Why You Should Be Worried About Digital ID - Silkie Carlo

25:58Do you think part of the problem is as well for people who are ambivalent or don't really see the problems that might come with this type of documentation is the fact that they've never grown up or seen an authoritarian society. If you think the UK is the norm and that's how societies have always been then really you're not going to see the impending threat of authoritarianism at your door are you maybe but we lived through covid didn't we so i mean we kind of have lived through some a kind of uh type of authoritarianism but i think there's something else i think there's something that that speaks directly to um british culture here and about the way that we we do actually cherish liberty and freedom.

26:45And in a way, whilst we do have the fight of our lives on our hands in terms of getting rid of digital ID, what's quite encouraging is that millions of people have said, no, we see this for what it is. We don't trust the government. We don't carry papers and we won't be carrying digital IDs. And it's because we have never been a population that lives on licence to authorities. The authorities work for us. We don't have to prove ourselves to anyone unless we've done something wrong. And that's the kind of whole notion that underpins our society of the, you know, the free born Englishman that just we just live our lives freely until we incur on someone else's freedom.

27:23Other countries that have IDs are countries that have more like permission based systems of rule and law that we don't have. We have common law freedoms. And so I do think as it is, you know, Keir Starmer has united the public, but just not at all in the way that he thought. Actually, he's united the public against him. He's managed to tap into national values by demonstrating his complete misunderstanding of them. But do you think as well, how much of this do you think, Silky, is a government? They've been in power just over a year. It's a complete shambles. I mean, people are quite open. This is one of the worst, most incompetent governments.

28:02I mean, even worse than many of the Tory governments. How much of this do you think is a government realising they don't have any power and they're going to do whatever they can to hold on to what little power they have left? It does seem like a very desperate power grab. But I'm not sure that it will ever see, you know, if we're successful, certainly, I don't know that we'll ever see the light of day. What really worries me about it is that it seems to suggest that there are people around Starmer that have an enormous amount of influence that's unchecked. Anyone in Westminster, I'm pretty sure anyone in the country could have heard this idea put on the table and said, don't do that.

28:44Don't do that. Now, you're just on the back of a summer of scandals. You've got the lowest approval ratings of any prime minister for decades, I think. And now you want to introduce something, a requirement on every single member of the public, something that affects each and every one of our lives, that millions of people won't be able to have, you know, just every single ingredient for it. You've also got the historical echoes of Blair, the five billion pounds of public money that was wasted on the biometric ID scheme two decades ago. Starman would have to be absolutely insane to put this down on the table now, and yet he has.

29:27So clearly there's a political judgment failure, but it suggests that there are people around him who have managed to convince him that this is a good idea. And of course, we mentioned the Tony Blair Institute. There's also Labour Together, a think tank that was a pro-Stama think tank that's very influential. And big tech funding that swims around those think tanks and institutions from companies that would stand to earn many, many, many, many millions of pounds from being involved in a mandatory digital ID system. So to me, and I think many others, this does smack of big tech lobbying, basically, against all rational political judgment.

30:14It's very, very hard to think of any other reason that this would be pushed at this point in time. Even Andy Burnham, who was the ID cards minister under Blair, has said that this is he doesn't support this and this is the wrong time. And this this is a really bad idea.

30:35Francis Foster:Well, one of the things we've done, and by the way, I've never heard you talk as much about politicians as critically because you're someone who's apolitical and you really try and stay out of it. And one thing I really do want to emphasize is how much this is not a left right issue. And the example that I always give to people is if you are on the left and you believe that the evil Farage is about to take over and ruin everything, why on earth would you want to give him and his party this much power to monitor and control what people say and do and where they go? The idea that you would recognise that there's a political system in which your political opponents will at some point be in charge, and you give them this sort of power over your lives, this doesn't make any sense to me.

31:22It's an utter madness. There are very, very few issues in this country that could unite Jeremy Corbyn and Nigel Farage, and ID cards is one of them. The left of the Labour Party. If we look at who the kind of political sands on this, the left of the Labour Party, the Greens, Lib Dems, Reform, Conservatives, SNP, Plaid, everyone pretty much except Starmer and Starmerites are against the digital ID proposal. so yeah it's dead in the water the problem is from a public point of view the problem is that of course the numbers that they've got in parliament mean that almost certainly this will survive a commons vote and so despite the fact that absolutely no one wants this there is a real real real risk that this will pass into law in the next couple of years

32:16Francis Foster:So what can we do right now I mean the petition I haven't checked it as of this morning We're recording this a few days before it goes out. I imagine it's over well over two million now. There's well over two million people have signed the official government, the petition on the government website. We have a petition that has over 100 ,000 signatures. So, yeah, combined, we're probably looking at towards three million signatures on a petition against. And I think now is a time for people, for anyone who cares about this issue, for anyone that doesn't want to be having to carry a QR code, a digital barcode in order to live their lives.

32:56If you don't want your children to do that, if you want to have any semblance of a free and open society, now is a time to stand up and be counted. It's really not a time to sit out. and so I'd ask anyone who cares about this to support groups like Big Brother Watch, join the campaign, sign up for our newsletters on this because this is just the beginning and it's going to be a bit of a rocky couple of years. Campaigners have done it before. If you think about during the Blair years, this was introduced, I mean digital ideas are introduced every couple of years on the pretext of something or other but a couple of decades ago this was on the pretext of counter-terrorism And Blair was a massively popular prime minister.

33:38And still, the civil liberties campaign has won the argument at the end of the day and got the Identity Cards Act overturned. We can do it again. We've got to. So I'd ask people to support Big Brother Watch, get involved in the campaign and hopefully make digital IDs history.

33:54Francis Foster:Absolutely. And this is a really important moment. I think there's, you know, people have busy lives, they've got families, they've got kids, they've got jobs and other things. But one of the reasons we were so glad to have you on, and we've been talking about this ourselves, I just think people don't, you see this in the polling numbers, we're told that, you know, about half the country support digital ideas. I don't believe that once they understand what it means. Yeah. A lot of people, as I would be if we were not doing this work quite, you know, we were not well informed about these issues because they're complicated and not that sexy, etc.

34:33Francis Foster:But actually, they really, really matter. And I think if people are more informed about it, you will see that the attitudes change significantly. and it might make it through the commons that even that is you know potentially questionable but you you will i think you will inevitably see a lot of pushback against it and by the time it comes to actually making it into law i don't think this government is going to be in charge anymore that's the thing um so they've said that they want this to be mandatory by 2029 it's not that far away you know by by the end of their term that um apparently all of us here in this room would have our digital IDs in our pockets and that will be required by law.

35:11So, you know, I think, yeah, I think it's a big question mark about whether they can actually make that reality, but we can't be complacent about it because the numbers in parliament really aren't in our favour. I think though with anything, when you've got half of the public who oppose this, it's unlike any other issue because that's half of the public who then are saying potentially that they're not going to carry a digital ID, then suddenly it's not a mandatory national system, is it? So I think actually those numbers are massively in our favour. If even a fraction of that half of the public that doesn't like this decides to stand up and be counted, then we'll win.

35:52Francis Foster:No, I'm saying now, I will not carry this. This is not acceptable. You'll be out of a job. I think I'll be fine. And that's the point, actually. Those of us who do have that ability to not be restricted by this, have a duty to say right now, I'm not participating in this. This is not right. I think one of the things that campaign groups like us will be important for is we need to find a way of protecting the refuseniks. Yes. People who are going to work and their bosses are saying, look, there's nothing I can do if you don't have your digital ID. You know, we did that during COVID as well. We looked after people that were being shut out of their jobs and other places because of vaccine card requirements.

36:30It's un-British. We're against this sort of thing. We don't need them. It's absolutely ludicrous that a British passport is not enough for an employer to prove that you're British and that you have the right to work. You've got to have Starmer's ID card. It's absolute rubbish. So it's another reason that, you know, for groups like us really need more strength right now to deal with what's coming.

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37:28Francis Foster:Clinical studies show that users lost twice as much weight as those using traditional diets alone, and 94 % maintained that weight loss more effectively over time. It's not about hacks, it's about fixing the deeper programming. Hypnosis-based programs reduced BMI and emotional eating significantly compared to standard diets. So what are you waiting for? Use our link in the description box and pinned comment and grab 15 % off your first subscription. I mean, the other thing that there's an odd whiff about this, So you go, oh, so who's going to be in charge of implementing it? Oh, it's you and Blair, Tony Blair's son.

38:03I don't know. I mean, I've heard I've read about those rumours, but I don't know yet. They're at such an early stage. I don't know that anyone's contracted at all. But one thing is for sure that the companies who are front in line to be contracted are many of them are the same companies that give vast amounts of funding to the Tony Blair Institute. Labour Together and some of the people around the Starmer administration. So that is definitely something to look out for. And I know there are lots of journalists that are looking into this now. And I think one of the things that we haven't talked about yet, but we really should be, is they're going to harvest all this data.

38:44How secure is it going to be? In a city like London, where every six days you get your phone nicked by someone on a bike, and basically it's going to be on an app. Somebody smart is going to come up with something where they're just going to wipe it and or they just, well, they're going to be able to take your ID? I think it's a massive risk that if we're carrying around something so sensitive on our phones, what happens when your phone breaks, gets lost, stolen. And then there's a whole other layer of security risks, which is that national security these days basically is cyber security. The Ministry of Defence in this country has been hacked uh i think over 40 times in the past decade um we that we know about yeah that we know about we lost um information about some of our spies and people have been working undercover in afghanistan um thanks to cyber security risks if we can't protect their data how are we going to protect the uh i mean it'll be well over 100 million uh people's data because bear in mind it's not just Brits who are going to have a Brit card, it's actually anyone living or working in the country.

39:52So it's going to be an astronomically sized database. That's happening at the same time as the government is developing something called a national data library, which is basically a centre for processing masses of data collected about the population and introducing AI in more and more areas of government. So it does seem very, very likely that, again, a digital ID will become basically a barcode that gains access to a set of reams of your information that then will very likely be processed by different private contractors or arms of government. Who knows? But if we look at what's happened with the NHS, which is a massive trove of data, Already we've had the likes of Google gaining unlawfully actually access to parts of NHS data and processing that with AI.

40:51This is like some of the most valuable data anywhere in the world. So it's sort of inevitable that our data will be hoarded and processed in that way. And in ways that we won't have any control over. That's the problem. It's a mandatory system. If Stam was saying he wants people to opt into this, everyone's going to love it. Come and get your digital ID. Let's see how that pans out. But the whole point is that we will legally have no choice. And what's interesting as well is when we interviewed a professor of AI and ethics from Oxford University, her name is Carissa Valise, it was a brilliant interview.

41:24She said that China are actually rolling back some of their data harvesting because they realise it's a national security threat. Yeah. Because if you get hacked, then enemies can then use that, manipulate it or do whatever they want. Sorry to interject, by the way.

41:42Francis Foster:I know a lot of people think about data breaches as like this big hacking operation of multi-million dollars from some evil. No, it's like a civil servant lifts his fucking laptop on a train and then that's what the data breaches actually look like. They can do. They can do. Yeah. In fact, it was something almost exactly like that that happened in the noughties that was critical to the downfall of Blair's ID scheme. because people just didn't trust it because the government kept losing masses of data. And it happens all the time. Yeah. And especially now in the context that we're living in where, you know, we do face really serious cybersecurity risks from the likes of China and Russia.

42:23This will be that there will basically be a target over this database. And if it is compromised, then the consequences could be really, really grave for the whole country, to be honest but also for individuals the fact that our biometric data will be on there potentially with everything from tax health um where you live work enormous amounts of data about you but underpinned by that biometric it's really serious you can't that's information you can't change it's not like if you lose a password you quickly change your password and then try and protect everything again you can't change your face you can't change your fingerprint so it It really means that the risks here are elevated massively.

43:07And it's also coming down to competency as well. If people are watching this and they're like, I don't know what side of the fence to fall on with this particular thing. Do you trust this government to be able to do anything effectively or competently? We don't have a border. Let's just be honest about that. We don't. People flood in. We go, we're trying to deport people. I think the first flight that we, for people to be deported from this country left empty. How do you expect them to run this? Well, and an IT program. The government running anything, you know, as you say, people always question the competence of government, especially at the moment.

43:43But the government running an IT project, no, it's always, always plagued with really serious issues and costs the country billions of pounds as well. It's something else that just hasn't been factored in here. How much is it going to cost? you know the country just simply doesn't have the money to waste on this going absolutely nowhere. I think the border security command costs about 100 million pounds there's a budget of about 100 million pounds well five billion was wasted last time this country tried to introduce digital IDs that's about 50 times the amount of the border security command very very clearly this isn't about immigration so again I think if somebody's struggling to to kind of choose a side on this issue, the starting point is the government's lying to you.

44:30This isn't being introduced in order to root out people working illegally in this country. So the next question is, why is it being introduced? And how is it going to impact your life? And I think those are some of the things that obviously we're talking about today. I think they're things to be really worried about. Do you think it's a very cynical ploy by Starmer as a way to actually try and sell this to people who are very concerned and quite rightly so about illegal immigration. I think it's appalling. I think it's a disgraceful way to treat the public.

45:04Keir Starmer is treating the public like we're complete idiots. He's used the pretext to rehash a very old policy that's really unpopular. And he's thought that by tapping into these concerns and then talking about patriotism, that he could sell it into the public in a new way. that's backfired. Instead everyone's looking at him and saying you're clearly not telling the truth, it's clearly not about that. So you've shown two things. One is that you've got absolutely no idea what to do about people working illegally in the country and second is that you don't understand patriotism at all, you don't understand British values because this is about as un-British as it gets.

45:38We've always rejected ID cards and we're going to reject them this time around.

45:42Francis Foster:Well that's the hope here for me politically and look, you know Francis says it's the worst government in history I actually don't think that's true. I don't think they're particularly incompetent more than the Tories or whatever. And I said this at the time of the when the election happened. I did an article in a video about it. And the point I was making is Britain's problems are structural in nature. They were going to be very difficult to solve no matter who's in charge. Starmer is very, very unpopular because he hasn't made an impact on those issues. But I just do not understand the electoral logic behind this.

46:13Francis Foster:It's suicidal. Absolutely. And if they want to try this, I think we will make this his poll tax. It could well be the end of his premiership if he actually goes for this. But the problem is he's committed to it now. So he's either in a position where he has to go all out and then it will become his poll tax. Or he has to do a U-turn, which will also not be great. It's a weird time. That's why I think we can't be complacent about it. It's quite clear the writing's on the wall. this has bombed in the worst possible way. Any policy that affects every single individual member of the public that half of them are saying no to is going to be a disaster.

46:55But he's in it now. He's made the commitment and they've put a time frame on it. They've said that by 2029, each and every one of us will have to have this digital ID. So it does mean really that if we are to defeat it, which I think we can and we will, the way in which that happens will probably be one of the nails in the coffin for Starmer because it really threatens his premiership. Especially since he's introduced this policy at Labour conference when the conference is supposed to be about his survival and about the survival of the government and the flagship policy is giving us all a digital ID.

47:33He's shown how completely out of touch he is with the public. He's tried to lie to the public. It hasn't gone down well. And I think he will reap the consequences, but it won't come easily for us as campaigners.

47:45Francis Foster:Well, we're going to have to make sure that doesn't happen. One of the things I just find, you've highlighted a couple of times already, just how extraordinary the deceit is in this all, because you've got a large number of people who, as Francis says, rightly are frustrated with the fact that we have an open border. It's not because they hate immigrants, it's just like countries need borders. It's a basic requirement of statehood. And that is being used, that legitimate concern that people have expressed for a long time, which is driving the rise of reform that Labour are so concerned about, that is being used in a way that they're not actually going to fix the problem.

48:23Francis Foster:Instead, they're going to deliver this authoritarian policy that will be in our lives. Much like, you know, we are now a lot of people, I think, realizing that many of the reasons the country is screwed up in the ways that it's screwed up is because of the Blair government 20 years ago that introduced a bunch of legislation that we're still living the consequences of. So you're going to get an abortive Starmer government that's in power for a couple of years whose only legacy is to do these shenanigans. And we are then left if they are successful with this crap on the statute. Yeah, I think part of the reason that people are flooding to reform is because they don't trust politicians anymore and they just want something new.

49:01And it seems anti-establishment. That's kind of the read that some people have. and this policy actually demonstrates yet again that the public is being lied to by people who who think that they can can treat us like we're completely ignorant and born yesterday and and the public aren't buying it I think there's there was some weird irony about the fact that Starmer introduced this in a speech about patriotic renewal, he was saying. And he was talking about reform quite directly and saying that he was talking about working class people having the politics of grievance. And he was implying that a lot of this grievance that people have is manufactured, which I think is...

49:52And then, minutes later, he said, so we're going to have a digital ID to stop the boats. So I think he has built up a caricature of the working class and saying that the things that working class people care about aren't really real. But let me borrow one of those, stopping the boats. And there you go. Here's the policy we've been trying to do for the past couple of decades. It's really, I think it's really, really appalling. If people felt before they They didn't know what STAMA stands for. I think maybe they know now. And it's basically some sort of bland, Blairite policies and corporate interests.

50:29I think that's what this feels like. It feels like population management. It doesn't really feel like someone that's got an aspiration for the country that understands the things that ordinary people care about or the values that we live by.

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51:55Francis Foster:Click the link in the description or go to pure-gold.co.trigger to get your free copy of the Investor Guide. That's pure-gold.co.trigger. Take control of your financial future today. Do you remember when we were kids, Silky, and we said something that people didn't like and went, oh, it's a free country, what are you going to do? Nobody says that anymore, do they? It feels much less free, doesn't it? Yeah, no, absolutely. And like you say, I mean, one of the, if this does go ahead, if we do have mandatory digital IDs, it will be one of the legacies of the Stama government that we then continue to live with.

52:33It's not something that the harms that are caused by something like a mandatory digital ID scheme are long lasting and irreversible. We have to be really clear about that. You don't introduce something like this and then six months later have it taken away and everyone deletes their digital ID. It doesn't happen. If this is rolled out, it's something that the British public are going to have to live with. if it's something we have to live with it is something that will expand and grow in all of the ways that we've discussed from the internet to benefits health and AI being used to process the data if you just look at the the the the flow of the tide in politics towards all of these areas digital ID will be become the thing that gets caught up and that gets expanded every single time.

53:18In fact, the question will be, why aren't we using the digital IDs for this? Let's say, let's start with, it's going to be used for the right to work. Currently, they're looking at somebody's citizenship and immigration status. Why aren't they looking at their benefit status? That's an oversight, isn't it? Shouldn't we look at their benefit status? If we're looking at their benefit status, shouldn't we look at their bank accounts and see actually what money's in the bank accounts. Again, let's look at this in concert. The Starmer government has just introduced mass bank spying powers on the premise of rooting out welfare fraud.

53:55The work and pensions... Can I just pause you there? What does mass banking spying powers, what does that actually mean in the realities of it, the practicalities? So the Starmer government has just introduced a new law that means that private banks have to search data about all of us basically root through our bank statements all the time in order to flag people that they think might be receiving a benefit that shouldn't be receiving a benefit and given how complex the benefit system is that's obviously destined for disaster but that's millions and millions of our bank statements being rooted rooted through for government administration purposes basically so we're seeing expansions of surveillance in multiple different areas of life.

54:43That's on the premise of rooting out welfare fraud. The Work and Pensions Secretary has said in the days after the announcement about digital IDs, we can use this for welfare fraud too. It's something that Blair said years ago. So soon then you've got, it's not just about the right to work, it's also about benefits. When it's about benefits, it's about banking. Again, the government webpage has already spoken about digital IDs being used for private banking too. and then when you've got benefits work and banking you probably should have health because that relates to your benefits as well and so the force that the impetus will be why aren't you using the digital id for these other areas it's an oversight isn't it and so that's how it will we could cut

55:32Francis Foster:theft from supermarkets by making sure everyone taps in at the entrance couldn't we sure right You can't come in unless you've scanned your digital ID. We've got a lot of people stealing stuff from shops, right, because the police aren't enforcing the law. So we could solve that with digital ID. And on and on and on and on it goes. Because once you have the infrastructure, you are not going to run out of reasons to use it. Yeah. I think with all of this, if you don't make the case for liberty, you just give way to authoritarianism. The time to make case for liberty is now, because this is the opening of the floodgates, the introduction of a mandatory digital ID.

56:10That's the point of no return. Once we've got one, fighting its expansion will be very, very difficult. But the time to really put up a fight is now so that we never have a mandatory digital ID in this country because if we do, what's inevitable is that it will spiral into many, many areas of our life and it will become a permit and it will become something that is used not to help people gain access to stuff but to stop people from doing stuff that the government doesn't want them to do. And also as well, just and I think this is an important point to raise. Let's go back again to Covid. Do you remember the trucker protests in Canada?

56:43In Canada. Do you remember when they froze bank accounts? Exactly. I mean, if it's linked to your bank account and you're doing something that the government finds affects the safety of others. And we've spoken about how nebulous that term is. Well, I mean, it's one step away from freezing bank accounts, isn't it?

56:57Francis Foster:Well, that's and look, we Boris Johnson sat in your seat right there when we interviewed him and in the substack section, which we're about to do with you, where our supporters get to ask our guests questions. We talked about covid and I said to him, look, you are you were this libertarian prime minister. And yet you did all of these things. And you know what he said? He said, well, this is what the public wanted. now i remember the public quite a lot of the public wanted people who weren't vaccinated not to be allowed to go to the hospital not to get a doctor's appointment so if you're in a situation where the public demands something and you've got a class of politicians who will do whatever it is the public demand because the media is light to them endlessly what you're going to end up in if you've got this system is people denied all kinds of things not just banking You know, you attended a protest or you didn't get vaccinated or you did this or you did that.

57:51Francis Foster:Well, why should you get a doctor's appointment on our brilliant NHS? Do you deserve that? No. We've tracked your behavior. You tweeted three times about how the NHS isn't as good as it should be. You made the point about conspirators. I really don't think this is conspiratorial at all. This is not hard to imagine when you look at the last five years that we all lived through. Yeah, I don't think we should be squeamish about pointing out the risks whatsoever. Because at this point, we have lived through that period. And also, we just cannot assess something like this without applying the political knowledge that we have and historical knowledge that we have.

58:33And the fact that the Johnson government introduced COVID IDs is a perfect example. You had somebody that professed to be a libertarian who's now saying in light of Starmer's announcement that he will never carry a digital ID. And yet when he was in government, he basically did introduce one himself. People know that governments kind of follow the tide of public opinion, which, by the way, is not, you know, there are elements to which opinion can be guided and manufactured as well, of course. and I think that's why people don't trust this and people aren't going to buy it and millions and millions of people, you're one, I'm one, Francis, you're going to have a digital idea?

59:15Oh, absolutely. I'm not here for it. Millions of us just won't do it.

59:19Francis Foster:Right. Well, on that happy note, it's always great to have you on the show. Please keep up your good work at Big Brother Watch. We're big fans of yours. It's always great to have you on the show. We're going to ask you a bunch of questions from our supporters in a second but before we do, what do you think is the one thing that we're not talking about that we should be? I think what no one's talking about is the massive expansion of surveillance in other areas at the moment that put together with the digital ID we should be really worried about. The massive expansion of live facial recognition cameras across the country and mass banks buying powers as well that have been introduced by the Starmer government.

59:54So this is a government that's expanding surveillance in lots of different areas. And so when we talk about digital ID, it's important to think about the other things that are happening and how these might link together.

1:00:06Francis Foster:Silky thank you very much head on over to triggerpod.co.uk where we ask Silky your questions at what point do these increasingly authoritarian laws spill over to no longer being a free country and what point is the tipping point at which we all say no more