The True History of England with Dan Snow

23:32and immediately the number that popped in my head afterwards was 1066. So let's get into it. 1066, what happened? Well, I should quickly say that the 11th century was an absolute nightmare for England because it is weirdly conquered by the Vikings, by the Danes in the early 11th century. But it's interesting that by that stage, Englishness is sufficiently rooted that it endures a foreign occupation. And it's an occupation we now think that is a little bit like we talked before. It's Swain Forkbeard and his son Canute come in. They bring their nobles. They reach an accommodation with English aristocracy.

24:07They're happy to rule in a way that is acceptable to the English people. There is no wholesale. No, you're all Danish now. Had Canute's sons been less useless, we might all still be part of this rather exciting trans-North Sea empire with Norway, Denmark and England, Wales and bits of Britain. That, I think, would be quite an interesting world to which to live. but we weren't because his sons were absolute Muppets. And so you get the re-emergence of the old line of Alfred the Great through all sorts of ups and downs. You get the re-emergence of that line in the person of Edward the Confessor who people have heard of, right?

24:42So he is an English king of the line of Wessex. There has been a recent Danish occupation, so there's sort of quite an interesting sort of Danish flavour to politics and identity at the moment. You've got an aristocratic family, the toughest, biggest family in the land, called the Godwin family, Earl Godwin. Danish wife, lots and lots of annoyingly strong and muscle-bound and fecund children. They marry their daughter to Edward the Confessor, and he refuses to have, but we don't know, maybe he wasn't into babies, maybe they couldn't have babies, maybe he refused to try and have babies. He does not produce any heirs.

25:16And the one thing that medieval history, you know, nature abhors, medieval history abhors the lack of an heir, lack of a male heir. So Edward the confessor dies in 1066 without a male heir, leaving behind him a strong, rich, unified kingdom, England, which because of this process of fighting the Vikings over centuries, has had to get pretty good at centralising, at organising, at collecting taxation, at storing that century. It's a money hose. If you're in charge of England, it's pretty good. Because as ever, you know, war is you know, it puts steel into a state. You know, the great wars of the oh come on, I can't believe we're going to do all this, but I come up of the 18th century, the modern British state is like forged hard in these wars against France.

26:11You know, that's kind of springboard for this great giant sort of global push for empire because you're in training. You know, you've got a clear and present danger every day. So that English state emerges, is very effective at controlling the lives of the people that live there. It's very effective at raising troops, very effective at raising money. It's a valuable, wealthy kingdom. And so everyone's got their eyes on it. The Vikings are back. Harold Hardrada, the superhuman legend of early medieval history, giant tall king of Norway, who's fought his way down the rivers of Russia, commanded the Byzantine emperor's imperial guard in Constantinople, fought as far as Mesopotamia, married a Ukrainian princess on the way home.

26:56I mean, this guy is an absolute legend. He unfortunately is interested in the crown of England. He invades in 1066.

27:03Francis Foster:And this, unlike the other claim you're getting to, he has no right to this claim, no connection. Other than that he claims the mantle of Canute. He says, I am the sort of spiritual and political heir to Canute. And England was once part of this Viking Empire, this Norse Empire across the North Sea. So it's the way things ought to be. Edward the Confessor, as I should say, of course, and we see immediately, possibly the same day that Edward the Confessor dies, Harold Godwinson crowns himself King of England. Possibly on the same day that Edward is put to rest in Westminster Abbey, we think it happened.

27:35Harold is King of England. Harold Hardrada in Norway is like, I want a piece of that, he prepares. You also have another claimant, who was a cousin of Edward the Confessor's, who's Duke William of Normandy. He's across the sea in Normandy. And so you've got Harold of England. He's dealt with internal opposition. He's now got these two annoyingly talented warlords about to launch invasions against him. In the end, the first one to be in, the first, we'll talk about the English Channel perhaps another time, but William is held up in port, we think, by adverse winds. Very difficult to sail a fleet, a huge fleet of square-rigged ships across the Channel with horses on them, lots of supplies.

28:13You want to be pretty sure you can have a gentle southerly wind, which doesn't happen very often in the Channel because you often get this southwesterly wind that blasts up the Channel. We'll be familiar with that's why all the trees are like this on the South Coast of England. And in the end, the first person to land in September, Harold sits there with a massive army. He's able to, he demonstrates the power of this kingdom. He calls together a huge army, sits there around Southampton, around the Isle of Wight, waiting for William. William doesn't write.

28:38Francis Foster:Just sorry to keep jumping in. There's all these little bits of curiosity and Francis, by all means, as well, because I'm, as usual, hogging the mic. But it's so interesting. How does he know these invasions are coming? Have these people said, I am the proud king of England. I'm coming to take what's rightfully mine. I think, actually, he wasn't certain about Harold Hardrada, but he was a bit, no, he definitely knows about William because William is going around asking for mercy. He's asking people to join in. He asked the Pope. The Pope sent him a sacred banner. I believe money changed hands.

29:06saying because, long story, but because Earl Harrell's an oath-breaker, he seized the throne, even though he promised not to, and so claimed William. He'd broken a holy oath. Therefore, this was actually a crusade. It was akin to a crusade. If you go, your sins will be remitted. So young men, what a sweet deal. You go, you get to take part in a great military adventure. You're going to enjoy enormous riches if it succeeds, because you'll be rewarded in this fabulously wealthy land. And if you do die, you're doing less time in purgatory. You know, you're getting your fast track to heaven. So this is wonderful.

29:37So he knows that's happening. William is building a big army. That's why Harold's in the south. Harold, though, in September, he's got to send that army home. They've got to go and do the harvest. He thinks he's survived for another year. September, lots of gales in the channel. He's made it through a campaigning season. Then he gets the news. England has been invaded, not in the south, in the north. Harold Hardrada, the land waster, has arrived in Yorkshire, where we think lots of local people, because of its history of Danish and Viking settlement, there would have been lots of local people that quite welcomed that.

30:08So he'd have been shown where to leave the ships and, you know, good useful collaborators locally. And Harold does one of the most remarkable things. We'd all remember Harold to this day as a great military commander, one of the great strokes of military history. He does a lightning march. There's a great quote by Nathan Bedford Forrest, who was a cavalry commander in the American Civil War. He says, military tactics, it's actually pretty straightforward. All you've got to do is get there first with the most. I love that. It really does explain nearly all militaries. If you get there first with the most, the chances are you're going to be in the best position to determine the course of events on the ground.

30:43And so Harold, lightning marches to York. Extraordinary. Up the old Roman road to York, through the city of York without stopping. And he hears that the Viking army, Harold Haroz's army, is just to the east of York at a place called Stamford Bridge. And he surprises them. And the Viking army are like doing some cattle rustling It's a hot summer's day. They've left their armor on the ships. They're just chilling on the banks of the riverbank, stealing some things, having a good time. And they suddenly see this massive dust cloud and they see this armor coming in. The sun is glinting off it like the sun off broken ice we hear from the saga.

31:15And Harold Hardrada just goes, shit. Shit. It's the English Royal Army. I'm here, half my army are back with my boats, half the army are here. We've got no weapons. And there is then this extraordinary battle. I could go into it, but, you know, They surge across the river there at Stanford Bridge, and they destroy this Viking army, destroy this Viking army. They come across in something like 200 ships. They need something like 20 ships to return home. Harold Hardrada is killed with an arrow to the throat after he went on a kind of berserk, two-handed sword charge. He died in a way that did him great credit.

31:50And then Harold is celebrating one of the great victories over the Norse, over the Vikings in history. And he gets a message while he's at York. He's got some terrible news for you. England's been invaded again. Duke William has landed in the south. So he goes all the way to south. He tries to pull off the same trip twice. He doesn't stop in London. His brothers beg him to stop in London to wait for more forces to come in. He thinks no one is going to surprise him. So his forces are exhausted, basically. Well, we think he's got a core professional army called the Housecarls. These are full-time professionals.

32:19He's probably brought with them... The sort of mass of his army are probably men called up from various local regions. So as he's coming back down with the house cows, who would have been exhausted? They're the elite of the army and they would have suffered casualties and they'd be fatigued. But as he's doing so, he's sending messages, I need the men of Kent, Sussex and Hampshire to meet me here. So he is, there is a fatigue issue. It's not quite the case that the whole army had marched all the way. However, also, but the northern levies, these northern counties that had he had time, he would have said actually Midlanders, Northerners, come and join me.

32:54he's trying to take on William with the sort of southern counties and his elite who are battle damaged. So it's somewhere in between, but it's not ideal. He tries to trap William exactly the same. It doesn't work out. They fight the Battle of Hastings. It goes on all day. One of the most remarkable sort of attritional battles in medieval history. And William wins. He doesn't just win. He annihilates the ruling class of Anglo-Saxon England, which is important. He kills Harold. He kills his two brothers on that battlefield. He kills a lot of important... He decapitates Anglo-Saxon England, to a large extent.

33:26He then is, the Anglo-Saxons bend the knee, they offer him the crown. But then that's not the end of the Norman conquest. He spends the next few years discovering the nightmare that is England. And there is an uprising in East Anglian, an uprising in Cornwall, around Exeter. There's a horrific uprising in the north of England. He's forced to commit some genocide and ethnic cleansing in the north of England. The Vikings have a little sniff at that point as well. He's forced, because of this problem that we have of crumbling frontiers. This will be a problem for all empire builds over the centuries.

33:56He's forced, if you want to dominate England, you discover that you can't stop at the borders of England. You have to push into Scotland. You have to push into Wales because your foes will cross the border. And as we see in Israel, Palestine today, as we've seen, it is, your borders are porous things. And you end like, well, Vietnam War, you end up having to project force beyond the place where you wish to. So he marches into Scotland, gets the King of Scotland to bend the knee to him, which is important later on. He marches into parts of Wales and beats the Welsh princes and sort of doesn't own or occupy them, but sort of receives promises of submission that they'll then forget the minute he's gone back to them.

34:30Francis Foster:Dan, let me ask another stupid question because... No stupid questions. I know, but I'll do my best to ask one anyway. I'm curious, this will sound very strange, but I actually think it's worth asking, what is the nature of these rebellions? You know, a lot of the people, like you said, the ruling class has been killed off, mostly, right? So you're sitting there in Yorkshire, wherever it might be. Why do you want to risk your life, the life of your sons, the life of your family, everyone, for what? That is a very good question. What do you find for? It's something that I think all the time because it's very...

35:06You just go, popular uprisings. Maybe this is the nature of the historical record is you don't learn about the times when William the Conqueror or another medieval king just goes, there's been an uprising there. or just send them some money and agree to do what we want. It seems to me that a lot of the time, the king arrives and just murders everyone. If you're a local member of the gentry, your family have survived hastings, you're still a bit of a landowner, the local Norman lord is encroaching on you. You feel pushed into a corner. I mean, sure, buddy. What are you going to do? Take on the might of Norman England.

35:39Now, there are sort of occasions where perhaps it works, but it's funny, I don't think we hear about this as much. and maybe you march your tenants out and the local Norman enforcer, the lord, you know, the bastard brother of William I or his cousin marches and go, look, let's not fight, all right, you can have your land tenure back. Maybe there are examples of these rebellions actually achieving some kind of political outcome. But often, as far as I can make out, what happens, particularly in the Norman post-conquest period, is Exeter, he just kicks the shit out of everyone. Well, actually, he does, well, he gets his own way and he builds a massive castle in Exeter, that rebellion doesn't, I don't think, succeed.

36:18That may be that beneath the surface, there are some deals done and everyone agrees to chill out a bit. But I mean, certainly in the north of England, it's sort of genocidal warfare. And in East Anglia, you get an aristocratic Anglo-Saxon who was apparently called Herod the Wake, one of the great characters. He may have been abroad for the Battle of Hastings. So he may have been a mercenary abroad, but his family were dispossessed. His brother was killed. And so he comes back and fights this kind of hopeless battle against the Normans for reasons, again, I sort of struggle, but I think they're often elite-led.

36:48So they will be, and they will call up their tenants. They will call up other people that are at risk of being dispossessed. And I suppose if your entire status, your entire lifestyle depends on maintaining land holdings, if the local Norman lords who are being put in across the country as enforcers, they're locking things down by building these castles that have been seen before in England and indeed in Wales, the London Scots. So you're locking in that power. Castles are what you build when the locals hate you. So if you're in a castle, it is a statement in stone, initially in wood and soil, but then in stone, we're going to wait this out.

37:27We're going to sit in this goddamn castle for three generations if we have to. We're going to lock it down. It's what Western allies were unprepared to do in Afghanistan. You just go, mate, actually, do you know what? if the Taliban sort of control the countryside, we're going to give a shit. We're going to control Kandahar and Kabul forever and not going anywhere. Now, of course, no one believed that, that Western Moxies had that level of stubbornness or commitment to Afghanistan. Rightly, they didn't. Whereas the Normans are saying, we're here, mate. And so you get a situation where there are just these beacons of Norman might, and the English can't get...

38:05The English owned the night. They owned the countryside. They would cut Norman throats on a road if they met them. But you've got these little nodes of Norman-ness that eventually allow Norman power to be sort of embedded and allow Normans to marry. You know, occasionally they'll marry into the local elite. They'll co-opt the local elite. They'll kill them. They'll dispossess them. And it's a generational project. Dan, so when you're talking about the resistance, part of me started to think, how much of actually English culture at that time was an honour culture? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It could well be that you said, well, I would rather choose a certain death than submit to these French-speaking landowners to give up my place in society, give up my place in the hierarchy.

38:54Because when you talked about that, the nobleman returning whose family had been slaughtered and he fought a hopeless war. Well, I think if you look at it from a logistical point of view, you could say it's hopeless. But from an honour point of view, this is revenge. Of course. Absolutely. Yeah. And these people, once they've been outlawed, once they've crossed that in that sort of invisible, perhaps quite visible line, they have no choice but to fight. So why not fight?

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40:36Francis Foster:Click the link in the description or go to pure-gold.co.trigger to get your free copy of the Investor Guide. That's pure-gold.co.trigger. Take control of your financial future today. so we see Norman England we see the tentacles of the Norman rulers stretch out into the English countryside subdue submit take control how does that then transition into the medieval period and the dark ages well so the dark age is what people used to call this bit after the Roman rule so that so the dark ages are what historians now call the early middle ages oh is it politically incorrect to call them the dark ages.

41:16Francis Foster:Yes, you should not call them dark ages. Really? Because there was all sorts, no doubt, of wonderful things going on, but we just don't know as much about them because it's a bit more... I always thought that's what the dark ages meant, that we didn't have the light to see fully into them. You may think that I couldn't possibly comment. I didn't realise this was a controversy. No, it's a big controversy. I'm glad I've just let you know. It's the age of colour. We don't want you guys getting cancelled. This was a very colourful time. I also see just things going on. No, but seriously, it's a controversy.

41:42That's a bit of a go, no, you should call it, yeah, no, it's gone. That term is now gone. Look, I think there is an element, because that term, it's not just in an archival sense. We find it difficult to see what's going on. I think it was in an era where we thought that Christianity, the light of Christianity had sort of disappeared from much of England following that, you know, following the crashing out of the Roman Empire of Britain. So I think it was probably, I think it's a term loaded with inference around, tragically, the light of Jesus, our Saviour, had been withdrawn from us as well.

42:20But in terms of, yes, in terms of our ability to see exactly what happened, there was less impressive record keeping at that time. And traditionally, we would have said the end of the Dark Age, the end of the early medieval, is this Norman, it seems a watershed moment in English history, which is why our king list, inexplicably, it dates from William I. You know, which is weird when you think about it. So my hottest take is that Edward I should in fact be Edward IV, I think it is. But, you know, so the Anglo-Saxon kings of England should be included in our kingness. Very strange. Anyway, so we get William and then that tends to bring us into what people call the medieval period.

42:56And you mentioned tentacles around England. And of course, actually, it's the beginning of a process by where these Norman lords and kings will very stop start, but try to bring the whole archipelago under their sway. So we get... Wales happens very quickly. These marcher lords, these thugs, who William the Conqueror puts in charge of key castles and key territory on the borders of Wales. We get Hugh the Wolf in Chester, for example. He lunges along the North Wales coast. He captures Anglesey quite early on. We get pushing into Glamorgan. We get, as I say, pushed into Scotland. And then eventually, under Henry II, so William Conqueror's great-grandson, we will get pushing into Ireland as well.

43:45So you start to see... And this is why this Englishness versus Britishness versus British and Irishness, it's complicated, it's overlapping. So we now have this medieval period, and one of the things that we think about with the medieval period is the Magna Carta. Yeah. So let's talk about the Magna Carta. All right. Go for it. I'm into it. the wellspring of Anglo-Saxon liberty. Let's do this, the rule of law. Okay, so William the Conqueror spends his entire life with his arse in the saddle and his sword in his hand, trying to keep this ridiculous trans-maritime empire in one piece, campaigning in Scotland, campaigning in England, campaigning in France, which is just a nightmare on the borders of Normandy, enemies all over the shop.

44:31His sons fight each other. Robert Henry I William I all at each other's throats the whole time Henry I succeeds eventually Henry I dies without a male heir oh no he had hundreds of illegitimate children but he could not get the legitimate male heir done properly he did have a couple of legitimate kids but he died in a famous shipwreck called the White Ship he leaves the throne to his daughter it doesn't work out controversial it does not work out so Matilda and her cousin Stephen fight so William the Conqueror's brothers fight William Conqueror's sons fight each other Matilda and Stephen fight each other Matilda's son Henry fights Stephen and eventually Stephen dies his son thankfully dies and and so Henry is left as the uncontested sort of king of England the line of William if you like has been sort of winnowed down and just about you know after inter-Nissan fighting so you got Henry II Second, guess what his kids do?

45:31His kids go after each other as well. We have Henry. We've got several kids. We've got Henry the Young King. We have Richard the Lionheart. We have John. We have Geoffrey. So they all fight amongst each other and with their dad. An absolute nightmare. Richard the Lionheart becomes king. Absolute baller. Smashes people all over France. Gets the nickname Lionheart. Now, he dies without an air. A horrific wound from a crossbow bolt while he's besieging some pointless little castle in France. Poor guy, absolutely tragic moment. And his little brother becomes king because he doesn't have his sons either.

46:06His little brother's nickname is Softsword. So Softsword takes her from Lionheart and guess what happens, lads? The King of France just motors in and just smashes the whole English empire in France. That all just goes. All the lands in France go. Normandy goes, the whole lot. In England, the barons, so these lords, turn on John. They sniff weakness. And you get Magna Carta, which is a peace treaty between the lords of England and this useless king, this weak king, and they think we're going to get some concessions out of this guy. Now, he's a deeply unpleasant man as well. So he's done things like starve his enemies today.

46:42He's treated the noble. His death duties are through the roof. They don't like paying death duties. He's making people pay inheritance tax. He's marrying heiresses from the aristocracy to his mates so that they inherit their estate. he's a deeply unpleasant human being and he's a bad politician and he's terrible on the battlefield so he's just the absolute perfect storm of shite medieval king and so sensing weakness they present Magna Carta which is a series of concerns they have and obligations they want him to sign up to and he has no choice he does everything possible and he signs up to them and it roughly speaking it sort of implies that the king is prepared to abide by legal agreements, which is the thing that we all now find important.

47:29That the tyrant, the Hobbesian Leviathan, is prepared to be bound by the law of the land.

47:35Francis Foster:And let's just put a double click on that for one second, because one thing I think modern humans find, or certainly modern Western humans, let me make that exception, find very difficult to understand. In a monarchy of the kind, in an absolute monarchy of the kind that we're talking about, there is no law, there's the king's will, right? In theory, yes, in practice, there's all sorts of customary and sort of traditional ways in which the king would demonstrate that he's ruling well on behalf, in hand in glove with the church and the aristocrats. So technically, yes, the king can just go, you, I want to chop your head off.

48:15But there is a sense in which the king is bound by the customary traditional unless you get a king joffrey or a king unless you get joffrey from game of thrones unless you get king john right who will go or in later periods we see you know where charles the first they will come to that so uh so so john says roughly speaking i will be bound by these obligations and that involves a lot most of it's to with money and and and the concerns the aristocracy but there's things like i will detain no free man and no free man will be tried by other than by his peers and fair trials and all that kind of thing.

48:52King John reneges on that a couple of months later. So it sounds like Keir Starmer. Yeah, it's a dead letter. It's a dead letter. It's not what the paper is written on. And we would never have heard of it were it not for a few things that happened. The barons then invite the French prince to come over and take the throne. Many of the barons. So there is this civil war, brutal civil war in England, invasion. People say 1066, the last invasion of England. Absolute balls. There's a great invasion, but this one's backed by lots of people in England. And all these barons are marching with Prince Louis of France and Prince Louis's and St.

49:25Paul's Cathedral. Everyone's like, yeah, he wasn't crowned, but they sort of acclaimed him king in St. Paul's Cathedral. And then he goes north, and that's when we get the greatest hero of English medieval history. It's called William the Marshal, who just goes. He's like 70 years old. He's been the power behind the throne of like four kings at this point. And he just goes, no, I'm sticking with John. And that decision is made easier by the fact that John dies of dysentery, which is great. So John saves his dynasty by dying of dysentery. He completely screws the whole thing up. He's absolutely hopeless.

49:54And he ends up losing the crown jewels in the wash. He crosses the wash. The tide comes in. He loses the crown jewels. He ends up in Lincolnshire. He's in Newark Castle, I think it is. He's got dysentery. He dies. Best thing he ever did. So he leaves a nine-year-old son. And so you've now got a choice between this French prince, or actually the nine-year-old son, who might be quite pliant, and the nine-year-old son. has got the marshal on his back. And the marshal meets the nine-year-old son. The nine-year-old just goes, my kingdom depends on your work. The marshal could have killed him there and there and he could have said, fine, sorry, I'm with you.

50:25And the marshal knelt down and went, fine, I'm with you, kiddo. It's one of the most romantic and amazing moments in English history. And he kneels to his sovereign and he says, and then he says to people, people say, it's a hopeless cause. And he goes, I've decided I'm all in on the Plantagenet family. I'm all in on this Henry III. And if I have to carry him on my back from island to island, I will protect the life of that boy. And so he goes to Lincoln, and he smashes the French and rebel army at Lincoln. One of the great battles of English history in the streets of Lincoln, William the Marshal, 70 years old, piles in, just absolutely smokes a night.

50:58We have this account written, admittedly, by William the Marshal's son. It just absolutely rinses this one particular guy. And then the French, and then there's a great sea battle off the sandwich in Kent. The French relieving army get crushed there. One of the many sea battles in which the English and British will smoke the French over the centuries, which is a recurring feature of our history, thankfully. And then, so England, Plantagenet, England is safe. So you have Henry III. Now, he reissues Magna Carta to get the barons back. So he is the one, weirdly, William the Marshal, Henry III go, they go, you remember that thing you made my dad's side?

51:35We reissue it now. So we will embrace it. We are signing up to this. And it's that reissue and the reissue by Henry's son, Edward. It's the fact that it becomes this sort of document that is imbued with meaning, which is what, yes, we promised a rule by in the ethos of this bloody Magna Carta thing that you made my granddad sign. You know, that's why it matters. It matters because we have placed our faith in it. It's like a religious document.

52:00Francis Foster:But the other reason that matters, and correct me if any of this is incorrect, is that it's one of the first times in history when the absolute power of the monarch is constrained. And that's why people argue that it's a founding document, you might say, of our democracy. Because people think it's about giving power to the people. It had nothing to do with the people. But it's a way of just diffusing some of that absolute power to the people below the ruler. The king, the sovereign, is subject to the written word of the law. That didn't work in practice. And it was based on things before. Henry I issued a kind of proclamation when he was crowned.

52:39He was trying to win over and over again. I promised to rule in these ways. So it's a promise. It's a commitment. It's, Magna Carta, it's unfinished, guys. It's unfinished, right, as we all know. Okay, this isn't, it's like the Gettysburg Address. You know, we're still seeing whether this all works in practice. Right. But yes, the king appears to say, I accept the fact I can't do whatever I want. I am subject to the law. And then subsequent generations, we venerate it so it grows stronger. It's like the Bible. When the book of Genesis is written down, there's no power in that paper, that parchment that's written.

53:15It's power because of the power we all give it. So when Edward I wants to raise more tax and he goes, fine I'll reissue Magna Carta and I was like fine you're done here's more tax so it becomes it becomes something it means something and so we get to Edward the first and then and then and Magna Carta starts to be embedded in this system we also see the development in the 13th century partly because of Magna Carta let's be controversial of of a system of part of a system where the king will gather advisors to him where he will not try and raise money without the consent of his aristocrats and also of his leading townsmen, his merchants, his burghers and then we see the House of Lords and the House of Commons developing, so we see the beginning of that kind of consultative bodies and Edward I sort of occasionally gets it wrong but on the whole he is a very dynamic, military charismatic, impressive king who asserts his rights but he sort of seems to understand, he needs to pay lip service to try to work with that, this tradition of Magna Carta and Parliament that is built up.

54:16We should say about Edward I, by the way. He goes a step further than those previous things. He really does try and invade, occupy, conquer, integrate this unfinished business of the other parts of Britain. Wales, he largely succeeds, although there's a big uprising a hundred years later, which will shake that. But Wales is incorporated into England, which is why, for example, the flag of Wales is not on the Union Jack. It was not an act of union, a coming together of equals. It was England conquered Wales. That's why the legal system, this administrative system of counties, it is English. It is imposed on Wales.

54:51Scotland very briefly succeeds there, but the first very briefly sits there as the King of Britain. And it's a very, it's an interesting moment. He claims the throne of Scotland. He and he says Scotland is essentially part of this part of now my imperial crown. There is the uprising. People may be familiar with William Wallace.

55:11Francis Foster:So I was about to say this Edward I is the evil guy He's the evil guy in Braveheart That's right He's the kind of madly homophobic For our American audience Yeah that's right Americans welcome to the conversation If you're still here So this is Edward I Long shanks And he was called long shanks He had long legs And he was very tall And then he dies He dies at this critical moment Where William Wallace at first And then Robert the Bruce This Scottish nobleman And resistance proves very difficult to conquer Scotland. It's a pain in the arse. And Scotland's a difficult place to conquer. Why is that?

55:51Sorry, just very quickly. Is that because of Scots? Have you met any Scottish people? Is it the Scots? Is it the climate? Is it the landscape? Or is it all a combination? All of them. I think the Scots were particularly jealous of their independence. They realised quite early on, whether it's fighting the Romans, whether it's fighting, you realise that there is a powerful entity to the south. be that Northumbria, be it the Roman Empire. So generationally, you're protective of your independence. You are aware, there's always people in the southeast island trying to march north and take your land and your things.

56:24Secondly, it is a bit of a nightmare militarily. The climate's tough. The highlands provide this place where you can withdraw to, like Robert the Bruce. So Stirling Castle, Edinburgh Castle, all of these castles are taken by the English, but it is very hard to project force into the highlands to pacify the Highlands. The Highlands were not pacified until the 18th century with an early modern army. It is very difficult terrain. And so there's always a place where you can withdraw to. The kings of England, as the Roman emperors were before them, were like, okay, I think I might spend enough time in sterling things.

56:58I've got stuff to do in my lands in France. I've got stuff to do in... And then the minute you withdraw, then the undefeated forces of, as it were, But independent Scottishness can re-emerge and keep contesting those spaces. So I think geographically it's very hard. And it requires lots of naval assets.

57:20Francis Foster:Isn't there also a cultural thing? I remember reading quite a bit, Thomas Sowell has written a lot about the cultural differences between mountain people and people who live down in the lowlands. And effectively, mountain people tend to have this martial culture. So, you know, the reason the Swiss supplied a million mercenaries to the European armies over the years, etc., is because when you live in these more mountainous regions, the people there develop a much more combative sort of fierce... I think there's, of course, there's elements to that and there's all sorts of examples of that through history.

57:52You know, there's, as someone who's in Hampshire, I'd point out the Hampshire Regiment, tough as you like, and the wars of the British Empire. I mean, they kick ass the whole time and it's no hills there at all. But yes, there is an element of that. There is also an element in which an almost tribal society endures in that part of Scotland that makes it very easy for noblemen, for leaders to call up men of military age. So you end up with, you know, people have heard of clans and clan chiefs. And certainly by the 18th century, you have the tradition of private militaries that's been stamped out around the rest of Britain by that period.

58:33Right. So that is an enduring problem in Scotland. So I think it's easy to raise warlike, hardy, tough men who are good with a knife. there is a tradition of cattle rustling. There's a tradition of endemic conflict with your neighbours in that because it's not a settled agricultural landscape. So yes, there are very interesting, complex reasons for that. So Edward I fell down. Edward I makes... The extraordinary thing about the Plantagenet family is you do just get this very uneven, you get a very uneven performance by its kings. Richard the Lionheart, John Softsword. You know, Edward I, Edward II.

59:09Second, absolute useless Muppet. Okay, so he falls out with everybody. He leads a massive army up north into Scotland and loses the Battle of Bannockburn, one of the great battles of British history. 13-14, there's a great moment. One young British nobleman trying to make his name gallants up to King Robert the Bruce. He's sitting on his stirred little pony. Robert the Bruce just watches him come, then stands up in his stirrups and just smashes down with his battle axe and just cleaves this guy in half down to the trunk. And he falls off his horse. that's the start of the battle. So the English are like, I'm not sure this is going to go well.

59:43So then there's just this absolute demolition of the English army at Bannockburn and the key Scottish fortresses fall to Robert the Bruce after that. And that is a, to see this decisive moment, it means that Scotland will not be conquered by England. Scotland will remain as a separate kingdom until they are joined, but it will be a political union rather than an act of conquest. So then we get the 14th century in the 1300s, which is an absolute nightmare because you You get the Black Death, you get the plague, which kills around a third of the population, perhaps only to half the population of Britain.

1:00:11You get the start of the Hundred Years' War when Edward II's son, who may be Edward II's son, or he may be somebody else's son, he decides he wants to be King of France, various reasons. You get a Hundred Years' War that lasts more than 100 years, in which the flower of English youth is hacking and thrusting and bleeding out in the mud of France. So it's a tumultuous time. And English identity, if we want to talk about identity, is really forged in that period because you really start to see Englishness as quite distinct from Frenchness. You start to see English language being used by 1400, 1415.

1:00:46The English language is being, which had been the language of peasants, the language of the Anglo-Saxons and the Norman courts. The clerics spoke Latin French, you know, Norman French. Henry V starts using it in court documents. So you suddenly, hey, well, I think we're English now. I think we're fighting the French. So that's an interesting moment. and then you get... Well, we can't skip over the 100-year war.

1:01:10Francis Foster:It's quite a long war. So you mentioned one guy wants to be king of France. Why does the war last 100 years? And because neither side has got the strength to win decisively, it is just two punch-trunk boxers just going at it. They take some breaks, they take some breaks, but they come back swinging. Edward III, his mother, is the princess of France. The French royal family suffer an extinction-level event. They've inherited father-son for something like 12 generations, I can't remember, but it's called the Capetian Miracle. And it's one of the reasons that France is the size it is today, because the French just had a very successful run of kings.

1:01:46and that really helps in the medieval period. Then that just all comes to mind. Three brothers die in a row, a baby dies, like the whole family just get wiped out. And Emperor III goes, he gets his scrolls out, he goes, family treaty, he goes, lads, I think I'm the closest living descendant of the former French king. And the French go, oh yes, we've got an interesting problem. There's an ancient law we've just discovered, which means you can't inherit through the female line. Sorry about that. And so he goes, goddammit, I'm going to go to war for this. And he says, the house of Plantagenet, I have a better claim, the house of Valois.

1:02:16and he fights, Edward III fights quite successfully. They get on with the gates of Paris, then weirdly a massive hailstorm smashes down, and it was a monumental climate disaster. It seems to kind of put Edward III off a bit, and he signs a bit of a peace treaty, but he gobbles up more French land. His son, Edward the Black Prince, is a legend. He captures more land. He goes on these rampages, rapinage and smashing across France. He wins these great battles. We talk, you know, Battle of Crecy, Battle of Poitiers, people will be familiar with. and then Edward III and his son die very close to each other and you get classic Plantagenet situation you get Richard II on throne who's absolutely useless lovely chap apparently but just not really up to them not the guy you want if you're fighting a gigantic war in France

1:03:01Francis Foster:this is one thing I've always wanted to ask as well say you are a very nice guy and totally useless king and you are embroiled in this war why don't you just go you know what I can't be arsed have some of this I no longer claim the crown of France. We have Calais back. We don't care. I'm coming home and I'm going to plant my whatever. And that's pretty much what Richard II does. So there is a long break in the war and Richard II does that. Now, one of the reasons you don't do that is if your status and legitimacy and vibe depends on being a great military commander, which by this stage of the medieval period still sort of does, a king is first and foremost, someone I think who's a protector of the kingdom, a sword of state.

1:03:40I think it's a little bit embarrassing to do that but I think Richard II could have sort of pulled that off but he makes mistakes at home, he alienates key people he alienates his cousin importantly and he gets in trouble with the Plantagenet family you know, you think your family is difficult I mean the Plantagenet family is all drama and Henry Bolingbroke, his cousin comes back, invades England and Richard II suffers a terrible unfortunate accident shortly after that, which is really sad so he is deposed Henry takes over as Henry IV and the reason Henry IV then faces a massive uprising in Wales he faces civil war in England so he's then got to impose himself on England, 100 years war still in the chest freezer but his son comes to throw in Henry V who is an absolute like a mentally impressive warrior he's been commanding armies since he was a teenager, he got shot in the face with an arrow at the Battle of Shrewsbury so he's like hideously disfigured he is just a total baller.

1:04:41And he and his dad pacify England and Wales. And he restarts the 100 Years War because he's looking for a little bit of a mission. He's got some momentum. They've crushed their internal enemies. They're still a bit uncertain on the throne. The House of Lancaster, you know, yes, they're Plantagenets but it's a bit naughty. His dad sort of took throne. There's a couple of other older children who probably have better claims. And so he's like, I know what I'll do. Foreign military adventure. So he says, actually, we've all forgotten about this thing, but we're still kings of France, by the way. So he lands and he fights the Battle of Agincourt, 1415, people familiar with, absolutely rinses the French royal dukes, prince of the blood crushed to death under the hooves of their own men, longbow bolts, longbow arrow heads embedded in royal princes and dukes.

1:05:25And I mean, it's an absolute, Henry V at one point stands over his wounded brother fighting hand to hand to protect him as he gets up and goes to seek medical attention. Extraordinary battle. And then after Agincourt, he then goes home a bit, but he comes back and he invades and occupies much of northern France. And he achieves, he gets his wish. The French king, well, the French king's mad at this point. The French elite promise that he can be the success of the king. When the king dies, Henry V will be the king of France. So we've done it, lads. We've done it. And then Henry V dies of dysentery just before the king of France, weeks before the King of France.

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1:06:40Francis Foster:Here are some of the things people are saying. Dennis said, I've had trouble sleeping for years and evening being is the only thing that keeps me asleep at night. And David wrote, I was pleasantly surprised how effective this was in helping me sleep through the night. Click the link in the description or head over to ver.so and use the code trigger at checkout to save 15 % on your first order. Do you know what's so interesting listening to you, Dan, is that when I listen to the story of England, I love history, but I did a degree in theatre. So everything that I know is filtered through the prism of Shakespeare, which is, let's be fair as well, that's kind of propaganda, isn't it?

1:07:25Yeah, totally. Because for the Murray Henry V, I put once more into the breach, dear friends. He probably never even said that. He almost certainly never said once more into the breach. In fact, I'll tell you exactly, he never said that because they didn't go into the breach of Haafler. The people of Haafler surrendered because there was a rule that if you create a breach, you blast your cannon, you create a breach in the wall, you then say, lads, people of Half Fleur, you've got two choices. Surrender now and you will be okay. We'll take some stuff, but it'll be organized, transition of power.

1:07:57Or we send the lads through that breach and I'm not going to be responsible for what happens when they're attacking, their blood is up and they're attacking through the narrow streets of your town. Your wine cellars and your daughters and your treasure boxes are going to be up for grabs. And so the people of Half Fleur went, we're done, we're done. We'll take that deal. So they didn't storm the breach after. So no, I mean, Shakespeare's wonderful propaganda, like Braveheart. You know, it's stimulating nonsense, but inspired by these great stories from our past. I wouldn't go to Scotland for a few years after that.

1:08:30So Henry V doesn't wash his goddamn hands and dies of dysentery. The French king dies very shortly after, so Henry V would have had his moment. One of the great warrior kings of medieval history. I mean, who knows what he could have done? He could have done Alexander the Great. He could have kept going. Who knows? We don't know. Great turning point of history. And he leaves his baby son on the throne, who's A, a baby, Henry VI, and B, turns out to be absolutely bloody useless as well. Actually, very nice guy, to your point. We think Richard II and Henry VI are probably quite nice chaps. But Henry VI, really genuinely poor thing.

1:09:03A, ineffective, B, very, very nice, and C, suffered from a declining mental and physical health that saw him have fundamental mental breakdowns through the later in his career and became sort of catatonic at times. I mean, very sad. Just not the man you need at this critical point. And so you've got a situation where Henry V's brothers, a sort of regents, they're trying to keep France together. The French are like, oh yeah, you know our deal with Henry V? Well, he's dead now, so we don't really... So we've got the French are saying, no, no, we think actually this guy Charles should be king of France.

1:09:32And the Brits, the English, saying, no, no, remember, our little baby is king of France. This little baby playing in nanny skirts. Not a great sell. And then, who joins the chat? Joan of Arc, this peasant girl, teenage, can't read, from the very fringes of the French kingdom, arrives at the French court and go, hi, I've got a very strange message for you. I've been sent by God to rid this country of the English. A historian wants to describe to me, if it wasn't very well attested, it is very attested. We have the court documents, our trial. If it wasn't well attested, there was no way you'd believe this happened.

1:10:07It's like a script out of Hollywood. and she leads the French army, who are on the back foot. They are nowhere. She leads the French army. She delivers victory after victory.

1:10:15Francis Foster:Dan, I must pause you there because among other miracles, this is medieval France and you just kind of skipped over the fact that you've got this peasant girl leading an army. It's bonkers. What? Well, I agree. And I've looked into this quite carefully because I don't understand. There is, I think initially they thought and there is a tradition of this, that she'd be a kind of useful mascot. That idea of you send with the army someone who seems to be like touched by God. They might be speaking in tongues. They might be a bit weird, but they spit prophecies. And there is a bit of a tradition of noblemen going, look at this strange peasant girl who I've just found, who says that I should be the Duke of Alonso.

1:10:51So there is a little, it doesn't come from nowhere. But what's interesting about her, she arrives and everyone thinks, well, okay, let's sort of take her along with us. But she goes, great, I'm in charge. And she does appear to exercise a kind of operational control actually over this. Oh, really? I know, really, yeah. So she is so charismatic and so driven that she appears to sort of win over these veteran commanders. And she goes, tomorrow we're going to go and attack that fortress. And the French are like, no, you're mad. We've tried for ages. It won't work. She goes, we're going to do it. And then, because that's how medieval battles work, she just plows in, this teenage girl plowing in.

1:11:24She's wounded and she stands up and she goes, I'm not leaving the front line until we scale this wall. You know, she's charismatic, visible leadership. And I think lots of times in battles, particularly in these kind of battles, it's belief. The men surge forward. And if you're clinging to that parapet, if you're climbing that ladder and there's an Englishman at the top and you've got your shield raised, I think it's a game of inches. It's like any given Sunday. And if that final inch is that little bit more belief, you just get your hands on that parapet and your mate hoists you over and then you're the first man up.

1:11:55If you just think, our leaders are crap and you're slightly looking behind you, then that's the difference, I think, in these moments. And the difference between victory and defeat in these moments is that first guy atop the battlements, the ramparts, that first virus entering the enemy body. And then you get two up there, you've got a little shield wall and you can reinforce that. And then suddenly dominoes start falling. And then that belief starts to increase and it develops this snowball-like momentum. And that's what she does. That's what she does. And she just drives the English on the creek, sways this territory.

1:12:28And she is eventually captured and burned. But by that stage, the French are on the front foot. And Henry VI, so he's completely unable to hold on to his lands in France, like King John before him. And that's a kind of brutal body blow to his reputation, his respect. He's a sort of gentle, nice guy, found at Eton College. You know, so he sort of... And eventually his sort of super masculine cousins just kick the shit out of him. You know, eventually there's a sort of... Inevitably, there's a fight at court. We'd like to be your advisor. We think you're getting bad advice from that dickhead over there.

1:12:59And so these kind of fat, over-mighty factions start jostling for power. There's a vacuum around the king. now if you're edward the first or the fifth you go i'm in charge you can get back in your box mate but if you're henry the six i was just listening to advice from him and somerset but now maybe the duke of york saying yeah and you get and then of course blood begets blood you know there's a a little scrap and the and you've killed brothers cousins of this duke of that duke and it becomes a it becomes blood life it becomes this savage and you get a war you get wars of the roses you get a civil war in England, in families fighting families, between the duke between Henry VI, the House of Lancaster, the king, and his cousin, the Duke of York.

1:13:38So, back to Shakespeare. You know this from Shakespeare. Yeah, back to Shakespeare. Was Richard III, was he all bad? Did he have a hunchback? Did he murder the twins? Okay, this is going to get me. This is the bit I'm nervous about getting me cancelled. It's called Chicken O2 for a reason. The Richard III stands are busy out there, and they're on the internet, let me tell you. So Henry VI has the great misfortune to come up against another superhero warrior king of English medieval history, which is his cousin Edward IV, age 18. Beautiful looking guy. At six foot four, age 18 wins the bloodiest battle in the history of England at that point, we think, the Battle of Towson in Yorkshire.

1:14:20He leads his army in the front rank. He's just hoeing down men left and centre. Henry VI, not there. Not there. He's not going to be on the battlefield. At one stage, he's injured during a battle. He's under a tree, sort of contemplating nature. Sounds like a nice guy. But unfortunately, you're up against your cousin, the future Edward IV. And there's a lot of back and forward, but eventually Henry VI is killed in the Tower of London where he's imprisoned. Although his enemies said that he died of melancholy. And so Edward IV gets the throne. He goes to see, just starts chasing girls all day. He starts drinking and falls apart.

1:14:57Anyway, and dies. And his little brother, Richard III, takes over rather than those prince in the tower. The princes are the two sons of Edward IV. I mean, my gut, people at the time thought it was likely that Richard had killed his nephews or made them disappear. And it's funny, though, that we uniquely think about it because of Shakespeare. King John killed his nephew, killed Arthur of Brittany. You know, like it was a thing, but it was not unprecedented. But anyway, they disappear. Rich III takes the throne. But in the end, someone who had the flimsiest claim to the throne you've ever seen, a guy called Henry Tudor, Henry VII arrives, awkwardly French backing, French money, sails from France to Wales, builds an army, grabs an army around him, fights Rich III.

1:15:46One particular family in particular of nobles stand on the sidelines till the last minute and then decide which sides to back. And then they charge in on Henry Tudor's side. They become the elves of Derby, still very rich and powerful landowners to this day as a result of their decision made at that battle. And Richard III is destroyed. So then you've got the Tudors. We're into the Tudors. Henry VII, we're the Tudors that arrived. Right, okay. So before we get into the Tudors, my horse, my horse, the kingdom for our horse. Okay, yeah, yeah. Battle of Bosworth. Yes. Go into that a little bit. And was that true?

1:16:19Well, so Richard III, I can't remember if that's true, actually. I should know that.

1:16:22Francis Foster:This entire episode has just devolved into fact-taking Shakespeare. Exactly. Richard III does, he does fight, I cannot remember. No, I don't think he does ask for, I don't think he asks for, because I think he actually at the end fights pretty bravely. So he's not the kind of crooked, utter villain as portrayed by Shakespeare. No way. Okay. And I think actually in the end he does fight and die like a king of England. So we get to the Tudors, and does this, obviously it's just a different family, but does this signal some kind of big shift in the culture and history of Britain, or is it more of the same?

1:16:56That's a very good question. The Tudors didn't think that Henry VIII would have thought of himself as kind of from the Plantagenet line, like, nothing to see here. We're all descended from, you know, it's fine. In, no, I think, look, the world starts, we're entering this modern period, this mad ride that we're on now, this starts changing. The printing press has been discovered. The rest of the world has been discovered. You know, Britain, this is one, for me, this is the bit that I'm interested in. We go from being this kind of outlying rock on the edge of Christendom that's played a super significant part in the story of Eurasia to that point.

1:17:33Well, suddenly, if you look at a map, you go at maps, we're on the edge of maps and medieval maps. You look at maps in the 16th century, late Judah period, we're in the middle. As we should be. Well, as we should be. because the new world has been discovered by Europeans. Hold on. We have a sense now of this world. And it turns out we're bang in the middle. We're in an axis. We're in a crucible. We're in a great place. We're at a crossroads. And so that's happening. So Henry VIII's reign is so interesting. People know about the wise. But Henry VIII's reign is so interesting for me because he starts with, he's trying to emulate Henry V.

1:18:06He's like putting on his armor and going to France and trying to fight. But he calls himself the King of France. But that comes to an end quite quickly. and what's going on is that meanwhile people in devon and bristol and cormoran there's something they make there's bigger fish to fry now we're going west we're going west we're going down to africa we're going across we're enslaving people in africa we're going to the new world we're getting sugar we're getting raw materials we're getting spices we're going to follow the portuguese we're going around the bottom of africa we're going to asia we're going to access the trading emporium that is the indian ocean the south china sea so it's all this that we're now and now i think look human beings have been on a ski jump since the invention the smelting of bronze you know the invention of bronze and you know uh five-ish thousand years ago but ever you know from there to a drone on mars is not that long in terms of our history but really from sort of 1500 from the tudors onwards then we're starting to feel this kind of acceleration you know and and and and everything really starts to rapidly change you mentioned the words rapid change and to me and to a lot of people people see the time of elizabeth the third first as the golden age yeah was that the golden age of britain well it depends no well britain so yeah well um i was in the tower of london just this morning and the beefeaters to the Tower of London, they do their tours and they go, and then everyone, next came Elizabeth I, like that.

1:19:35And everyone's supposed to go, yay! Like that's the perception. And I defer to no one in my love of Elizabethan seafaring and the kind of revolution that was going on this period in England, spreading its gaze to the horizons of Francis Drake, the extraordinary, this maritime derision that has begun under Henry VIII and continued by Elizabeth. But at the same time, England is fighting an unbelievably savage war of conquest in Ireland at this point. And so, and it's something, you know, there are huge battles taking place in Ireland, like really interesting big pitch battles. The Earl of Tyrone is fighting Elizabethan army.

1:20:10Elizabeth is almost bankrupting the treasury, trying to impose English rule on Ireland. So she is like, obviously, it's a nuanced picture, but in England it's remembered partly because of Shakespeare, partly because of what comes before and after. Before, we had the Protestants of dominant Whiggish telling of English history, is that you get a bit of instability. You get Edward VI rules briefly after Henry VIII. You get Queen Mary. Protestant martyrs. Protestants are kind of burned. They become martyrs. There are uprisings. There's instability. There's instability after Henry VIII. You get the pilgrimage of grace.

1:20:49You get the Reformation. This is tumultuous stuff. And then in the 17th century, after Elizabeth, you get the probably bloodiest war in British history. British and Irish history per capita, including the First World War, so relative to the population, which are the civil wars of the mid-70th century. So Elizabeth is seen as a period where there was art and Shakespeare and other poets, and England taking these baby steps out to establishing this empire that until recently, where scholarship and historiography is changed, was regarded as this untrammeled good for the world. The British Empire is this fantastic thing.

1:21:23It's what school kids were taught. And people have seen the genesis of that, which is partly true. So that is when England's first colonies are sent out. Francis Drake circumnavigates the world. The Spanish Armada is defeated. One of the epic stories of English history. And so, yes, that's why it's seen as this kind of, it can be seen as a kind of golden age.

1:21:42Francis Foster:Let's come back to the age of exploration, because this is a fascinating thing to me on many different levels, of course. But one of them is, if you said to me now, Constance, you know what you can do? You can go halfway across the world to these unknown lands filled with, I'm using inverted commas because it's politically incorrect now, but this is how people would have seen it, by savages who will probably stick an arrow through your throat for landing on their turf. And you'll probably die of diseases you've never experienced and blah, blah, blah. Like, that's not an appealing vision for me.

1:22:12Francis Foster:So what is it about this period that people are so willing to travel halfway across the world on rickety boats into oceans unexplored. I cannot even begin to agree. The stories of the Portuguese and English exploration are astonishing. The hardships they enjoyed, the teeth falling out from scurvy. When you get scurvy, old wounds open up, your teeth fall out. And then, so if you have a scar from a child in a previous battle, 20 years before, whatever it might be, they will just spontaneously open. You'll start bleeding from these wounds. Scurvy is one of the most horrific things, obviously, not enough vitamin C in your diet.

1:22:46They had no way of taking the source of vitamin C with them, fresh fruit and vegetables on these long sea journeys. So they were horrific. The conditions, I love sailing and I would not get in the Golden Hine, that little old ship that people can still go and look at the replica in London today and think, I'm going to sit around the world in that thing. You're only kidding. I think it's a product. I think it's a store. I think it's, I think it's, look, this is also, we might come to this. Why did young men go over the top in the trenches of World War I? The whistle blew and nearly all of them, nearly 99.9%, They'd climb up those ladders and they marched over.

1:23:17No man's like, I think part of it is young men. You know, we know the bits of the brain aren't fully formed. I think genuinely, I think if you're a teenager, you're in a rural setting, you're a younger son, you have a life of subsistence farming, you have a life where your older brother's going to inherit what property there might be. You might have a career in the church. You think, actually, I'm going to roll the dice. Adventure. Adventure. Why do we buy lottery tickets? all those 18 year old boys they thought they were going to, they knew that there might be 50 % casualties but they all assumed that they'd be in the 50 % that made it and I think that they're always willing recruits to these kind of because, and also dead men tell no tells, who's coming back?

1:24:02The guys going, you're not going to believe this I got this awesome swag I'm rich who's on the social medias? It's the people that have won it's and and the guys who have been in shallow graves they've been hacked to pieces in southern africa after months of malnourishment you know those guys are not coming home telling the story so it is a really interesting point but you you oh and i should also say actually it was always quite hard it was hard to find recruits like it wasn't easy it was it was sometimes easy to find kind of gentleman recruits because they they are as i say there might be this impetus for they want that they're sort of middling rank and they want that more stage He's like Francis Drake.

1:24:44But it was quite hard to convince sailors. Like, what do you do? I sail, I go and fish off the Grand Banks or I go down to Basque Country. We have a regular, I take Cornish tin down to Basque. Well, do you want to come to India? Actually, no, I don't, man. So Francis Drake had to trick, on his trip around the world, they all thought they were going to the Eastern Mediterranean. That was when they were past Morocco. The lads were like, what's going on here, mate? And he goes, well, we're going to South America and beyond. They were like, right.

1:25:11Francis Foster:yeah well this is before we carry on with with the chronological history which is fascinating dan and by the way just just to say i love the way you bring this stuff to life it's just fantastic so i'm so glad we've got you here one thing i was watching a documentary about the history of england which starts at stonehenge and you were talking to one of the experts the local people there who works there i think it was a woman and you're standing in among these giant stones that had to be transported in some way we might not even know and then erected in some way we can't even imagine at this point.

1:25:43Francis Foster:And she sort of said something as a casual comment, you know, well, you've got to understand these people were just like us. And I know she didn't mean in every way, but this idea doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. Like if you said to the people of Britain today, what we're going to do is spend a quarter of our national GDP on erecting some giant monument to the gods or to God or to Jesus even. you're mental mate we've got the nhs to do with the taxes are too high you know we need welfare spending like what are you talking about yeah no that's a really and so so the thing i always think about is i don't think we were the same we are the same people and i think the culture and the mentality of the people through these different phases that we're talking about must have been profoundly different to the way that we see the world i think that's a really perceptive and i I think as a historian, you find yourself sometimes being so struck by similarities.

1:26:37You know, when you're at Pompeii, that day I was at Pompeii, and they were excavating while I was there, and there are little child charcoal drawings of gladiator figures, and so these could have been drawn because, you know, rain would have washed them off. They could have been drawn days, hours before the eruption of Vesuvius. And that just touches you. You think there's kids here with their charcoal drawings doing what kids do, and there's these moments domestically like that. And then there's these moments when you read about the absolute sorrow that was endured, for example, by Edward III, when he lost his daughter to the Black Death.

1:27:09And you think, God, that's very relatable. And then you're right, there's other times you're like, I mean, erecting Stonehenge, being a concentration camp guard. You know, that you think, OK, this is... So I find myself, you find yourself asking that question again and again. You're like, what is essential to our humanity? What is very different? And yeah, belief systems. Did these people genuinely believe when they're going into battle? genuinely they were hungering for death because they thought there was a better life afterwards you know that kind of thing I you know and I've I actually flip around on that quite a lot because you read a source like okay you know how far this is this feels right and then you read something going wow okay no that is that's very very relatable to us that feels very similar because

1:27:51Francis Foster:I have noticed that in the way that you talk about it you often related what I previously understood as spiritual or cultural transitions, you kind of put it into more pragmatic, practical terms. That's interesting. That's my own bias. I wonder if that's right. I wonder if I'm under... When you talked about the spread of Christianity, for example, and you go, well, you know, they had these monks who could read, who could collect taxes. Yes, that's a good point. That's a good point. But I wonder, you know, I think about the Aztecs, for example, right? Or people in... There would have been people throughout history who sacrificed their own children to the gods in certain contexts.

1:28:27Francis Foster:And you go, I don't think these people saw the world the way I do. I just don't. The Aztecs human sacrifice is, Inca human sacrifice is a great example of that. Yeah, you'd give up, they gave up the, well, again, we don't know. But the suggestion is that aristocratic families would be happy to give. I mean, I personally now would have been like, no, I think my child's got a few blemishes. I'll tell you what, they're beautiful. Or the Spartans, right? Or your child's imperfect, let's throw them in the river. All of that. I agree. Look, I think that's right. I think, following Karl Marx, We talk more about the economic drivers for these things.

1:28:58We're all sort of, when it comes to history, we're all kind of, we're influenced by that Marxist school. So we go, well, I mean, it's the rise of the middle class, isn't it? Whereas previous historical traditions really talk more about the great man, you know, this ability. And actually, again, I find myself just sort of torn and shambolically moving between all these, because I think there are examples in history of individuals who can absolutely galvanise and take things off into a different direction that they would otherwise previously not gone in. But there are also examples clearly where the fact that British government is able to borrow at lower rates of interest in the 18th century means they tend to win the wars against France, even though they had like your Nelsons and your Wolves.

1:29:34So you have to try and think of all these things. I think you're right about Christianity. Christianity is obviously a very powerful and compelling message, one of personal salvation and love. But it's also attended in this period by all sorts of practical real-world advantages as well. So I think it's probably a mix of everything. But you're right, that's interesting. It's good to pick me up on. So we have the Elizabethan age. Yeah. and this age of exploration, this age of cultural explosion in the home country, the war in Ireland. What came after that? Well, what comes after that is all the things that Elizabeth, she does the key thing you do when you're a great ruler, you live for a long time.

1:30:18I mean, I cannot tell you how important that is to your reputation because ultimately you get to a point where no one can imagine you not being a ruler. Louis XIV, Ramesses, Queen Elizabeth I. Queen Elizabeth II. Queen Elizabeth II, yeah. And so actually, it does tend to sort of put a little bit of a dampener on opposition, because people go, well, it's the old queen, isn't it? I mean, yeah. And so what happens after is many problems that were unresolved in Elizabeth's reign that she had managed to kind of keep just about what played whack-a-mole with. So this gigantic religious schism, religious intolerance, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation in Europe, monstrous violence and sort of pogroms going on against people who know my slightly different interpretations of the scriptures than you.

1:31:05That sort of blows up in the 17th century in England. England gets sort of sucked into this pan-European schism between Protestantism and Catholicism and resurgent Catholicism, different types of Protestantisms all going out at each other. And imperial rivalries because you suddenly go, you know, hang on a minute, everyone's trying to grab this, get onto this kind of money train and this trade, you're fighting at sea, you're fighting. And it all just evolves into this perfect storm And then you get a kind of a king that can't cope with it. It lacks the political skill set to deal with really challenging headwinds.

1:31:37That's Charles I. He insists on sort of ruling as an absolute monarch. He just can't. His interpretation of Christianity is different to many of his kind of lairy subjects who want a more Protestant, sort of muscular Protestant form. And by the way, with that interpretation of Protestantism comes, as a Protestant, A, I want different liturgical things. So to your point, I'm spiritually offended by what the king is doing in terms of his new prayer book and things. But I'm also strategically offended by the fact that he wants to make peace with Spain, the Catholic Spain. Protestant Englishmen should do what Francis Drake did.

1:32:09It is the right thing for Protestant. We have now got a Protestant English identity, which is taking the fight to the Catholic powers of Europe, the absolute powers of Europe, and smashing them up and taking their stuff. Right. And so you get this kind of melding of ideological, religious. and and by the way we as sort of protestants believe in the way that we meet and reflect on on our faith is also a way that we'd like to organize our politics we want to come together in the house of commons we want to debate we want to talk uh we do not want orders to be handed out on high by the king like the catholic church the pope says this the bishop says that right sort of and go and do it we want we are protestants so you see this kind of really interesting and complicated, very, very, all of these different sources of conflict feed into this astonishingly complex war in the middle of the 17th century, on top of which is this unfinished business of this English conquest of Ireland.

1:33:07And that has now got a Protestant Catholic bent on it as well, because you're not just trying to conquer Ireland as the English have been doing for a long time. The Irish have said, we are not going to adopt the Reformation. So you're now, the English conquerors are now not just an English and Scottish conquerors now not only foreign conquerors ring in Scotland Britain they are now a different faith so now you've got a really hard edge on that conquest it's made it even worse so you know you feel more justified in sort of hurling Catholic Irish people off the land you settle you put English Protestant and Scottish Protestant settlers on the land the plantation of Ulster that the sort of the horrific ethnic violence in Ireland This king in England is seen to be a bit easy on the Catholics.

1:33:48So the people in England, like, you're not being robust enough with these Irish Catholics who are burning and committing atrocities against these Protestant settlers. It all just builds to this crescendo and you get an astonishing war in which it lasts a long time, the various phases of it, but which ultimately ends with the destruction of the English monarchy, House of Lords. It's our revolution. And Cromwell, this commander, and this is the great fascinating thing. It's like wildflower seeds. When you scour the land and mash it all up and smash it all up, you get the beautiful wildflowers growing up that you didn't know were there.

1:34:20And that's what I love about history. In every generation, there is a Napoleon Bonaparte. There is a Stalin. There is a Cromwell. And if you, like, there is somewhere out there today, there's an insurance salesman who is a military genius, but he never knew it. And he or she could, given the right circumstances, given upheavals and torment, will be thrust into position of command and become a dictator that will conquer England, conquer Wales, conquer Scotland, conquer Ireland. The whole of the British archipelago, in a way, Cromwell ironically achieves the dream of his Plantagenet forebears on the throne in all but name.

1:34:53He conquers the British and Irish Isles. Briefly, there is this kind of unitary state over it, this military dictatorship. Traditional aristocracies are kind of thrown aside. It's military rule, it's dictatorship. And it's a super army. He goes and beats the French, the Sparrow, they go to Morocco, they go to North Africa and kick the snort out.

1:35:11Francis Foster:Give us a little bit more detail on him for anyone who really doesn't know anything about Oliver Cromwell. He is a minor gentry. He went to Cambridge, so he's a sort of educated guy from East Anglia. Goes to Parliament, is religiously quite fundamental. So he's a sort of, you'd say, fundamentalist Protestant. Doesn't believe in bishops, doesn't believe in kings, doesn't believe in being told what to do. He's embraced this idea that everyone has their own individual communion with God. you read the scriptures and work out for yourself in the catholic faith like yeah there's nothing for you to read that's all in latin don't worry about it we're just going and the priest will tell you what to do from the pulpit you know these these people had prayer meetings they'd gather they'd discuss they'd decide on how best they felt their community should adhere to the principles of christianity and stuff so so he's quite a radical guy and then he buts and he leaves the throne to his son he's not he's not crowned but he leaves the bits of this dictatorship you skipped over How does he get to the throne?

1:36:09So he then raises troops. Like everyone, the Civil War breaks out and everyone's sort of raising troops and he gets a few lads together from his area in East Angier. And it turns out they're just really, really effective. And so typically cavalry commanders, you charge cavalry on your horses, you smash the enemy in front of you and you just keep galloping. You chase them away in one's or two. You loot their camp, you steal their women and booze and you have a great old time. Rather alarmingly, like the Mongols, Oliver Cromwell would charge, charge, charge, smash the enemy cavalry and then stop stop these highly disciplined sort of non-drinking you know quite sort of you know strict prostitutters might not have been the best night out with these chaps they would stop and he would go and they'd wheel round and attack someone else so incredibly effective incredibly effective he held on to these men with an iron grip and he defeats the king and the king's force in battles after battle uh and there's various spasms of resistance but eventually he does conquer the whole and he commits atrocities in Ireland famously.

1:37:08But he conquers the whole of the Isles. But this is the big problem you have in revolutions. One second, because I'd love you because I don't think our American, I think British people might know this story. He had the king executed. I think this story is incredible. The execution of Charles I. That's a very good point. The first judicial execution of a crowned head, we think, in history. and he eventually, they say, well, let's put Charles in prison and then Charles escapes. Well, let's get Charles to sign up to this deal saying he'll behave himself and Charles goes back on it. And eventually Cromwell purges people.

1:37:44He purges, this is what happens in revolutions. It's just purges. You have the hardliners end up in charge and Parliament ends up full of like pretty tough people and they vote. They say, look, ultimately this revolution and us because we're the vanguard of this revolution and if the king gets in, we're for the chop. So it's about personal safety when you think about it, right? So the revolution, this new political settlement, this new commonwealth, this new Protestant realm is not safe because Charles Stewart will try and reverse these reforms. And he will also absolutely knacker us if he gets a chance as well.

1:38:17So eventually they decide they're going to put him on trial for treason and there's a trial in Westminster Hall, which is still there. And Charles says, I don't recognise the right of this court to try me. I don't know what you're on about. He does a bit of a slobber there in Milosevic, if you remember that. And then he is condemned to death and he says goodbye to his children. He walks out of Whitehall Bankinghall that's still there. Whitehall Palace Bankinghall is still there and there's a scaffold built in front of it. And he wears, it's January day and he wears two shirts. He doesn't want to shiver.

1:38:41He doesn't want to make it like he's scared. And he puts his head on the block and he dies well. And they chop his head off. And that is just a huge moment. And it's a huge moment. It ripples across Europe. It ripples around the world. Why is that a huge moment? Because an anointed, the king, it was widely believed the king is the anointed representative of God on earth.

1:39:03Francis Foster:And when you say it's a huge moment, is it because people go, oh wait, kings are not the anointed representatives of God? Or is it because they go, oh God, they've killed the representative of God? Both. I think in a way you're absolutely right, and that's a good point. I think there's two separate political traditions grow up at this point, which roughly morph into the Whig Party and the Tory Party, actually, as well, which we'll come on to, which are the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party. These two great political traditions in England, but elsewhere, which is one side go, oh, OK, he's just a guy.

1:39:35So we can, and we should chop and change the guy if the guy is not delivering for us and the people. And the other side go, this is blasphemous. It is a disaster. The more conservative telling would be, we have to find ways to avoid chopping heads off kings. And in a way, the years that follow, because yes, there's a religious dimension too, but there's also a dimension which is those people who support the divine right of kings to govern, they're edged out from their positions of influence. They lose out to these new kinds of people. They don't command naval vessels. The patronage goes in other directions.

1:40:14So this is existential for them as a class as well. So as ever, you see these religious and self-interested economic and social motivations just layered in, melded in together in a way that you've pointed out really nicely. And so, yes, both sides draw different lessons. And in America, people draw lessons. The American colonies are part of this. King Charles was king of many of these American colonies, too. And so they draw different lessons as well. So some of those American colonies believe that that moment enshrines the right of resistance, so-called right of resistance, which is removing an illegitimate king or an executive authority that you disagree with.

1:40:48There is the right of violent resistance against that if, you know, when that becomes intolerable. And you see that in the 18th century of the American Revolution. And so Charles is gone. There's a new regime. But like all new regimes, it's quite hard to bed in. You can't command the loyalty because everyone goes, well, you're only 10 years old. You know, the Plantagenet family have been around for generations. I mean, I can understand why they're in charge. but I mean you guys I mean you just made all this up yesterday right so when Cromwell dies everyone's like what happens now everyone's like we put Cromwell's kid on the throne and everyone goes no he's useless and then there's a bit of jockeying for position and in the end Cromwell's own people go well let's just get let's get King Charles' son back because at least stability is better than chaos and we do not want to go back to war and they get King Charles II back but this is the kind of critical moment which is why this still matters King Charles II is clever enough unlike the French when they're restored after the French Revolution he goes okay you know what we're going to do I'm back the monarchy's back let's pretend nothing ever happened but deep down I get the changes that have occurred here I'm cool with the fact that we now have a parliament that is almost co-equal to me in terms of decision making in this kingdom I'm not going to force it I'm still going to run around like I'm a divine king I'm a fabulous steward I've got my palaces I've got my hair got my mistresses but I kind of get it I get it I'm going to be a bit more sensitive Charles II's brother Charles II many many children who he acknowledged but they were legitimate like Henry I Charles no legitimate children poor Catherine of Bruganza his wife one of the most long-suffering women in history Charles II succeeded by his brother James II who lacked that tact lacked deft touch and he just barrels in and says no I'm divine right kings you guys you know I'm the Stuart family we're still in we you know we were restored to the throne, take it or leave it.

1:42:38And he lasts three years. And I think that's a reflection of the fact that there were profound changes that had taken place in the middle of that 17th century that people had gone, do you know what? There is now a political tradition in this country where we're not an absolutist monarchy. There were people who were shocked at James. Of course, the division within the political elite, they found that they put James II's son-in-law and daughter on the throne as equal monarchs. but there were a series of acts of parliament there are a series of as we used to say at university de facto and de jure changes in the 1690s that meant that britain develops effectively that kind of constitutional monarchy that we now in a slow process but big changes take place the king is not allowed to raise money in certain areas without the permission of parliament the king has to call parliament every parliament has to exist he can't just go go home for three years i'll run the show by myself there are big changes that take britain down that path constitutional monarchy so that is the 17th century a big battle see where power lies in britain and so what's really interesting about that is that it shows and that it resonates today which is the moment you give up power you ain't gonna get it back yes i think that's right and it that's right yes and It also shows that, for me, it also shows that elites that were prepared, like compromise, the people talk about this in compromise, this sort of British identity of compromise, if at the end, the kind of ultras blink, they go, do you know what?

1:44:12This is not worth fighting a while. I mean, it's the experience, that trauma of the 17th century that's made British aristocrats and elites through the 18th and 19th, 20th centuries. they often they there were there are constitutional crises where dukes and earls and viscounts go no way man we're not doing death duties we're not allowing this and in the end they back down and in the end there is kind of organic incremental change possibly because of this trauma of the 17th century possibly because something in the british character and an understanding so so it also suggests that like compromise change is possible and getting whereas in russia the ultras go no no no there's going to be no it's our it's autocracy it's autocracy it's autocracy until it wasn't you know and then your princess that's right and different type of autocracy and then your princesses are in a shallow ditch yeah right and and i think that is that is something give modern british history a kind of interesting different flavor some things going on elsewhere

1:45:06Francis Foster:now we could keep going for hours more and i would love to but our time is running low okay we've probably got another 10 minutes or so okay so i i want to we're actually just now getting to the good bit. Give us the good bit. No, no, you ask me the question. Well, I actually was going to move on from the chronology. So perhaps if there's, if you want to take a couple of minutes just to fill us in on the rest of the story. Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So then we get the 18th century where Britain, so Britain's known as the land of revolutions in the 17th century. You've got civil war, you've got a king killed, another king deposed, James II.

1:45:37You've got various uprisings going on. It's a difficult time. No one would have said Britain, that one, those guys there, they're about to run the world. But that's exactly what happens over the next 150 years or so because the Industrial Revolution happens in Britain because the Commercial Revolution. There are so many revolutions.

1:45:53Francis Foster:And why does it happen in Britain? Oh my God, oh my God. I've always saw it's the shit weather because there's nothing else to do but work. I think that's part. It's everything in it. It's accessibility. Britain is the Saudi Arabia of coal. It's accessibility of high energy coal quite near the surface which you can get at. Britain is surrounded by water. There's great rivers. You can build canals quite easily. so you can get that coal to industrial enterprises really easily. Britain, because of the constitutional changes of the late, of the 1690s, you've got parliament that can kind of enforce laws.

1:46:25You've got stat, you've got, you know, things like you can invest, you can, there's venture capital, there's ready availability of venture capital because of this trading commercial revolution. People are making vast amounts of money from slave-grown sugar. They invest that in what that funny little man's doing up the way, tinkering with steam engines. steam britain was not over-embowled with genius and the french worked on steam a lot but it's what takes off in britain it takes off in britain you get these this culture of self-taught men who just who are able to attract um funding who are able to defend their patents which is important unglamorous stuff like that and they then build businesses so it's all of the stuff we're still talking about now why is why does economic activity happen where it does so it's raw materials lots of iron, lots of coal, accessible, a common market, ships.

1:47:12It's really interesting. And then Britain used that industrial might, partly used that industrial might, that scientific progress, to conquer great swathes of the world. Britain first goes to India in the 17th century. In battles, the British and English no more like to win than the locals. It's very evenly matched. By the late 18th century, you've got better muskets, you've got better logistics, supplies, extraordinary ships carrying mountain cannon like H.M.I.E.'s Victory. You've seen that in Portsmouth. It is this plethora of things. And Britain is then engaged in this mighty war, not unlike Alfred fighting the Danes, the Vikings.

1:47:50War sharpens this national enterprise. Britain is locked in combat. The Chinese, the Qing, for example, you get a little bit rusty because you're hegemonic in your region. you're chilling out, you're not in the gym. Britain is just fighting constantly. And Eisenbard, King of Brunel's dad is over here going, what if we do this? He invents production life. There's entrepreneurs going, if we attach copper plates to the bottom of these ships, it might give us a slight advantage against the French. It is really, really productive and innovative. And that then leads to, like the American military in the 20th century, buying up microprocessors and chips.

1:48:28the Royal Navy is this gigantic consumer of the industrial of industrial projects anyway so then you get to the 19th century Britain is has this huge advantage and kind of conquers this monument the biggest empire in the history of the world partly because of its own technology and money but also luck other you know India China was having a bad time America hadn't got its stuff together yet Germany had not yet invented you know so actually British the British power sort of emerges in the world and feeds off this lack of competition. That competition gets its game on in the middle of the ninth century.

1:49:00And this may sound familiar to people in America, but the Brits miss out on the next spasms of the Industrial Revolution. They kind of miss out on chemicals. They miss out on cars. So the Germans and the Americans in particular are getting better at things that overtake the Brits. And then we get to the 20th century. But, you know, Britain's still a great global power in the late 19th, early 20th. And then we get the monumental global clashes the 20th century. First and Second World War, which I think in future will almost be seen as one gigantic sort of 30 years war in which competitor powers influenced by the building of these massive global empires.

1:49:32And I include America in that. You know, America conquers North America. Russia conquers Northern Eurasia. Britain conquers much the rest of the world. And driven in that context, competitor nations, rising nations like Germany and Japan, they want a piece of it. And you fight these ginormous wars for global empire that finally come to end in 1945. Then you get the Cold War and at the end of Britain there's a great power. But yeah, so that's a dash through.

1:49:57Francis Foster:Well, that was awesome. Really enjoyed that. We will have to invite you back and talk in more detail about some of the things. But for now, in terms of the chronology, you'll probably leave it there. The one thing I wanted to ask you in the last couple of minutes is, with all that said, what does it mean to be English? What does it mean to be British? Are there trends that you might pluck out from history and from the way that people are here versus the way people are in other places. I was born in the Soviet Union and came here in 95. So it's a question that's always fascinated me. But I also think it's a question that is very pointing today because I feel in the moment when we are trying to find a way to have an identity that is sufficiently clear, but also that people can buy into so that we can live in a cohesive society.

1:50:43Francis Foster:So if we were to say, you know, what does it mean to be British? What does it mean to be English? What's your answer? I think history is difficult here because what's pretty clear is that identity is something that we take on. It's not an external force. We're not passive to identity. It doesn't come and occupy us. And in the 17th century, that's what they're fighting about identity. Who are we? Are we Catholics? I mean, Britain's been through some 180 degree. Britain used to regard itself as a bastion of mixed aristocratic, royal and representative government against democracy. Britain used to, you know, there were peals of laughter that was suggested in the House of Commons that women might one day vote.

1:51:24So do we say, well, we've always believed in equality? So Britain was leading participant in the trade in enslaved human beings. But also led the way in...

1:51:40century on the way through. So these things, and then we talked about the 17th century, who are we? Are we Protestant? Are we Catholic? Are we high church? What kind of Protestant Catholics are we? Are we people that go and fight the Spanish and carve out empire? Are we people who are like, what are you on about? We just trade with them, man. We'll make more money trading with them. So I'm not sure that history has any consistent, I mean, until there's a great expression of the 18th century that says to be an Englishman is to hate the French. You know, like, I mean, I'm not sure that's super valuable today.

1:52:16In fact, with Vladimir Putin on the march in Eastern Europe, I think we should hug the French as close as we can. I mean, I think we need our European allies, right? So, and in fact, in 20th century history, Britain fought the two greatest wars in its history on the same side as the French and most of those wars. So, this was a country that gloried in bear baiting and fox hunting. You know, identity is something that has evolved quite so i think i don't know what history teaches about identity other than identity is what what we choose it is malleable of course it's influenced by by the past and yet it's something that i think we need to be active in in in forging ourselves it's not something that's just going to come come to us it's people like you on this podcast are forging identities.

1:53:05That's why the Normans built gigantic Romanesque cathedrals around England. They said, by the way, guys, this is now the kind of Catholics you are. This is how you worship. You know, identity has often been quite an elite project.

1:53:19Francis Foster:Well, and you mentioned, for example, was it Alfred the Grey? Yeah. Classic. You're not Mercian, lads. You're English. Now get in the ranks. Well, right. And it's interesting because there's, as I'm sure you're aware, there's this whole big flag debate at the moment. And I remember Francis and I went to a private dinner in which there was a speaker who talked about the fact that flag waving is not a very British thing, historically speaking. And he made the point that it tends to be something, generally speaking, that becomes prominent at times when people feel fairly insecure. They feel that there's an external threat or maybe an internal threat or there's some kind of challenge.

1:53:59Francis Foster:And it feels like maybe that's where Britain is at the moment. Possibly some people. I think there was a great complaint by some in the late 19th century that the British people didn't care about their empire. and if you read Jane Austen if you read fiction for the 19th century a lot of the time the fact that you've conquered the sway of Southern Africa no one really cares there's big debates like who's benefiting from empire actually often it's the settlers in Southern Africa and Buddy Whitehall's writing the checks when they go and antagonise the locals oh great we'll send the red you've nicked everyone's land now we're going to have to send the redcoats in so these things are really complicated but then in the late 19th century you do see this jingoism that kind of they get it on the music halls the popular press you've got more union flags, you know, just the Navy, they park big battleships.

1:54:43They deliberately do that. They take it to Liverpool. They take it to Glasgow. HMS Warrior, people are going to see in Portsmouth. When that's launched, it doesn't fire a shot against the French. It spends a lot of time doing propaganda tours in the UK. And people are encouraged to go on it. Look, this is it, lads. We're a maritime nation now. Now, Britain was, I love the sea. Britain, but now we see lobbyist people, I go to conferences and we talk about sea blindness. The people of Britain don't consider themselves, I don't think, a super maritime people. It's not something that you your friends and family don't go and serve in the Merchant Marine, the Merchant Navy.

1:55:16You don't meet... Our politicians haven't served in the Navy. So we, but Britain used to be, and people like me, are engaged in a kind of low-level and frankly hopeless effort to sort of nudge that identity a bit in that direction, to help people reconnect with the sea, that our destiny lies on the ocean. So I feel that history, again, I'll just come back to the fight. We get to choose our identity, and that will inevitably be a battle. It is a battle between, look, flag's a great example. We have an English flag, we've got a British flag. Now that's fascinating. I find that for some people there's an elision there, but by putting that English flag on there, you're saying something fundamentally different to putting that union flag on there.

1:56:03That in itself is a massive schism that exists even within the flag putter-uppers.

1:56:09Francis Foster:Yes, it's true. Dan, what a pleasure it's been. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Before we head over to Substack, where we ask you questions from our supporters, first, tell everybody, I'm sure there'll be loads of people wanting to find more of your work, where they can do that, and then we'll ask you to find a question. Just go to History Hit, folks. Like you guys, we're on all the platforms. We're spraying it out everywhere we can. History Hit, podcast, YouTube, subscription video, all the stuff. Final question, what's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

1:56:35Well, in this conversation, I'm a bit nervous about the Greenland ice sheet falling off into the North Atlantic. I mean, what's interesting about, I mean, so catastrophic climate change, catastrophic disease, those kind of like antibiotic resistant drugs and strains of disease. I think that we are all so busy. Inevitably, we've got the cut and thrust of who's in and who's out in Whitehall. There are these massive systemic things we're not talking about. So, and what's really interesting about prehistory is you can look at, there have been moments in prehistory, for example, when the English Channel was formed.

1:57:10That seems to have been quite a catastrophic event. These not glacial geological terms. That we could, as somebody who lives about two metres above sea level, I'm really worried about catastrophic sea level rise. And, you know, as I say, the Greenland ice sheet just falling off. And so I would say, unfortunately you might call me a progressive lib, you know, crybaby or whatever the expression is, But I do think existential civilizational shock as a result of supervolcanoes, disease, climate change, but climate change, both man-made in other forms, I think is something that we're undervaluing here.

1:57:49So enjoy that. All right.

1:57:53Francis Foster:Head on over to Substack where we ask Dan your questions. How much do you think the Board Award Do you like the reaction? Yeah, set the stage for World War I and II