who set it up. The big draw for people about why they like these things is because there's no real government behind it.
15:09With Bitcoin, a person named or alleged person named Satoshi Nakamoto, who knows who he is. a lot of speculation around that. He created Bitcoin. But the issue with that is that it's probably someone you know or you might have heard of. And once that gets foiled or someone exposes it, the whole system fails because then there is someone behind the cryptocurrency. Anyway, sorry, I'm getting sidetracked. No, no, please. So where that has left me and where I've came into it is that cryptocurrency is much easier for bad actors to use and to abuse. And the reason for that is that you are able to follow an easy three-step process in my mind on how you can enter your funds into cryptocurrency, how you can launder it, and how you can eventually take it out of the system.
16:10So I've identified maybe five different interesting categories of how you can get into cryptocurrency. There's these massive schemes called darknet marketplaces where you can purchase on the dark web. You can purchase online drugs, fentanyl, and other harmful substances or services like murder for hire. And then it gets shipped to your door or not to your door, but wherever you want it to. and you can exchange it for cash. And so you have these massive darknet drug marketplaces, like something called Hydra, which in 2022 processed 90 % of all the darknet drug marketplace funds. And it offered services like you see in movies, like Dead Drops, where you give cryptocurrency on this platform, and in your local park, a million dollars gets dropped onto this system.
17:09And across the West and across in the U.S., you've had this massive fentanyl problem. And lots of this is happening through these darknet drug marketplaces. And another interesting platform is ransomware, where a criminal group can hack into the British library or a massive company here within the U.K. steal data, and then they're either forced to pay in cryptocurrency to these bad actors, or they have all their data, which is often regular individuals' health data or others, dispersed onto the internet. And so what I've seen is that North Korea, Russia, and other groups are targeting the UK with these ransomware campaigns and getting paid in cryptocurrency.
18:04So it both funds their war efforts and their defence campaigns and military, while also harming lots of people here within the UK. So, for example, in last year, you guys may have seen this, the big car company called Jaguar, it faced a massive breach and the whole system had to shut down. And it caused a fall in UK GDP, so for everyone, by 0.1%. So it's able to exploit our systems and they're able to get away with it while both harming the UK and harming our citizens. Another example is in the US, something called Sencora, which is one of the largest healthcare providers in the US. It paid$75 million to get its data back because it lost everyone's data.
19:03And so it's really becoming a massive issue. And with Iran fighting against the West now, this is one of the key tactics to try and disrupt normal operations here in the UK, US and elsewhere. Let's be honest about modern life for a second. Processed food, stress, not enough sleep, and whatever we're calling a good night out these days, your liver sits there quietly dealing with all of it while you carry on like nothing's happened. Here's the thing. Your liver is running about 500 jobs a day. Energy, digestion, fat metabolism, storing vitamins, filtering everything you put into your body. You never hear about it until something's off.
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21:02So I guess my question is, how do you get a hold of this problem? Because it's clearly a big problem and it's going to get worse. Yeah. So let's set the scene here. So the FCA, which is the Financial Conduct Authority here in the UK, it monitors all of the financial and regulates all of the financial systems. It says that it will only properly regulate cryptocurrency in late 2027. And for me, I don't think this is, first of all, quick enough or it will cover enough things. You have thousands of people here within the UK who are investing in cryptocurrency. And most of them are either losing their life savings or losing thousands of pounds.
21:45For all the fraud cases in the UK, 60 % of all of them are digital asset related. So either cryptocurrency or stablecoins. And so you have people who are getting scammed in the UK who are unable to get any assistance from anyone. And so I think it's a really big issue. And the thing is, it's only been commercialized, this cryptocurrency scams. In Cambodia, there's these things called scam compounds where organized crime groups, like something called Prince Group, which I identified, are able to traffic thousands of people into these scam compounds to target regular citizens here within the UK.
22:34And so you've got victims on both sides. And this Prince group alone generated$20 billion in illicit funds. The U.S. managed to seize$15 billion in 2025. But it's an ever-growing problem. And so you have these people in these scam compounds who are using AI now to write in full English and good grammar, who are sending messages to me, maybe you guys, saying there's a great investment opportunity and all it requires is sending a small amount of cryptocurrency. They send it, they get led on for months, and obviously there's nothing and they're left without any help. And so what I think is pretty interesting is that even if you are very versed in the financial world, your financial expert or something, you could still fall for these schemes.
23:34So an interesting example of this, a bank CEO who is the head of a medium-sized bank in the U.S., he fell victim to one of these schemes. They promised him you can make 40 times your money in cryptocurrency. And so the shocking thing he did, he embezzled$45 million from his own bank And also from his daughter's college fund from his own church. He embezzled$45 million into cryptocurrency to these scammers. Obviously, there was no investment opportunity. He lost all the money. The bank collapsed into what's known as FDIC protection. And so you had his whole community ravaged. And this is someone who's supposed to be like the leading expert in finance and in investing.
24:24and he can fall victim to this. So it really is a threat right now for that average victim. And so regarding to this FCA regulation, if they're not able to, they need to be able to protect all these people who are doing this. So it's become a massive issue.
24:46Francis Foster:Just so that people understand, are you saying that all crypto and stable coins are effectively tools for this, and that's kind of their primary purpose at this point? Or is that overstating the case? I think it's overstating the case. The amount of laundering which goes on is still in the single percentage of the total volume. However, it's just the amount they can take from this, a single percentage of a large number is still a large number. So it's not like they're able, they're just using this to spend, to buy a Porsche or something. It's funding military. So North Korea receives a third of the government revenue from cryptocurrency schemes.
25:30They infiltrate UK companies and do these ransomware campaigns. They hack cryptocurrency exchanges. So if you're a regular individual, you put money into one of these cryptocurrency exchanges. One day, you might check and you see a balance of zero because everything's been drained from the exchange. And this has happened many times. North Korea, instead of having a cyber defense division like most countries have, they have a cyber attack division, which is focused, main goal and main focus is on attacking the West through these schemes and stealing billions through cryptocurrency. And it's called the Lazarus Group.
26:13It's really a shocking thing. And so it's like an inequality of arms because you have this group, this Lazarus group, who spend their whole days on this. And then you have, you know, the Metropolitan Police or the National Crime Agency who's tasked with preventing it, who have very limited budgets and are completely over resourced, I'm sorry, under resourced to deal with it. So it's an inequality of arms and it's really a big issue. And how would you regulate this? Because that's the big question, isn't it? We've identified the problem. You've done that beautifully. So I guess the next question is, what do we do about it?
26:56And what can we do about it? Yeah, so there's a couple of things that we can do and that I've been proposing. The first thing that I think is really needed, and it also applies to lots of other things, is a whistleblower rewards program. And this is because information in the cryptocurrency space is really hard to obtain. And nobody knows, unless you have tip-offs, what's happening, where and where. And so when you have these billion-dollar schemes, what's the incentive for the lowest-level guy on the totem pole to inform on their masters who are bringing in billions of dollars, who they're probably getting paid a lot?
27:41Francis Foster:Who are criminals or state actors who are very comfortably having to kill. Exactly. And pay for it using cryptocurrency. Exactly. And so this changes the balance of power between these criminals and the law enforcement. And it's actually been done very successfully in the U.S. The U.S. has a whistleblower rewards program and it regularly pays out for all these different schemes as well, not just in cryptocurrency, but also for the cartels and other groups. And so I'm trying to push for that here within the U.K. Another big thing which I think is needed is a cryptocurrency asset recovery office.
28:19So the NCA or the UK authorities are able to seize funds, as I mentioned before, and they have had lots of different interesting successes. But the issue, there's two issues. The first, it's very hard for victims who have been harmed by this to know, first of all, if their cryptocurrency has been seized by the authorities and how to get it back. I've spoken to a lot of people who are stuck trying to figure this out. The second thing is, which is actually pretty shocking, is that the insiders within the police and within the authorities often actually just steal the cryptocurrency and run. So there's a big case last year, a UK National Crime Agency officer, which is meant to investigate drug abuses and other things.
Read the full transcript
29:13He was tasked to investigate a darknet drug marketplace. And they managed to seize 100 Bitcoin. And he stole 50 of it secretly without anyone knowing. It's worth like$5 million. dollars. And for four years or so, no one noticed. And so he managed to seize that without anyone noticing and without anyone investigating. Eventually, they did catch him because it was just missing. But it really raises a significant point about how do you store all this Bitcoin? And actually, interestingly, this has also been done in the U.S. The U.S. has a cryptocurrency asset recovery office. I think there is$20 billion or so in there right now.
30:00And if no one claims the cryptocurrency, what I've been proposing, it'd be put back to use for the good of the community to fund lots of these enforcement agencies and to fund investigations.
30:15Francis Foster:And you mentioned one of the things, and it's almost hard to blame people who are in their 50s and 60s who are politicians in this country who are MPs whose job it is to speak to constituents about issues at the local hospitals or too many potholes or all this stuff that MPs deal with, for them to be up on the cutting edge of the latest tech. You've nonetheless managed to get MPs to actually look at this and take this seriously. What kind of conversations have you been able to have? Yeah, so I've briefed so far all the different government agencies, including the NCA, the FCDO, the Home Office, and all these other organizations.
31:01And I've also briefed lots of different MPs. And so this is a bipartisan issue. No one wants to see their constituents losing their life savings over this. And no one wants to see Iran, Russia, North Korea generating billions through this. And so I've had good reception over this issue, but I agree with you completely. These people shouldn't have to focus on this, which is why I'm trying to push for an enforcement agency in itself focused on cryptocurrency. Like a digital fraud office. Exactly. And so which would have the resources to have people who are actually experts on this, just focus on this, protect victims and stop these bad actors.
31:45again in the US. There's a bill going through the House right now, the House of Representatives, which is the equivalent of the House Commons, to create this in the US. And so I think the UK should be at the forefront to do this. Ridge first sponsored this show nearly six years ago. I've still got one of their wallets in my pocket right now. And I promise nobody told me to say that. Ridge makes wallets, power banks, luggage, the stuff that actually ends up in your pocket or your bag every single day, not sitting in a drawer somewhere. This year, Ridge is running their sweepstakes for the sick time and they've gone bigger than ever.
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33:56Francis Foster:And it shouldn't actually be that hard to fund because of, you know, there are certain government programs and agencies that require you to put lots of money in and you don't get any money back. In this, you do one proper seizure of Russian billions or drug billions or whatever, and you can fund it for the rest of eternity. Definitely. Just one case. So I'll give you an interesting story, which is why this is so useful. So a Chinese Ponzi scheme attracted 120 ,000 victims to invest in it in China. It was proposed as a Bitcoin mining operation where they could invest in this, receive some profits back from this Bitcoin mining operation.
34:42It became super popular in China. Government officials were investing in this. It generated over$600 million in proceeds. the mastermind behind the scheme, a woman named, the last name Kian, she took all the, well, a part of the 600 million, converted it into cryptocurrency, and then fled. She originally fled to Thailand and then Cambodia. And then eventually she took a first-class plane, sorry, first-class ticket to come to London, here in London. And she set up her operations here. Her Bitcoin stash at that point was worth$6.6 billion. And so she was renting a house here in London in Hampstead, which is a very nice area.
35:36And she hired some people to try and convert the$6.6 billion into cash because she was trying to purchase three different houses in Hampstead. one worth$25 million, one worth$10 million, and the other$4 million. And she ran into issues because she couldn't identify where these funds were coming from, the provenance of these funds, which is why what is known as off-ramps, when you're trying to convert the cash, it's so important to regulate and enforce there. Anyway, this tipped off authorities, and they came to her house in Hampstead. And so she got very scared and she fled with the$6.6 billion to York.
36:23And she was renting an Airbnb there. I reckon you could probably get quite a nice Airbnb in York for$6.6 billion. And so she thought she was good. She had lots of aspirations. She wanted to be a queen of a country. There's some place near Serbia where no one's claimed it. She wanted to be queen there. and she actually, linking back to this whistleblower program, some person in York didn't really understand what was going on and found it suspicious. So they tipped off the authorities and they came to her house in York or her Airbnb in York and arrested her and they seized her wallet with 6.6 billion in it and it was just on a USB drive.
37:10And so that$6.6 billion could fund the program easily. And yeah, so it's really fascinating, all these different schemes.
37:20Francis Foster:Well, it sounds like that's the direction in which we're going to have to move in terms of enforcing all of this. It's really interesting. I suppose one question that would probably be very helpful for us to talk about is, if you are on the user side of things, if you're just a normal person who's got a few thousand pounds in Bitcoin or something like that, What should you watch out for to make sure that you don't get scammed? Yeah. Okay, so there's a couple of different things. Firstly, there's this thing called a private key, which is basically how you access your wallet. You should never store it anywhere or give it away because to anyone, you think even if they call you up, no crypto company calls you up.
38:06and these scammers are getting so like advanced they are cloning voices to try and call you to get your keys they have this operation where they send you a tiny bit of money right before you're doing a large transaction and you think that wallet address because it's very complicated you think that wallet address might be the one you're sending it to that's another way but just always be vigilant I think. No crypto company calls you, emails you. But even so, it's getting even worse where they're physically targeting you. So there's this thing called wrench attacks where they see you posting on Instagram.
38:51You've got like a nice Lamborghini or something with your cryptocurrency earnings. Or they even see that you're just talking about cryptocurrency. they'll kidnap you and torture you to give up your wallet key. Now, this is becoming really a terrible thing and it's growing. Last year, there were 17 of these cases where the average amount of cryptocurrency stolen was£500 ,000. And so they go through the most advanced things to try and take you down. and the issue with this is that there's no one to protect you. So they knock on your door, they pretend to be a delivery driver and then they kidnap you.
39:38And France is having an even worse situation with this. There was like 50 attacks last year from this. And so another thing I would advise, never post about cryptocurrency.
39:49Francis Foster:Well, I'd just like to say I don't have any cryptocurrency. Neither of us does, I think. No. My claim to fame with cryptocurrency is I bought a whole Bitcoin for... No, I bought half a Bitcoin for$200. Wow. And when it doubled in price, I was like, I've absolutely smashed this investment. So I sold half a Bitcoin for$400. That's the thing. And now how much is a Bitcoin now? So now it's at like$60 ,000. Yeah. Yeah, so that would have been... So I double my money. It shows how much to invest in. Yeah, and look, I'm joking aside, but I have to say I've always had, you're way too young to remember this, but your dad may have told you about it because in Russia in the 1990s, there was this famous pyramid scheme called MMM, Triple M.
40:36Francis Foster:And from that moment on, I've always had this like, so you've got this like fake currency made by some Japanese bloke no one's ever met, which like doubles in price every three days. and that's where you like it usually if something is my cynical russian side i suspect but it's like if something's too good to be true it almost definitely is i'm definitely and and this ponzi scheme i was talking about it's not an isolated case there's been thousands of these where um you know they promote some things so so not true could never be true um but lots of people um fall for it But I was just looking at this like Charles Ponzi back in the day, like in the 1900s.
41:17I think it was 1915. People were falling for these Ponzi schemes. It's like been a generational thing. And they don't realize until everything's gone. And it's even worse with cryptocurrency because they can run off. And most of the time, they don't even know the identity of the person behind this scheme. There was a famous case where I think it was called OneCoin. where a woman, she took in maybe like$5 billion and then ran, and she's still never been found before. There's good news for some people.
41:52Francis Foster:It's worked out well for her. That's true. But you look at crimes and you go, the incentives for these crimes are massive. Right. Because you can literally rob a bank and get away with it, and you wouldn't make one-tenth of what this person did. And it's also, I mean, one of the big advantages of this is digital. If you rob a bank, you have to carry massive bags of cash. I've seen heat. You have to carry massive bags of heat, of cash out. You have to do some of them. It's hard to transport money across borders. The moment you put it in a bank, people are asking you all kinds of questions. With digital, you just put this little USB stick in your pocket, and now you're the queen of a country next to Serbia.
42:32Yeah, exactly. And I think for these hostile regimes like Iran and Russia, that they're able to use it. So this is why they love it, because you can transfer money from the UK to Iran to fund the IRGC within seconds. So I identified two companies which were registered here in the UK. It's an interesting story. So they were registered under a fake woman called Elizabeth Newman. She gave her address in the Dominican Republic, two addresses the sheraton and radisson hotels um and she registered that she was operating in mayfair um and uh she claimed that um the business the business wasn't doing any business and it was what's known as a dormant um accounts when you're filing dormant accounts on companies house um it was operational for about five years um but in reality um the mastermind behind this scheme was a guy named Babak Sanjani and the operation has been moving billions for the IRGC in cryptocurrency while being registered in Mayfair.
43:41So it's really become a massive issue and they're able to exploit the systems here and make it feel like it's a proper company to move billions for the IRGC. So really terrible issue. Absolutely and I was thinking just from a practical level in terms of recruitment for these crime agencies. How do you recruit people? If you want lawyers, you know, they go to law school, they go to university, they train. Most of the people who are into crypto, just anecdotally, they're all people of your age. Definitely. I agree. I agree. I think there's the exception to that, which is the people who are in these countries, whose main job it is to find ways to move money for their regimes.
44:27They're very motivated and they're very insistent. If they don't move billions, they either die, get killed, or lose their job. And so with Russia at least, all these actually corporations now in Russia who have been sanctioned, like this massive one called Rostec, They're now trying to set up their own currencies similar to A785. So a new development, they've just created something called Rubex, which is another stable coin. And so their main thinking behind this is that if they can evade the Western financial system and if they can create their own financial space, then the UK, US can never sanction them or they can sanction them, but it'll have no effects.
45:18and so it's really a pressing issue that we have to deal with which is why it's so important that for a785 this new stable coin called rubex we um try to take it down no absolutely and but we're talking about stable coins i mean the whole meme coin thing yeah i've got a friend who that's how he makes his money he makes his money doing meme coins and when he tells me about it it i just Let's talk about meme coins because I think it's genuinely fascinating. Because to me, that's just a glorified scam. I mean, even Trump did a meme coin. Definitely. And for a period of time, I don't know about right now, but for a period of time, launderers were seeing this thing, these meme coins.
46:01Just explain what they are first and then we're talking into the money laundering aspect of it. So meme coins are basically a currency which is set up either it's something called like fart coin or some nonsensical idea. And they're set up and their main objective, the people behind these main objective, is to pump it up to get lots of these regular people investing in the cryptocurrency to stimulate some volume and then they cash out all their proceeds while all these other people lose all their money.
46:38Francis Foster:and so but why see the thing i've never understood and sorry to interrupt is i remember that girl what's the hawk tour yeah she did one of them and i was like look i understand why she'd do it because she can make money off her temporary fame why would anyone buy this i i i mean that's the question you have to ask but um but the thing the thing is when people are so like popular there's other people who like are adjacent to this who see oh maybe they can make a bit of money trying to invest in this because they see other people making money in these meme coins. And so everyone gets attracted. It's like all hype.
47:11It's like this AI bubble, but condensed. Everyone goes in and then the people behind this all fell out.
47:19Francis Foster:So everybody who's buying it, it's literally a pyramid scheme. They think if I buy this now and sell it three days from now for 10 times the price, I can cash out before it all collapses. Well, that's what they hope. But the issue is that for many of these schemes, the insiders who have created this, they know, they time when they're going to sell and the people on the other end, they have no idea about this. So you speak about this Hawk Tour coin. So she wasn't the one actually operating the coin. They had some people in the background who issued the coin and they knew when they could sell and she couldn't really stop them because she wasn't in control of the coin.
47:59And so it's really, it's hard to predict. and so it's like such a volatile thing. Yeah, but I don't know. It's terrible.
48:06Francis Foster:But meme coins are basically somebody creating a fake currency that's not pegged to anything of value. And the point is because of the popularity of the person who's creating the meme coin or the virality of the meme, it goes up in price after being launched. And then the point of the meme coin is that the person who created it, or in her case, the people who helped her create it, cash out while everybody else loses. Exactly. So it's a way of transferring the money of suckers into the pockets of the people doing this. Definitely. And so, you know, I really don't, because some of these people, they have no idea about, they don't even know it's a meme coin.
48:45They think, oh, you know, it might be the next Bitcoin. And they get swooped in. I get these emails. These people are like, tell me, oh, I've lost, like, you know, my life savings investing in these schemes. and then they can't get the money back. So I really think it's terrible. Of course. Of course it is. But I mean, Trump did a meme coin, didn't he? That's true. He also did a meme coin. There's also Melania did a meme coin. Lots of people did meme coins. And so the people invested in the Trump coin, I think they lost like$3.6 billion from the cumulative loss. So it's only hyped for a very short time.
49:25but people always expect it to be the next Bitcoin. A while back, I pushed myself in training because I'm a legend, but ended up with a strain that took far longer to recover from than it ever used to. Nothing dramatic, just one of those moments where you realize your body isn't snapping back the way it once did. And as you get older, those moments start adding up. Turns out there's a reason for that. And it's not just getting older. It's something specific happening at the cellular level. That's the idea behind Qualia Senolytic, a science-backed formula built around a fairly new area of research called senolytics.
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50:40Since I started taking it, mornings feel easier, workouts don't take as long to bounce back from and I generally have more left in the tank by the afternoon than I did a year ago. Experience the science of feeling younger. Go to qualialife.com slash trig for up to 50 % off your purchase and use code trig for an additional 15%. That's q-u-a-l-i-a life.com slash trig for an extra 15 % off your purchase. Your older self will thank you and thanks to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. And it's, I find it really interesting. And because it's mainly men who do this, it's mainly young men. And I kind of think, is it a little bit because the economy is what it is.
51:29It's so difficult to acquire capital. It's so difficult to acquire property that a lot of men just think, Hey, well, this is probably one of the few ways that you can actually make money in today's economy, especially if you're young. Definitely. It doesn't help that all these people are posting on social media that they're like their trip to Dubai or something on that. They're on like these private jets. And these people who, you know, as you said, it's like a bad financial situation right now. These people who think, oh, you know, this might be my solution. And then they get trapped into this ever ending cycle where some new thing gets set up.
52:05They try to invest and they probably lose their money. But then the people on the other end are the ones who are reaping all the benefits and are taking these jets to Dubai. Although that's still, I don't know if that's true. You know, these people who are faking something called LARPing. Yeah, yeah. And these people, this is a lot of the time, right before they launch their coins, they post these videos, you know, I'm so successful. I'm going to do this cryptocurrency, you join me, and then it fails.
52:37Francis Foster:You know, I think the economic situation, housing, and this is stuff obviously we've talked about, and it really is, it has become more difficult than it has been in the past. But I also think everyone's always wanted a shortcut to wealth and success and everything else. And I think for a lot of people, it's just tempting because it's like, well, that's why people buy a lottery ticket, except you're way more guaranteed to get screwed on this. And you're playing with much bigger amounts of money. You want to put 20 quid into Bitcoin, and see if it goes up in price. That's a reasonable thing to do.
53:10Francis Foster:You're putting your life savings into a meme coin made by some girl who's famous for an interview in which she talked about how to do a blowjob. You're probably... Sorry, forget how young you are, really. Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is everybody wants something for nothing. And you can't get it. Yeah, definitely. And then the more people who get blown into this, the more a lot of them are turning to darker paths to try and make the money. So there was this one famous case. A person, he was 19 or so, he tended to be an employee of one of these cryptocurrency exchanges. And he called this person who has lots of cryptocurrency.
53:53He had$230 million. And he convinced him that he was an employee and he's handling all the money and he just needs some information. He stole$230 million. And then he went on like a partying spree where in like the biggest clubs in LA, this was, he was like ordering these like bottle services and stuff. And so people see this and they turn towards the darker path, which is what I'm a bit concerned about. And also the young people getting involved in hacking as well. This is like a big thing now.
54:28Francis Foster:And one question is worth asking, because we know people who are perfectly respectable people who work in crypto, who have created things within that space, who have become very successful because of that. What is the legitimate and useful and productive use of Bitcoin and other things like that? Yeah, so I think it's helpful that there's no like transaction fees if you're sending money and for people in disadvantaged countries who are trying to move money. Where they don't have an established banking system, etc. So this is a way for people to transfer money. Exactly. And actually, increasingly in the UK, if you need to move a significant amount of money for something, you have to go to your bank, they're going to ask you a bunch of questions.
55:11Francis Foster:It is annoying. I think a lot of people tell me the actual people in Iran should be using cryptocurrency to try and evade the government. But in Iran, at least, over 60 % of all cryptocurrency transactions are carried out for the IRGC. And so it's like the intended purpose is to help out all these people. But then these governments, these like massive regimes, hostile regimes, who are trying to harm their populations, they just take it over. And so in Iran, it's mainly used by the IRGC and its affiliates to pay other terrorist groups and to receive income, such as the toll payments in the Strait of Hormuz.
56:03In North Korea, not used by its citizens, used by the government. And so I think encouraging people who are in these situations to use cryptocurrency is good, but then at the same time, you have that.
56:20Francis Foster:Alex, thank you so much for coming on. It's great that you're doing the work that you're doing. You're a young man, so you've got plenty of other useful things to do in the future. I hope you carry on the work that you're doing. We're going to go to our supporters in a second who are going to ask you their questions. But before we do, what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be? I think we should be incentivizing more youth ambition. So what I mean by this is that right now you've got so many young people like me. There's like thousands of us. But the governments, the UK government and our school system should be encouraging people to be more ambitious.
57:00There's thousands of outdated regulations which mean people in my same situation are not encouraged to do what I'm doing. Well, not exactly what I'm doing, but start a business, start something to help people. For example, I'll just give you a personal example. My sister, she was going to join a genome project at one of these big science labs. But HR regulations mean anyone under the age of 18 can't help in any science projects. And so whether that's trying to cure cancer, trying to start a billion dollar company, or trying to do what I'm doing, I think it should be encouraged more. And I think there should be more access for people to do internships or apprenticeships.
57:53And this is one of the big things I'm focusing on called Project Ambition. Alex, what a pleasure it's been. I've actually learned more probably about the world in this interview than I have in a long time. And it's depressed me even more. So thank you for that. And if you want to carry on this conversation with Alex, make sure to join us over on our sub stack, where you'll get to ask him your questions.
58:17Francis Foster:Is laundering through crypto any harder to track than earlier methods? Or might it be easier because of the immutability of blockchain?
58:46We'll be right back.
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Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians.
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