Hard times for Brand America

0:00In the fall of 2023, Romana Didolo, a woman calling herself the Queen of Canada, drove into Richemount, Saskatchewan with a fleet of RVs and set up her kingdom in an abandoned school. So the town banded together to get the cult out by any means necessary. My name is Rachel Brown, and in this season of Uncover, I explore what happens when a conspiracy theory lands in your backyard. The Cult Queen of Canada, available now on CBC Listen and everywhere you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast.

1:02And it was a lot. And we're going to get to Italy. But first, let's talk about what just might have been his most provocative threat to date, going after the soon to be opened Gordie Howe International Bridge between Windsor and Detroit. Trump is essentially threatening not to let that bridge open unless the U.S. is, and I quote here, fully compensated for everything we have given them. But sorry, I'm going to jump in. Is it a threat, though? Like, or is it, you know, we spent the whole last episode talking about trolling. Right. And that's sorry to jump in. But I feel very strong. Somebody's had a lot of coffee.

1:40It's and that's again, you don't know. Is he just stirring the pot with more stuff or is it a real threat? I mean, it's be it has to be taken seriously, though, because he is the president. Sorry, Katie. No, it's OK. It's a roadblock, right? It's another thing that Canada has to deal with that, you know, before 6 p.m. on Monday, they didn't have to deal with. So it's OK. You have to navigate, you know, what does Trump actually what power does he actually have to hold this up if this is something that he's going to go ahead with? And again, also navigate a mix of incorrect information put out there by the president.

2:14But also the bridge is built. It's too late. Now we're going to do a whole episode on this. But does, you know, a bigger, can he stop it? Like, nobody seems to know the answer to that. And you talk about the different bits of, air quotes, information's in there. China's going to stop Canada from playing hockey. Or that even the fact that who owns it and who built it, like, he's wrong on so many counts, which gets you back to the central question. Is he just trolling or is this a real threat? Or is he just, for the heck of it, thumbing this stuff out because? Because he wants to change the channel.

2:47But my other question is, why this? Like, why the bridge? Why? Who sort of put this in front of him as, you know, an issue that needed to be dealt with in this moment? Because he didn't just randomly think, you know what? You know what's really grinding my gears right now is this new bridge. Like, like, how did this? I would love to know the behind the scenes of how Trump got to that moment and that specific issue, because I think it would say a lot about who's advising him on Canada-U.S. relations and, you know, the U.S. ambassador to Canada. He's from Michigan. Is this something, you know, in his sphere or like or he's apparently going to deal with it now?

3:19But it's fascinating. And by the way, something that Trump himself called a vital link between the two countries when he signed off on it in Trump 1.0. Yeah. Trump 2.0, just so much different. And, you know, we've spoken about it before, how sometimes when you meet Americans and they see that CBC logo or find out that you're Canadian, they apologize. Well, Trump's latest post has former Michigan Governor James Blanchard doing just that. It's very important and it's just foolish and ridiculous for Mr. Trump to try to hold it up. It's very sad. I'm sorry that your people have to put up with this nonsense, actually.

3:58That nonsense, that unpredictability and schoolyard bullying, it has an impact. And America's image abroad, it's taking a hit. Nowhere has that been more evident than at the Olympics. And this week we're asking, is America's soft power in decline? I'm Willie Lowry. I'm Katie Simpson. And I'm Paul Hunter. And here we are, two blocks from the White House. There is the Vice President, J.D. Vance. He's right in the group. Those are not. And those are a lot of boos from him. Whistling, jeering, some of the others. Not the reaction that J.D. Vance probably wanted to hear. I'm not going to lie. I went to bed after the Canadians walked into the stadium.

4:45But I woke up the next day and watched. I think, again, it's an example that the rhetoric out of this administration, there's a ripple effect. What do you think, Katie? I was actually in Canada and watched the broadcast. I was home with my family, and I don't necessarily think I'm surprised in this moment. There's two sort of elements to it here. People in the United States are frustrated and expressing frustration with the Trump administration. Some of them, not all of them. Some people. Yeah, we can't blanket things here. Trump still has support and we always have to remember that. And then there's the external sort of factor here and the impact that the Trump administration's policy changes are having on countries all around the world.

5:29Canada, of course, being sort of on the front lines of dealing with sort of backlash and threats and all kinds of different things that are dramatically changing everyday life for people all around the world. And the outside world doesn't vote in an American election, but you know how they can express themselves? Things like this. Look, I think what's happening is the world is catching up to Canada on this. The world is realizing it can't ignore the change that I want to say is happening, has happened in the United States. Look, the U.S. brand has taken a huge hit in the past year. The beacon of democracy and the enterprise and the creativity and the welcoming of immigrants from around, it's all gone out the window, right, in the eyes of the rest of the world now.

6:16Now, you know, it was Mark Carney when he said that talked about the rupture, right? Really talking about Canada and U.S., but it's a rupture between the U.S. and the world. And I think that's what we've seen on display in Italy. The rest of the world saying, hey, no, we don't like this and we have to stand up and vocalize it. Hence the booing, which, by the way, a lot of Americans took great issue with and said, don't like that at all. And if you don't like our country, leave it. Although, interestingly, a lot of Americans didn't hear it. NBC apparently cut out before or cut the audio before Americans were able to hear that booing.

6:57I've seen a lot of that controversy online because it's when you take a look at the clips that have gotten a lot of international attention, gone viral, as we say, it's the Canadian broadcast out there picking up on what they could hear inside where it was happening. I do think that's a bit complicated in truth. I've been in stadiums where Stadia? Stadia? Is that right? You're our grammar. Where there is a smattering of booze here, there, or lots of booze, and it depends where the microphones are, depends whether you're taking a big, wide sample of sound. Yeah, and it depends on exactly what your correspondents in the room can hear.

7:34And that's what you get out of here. What you're getting is people who were in the stand saying, no, no, no. When Vance's, not when the team came out, but when J.D. Vance's image went up on the big screen, that's when it happened. And I think that's indicative of the world perspective of the U.S. right now. And also the ceremonies were held simultaneously in several different locations. So it was a little disjointed. So it's very possible, right, that they just cut to, you know, Cortino rather than staying in Milan at the stadium. But Paul, the controversies around ice, the crackdown in Minneapolis, it's followed the athletes and the Americans to Milan.

8:11Let's talk a little bit about that. Yeah, but this gets back to the brand, right? Right now, ICE, you could almost say, is the brand of America because that's the image that America has put out to the world with all the news coverage of what's been going on, right? And so the U.S., some might say, in a tone-deaf kind of way that can't read the room on things like this, sent ICE agents to Italy to support, not to be on the streets or anything like that, but to support U.S. interests in Italy, something that is done all the time. The U.S. sends its security people around the world at such events regularly.

8:44But the brand ICE right now, and so people flipped out because the world, I posit, is coming to recognize that this is what it is now. So the mayor of Milan said, you know, what did he say? I wrote it down here. It's ICE is a militia that kills, right? And you're not welcome here. This is the mayor of Milan saying this. It was so bad that the foreign minister in Italy said, yeah, but it's not like it's the SS. You know you're in trouble when you're being... I did not know. I did not hear that. I know. But that's the prism through which the world now sees the U.S. And a lot of that, Katie, has to do with what's been happening in Minneapolis.

9:26Of course, you're our resident Minneapolis expert. Yeah, the images, the videos of the killing of Renee Good and the videos of the killing of Alex Preddy and the way that the Trump administration described what happened when those when the world looked at that and saw the things didn't match up. It's a huge source of backlash here. But, you know, what is making news internationally? You look at like what we cover as well through Canadian prism that, you know, for for all of these different news organizations are all around the world. These are things that are in top slots that either pick up on social media, that either pick up on foreign news as well.

10:04It's not just Americans who are looking at this and raising concern in this moment. And so, you know, when we hear about ICE agents being a part of the American security delegation, it might not be unusual. But we're in a moment where ICE agents are the focus of unusual attention. And so, of course, there is going to be that sort of concern. And even if they're not doing anything related to what's going on in America right now, that is that is the space in which we live and seeing what we are seeing now. Absolutely. And it's following these American athletes to the games. They're getting asked what they think about the actions of this administration.

10:40Let's take a listen to Hunter Hess. He's an American skier. And, well, he had some pretty strong words. It brings up mixed emotions to represent the U.S. right now, I think. It's a little hard. There's obviously a lot going on that I'm not the biggest fan of, and I think a lot of people aren't. Just because I'm wearing the flag doesn't mean I represent everything that's going on in the U.S. So I'm of two minds when journalists are asking these athletes this question. First of all, do I really care about what these athletes think about American politics? They've spent their whole lives working to get to the Olympics, not necessarily to represent their country, but to really represent themselves.

11:19This is a lifetime's effort, and this is their moment to achieve their dreams. At the same time, they have a platform, and it's really struck a nerve with the president himself, right, Katie? Yeah, President Trump put a post on True Social where he called Hunter Hess, a quote, a real loser. It says he doesn't represent his country in the current Winter Olympics, saying it's very hard to root for someone like this. And then he said, make America great again. There's another post that came from a former Trump administration staffer who is a major influence in the MAGA world with a podcast. And she's married to Stephen Miller, who is an aide in the Trump administration, a very senior aide to President Trump.

11:59That's Katie Miller. And she says, if you can't love America while competing on behalf of our nation, then you shouldn't be at the Olympics. And so I think it speaks to this broader moment that the Trump administration has a very specific view of patriotism. And if you do not align with the Trump vision of patriotism, that you are offside and not patriotic. Sure. And I think to your first point there, Willie, I think if you're going to be part of a team that marches out carrying the flag as the first thing that anybody sees, I think it legitimizes these questions. But to your stuff, Katie, I mean, I don't know, you know, like when Trump reacts in that way, I think it underlines the deeper, more frightening and sobering and sad situation that the United States faces right now.

12:53And that is the divide. Right. You're either with us or against us. Right. You're one of us or you're one of them. You're a good guy or a bad guy, and there's no in between. In the country that talks about the First Amendment and the right to free speech and free opinion, right? No. What's going to happen is if you speak out against the status quo, against the current leadership, you will be pilloried. You will be turned into an enemy. This is the most, in another time, the most un-American thing you can imagine. Not that it never happened before, but that it's happening constantly now. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Hunter Hess, look at the comments in any social media posting about that.

13:32It's filled with, get out of this country, you traitor. If you don't like it, leave it. All this kind of stuff, like times a thousand, right? Amber Glenn, a U.S. figure skater, says she's received death threats. Same thing. Exactly. Because that's the situation. That's the circumstance this country finds us in. When the ecosystem sort of winds up and picks targets, when look what happened to Marjorie Taylor Greene. The former congresswoman who is this MAGA cheerleader who decided to stand up to Trump for all of her controversies in the past. But when she took a stand on the Epstein files, look what happened in that situation.

14:08He starts making fun of her. She starts getting doxxed and the death threats start and she decides to take a space out. Do not underestimate the power of the way that this social media hate and harassment works and the real legitimate safety concerns that it exposes. And don't underestimate the depth of the tribalism. And that's, again, back to the divide. I'll say one more quick thing. I said it's not a new thing, and it isn't. Remember Mexico's 68? Paul, stop talking. That was my next question. Those two athletes who stood up and protested against the absence of civil rights and the economic disparities between black and white Americans, et cetera, et cetera, they got threats.

14:47And that was 1968. It's not a new thing, but it is just sort of omnipresent right now, and it is deeper than ever before. Well, I don't know where to go anymore, Paul, because that literally was my next question. My apologies. That's okay. But, you know, I also... Ask it anyway. I have an answer. But there's also the point that, you know, MAGA Republicans, they don't have this monopoly over patriotism, right? And yet they seem to kind of think that they do. You know, we talk about this ecosystem, echo chamber. The vitriol, I mean, it is, you can see it like fomenting towards these athletes. And it's definitely scary.

15:23How do these athletes sort of navigate this? Okay, so you have your massive moment on the world stage. You're going to be put in front of reporters and you're going to be talking about how you got here. And just think, put yourself in the athlete's shoes for a minute. And you're sitting there and you get asked a question and you have a perspective, whatever your perspective is going to be. and you say it and you know that even though, you know, freedom of speech is the First Amendment right here in the United States and you no matter what you say, it's going to be sucked into this moment of the division, sort of like the cycle of division.

15:58Right. And if you want to if you if perhaps your perspective is that you want to say something that perhaps is critical of the moment in America, knowing that if you say that, what your future can look like and just think about that perspective.

16:19Add a little curiosity into your routine with TED Talks Daily, the podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday. In less than 15 minutes a day, you'll go beyond the headlines and learn about the big ideas shaping your future. Coming up, how AI will change the way we communicate, how to be a better leader, and more. Listen to TED Talks Daily, wherever you get your podcasts. It's a lot to think about athletes getting death threats for kind of expressing their feelings only after being asked a question by reporters. Most of these instances, they're not even kind of divulging them on their own.

16:57They're being asked by reporters. But with all of the rhetoric that's going around surrounding these games, how does this affect America's image abroad? That's a question, isn't it? I mean, it's as if we've talked about this a lot, that U.S. society and it's not the U.S. isn't alone in the world in this way, but it's being torn apart. And I think athletes are recognizing that. I think other countries are recognizing that. We've seen that looking in from Canada down at our cousins and friends and brothers and sisters in the United States, the tribalistic left, right, MAGA, non-MAGA, conservative, liberal, however you want to frame it, divide that is ever deepening.

17:47And I think people, I think it's fair to say people around the world, and we've seen evidence of this in Italy this week, are just saying like two things. They're saying, no, that's not right. And they're also saying, what is going on in America? The country that was applauded for decades for standing up and doing the right thing, not every single time, but most of the time, at least Americans like to think so as well. But it was this country that was looked upon as the place to go, the place to be, the place where stuff happens, and they do it right. To bring it back to the bridge, right? The symbolism of that bridge was to unite, right?

18:25Was to say, hey, we have cross-border trade, we have cross-border travel, we have our friends on both sides, and we're going to name it after a Canadian hockey player who played in Detroit. Exactly. And it could be a more perfect symbol of the relationship between these two countries. And now Canada, Canadians, and people around the world in Italy this week are looking at Americans saying, you're not who we thought you were. And that, I think, is the recognition that has been on display this week. I also think a point of context here is that it's not necessarily just a uniquely American challenge.

19:02The polarization is not just an American problem. It is like, have you like, take a look at the internet in Canada and certain social media platforms there. I do think that it is a bigger, broader global challenge. You know, the way that social media works. Can I just sneak in something else? Always, Paul. Because I'm going to anyway. You know, I do think, you know, back in Trump 1.0, to use that term again, I think everybody sort of thought that once he gets into the White House, things will settle down and he'll, the weight of the office will be felt by him and he'll be a sort of, for lack of a better term, a more normal president than you might think.

19:39More moderated. A more moderated, right, exactly. And then that came and went and then Biden came and went and then Trump 2.0 comes in. And it's almost like the year that has gone by, the world has been waiting for that to happen again. And it didn't happen again. It didn't happen first time. Instead, it's gone through the roof. And I think back to the theme of this episode, it's as if the world is now recognizing and branding the U.S. an unserious country, right? With a leader who makes false statements, contradictory statements, policy flip-flops, mercurial decisions that affect the rest of the world, that affect Canada deeply, and that affect the rest of the world.

20:21And they're saying, well, wait a second, but now it's too late. Now he is the president and will be for the next three years, legally elected. Again, Katie, how many times have we said it? 77 million Americans said yes to all this. He's just doing what he said he would do. And here we are. Paul, you brought up brand. I think it's kind of undeniable that Canada seems to be having a little moment on the world stage. For the record, the Canadians got quite a loud ovation at the Olympics. Again, I stayed up for that part. But there's also there's heated rivalry. Carney's speech in Davos. What do you make of this?

20:59Yeah. I mean, I think the world has seen Canada stand up to Donald Trump without imploding. It's early, though. It's early for sure. The rest of the world has tried flattery and hasn't helped them. It is early. We'll see where this goes with the Canada-U.S. relationship. But having a moment? Yeah. And it's not often, let's be honest, that Canada has a moment on the world stage. But I think everybody is trying to figure out how to deal with the Trump administration. And I think, I mean, the amount of attention that Carney's speech in Davos got was kind of incredible. When you think about it, you could almost see light bulbs going off around other leaders' heads saying, hey, maybe that's the way to go.

21:51So, yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's a moment. But moments can be brief, the definition of the word. Certainly fleeting. Katie? I think we're going to have to pay very close attention to what is going on in Canada domestically and whether the moment that might be happening on the world stage right now, whether that resonates domestically. And, OK, if Canada is going to stand up, what are the consequences that Canada might see to daily life? You know, are Canadians going to have to endure consequences or is it just weathering the storm and hoping to get through it? So the thing there is, will the rest of the world follow suit?

22:26A year ago, Canadian sports fans were booing the U.S. national anthem to bring it full circle, right, to read the Olympics. Three fights in nine seconds. It's been that kind of a year. And nothing has changed in many senses. And the world is reacting. All right, guys. First of all, thank you very much for indulging me so we could talk about the Olympics. I think you've all realized that I really, really like them. Fun fact, when I was little, I actually wanted to go to the Olympics. Less fun fact, I possess none of the talent required. But before we go, I want to take time for a quick question from a listener.

23:11This week, we have one from Richard Frost in Winnipeg. Here's what he had to say. Recognizing that so many of us won't even buy U.S. strawberries, much less travel in the USA, I can't help but wonder how you feel about working there and supporting their economy. I know you must do it, but do you have pangs of remorse given the current state of affairs? Katie? So I very much view my I'm here to do a job. I see journalism as a public service. And so when I look at my time here, I'm only here for a limited time. We don't get to stay forever. And so when I look at this time and this space, I view my work here as work, as a public service to help people better understand why Americans make the decisions they make and the choices they do, to better understand what's going on here and better understand how the changes that are happening here affect Canada and Canadians, if that makes any sense.

24:11It does. I don't disagree with any of that. I'm here to do a job. It is a very complicated time between the two countries. I'm always a Canadian when I'm doing my job reporting on this country to people back home. So it's a very interesting question, and I find myself conflicted about it, and I don't know what to do. I'm always aware when you buy things. How can you not be? How can you not think that? And yet, you've got to eat. And I live in Washington, D.C. I live in America. I have for a long time. it's tough you go back to Canada and you see, you go to the grocery store and you see the maple leaf on all the Canadian made products and you want to sort of grab some mustard or whatever but you come home and my home right now is in this country where I work and I report back to Canada you gotta eat and it makes man it's complicated that's not a really good answer to the question because I don't know that there is an easy answer to that question I think I'm kind of a bit of both of you.

25:21I do feel that guilt. And when I'm back home in Canada, I do love playing the only buy Canadian game. I play it with my kids at the supermarket, the grocery store, and we enjoy that. And I do feel an element of guilt contributing to the economy. But like you, Katie, you know, we're here to do a job. We work for the CBC. That means something. And I think it's important that we're here to understand this administration and to try and help offer insights to Canadians. Do your job, but buy Canadian maple syrup. That's my line. Is there another kind? Well, exactly. That's the one thing. I will not let American maple syrup into my house.

26:01That's your red line? Cannot do it. Cannot do it. Thanks for sending us that question, Richard. And please keep the questions coming. Ask us anything and let us know what you think of the show. Email us at WashingtonPod, all one word, at cbc.ca. That's WashingtonPod at cbc.ca. And also, don't forget to follow the podcast on your favorite listening app. And we are now on YouTube so you can watch us and see all of our excellent fashion choices. Fun. Yours is quite strong today, Katie. I was going to say, you're wearing an overcoat. What did you call it, Paul? An overshirt? An overshirt. It's a chore jacket, Paul.

26:36It's a chore jacket. Anyways, this was so much fun. Again, thanks for letting me take the team lead, guys. Thanks, Willie. Thanks, Katie. Thanks, guys.