Is Trump trolling Canada?

13:22Willy Lowry:And especially us, 75%, 77 % of Canadian exports, I think, are directly with the United States. I mean, by proximity, et cetera, we're right there. We're at the front of that line, right? And Canada needs that market. We've been reliant on the United States. It's a challenge.

13:41Katie Simpson:Yeah, he negotiates from a place of strength pretty much every single time. Absolutely. 100%.

13:52Paul Hunter:Add a little curiosity into your routine with TED Talks Daily, the podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday.

13:58Katie Simpson:In less than 15 minutes a day, you'll go beyond the headlines and learn about the big ideas shaping your future. Coming up, how AI will change the way we communicate, how to be a better leader, and more. Listen to TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts.

14:15Paul Hunter:Now, since Trump's return to the White House, there have been a lot of things said about Canada, some of them very serious threats that actually have consequences attached to them. Some of it just openly seems like trolling. So, you know, for example, the other day, the president was asked about how the UK was making a deal with China. And he, without prompting, brought up Canada.

14:38Katie Simpson:Canada is not doing well. They're doing very poorly. And you can't look at China as the answer. I know China very well. I know President Xi is a friend of mine and now I'm very well. But that's a big hurdle to go over when you get Canada. The first thing they're going to do is say you're not allowed to play ice hockey anymore. That's not good. Canada's not going to lie.

15:01Paul Hunter:So Willie, do you really think that Canadian ice hockey is under threat right now?

15:06Katie Simpson:My first answer is, I don't know what ice hockey is. I play hockey. And, you know, the second is, you know, I think he's doing this really for effect, right? He kind of had a bit of a snicker when he mentioned this. He said it again the next day. Clearly, he kind of likes the line and is kind of trying it out. So, no, I do not think hockey or ice hockey is under threat. As some would call it. You know, how much truth or seriousness was there intended by him? It's hard to know. But I think clearly the fact that the question was about the UK shows that Mark Carney's speech in Davos still kind of working around in his mind.

15:48Paul Hunter:Paul, when Trump first returned to office quite frequently, as we've sort of discussed here, 51st state came up, 51st state. And I'm wondering, from your perspective, given the way that Trump's language around, say, Greenland, do you think there's a new edge to the threats against Canada because of the way he talks about the Western Hemisphere?

16:10Willy Lowry:I don't know.

16:13Paul Hunter:Fair enough.

16:15Willy Lowry:And that's it for today's podcast. You know, the problem with trolling, if the theme of the day is trolling, the problem with trolling is you don't know what to make of it ever. Like I sat through more than enough times where Barack Obama made jokes about Canada getting milk in bags and stuff like that. But to draw the line at getting milk out of a bag. This we Americans do not understand. And it was meant as a funny thing. Right. And it was taken as a funny thing. And, you know, to the, you know, when Trump smirks after saying something, is that because it's meant to be a funny thing? Or with Trump, it certainly feels like there is more of an edge to it.

17:01Willy Lowry:When Scott Besson, Secretary of the Treasury, made that remark not long ago about how, what was it that don't pick a fight? Mark Carney shouldn't pick a fight in the lead up to the Kuzma renegotiations. I would not pick a fight going into USMCA to score some cheap political points. Well, he is the secretary of the Treasury, the equivalent of the finance minister. Right. And he has Trump's ear. And what he says, therefore, like with the president himself, the words that come out of his mouth matter. But the thing. But then, you know, he didn't smirk, but he did say, you know, that's the headline.

17:39But Besson also went on to say things will end up in a good place.

17:43Willy Lowry:But you're still left even when that is said, should you believe that, right? Go back to the negotiations last time around. Trump came out on the day that he was signing, right? And he said, best deal ever, greatest, historic, right? And now, Trump says of Canada, nasty negotiators. posturing the stuff that is normally behind closed doors in other rooms, maybe. But it all comes back to he is the president. That's the problem with everything we've been talking about. He is the president of the United States and his words ultimately, potentially matter.

18:19Paul Hunter:Will he tell us, you know, when someone like, you know, Scott Besson, even though we know at the end of the day that Donald Trump is the decision maker here. But when someone like Scott Besson sort of sends that message and starts talking about Canada in that way, you know, what kind of weight is behind his words?

18:35Katie Simpson:Yeah, I think a lot. First of all, to the plastic bag, milk and plastic bag references, never fun when a bad cut ruins the whole family's milk. And I apologize to, you know, my siblings and parents. Wasted a lot of good milk. But...

18:50Willy Lowry:Well, it's hard. It's not easy. I know. You got to have sharp scissors.

18:52Katie Simpson:And what self-respecting parents are letting a five-year-old cut the milk bag? Don't run. But anyways, you know, I think back to Paul's point, everything these people say matters because these are people of importance and they are running the most powerful country in the world. And I think all of this is in the backdrop of the upcoming looming Kuzma negotiations. And I think all of this is kind of the beginning of a chess game or a checkers game. I don't know what sport that, you know, what board game they're playing, but it's all leaning up to July, is it?

19:28Paul Hunter:Yeah, it's the game of life and everyone is losing.

19:30Katie Simpson:Yeah, pretty much.

19:32Paul Hunter:It's it's it's rough. I think going into it's the July 1st deadline. I would not be surprised. And I think that Canadians should sort of brace themselves if Donald Trump puts himself out there and postures and sort of signals that he does want to formally end Kuzma or USMCA, as it's called here in the United States. He is going to push for massive concessions from both Canada and Mexico. I expect the trolling and the threats are going to intensify in the next six months.

20:04Katie Simpson:Yeah, I think this is only the beginning. And I think, you know, to borrow an adage from the UK, I mean, I think the only rational approach Canadians can take is keep calm and carry on because the rhetoric is it's going to get ugly. It got ugly, if I recall, the last time around, too. It was pretty. Those were tense negotiations and they were on a better footing, you know. So I think, again, yeah, do your best to acknowledge what the president is saying, but not necessarily kind of let them tear you apart. Close your eyes and think of maple syrup.

20:41Willy Lowry:Liquid gold. Liquid gold. I will say one other. Take a breath. I'd say one other thing. And I've heard from multiple people over the course of time who've been in rooms where these things are talked about. And one of the things that has historically happened is stuff is said there. And you say, I've got politics at home. You're going to see some quotes from me and some headlines about how it's going to sound like tough talk or something. But we're moving forward here. And let's just keep things moving forward. Well, those rules don't apply now, right? If you say something in a room with Donald Trump, he could well social it out.

21:22Katie Simpson:He'll picture the tweet. He'll picture the tweet, exactly.

21:24Willy Lowry:There are multiple people who have felt that pain, right? And that is another complication. It's like nothing is off the record anymore. Everything is fair game in Trump's view.

21:34Paul Hunter:So I think this brings us to our final question, and that is, Paul, Willie, are Canadians reading too much into Donald Trump's posts and his social media activity? Is there a point where we should stop, you know, taking the bait? Is that what it is? Or does everything he say, does it have to be taken extremely seriously?

22:00Katie Simpson:I'm going after Paul.

22:02Paul Hunter:Paul?

22:03Willy Lowry:I don't know. Willie? You know, but I don't know is a sort of accurate answer. And this doesn't answer the question, but if it's – there may be some consolation in that the whole world is trying to figure this out. And Canada is not alone in being trolled by Trump. Nobody knows what to make of this, how seriously to take his words. Everybody is trying to diversify and re-engage or engage with other countries instead of the United States. People, including Canada, are doing what they can, but nobody knows where this goes. And that is the overarching problem on all of it. How serious is he? Should we take his words seriously?

22:50Willy Lowry:What does he mean? What is his end game? That's the problem. Nobody can nobody can figure that out.

22:58Katie Simpson:And I would say that, you know, even though this trolling is happening to several countries, often simultaneously, it's at the same time very isolating. I think it kind of goes back to what Carney was getting at in his speech. You know, these middle powers unite, but that's relying on other countries rallying around Canada or, you know, European nations. And that's not necessarily what's going to happen, right? This still remains the largest, most powerful country in the world. And, you know, it's kind of like, oh, if it's Canada's problem, maybe it's not my problem. Ultimately, that's not the right reaction, I don't think, but it's a natural one.

23:38Katie Simpson:And so I don't know. It's like it's it's a tough one. But I go back to the British adage, you know, keep calm and carry on. Pay attention to what's happening here for sure, because it matters. But don't necessarily assume that everything he says will come to fruition.

23:54Willy Lowry:I was going to modernize that and say, don't freak out. I think that's the real thing here. Don't freak out. That's our poster. Exactly. Because stuff is going to be said. If you freak out, you lose. If you take it uber seriously, like literally, you lose. Exactly. If you do Trump's bidding, you lose. Right?

24:13Katie Simpson:It gets complicated. Yeah. And I would say you go to sleep the way I go to sleep, hoping that he does not tweet about Canada.

24:20Paul Hunter:Well, hopefully we've given our listeners something to think about the next time they see a threat from Donald Trump or any members of his administration. But before we go, we did get a question from a listener after last week's episode. And I want to throw it out to both of you. last week I was in Minneapolis reporting on the tensions there after two Americans were killed by ICE agents and the broad opposition to the ongoing surge in immigration enforcement officers there that's been going on since December. Cynthia D. Carey wrote this comment on Spotify. It says whenever I hear about you being on location I worry.

24:57Paul Hunter:My question is do you feel safe in the USA They especially went on location, but also in Washington. Willie?

25:05Katie Simpson:Generally speaking, yes. Listen, I think most American cities have kind of an edge to them that we don't really have in Canadian cities. But by and large, I still feel safe on the streets.

25:23Willy Lowry:I don't disagree. truth in my career where have i felt there was a risk to my personal well-being afghanistan the gaza strip haiti and the united states um and that was during the the riots in washington uh during black lives matter cameraman was hit it was it was a scary night in dc but broadly speaking, the answer is, I feel fine. I mean, even you see, one worries about the normalization of certain things, right? The National Guard soldiers, people ask about that all the time on the streets of D.C. It's all fine. I mean, I personally do not, but I'm not a demonstrator in Minneapolis, and I'm not a person of color who has ended up in this country and waiting for my papers.

26:16Willy Lowry:But I do think it's an overstatement to say people should be fearful down here because it is still, having said everything we've said today, it's still the United States of America and it is not, think beyond the headlines, I guess, is really where I'm going.

26:29Paul Hunter:I generally don't feel unsafe when I'm here. I agree with both of you. I actually, this is going to probably be an answer that sort of surprises Canadians who are listening to this. Sometimes in my career reporting on politics in Canada, I have felt far more unsafe in certain situations in Canada, because I've been accosted on a number of occasions. I'm easily identifiable. No one else on Canadian TV looks like me, so you can point me out of a crowd pretty quickly. And there have been circumstances and incidents where people get up in my face and make accusations that are not based in fact. I've had a few of those experiences.

27:12Paul Hunter:It's not the overwhelming majority, but it's happened enough that when I'm in Canada, sometimes I get real sometimes nervous in public.

27:20Willy Lowry:I will just add to Cynthia D. Carey, who wrote, it's a good question.

27:25Paul Hunter:It is.

27:27Willy Lowry:There's no, having said what we've all said, I mean, there's no denying that emotions are very high in this country. Yes. And they're high in Canada, in places and at times as well, as you described, Katie. And the difficulty when emotions are high is that things can happen. And they can happen fast, and they can happen right where you are, and you don't expect it until it happens. And that's the scary thing. I'll say one last thing, if you don't mind. I have found historically here, now and prior to this latest sort of period, the Canadian flag is a great brand. And I have people come up and they'll say, can we do an interview about something?

28:04Willy Lowry:And I'll say to them, and they'll say, well, who are you with? CNN or Fox, right? And I'll say, well, I'm from Canada. And whoo.

28:11Paul Hunter:It's a completely different.

28:13Willy Lowry:It's just the shoulders go down and it's like, okay, what do you want to know? I'm glad you, they think we've all come down. until I say, well, I live in Washington. But it's a great brand to this day, and that helps a lot. Hopefully the brand gets stronger at the Olympics.

28:28Paul Hunter:We'll see about that. Are we allowed to talk about the Olympics? I don't know. I think there's rights issues. I don't even think we can say the O word. Go Canada, go. No, okay. On that note, I'm glad we're going to cheer for Canada. Thank you very much for the question, and keep sending us questions. We're happy to receive feedback and your questions. Send a note. Ask us anything. You can leave us a comment on Spotify or you can send an email to WashingtonPod, all one word, at cbc.ca. That is WashingtonPod at cbc.ca. That's it for this week, Paul and Willie. I can't wait to see what we're going to talk about next week.

29:01Paul Hunter:Thanks, guys.

29:02Katie Simpson:This was fun. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.