Why We’re Fatter Than Ever - Mike Israetel

24:08And are people in all bodies fundamentally beautiful, wonderful human souls? Categorically, yes. value as a grand understanding has nothing to do with how you look or how fat you are, how skinny you are. That's ridiculous. It's like an eight-year-old understanding of the world. On the other hand, is it true to say that other people will find you as attractive and appealing if you're morbidly obese as not? No. And if they tell you that, they're one of two things. The rare, though commendable fat fetishists, my people, or Patreon link below, or people who are lying mostly in order to appear nice but they're lying to you here's the biggest fuck all those people fuck everyone else what about you here's the the my biggest take from this fat people themselves don't think fat is beautiful 97 times out of 100 and so when you tell them Oh, fat is beautiful.

25:08They want to believe it, but they don't believe it. Imagine a world in which you took a very, very obese person and aliens come down and they're like, so we gave everyone a mind virus. They actually just find obese people insanely attractive. Now you're walking down the street. Everyone's like, you know, people are hollering at you. Like construction workers are taking their clothes off. Hell's going on. And then you come home and you look at your body. Do you love your body now? Is it that simple that socialization can flip that switch? Or even after a few months or a few weeks of being inundated with compliments, do you love your body?

25:43My contention is the answer is mostly no. Because how we assess bodies is mostly engineered into us via evolution from mechanisms that are real simple pattern detectors in our visual field. And if you are a certain shape, you're going to like your own shape in the mirror. If you are another shape, say, grotesquely overweight, you're not going to like it most times. And when people lie to you and say fat is beautiful, body positivity, you're not really going to believe it. And also those people don't really believe it either. So when we're telling people, hey, body positivity is great, fat is beautiful, why are we doing that?

26:18And I know why. It's so that fatter people can feel okay and not terrible. Well, that's a commendable reason. I think that's awesome. And so I think we can simultaneously work as a society, though you guys know enough economics to know that multiple components of the society, not all of them agree, that most people can work on at the same time welcoming everyone, every gender, every race, every sexual orientation, you know what I'm saying? Trans people, weird people, Muslim people, get them all in, fat people, love everyone. Maybe not love, love, because my parole officer keeps saying you can't physically just start loving people in the street, Mike, again.

26:51And everyone should be treated with a fundamental degree of respect and acceptance. And we can also say some people are found more physically attractive on average than others. We don't have to mix those two ever. Like if I walk up to a, you know, I'm married. My wife's sitting over there. I'd be really careful what I say. She gets violent. I'm just kidding. She stays violent. So I walk up to a five foot 11 model in New York. And I'm like, you know, my best line is, hey, baby. what do you think? If she's like, you're a little short, I'm not going to be like, you know, in my best self, I'm not going to be like, height oppression continues like years.

27:31And Marx talked about this. I'm going to be like, I don't think she hates me deep down as a human, but I just think she's not into short guys. And that's all right. I'm five, six, it happens. And when you're very overweight, you look at certain way that neither you nor most other people find ideally attractive from a physical porking perspective. All right. But like, you know, there are so many other utilities for people other than like being in Victoria's Secret ads. Like, like we need to get more obese models. Like why? So they can also have cocaine addictions and prices of eating at age 22.

28:05You know, like, is that really the pinnacle? So I think us admitting, look, most people want to look a certain way. And that certain way is like, you know, some more muscular than others, some fatter than others. Most people have an understanding. Matt Damon type of shit, you know, like just looking like a normal dude, a little bit of abs, maybe the Brad Pitt from Fight Club look. That's kind of the normal distribution about look preferences, kind of, that's the center. And it's not a very wide distribution. We can have that and admit that to ourselves. Well, at the same time saying, look, a lot of people just don't look like that.

28:37And the next question is like, hey, do you want to look better? And they're like, well, yeah, let's figure out how to leverage science, coaching, software, and pharmaceutical technologies, which I'm huge on, in order to get your version of you right now physically into a package that looks more like what you want to look like and what everyone else seems to find handy dandy. And I think that honesty, which you guys are very famous for on the show, like, I get some not so nice feedback on it. But here's the thing. It's fucking true. There's this whole movement called health at every size, haze.

29:11And the fraction of that movement's waves in the water has like shrunk by a factor of 10 ever since the modern obesity drugs came out. Ozempic and Trisepatide and Manjaro, whatever, they came out. And a bunch of those people kind of look around like, there's a pill I can take, a shot I can take, there's no longer babies. And they just don't come to next week's meeting of fat people, you know, because at the end of the day, most of those people don't want to be fat. It would be very, very different if people who are overweight, as a majority of them, really loved their look and how they feel and their health.

29:43And everyone was like, you look like, you need to change. What? No, that's ridiculous. Stop doing that. But they don't. Most overweight people do not want to be overweight. And most other people also don't fancy the overweight as much. And so there's actually no mystery. The only, not mystery, but discordance is some group of people, you know, on the political left, academia, people I think mostly are very good people. They're just trying to do right and everyone else is bullying them to saying the shit. They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Fat is beautiful. They say shit like that.

30:13I think it just lends just more confusion because at the end of the day, nobody really believes that there's this funny like meme going around, a Lionel joke. You know, like your super hot girlfriend and her super hot friends are like, oh my God, Lizzo's beautiful. And then you're like, hey, you look like Lizzo today. She's going like, what the fuck? And like, why the discordance? I thought she was beautiful. And then that girl, like, if you sit her down, if you're, like, to try to forget sociology at Harvard your last year, is Lizzo beautiful? Like, as a human and a fucking rock star, queen energy times 100.

30:42Lizzo's a goddess. The rest of us are just in her wake. But, like, as a person of body composition, you want to attain in order to, like, attract the highest number of mates. And much more importantly, look in the mirror and be like, yeah, fuck with that? No. And that's okay. And we can be honest about that without coming up to people who look like Liz and being like, you're fat. You know, like I'm autistic as shits. I probably do something like that. You know what I mean? There's that massive discordance. I think the body positivity movement comes from all the right perspectives, but ends up doing a disservice because it's trying to bleach, wash away literal reality of the fact that, again, most fatter people do not want to be fat.

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33:18Francis Foster:You come away understanding why Achilles' real fight isn't with the Trojans, it's with himself. This is one of more than 40 free courses Hillsdale offers on the Constitution, the Roman Republic, the American founding, Genesis, the Second World War, and more. All built the same way, taught properly, and not dumbed down. I couldn't recommend Hillsdale courses more highly. Go to hillsdale.edu slash trigger to enroll for free. That's hillsdale.edu slash trigger. It's also the long-term implications which we touched on. So my mother throughout her entire life was morbidly obese. And she was like, oh, but I'm fine.

33:53And I go for tests and whatever else. And they've told me my blood pressure is fine. So is there a problem? But what people don't seem to understand is the effect that obesity has on your muscular and your skeleton. And so what happens is my grandfather, who was a doctor, described it as being like hinges on a door. And so when you put too much weight on the hinges, what happens? It will come off. And the effect that it has had on her hips and her knees to the point where she is now physically disabled. And I always found this conversation really frustrating because I was going to people, you're denying reality.

34:26Yeah. You're denying reality. And what you're doing is condemning people to an old age where they're sick. And that's awful. Yeah. It's one of those things that it's like blood pressure. The real thing with blood pressure is if your blood pressure is high, almost always you don't feel it. And they like wake up one day with high blood pressure and you're like, there's no sensation like that. And so if you have high blood pressure, you can have it for years and just be none the wiser. And because you feel fine, you think you're okay. And then like, you know, two years later, they're like, hey, your kidneys are done, bro.

34:59You need kidney transplant. You're like, how? And they're like, what's the blood pressure destroyed all of the little tiny machines in there that do the filtering. That sucks. And so with obesity, a lot of times, two things. First of all, people feel just fine for years, no doubt, like your mom did. And then by the time they're in their 60s, still obese, can't move around, weight loss becomes very, very difficult. And if you lose weight without being very active, you lose a lot of muscle as well. And that's very, very bad for your health. It's one of those things like everything's fine until it isn't, you know?

35:29Like if you're driving your car and you have no seatbelt on, like you're fine until you hit a telephone pole and then you're part of the telephone pole and that whole fun thing happens. So that is a big, big deal because it's really easy to forget that sort of thing. And with obesity, another thing is you feel fine. But because weight typically accumulates slowly and your brain is really good at adjusting how you feel to all these differences, what ends up happening is when most people lose lots of weight, they go, oh, my God, I feel incredible. and they're like, did I really feel that bad this whole time?

36:10Uh-huh. You were just used to it. Do you guys see very obese people like walking around the store and they're like, they're doing one of these, like they're shuffling. It looks like they're lifting an enormous amount of weight because they are. It looks like it on their face. They have walkers, they're kind of pushing. And then you see someone of, you know, lighter weight just kind of, just scamper across like, yeah, man. But those people, they get used to it enough and they're like, this is just how life is. So once you lose the weight, you feel better. But during the time that you have that weight on you, for a lot of people, they feel totally fine.

36:41They go to the doctor, the doctor's like, you know, there's doctors that will pursue optimality with you. Like, look, this is unsustainable. Don't do this to yourself. But many doctors, I want to say most, like as long as your fundamental current in the now blood work looks like not admissible to hospital yet, they're like, yeah. And they always say the same shit. I'm trying to lose some weight. and they're like okay and you leave the doctor's office you go have mcdonald's and you forget about it two years later come back to doctor and you're totally fine 15 years later you go in get some blood work and they're like you have like three different types of cancer and you're like huh

37:13Francis Foster:i didn't see that one coming you should have but you and uh mike what is the mechanism by which obesity um is unhealthy how does that work like how long do you have you know well i get i suppose what I'm asking is I think we sometimes get very confused and I think a lot of people just feel that obesity is mostly an appearance thing. Really? I think a lot of people do feel that. Wow. And I think that's partly because it's a way of putting that out, the reality out of your mind. Sure, of course. And there's been times by the way, just if people are watching all these three people in normal shape or slagging off fat people.

37:55Francis Foster:There were times in my life when I was fat. And I think I was young at the time, but my concern was definitely not about the health implications. Well, of course. Right. Of course. But how does it work? Why does being fat? Because the reason I ask this is, A, there have been cultures in history where being obese was considered attractive or at least desirable, particularly places where there's not been a lot of food availability. Not our kind of modern obesity. No, true. Thickalicious. Yes. Massively obese. No, not so much. No, agreed. There just weren't even people like that. But the other thing is, you know, carrying fat is a desirable thing from an evolutionary perspective.

38:35Francis Foster:To some degree, absolutely. 100%. So why is it bad for us? Yeah. There's a bunch of reasons. One is it's actually being fat is quite bad, but getting fat is really bad. Because when you're getting fat, you're having excessive calories put into you. And it means the amount of fats and oftentimes carbohydrates in your blood gets really high. And high blood fats cause a lot of cardiovascular problems. They clog up the arteries, like in the literal sense many times. And then high degrees of carbohydrate in the blood sustainably, both are directly deleterious to various structures. Like having a high glucose amount in the blood vessels close to your eyes makes you go blind.

39:18All of a sudden, crazy shit. And also it causes you to slowly over time get really bad at managing the glucose and it causes you to be diabetic. And then so that's one of the main ways in which obesity hurts you. But when you have lots of fat cells, there's another way in which it hurts you. The fat cells secrete a bunch of different hormones. And those hormones affect how the rest of your body works. Most of those effects are not good. Fat is not, we used to think fat was kind of like an inert tissue. like it just sat there and you put away calories into it and it just sat there it has a ton of hormonal effects along axes of the rest of the body and it really f***s you up in a bunch of ways there's another way in which it's bad high degrees chronic high calorie loads and being a very very obese both cause a massive increase in total body systemic inflammation and that low grade chronic inflammation for lack of a better term i'm no medical doctor just f***s everything up.

40:18And so all of those effects combined, and probably about 10 others I haven't mentioned, leads to obesity being real bad. So it's literally like if you draw out a diagram, it's tons of different vectors from all places. Some of those vectors go to other causes and then they indirectly go in. And if the big circle in the middle is health, then it's just from all angles of attack, obesity is bad. I haven't even talked about the joint stuff you were referring to earlier. If you are very overweight, it ends up being, first of all, you have lower levels of physical activity almost always because it's just harder to move around.

40:51Lower physical activity by itself is very bad for your health. So that's already a big problem. And obviously the orthopedic concerns, when you have hips, especially knees, human ankles tend to be pretty good at what they do. So they don't often just snap, but people who have been overweight for a long time, also low in activity, their knees just go straight to hell. And like, we're getting there. We will be with AI getting to where joint replacements are super easy to do. But like, you guys know people who've gone through joint replacement surgery. It's not like you're not waving the flag after that, Cheryl.

41:22I can't wait to go skiing again. I broke my arm.

41:24Francis Foster:It's not something I want to do again. So I imagine a joint replacement is a little bit more uncomfortable. 100%. And a part of what seems to cause either arthritis or arthritic-like ailments is the systemic inflammation. So if you have any proneness to arthritis and you happen to be obese, you now have way more proneness for it. And if you have arthritis and you are obese and the doctor says, eat less, move more, you're like, move more, fuck that. That's not happening. And then eat less. Where the hell am I going to go? And then eat less is good advice in the technical sense of like, it's not wrong.

41:56But when people don't arm you with the advice of how to choose foods that can keep you full and at the same time can keep the calories nice and low and provide all the nutrition you need, just eat less turns into real shitty advice because you're like, okay, cut the McDonald's cheeseburger in half, eat that half. They're like, I'm still hungry. Okay, I'll start tomorrow and eat the other half. So a lot of times the kind of treatment people get at doctor's offices is phenomenal and super helpful. And a lot of times it's, they're just kind of like, yeah, some kind of stuff to watch out for. And the doctor checks his clock because there's 15 minutes left.

42:27There's one minute left with you and he has this next patient, 15 minutes. Off you go. I don't want to say I'm blaming doctors for this though, because they get, doctors get a lot of shit. And in the comment section, no doubt there'll be horror stories about how terrible doctors are about nutrition. The thing is, for as long as I can remember, doctors almost always will tell you when your weight is out of the chart bounds and that you should control it and bring it back. Are they nutritionists? No. Have they ignored the problem of obesity? Absolutely not. Here's another fun, contentious thing.

42:56I love being on the show, by the way, because I could just say shit without... You guys won't get offended. Also, English people don't get offended at much. One of the big things that many people have been looking for in obesity and in health is one external cause to fucking just blame. Like seed oils, no offense to seed oils, people. You guys are great. Artificial sweeteners, additives, big pharmas somewhere in there with their top hats and their canes doing something bad to children. I don't know. And if we can just blame this one thing and remove it, we can still eat whatever we want. We can just not have an exercise routine.

43:37We cannot take care of our sleep health and all that Andrew Huberman shit. Stop scrolling on your phone. Close your eyes. Make a dark room. All that stuff. Wake up on time. And because we've excised this one external factor, these aliens come down to Earth and they like do the scanning of our water. They're like, oh, you guys have hydrochloropeptide in here. And they get it out and everyone's like, whoo. They just like get healthy and awesome. Hair grows back. The reality is the vast majority of the reason why people who become obese haven't reduced their obesity, there are many, many reasons.

44:08The vast majority of it is that giving a f*** factor is just real low. People just don't care enough. And it's so weird to say because you're like blaming the victim. I don't know if there's any victims in obesity because like Cheetos are not like a gun with the smoke coming out. You're also holding the gun. That's kind of weird. but it's really strange position to have to tell people you know it's not the poison in your water it's not the fact that mega food corporations are like oh man if we just get everyone obese then dot dot dot profit i don't know how that works it's the fact that when you go to the store and you're feeling like eating something tasty you don't give a shit and you buy the stuff that's tasty and someone's like what about the calories and you're like they've done a bunch of different studies, actually one in New York, New Jersey area, where they had calorie labels on fast food and then no calorie labels, very good control.

45:00Almost no effect for almost everyone.

45:03Francis Foster:Really? Oh, yeah. That's so interesting because it does affect me. When I look at it, I'm like, okay, well, you know, this is, if I eat this, this is like two thirds of my daily intake. Maybe I shouldn't. And look at how you look. Sassy. Well, thank you. Although I'm scared now. But... Good, good. It's healthy. The point you made, though, I think about the food system, I can see logically how people make those conclusions because if people are fatter, they're going to eat more calories. And if they eat more calories, they spend more money on food. And therefore, do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, I honestly, I do see what you're saying.

45:34I think that food company executives are not as strategic and Machiavellian and fourth order thinkers as people think. A lot of times the opposite is true, where they actually mostly look at like quarterly earnings reports. That's how the real business world works at scale. And if you make a bunch of super awesome obese food, obesogenic food, people get fat, your corporation might not even be around in that next generation to profit off of that. As a matter of fact, if you think about economically, you're cross-subsidizing your competitors. Like, your competitors could never want to make people fat.

46:11They say, yeah, we don't want to make people fat. But then fat people still eat more food, so they get in and benefit off your shit, whereas you're paying the cost to make people fat. And then you also have to, I guess, sell to people again. It might not quite add up. What I think is happening is as simple as this. Food corporations try to sell you a bunch of different stuff. and some combination of things that are, for the average consumer, very reasonably priced, very delicious, end up just people just buying more. McDonald's and all the other restaurants and fast food have experimented with a bunch of different healthy menu options over the years.

46:42I mean, like, dozens. Yes. And most of them, like, first flight.

46:44Francis Foster:I remember when the salads came in, I've never seen anyone eat a salad in McDonald's. Bro, like, what is that even for? Because here's the thing, McDonald's and all these other systems, like these food systems, these restaurants, They're very evidence-based and very logical and have crazy supply chains. And they have like a stack in their menu. Like it's regional, but there's an average stack. There's like 20 items they can offer you. And their kitchen doesn't support the economics of 25 items. They could just, all of these are a waste, right? So if there's a stack of 20 items, they look at purely at ROI, like return on investment.

47:15So everything has a place in the stack. If you throw a fucking salad in there and it stacks out at like what would be number 40, like you're the salad division product manager and you go to the meeting with the boss like later that month he's like how are salads doing you're like well according to the numbers nobody gives a he's like like what is he supposed to do what is he supposed to lose his job to stand up for salad because if mcdonald's quarterly earnings go down they're going to look and be like where can we save money like well i know nobody buys the salad they're like all right johnson you got a promotion no more salad it a lot of the healthy food at fast food restaurants is like super well intentioned Here's the thing.

47:50Capitalism. We're all capitalists here, yeah? Venezuelan, you love communism, right? Yeah. Of course. Yeah, at least a great way to lose weight. It is very. Even the zoo animals didn't have trouble until people started breaking into eating them. You know about that? Yeah, during the more recent Venezuelan starvation episode, people were breaking into the zoo to eat the animals. It's like real f***ed. Yeah. Yeah. Being from Russia.

48:12Francis Foster:That was a fun little interjection of just depressing historical realities. I am Russian, right? It's all in there. Yeah. The fundamental situation is food companies are just trying to do their best to give you whatever the hell it is you're going to buy. and because capitalism is accurately construed as greed motivated greed in the best way i think for us if we were a little left of center be the most evil thing in the world um greed motivates you to do anything to get the dollar right anything which means that companies don't care to make you obese and as a matter of fact it's bad vibes for them to do anything to you that you won't like in the short term or the long term.

49:04McDonald's does not want the PR of people turning around and being like, you've fucking poisoned me for 20 years. They don't want that shit. But what they want is money. And the easiest way for them to get money is to be like, Francis, what do you really want? And you're like, number five with extra large fries. And they're like, what the fuck? What are we supposed to do? Not give him what he wants? It's our job as a corporation to do what this man wants. Give him the extra fries. And that's it. That is my Occam's razor for why the food system is the way it is. Because most people don't give a shit.

49:34They just like tasty things. And also I've been a personal trainer for a long time. I run a huge fitness company. I used to be a college professor for a long time, teaching people how to be personal trainers, talking to just like tons and tons of real people in the real world. And real people in the real world are beautiful, awesome, amazing in 50 different ways. But they just fundamentally, for the most part, don't give a shit about what goes in their bodies. You guys, let's walk around New York. You're going to look at people eating all kinds of stuff. Have you really thought through this pretzel, they're like, what?

50:01Hey, get out of here. You know, typical Yorker shit. And if you can get people to give a shit, the food corporations will pivot as quickly as possible. McDonald's corporate, they so much as sniff out a health food phase, they got 10 candidate items and menus across the country the next month. It's a McDonald's test kitchen. They're cooking up batches. They don't care. McDonald's in two years could be a health food store if mass amounts of global and American people demanded in the economic sense of, I have the money and I'm willing to give it to you so you give me this. Every company with Pepsi wouldn't make a single sugary beverage ever again.

50:39It would all be artificially sweetened. They don't care. Can you imagine like being in charge of PepsiCo and one of your interns is like, people are buying more diet soda and less sugar. They're like, you're like, take a drink of your scotch. You're like, my father didn't build this company to make sugar farmers bankrupt. roll the regular sugar in. They're going to do that. They don't care. In the most sociopathic way, they don't care. But also in the coolest way, they don't care. They're going to give you what you want. It just so happens to be that most Americans and people around the world, they just want cheaper food.

51:09They want it to be tasty. So for health food people watching this, if you make your health foods cheaper and you make them really tasty and they have lower calories and they make you really full, you're going to make a lot of money and you're going to help a ton of people. But the idea that like people are really health conscious and just trying their best when they just get fooled by these advertisements for megacorpions. Fuck my face. Advertisements never made me eat McDonald's. It's that smell that you drive by and you're like, what the hell's in there? I want it all.

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52:51You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen. Snacks. A stapler? The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started. See paypal.com slash protection terms. It's a great point. And I'm actually really glad that you brought up the term Big Pharma, because when we come to America, we notice the suspicion around Big Pharma. Nobody ever goes, you know who's great? Big Pharma.

53:33It's always like awkward cocktail party banter. Yeah, exactly. And it's just and the moment people start getting a tad conspiratorial, which you love to do in this country, let's be fair. Nonsense. You drop in Big Pharma. So why the suspicion around big pharma? And what's really going on here?

53:55Man, there are legitimate critiques of big pharma, most of them having to do with big pharma's cozy, though sometimes necessary, relationship with government and making various regulatory structures exceedingly complex so that little pharma can't compete. that serves big pharma well in the game-theoretic locked-in landscape of like, well, we can't really deregulate. So if there are going to be regulators, we might as well grease them up to our advantage, which every industry does. Big anything means that the big players who got there earlier, the Pfizers, the etc., they have lawyers and other people and Washington lobbyists who are going to look at smaller upstart competitors and be like, Can we get the legal system kind of to reflect that so those people don't, like, fuck up our profit stream?

54:44That happens for sure. We can blame Big Pharma for some of that. I happen to be from a very highly free market school of economic thought myself for my dilettante bullshit pretend economics that I don't actually know. But I place most of the blame in the hands of government. because if you're going to have ultra powerful government with ultra heavy handed regulation, you as a major corporation can either go in there and be like, hey, do this. Or you can just sit around and be like, we'll just be happily regulated by whoever goes in there and says that first. You know, like back in the Soviet days, I point to you as if you and I lived in like the 50s or some.

55:19Like if you weren't ratting people out, they was ratting you out. And so it's like whoever gets the reins of communist power first, that's kind of who's there. So I don't blame the corporations as much as I do government for that, for sure. They do have some blame, 100%. And so some of that is, I think, rightfully assigned. And that concludes my anti-Big Pharma rant and begins my much more impassioned pro-Big Pharma rant. I'm maybe one of the only people in the world, certainly who has YouTube followers or whatever, that is super pro-Big Pharma. I think everyone's actually pro-Big Pharma when the pressure is high enough.

55:56like imagine going to the hospital and you're like your arm bone is like out i can see it my man

56:02Francis Foster:it's fun right you're like oh cool it wasn't out but but it was like that oh it's also even more disturbing but it's under the skin you're like that's not how my arm's supposed to look and imagine you're like agonizing pain and the nurse is like we're going to give you something for the pain you're like hold on hold on does big pharma make it and she's like yeah man keep that out of my body. Oh, my man. It starts getting infected. And they're like, we have antibiotics for you. And you're like, big pharma again? Like, yes, that's correct, sir. You're like, nope. And then there you die in agony after hours and days of having ooze on your arm and it goes up through your brain and then you die.

56:40No one's actually against big pharma when it comes down to it because big pharma makes revolutionary medications that keep all of us not infected, free of pain when we need to be do they up every now and again yeah hell yeah they screw up all the

56:55Francis Foster:time like every fallible human institution yeah but i guess mike the suspicion is um for for some people and i think it's not unmerited is for example what we saw during the pandemic right it's like let's vaccinate the kids when everyone knows there's no point vaccinating kids against covet right at least that was my perception that was my view so the sense that the profit motive of drives them to over-prescribe things. Pharma doesn't prescribe anything doctors do. And doctors do not directly, they do not directly profit from prescribing more medications. That is a huge myth. Nobody, I know a ton of doctors, my wife's a medical doctor, does not like you write a bunch of scripts and go, hey, good job this month, here's money.

57:35That just straight up doesn't happen. The oversight for that is massive, by the way. Now, when your people coming to your patients want a lot of drugs, you can be a doctor that's like, well, like, hold on, let's wait and see how this evolves. How many antibiotics and pain pills do you need? If you had like a smoking gun of pharma really very massively influencing doctors to write more prescriptions, as far as I've seen, that's just almost, if not just completely, just not there. It's just not there.

58:04Francis Foster:What about the example I gave about, look, my view was that vaccines were massively overprescribed during the pandemic to loads of people who didn't need them. Did you think that's an unfair take? I think most of the, I think it's a fair take. I think most of the people who in the public health space wanted everyone to have a vaccine weren't so much concerned about everyone needing the vaccine. They were concerned about spreading. And so Junior comes home from elementary school. He's fine, but he coughs on grandma and grandma crows. But there wasn't much evidence for that, right? There wasn't.

58:33But these people typically who are in the public health community, and let's just call it what it is, like leftist Karen women. Like, come on, that's who shares all the pro-vaccine shit on Facebook. they're incredibly neurotic and incredibly risk averse and so if they say like okay one extra you guys see this like advertisement bullshit like even one life lost is a tragedy which is so true but also from a policy perspective like you can't just think like that because it's always trade off and it's like all of our freedoms as long as to save everyone no one really believes that so we can get past that I think those people are more concerned about getting everyone vaccinated so we could have completely crushed COVID out of existence, which was probably more likely than not at some point.

59:20But it turned out, you know, vaccines were profoundly effective. Vaccines probably on aggregate, as far as I can tell, saved about 20 million lives around the world, which is like several holocausts worth of lives. Depends who you ask, Martin. Yes, well, in my view, it never happened anyway. Also, vaccines aren't real and birds are robots. Yeah, this is going down the whole wormhole. Uh, so yes, that's not a dependable unit to some. Um, so vaccines are on net aggregate really, really good. Um, and I don't think that there was much push from big pharma to over prescribe vaccines. I think that PR wise, big pharma can't afford emails to people that even hint at like that.

1:00:02One whistleblower gets out on an email that the Pfizer CEO was like, let's push these vaccines and a little bit of the wrong way. dude Pfizer stock the whole thing goes they have to be very very easy but I've tried to talk to higher level pharma people and it's basically like talking to James Bond what do you do for a living they're like what do I not do I gotta get the out of here they're very not transparent mostly because like everything is insanely litigious and there's a huge PR situation did a lot of Americans on the left want everyone forcibly vaccinated yes you want someone to blame I'd be blaming them on the farmers.

1:00:39Francis Foster:No, I'm happy blaming them. They might have a little bit of blame. I just don't think it's a huge factor. So it's interesting to me because based on what you've described, you must, I can't imagine you'd be super aligned with what the current health government, the health department and RFK are talking about. That doesn't sound like, because he's talking about changing the food structure, which you don't seem to be too concerned about. And likewise with vaccines, you know, I get a different sense from you. I think vaccines are one of the pinnacle achievements of mankind. And if vaccines have side effects, which they do, and are sometimes deleterious, which they are, and they sometimes kill people, which they do.

1:01:18But what kills more people, COVID or any of the COVID vaccines? Well, the Russian Sputnik vaccine, who knows what the hell it did, right? And the Chinese vaccine that like people took, but never did anything like that. Moderna, Pfizer, all the top tier US-based vaccines, they are like any drug, will save and help most people. Some people will have very mixed results. And a few people, though a few in a sample of 100, in a sample of the entire United States, we're talking about tens of thousands of people, will have very bad outcomes. But on the aggregate, vaccines are phenomenal. Should we be force vaccinating people, there's a very interesting discussion.

1:01:59There are ways in which that discussion turns into a yes. If there was a confirmed viral strain confirmed that came out of India or some that had a 50 % on contact within two days death rate and a virality 10 times that of COVID and someone in the US said, don't force vaccinations, I'd be like, I'm coming to your house. I'm going to go to India real quick. I'm a cough on your bitch ass. The body here. State of emergency, flat out. Um, during World War II, freedom of speech took a little bit of a hit because like you could be a Nazi spy. We're fighting a global war. It's real. In the context of the real situation of COVID and the context of most vaccines, I think the tradeoff of giving government that much power versus the actual effect that you're going to modulate is much more in the direction of let's not do mandatory forced anything.

1:02:48You know, so I'm super at the same time aligned with not anti, but more vaccine skeptical people on the limitations on government power. In almost all cases, except for super psychotic germ from India case, I'm super against mandatory kind of anything really. For sure, mandatory vaccinations we had in Russia, actually. And my parents pulled my sister and I out of school that day because this is real fun for people who don't know. They would vaccinate children with the same needle. Okay, the same needle, not like the same syringe, but the cap, no, the same literal needle. And this was like in the late 80s when AIDS was getting to be a real party.

1:03:27And so like that, yeah, like that is like bone chilling. All that. No, thanks. But at the same time, should we be recognizing that vaccines are incredibly powerful and we should be aiming to make them better over time and more efficient and less deleterious? Yeah, 100%.

1:03:43Francis Foster:I guess what I'm asking is, are you excited or are you concerned about RFK being in charge of everything that's going on in this country with health? Or both at the same time, maybe? I'm curious. I'm curious. I don't know what he's going to do. There's kind of a term in kind of geopolitics war strategy of see what leaders do, not what they say. Because, like, you know, if you just looked at what people said, Trump would be like, what the hell? There's an actual leader. He'd like to do some good stuff, you know? And so with like RFK, I kind of want to see what they kind of crap out. For me, I think on the aggregate, the new administration, especially Doge, I fuck with Doge so goddamn hard.

1:04:28Minimizing the size of government, cleaning out a ton of bureaucracy and waste, massively deregulating the economy. It's just like things are pretty much like economically, like objectively correct things to do that just a lot of people on the left have a lot of feelings about. for some goddamn reason. I think that's so wonderful that the inclusion of RFK, who I think is genuinely a really, really good person who gives a shit and wants to help people in that administration, to me, is kind of like, all right, let's see what he does. But if he comes out hard against vaccines, he's just going to be in the wrong.

1:04:57Like, hopefully, it doesn't hurt a bunch of people. It's not likely that it will. If he comes after the food system, like, they've been doing that for years anyway. It's not that it's going to do tons of damage. It's just, like, a lot of money spent towards something has almost no effect, where if you actually empowered, so here's how I would handle this whole thing. If I was RFK, I would just do all that cool Kennedy shit, you know, Epstein's Island. First Epstein's Island. I need a refill for my soul, and then work. The first thing, Epstein's Island does work. I'll shut up. I stopped. I have like a stack of 80 Epstein's Island jokes that just come in.

1:05:29You fellas have been to the island. You know how it is, right?

1:05:31Francis Foster:Well, no, that's success for my... You massively are a risk to me. A wealth of success, my friend. I wanted to go. I got my application rejected. Like, try again next year. I would say massively deregulate the pharmaceutical industry. Massively. And have just one really easy law. If you are a consenting adult and your doctor approves a prescription, you can try any testing phase medication you want. Like, do you own your body or does the government own your body? Want to find out which one it is? Try to take a drug from a manufacturer that hasn't passed all stages of FDA trials yet. You're going to go to jail and stuff.

1:06:09is my body. And as a consenting adult with doctor's approval, if I can take a drug from any manufacturer, then it turns out I have really great results. They get a ton of data studying brave young people. I'm not young anymore. God damn it. Where's my hair? So it's going to be a huge win-win. And then in addition to that, the deregulation of the space brings in a load of competition and a ton of money, software money and shit like that. And then with AI, you have this incredible wave, which will happen anyway. It'll just happen a few years later with the current FDA, of insane innovation that makes medications orders of magnitude cheaper, more effective, and less side effect prone.

1:06:50That's the answer. More pharma, more technology, more intervention of the human body. That is the way to get pharma to do the right stuff. As far as overall US health, we have that one big problem. People like to eat a ton of high calorie tasty people like to eat it how do you go about that imagine having a a real drive policy-wise in the uk to get the motherfuckers up north to stop drinking pints every night what you're gonna do you're gonna be like this has calories he's gonna be like oh sweet um it's bad for you cool everyone dies anyway what you got what you got left at some point you got to be like you can't drink this anymore it's illegal we already know how prohibition works it's not fun like back alley beer dealers we don't want that shit again.

1:07:36As a free society in a free world, we have to understand that we have to try our best to help everybody. But at the same time, when people just kind of want to do their fucking shit and pay the cost health-wise, we just got to be like, this is what they're going to do. And you can gingerly educate them. You can tell them. But heavy-handed government regulation, restructuring the food system, all this shit, it's some combination of doesn't work, waste a lot of money, and just kind of antithetical to the principles of liberty, which is like, You want to eat french fry cigarettes and smoke them at the same time?

1:08:05Rock on, I'll light it for you. I don't think you should be doing that, but you're the one paying the cost. And freedom is a motherfucker, man. Being sleep deprived messes with everything. Reaction time, memory, decision making, even your emotions. It's like walking around legally drunk. And the long term effects, just as bad as smoking. Most people reach for melatonin. But here's the problem. Melatonin is a hormone. And most supplements give you doses 10 to 50 times higher than your body naturally produces. That's why you wake up groggy. Your sleep gets worse over time and your body stops making melatonin on its own.

1:08:43That's why I use Evening Being by Verso. It's melatonin free using clinically studied ingredients to help you fall asleep faster, stay asleep longer and get more deep end REM sleep without messing with your hormones. I've been taking it myself, and honestly, I'm falling asleep faster, and my mind actually switches off at night, which used to be a battle. Shut it. Of course it did. Head to ver.so and use code TRIGGER to get 15 % off your first order, or click the link in the description. That's ver.so, code TRIGGER. And I think there's one element that we haven't spoken about, which is the element of misinformation.

1:09:31And I actually find it really worrying, Mike, when I'm in this country and I talk to people and they bring up vaccines and I try and be open because I'm very pro-vaccination. Careful, you're disgusting.

1:09:46Francis Foster:I have friends who are very vaccine skeptical. I don't mean the COVID vaccine. I mean vaccines, I guess. And I don't have the language to win that argument. And I thought that what happened during the pandemic was bad, among other reasons, for that reason. Because it discredited vaccines that do work where the trade-offs are absolutely worth it. 100%. And we've lost the language for it. Hashtag trust the science. Yeah. But that's a very important, and that's another part of it. But the thing that I find really worrying, Mike, and it's not even a topic of conversation because the study was discredited.

1:10:25And these are intelligent people we talk to where they go, well, you know, the vaccines cause autism. And I'm like, what? Are we still having this conversation here? And that's really worrying for me. And it's sad because people are allowing misinformation to dictate the choices not only over their body, but over their children's bodies.

1:10:46Francis Foster:Is it true that there's no link between vaccines and autism? Yes, like hasn't been debated in a generation. If you want to say there's a link between vaccines and autism, you have like an enormous hill to climb by just looking at, you know, like you liked a girl back in middle school and you were trying to look for signs of how she interacted with you, that she likes you. And every sign is like she hates you and you're a creep, but you're trying to like, but that one time she didn't yell at me too much. Maybe it's because she loves me. that's the uphill battle that like vaccine skeptics for the autism thing have um it's it's it's also a really weird random hill to die on because if you said like you know certain kinds of vaccines cause various immune function abnormalities like you have a few decent studies 10 studies that say the other thing but you got something the autism thing was just like almost whole cloth like folks who have like here's the thing if you have an autistic child especially severely autistic i think there's nothing I can say in a podcast that's going to be charitable enough to how even the words here are difficult to kind of calibrate how big of a challenge you have and how much of a necessity there may be for finding someone to blame.

1:12:02And I feel that a thousand percent. That much resentment and anger is two things. One hundred percent understandable and occasionally vented at the wrong thing. And I think the vaccines thing was just super convenient. You know, it was like big crime happens and every criminal runs away and there's just some dupe on the corner. Police show up like, who the f*** are you? And it's vaccines with autism. He's like, I was just having a Coke. They baton the s*** out of him, drag him into the car. That's vaccines and autism. Do we know, are cases of autism rising?

1:12:33Francis Foster:And do we know why that is? If it is happening? It's a complex issue. We know one of the predominant reasons, not the only reason, is increased awareness. increased use of proper diagnostic criteria there's another thing with autism that's more curious uh jesus you guys are dragging all the politically incorrect out of me i swear to god i'm getting canceled yeah like you fiendishly smile like yes yes more we've slagged off fat people i mean now we're getting to the good oh boy so there has been a recent very profound rise of autism, I say mostly actually diagnoses, but even more claimed diagnoses because there are a lot of folks that have a high degree of neuroticism, a high degree of social interaction phobia, mostly because either they are genetically just more prone to be introverted and a little bit neurotic and or because growing up they had negative socialization experiences with other children and middle school you know like middle school just really you in the ass for lack of a better term like you were awkward looking or something i did not mean to look at you there's only two of you who am i supposed to play um and uh you know you just kind of had a bad time and it kind of made you go into your shell you know and that um experience also of bullying and being physically intimidated makes you neurotic, makes you misinterpret or be very difficult with facial expressions.

1:14:04Like some people don't have the confidence to look someone in the eyes as they talk to them. If they've been beaten the shit enough and made fun of enough in their lives and they're already genetically more neurotic and more introverted, zero autism, by the way. They're perfectly fluid with humor. They understand every joke. They get offended. Here's the thing is autistic people just almost never really get offended because they don't really have a concept for how that works. you're like hey like you don't belong here they're like okay we just fucked off you're like okay and so those folks that have been basically kind of bullied had a bad time in childhood and are not super pro-social um even though they want to be and they can read all the signals they have been both misdiagnosed lately a ton as autistic and have themselves self-diagnosed there's almost like a bit of a pride with autistic diagnoses nowadays like with all diagnoses now Of course, yeah.

1:14:55You guys know the YouTube channel Jubilee? It's a great channel. They have all the people come together and it's like one gay dude rates 20 people who claim to be gay as gay or not. Then they find out later, everyone comes out, that sort of thing. And they had a bunch of them with autism and like who's autistic and who's not. They had autistic people rate, which is extra hilarious because they're like, I don't, I can't figure this out for myself. And a lot of people, it seems like they really identify with like their grade on like autism type whatever. And it seems like this in community. There's also that the Hollywood left thing made neurodivergent cool.

1:15:30I fucking can't stand that term because all neurological and psychological qualities are rather normally distributed. There's no such thing as the average person. It's a statistical abstraction. It's like everyone's different. And so let's say I'm neurodivergent. It's like, well, neurodivergent how? Like I don't score as neurodivergent on any tests, but I'm a weird fucking asshole. And you're like, that guy's definitely something. Everyone's something. So the whole term of neurodivergence has, by some people in the sort of Hollywood peripheral left, which obviously spreads to a lot of the rest of the world, has been planted as the seed of like, hey, you're special somehow.

1:16:05And all these other things about yourself you don't really love, it's because of this one thing. But it's a cool thing and it's new and you're awesome and you're really like, I don't know, like Albert Einstein because he is maybe sort of autistic. And all of a sudden they're like, yeah. And so actually autistic people, their levels may or may not be rising, but if they're rising, it's probably not very high and probably due mostly to actual diagnoses. Because you're like, you guys know, like, we didn't have a term for autism back like 100 years ago. They were still autistic people. They were just labeled categories that I'm not allowed to say on public YouTube, like very bad words for people that are bad words because they used to be labeled for those.

1:16:42So better diagnostic criteria is mostly explanation, but there is this other cohort of people that are either claiming to be autistic and they're not, or diagnosed by maybe not so diligent psychotherapists as autistic, when in reality, they're really just some combination of introverted and neurotic and sometimes from genetic perspectives or variables. and other times just because they had a really bad time growing up and you get bullied your entire life. You don't look at people the same way. Jokes are awkward. Everything is uncomfortable. You do a lot of this stuff and it has nothing to do with autism.

1:17:13And so those people, I think now some of those people have grouped themselves into autistic because it's kind of a new cool thing to do. A very similar thing has occurred with the trans situation.

1:17:27Francis Foster:It sucks. Well, no, we can't let him go on that. anti-trans advocate Mike Isretel. Thank you so much. Well, no. So I guess the real question I wanted to ask you before we wrap up, because we've been dancing around, is what's the answer at an individual level to the fact that we've never had this amount of incredibly tasty, available, cheap food ever? How do we deal with that? Two answers. Great question. Number one is look into all of the new pharmaceuticals coming out, because they're unbelievable. It's probably true to say that the modern weight loss drugs, you guys have heard of Ozempic and all that stuff.

1:18:07It's probably true to say that it's better for most people to be taking it than not taking it. It's damn near a health elixir. I'm not kidding. I'll get a lot of shit out of that.

1:18:15Francis Foster:Come on, that's not typical, let's be honest, right? Usually, you mentioned yourself, there's trade-offs with everything. There are trade-offs with Ozempic. There are trade-offs with Trisepatide, a new drug coming out soon called Ritatratide as trade-offs as well. But actually, the trade-offs are diminishing and the positive effects are escalating. And so the trade-offs do exist, but they're massively in the positive favor. If you're obese or just for everyone? Especially if you're obese, but maybe low doses for most people. Okay, that's great. That sounds pretty great, right? So tell us more about that.

1:18:45Francis Foster:Yeah, yeah. So if you look through the literature on the effects of these drugs, the primary way by which most of them work is they just reduce your food consumption, so you lose weight, and then the weight loss kicks off tons of health benefits. But it turns out these drugs have anti, profound anti-inflammatory effects, psychological effects where they actually make you calmer. They reduce all kinds of noise in your head, not just food noise, and can make you less addiction prone. A lot of people quit smoking on these drugs just because they didn't feel like smoking anymore, and tons and tons of benefits.

1:19:15They're still finding every few months more and more benefits of these drugs. The costs are pretty well known and pretty well understood. Some GI stuff, if you take it wrong. Some people it just doesn't meld with. Some people actually have increased probability of having depression after taking these drugs. That's a little bit more complex because sometimes they kind of the only happy thing in their lives is tasty food and the food doesn't taste the same anymore. And so that happens. But on aggregate, these drugs are super special and magical because they seem to be net beneficial for most people and especially for people that are overweight.

1:19:45There are new drugs coming out all the time. I would say look into them if you're trying to lose weight because like well they were designed to help you and they're really awesome use them that's part one part two is you might consider getting a little bit of an education about how nutrition works about how physical fitness works but the best place to get an education for that now is my youtube channel and no i'm kidding also that's fine if you like really weird humor and bald people um just talk to any ai um i would say google Gemini is probably the worst because it's so filtered by social justice warriors that it's actually not even that smart.

1:20:21I use ChatGPT from OpenAI. I think it's like drinking from an infinite well of knowledge. It's the greatest thing that ever happened. Grok, Elon's shit, is awesome. You just talk to GPTs and ask them, like, what should I be eating and how should I be working out in order to get some decent results and help me now that I'm taking this medication? It's going to hook you up like crazy. And so, yes, take the medications. They're amazing. but also if you really want to make a change, you're not ducking personal responsibility. It's just not going to happen. Figure out what you need to know, hire a personal trainer, go look at some websites, download some fitness apps and make a commitment to yourself to say, I'm going to do this thing and it's not always going to be fun, but putting my pants on in the morning isn't fun.

1:21:02I want to walk around with my dick out. The authorities continue to tell me that's misunderstanding. It's bad. You're going to have to do some not so fun stuff, but you're going to pay it forward because years and months even later, you're going to look better. You're going to feel better. You're going to be healthier. So yes, big pharma is awesome. And it's super, super great that it's coming. And in a few years, there'll be even better drugs, drugs for muscle building are on the horizon. They're already on testing. Wonderful stuff. Yes to big pharma, but a lot of people have this big pharma versus individual responsibility.

1:21:32It's both. Yes, you can take the drugs and you can go to the store and instead of getting a bag of Cheetos, you can get a bag of apples. I know the apples kind of suck. You want to look good, feel good. You'd eat the apples for a few months. You feel much better. A few Cheetos here and there, a few apples. You're in a state of balance. Everything is going really well.

1:21:50Francis Foster:Before Mike answers a final question, at the end of the interview, make sure you click the link in the description, head to our sub stack where you'll see this. What advice would you give someone for the simplest route to breaking poor eating and exercise habit cycles? How is training for strength gains different than training for size gains. Now, this is a nice surprise. I'm a great fan of Dr. Mike. I hope he talks Francis into getting on the T. Oh, geez. Mike, what a pleasure it has been having you on the show. Final question, always the same. What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

1:22:27Oh, geez. The coming, I guess I'll keep it related. the coming era of wonder drugs is already upon us with these drugs.

1:22:41Francis Foster:He's not talking about fentanyl. Because that's already there. Well, sorry. My favorite drug. And it needs to be Chinese. I need the good shit. I don't need none of this fake stuff. So there's recently a pain drug that works locally and not systemically. So it works on the peripheral nerves and not the brain. And it has similar analgesic pain reduction effects to all the crazy narcotics, but zero of the addictive effects. There's actually no mechanism for you to be addicted to it. It has almost zero side effects. So wonder drugs are coming for pain. And the idea that people used to use pain drugs and then ruin their whole lives from abuse, that is gonna be something we look on in probably about 10 years and go, holy shit, we used to feed these to people?

1:23:25This is crazy. Drugs, so AI-powered drug discovery is just getting started, and it's going to lead to drugs that do crazy things, exercise mimetics. So you take a pill and almost every part of your body responds as if you were exercising for two hours a day. Like muscle drugs to help you build muscle. Why did you look at me like that? You know, build up your muscle a little bit. There'll be drugs for cosmetic effects to tighten up your skin, to make you more look youthful. There's going to be drugs for almost every amazing thing that you can't imagine are coming because AI can understand things we're barely capable of comprehending and making drugs for them with huge positive effects, very tiny negatives.

1:24:09I think preparing people for a world in which drugs aren't this thing, they're like, I should be taking fewer of them. And are more this thing of like, well, are there any drugs that are going to help me achieve what I want that are safe and effective? Looking at it more as a tool and a utility belt rather than this forbidden thing we shouldn't be taking. Clearly in the 1980s, anti-drug stuff, you know, propaganda failed with me. But I think that kind of stuff is going to be here. The good news is we don't have to be talking about it because when the amazing drugs come out and all your friends are on them, you're just going to take them and you're going to be like, this is sweet.

1:24:39But better to get to it earlier than later, I guess. Mike, an absolute pleasure. Join us on Subset where we carry on the conversations and we're going to find out the truth about vaccines and RFK. Zofa asks a great question how is training for strength games different than training for size games good question there are two big differences

1:25:50We'll see you next time. to Sweetgreen featuring fall's best dressed. Make your move. Order on the Sweetgreen app.