New ambassador, unpredictable politics

0:00Kirsten Hillman:In the fall of 2023, Romana Didolo, a woman calling herself the Queen of Canada, drove into Richemount, Saskatchewan with a fleet of RVs and set up her kingdom in an abandoned school. So the town banded together to get the cult out by any means necessary. My name is Rachel Brown, and in this season of Uncover, I explore what happens when a conspiracy theory lands in your backyard. The Cult Queen of Canada. Available now on CBC Listen and everywhere you get your podcasts.

0:33Willy Lowry:This is a CBC Podcast. Katie, Willie, good to see you again. Much as we'd like to be talking about speed skating or curling or hockey, big week in Washington. Over the weekend, big change over here in D.C. at the Canadian Embassy.

0:50Katie Simpson:Yeah, that's right, Paul. Kirsten Hillman, the longtime ambassador here, is moving home. and Mark Wiseman is coming in.

0:57Paul Hunter:And, you know, what a time to be moving in to be taking on this role when you've got so much at stake and Canada is really relying on some stability, trying to sort of ensure that the trading relationship can deepen and grow and how to navigate a president that is unpredictable.

1:15Willy Lowry:Challenging and probably oddly terrifying. That's probably an overstatement, but for... I'm sorry, was that terrifying or terrifying? Terrifying. Good one. Serving as Canada's ambassador to the U.S. is important and difficult and complicated at the best of times. These are not the best of times. I think it's fair to say the relationship between the two countries is probably at its most strained point in modern times. I can't think of a time when it has been worse, if that's the right word. So today we're asking, what does it take for Canada's ambassador to be heard in Washington? And can the new ambassador change the channel?

1:54Willy Lowry:I'm Paul Hunter.

1:56Paul Hunter:I'm Katie Simpson.

1:57Katie Simpson:And I'm Willie Lowry here, two blocks from the White House, which by now I hope you know is, of course, the name of the podcast. Don't forget to tell your friends and follow us on your favorite podcast app and watch us on YouTube. But also, fun fact, pertaining to this week's episode, we are one and a half kilometers from the Canadian embassy.

2:19Willy Lowry:Okay, the first thing we need to make clear is just how much of an uphill battle ambassadors historically generally face. Because guess what? Americans think a lot less about Canada than Canadians think about America. You know, I think I often think it's a it's almost a pastime in Canada to talk about anecdotes in the United States where people don't know anything. You know, I had a server at a restaurant in Miami once congratulate me on the quality of my English. Way to go. And I thought, well, you know, but on the other hand, one point three trillion dollars in trade annually. It's a it's a big, big deal, but it can be hard to be heard in this city.

2:58Paul Hunter:Yeah, especially when it comes to this moment in the White House. Donald Trump might bring up Canada fairly regularly on social media or sometimes he'll take shots at Canada. But generally speaking, when it comes to the urgent issues that the White House is dealing with, Canada is not at the top of the list in the same way that Canada is dealing with this urgent crisis that is the Canada-U.S. relationship in this moment. You know, the White House does pay attention, particularly the U.S. embassy in Ottawa is paying attention to the climate, the conversations that are happening in Canada and those kinds of things.

3:34Paul Hunter:But when it comes to, you know, Canada might see something very, very urgent, it's not necessarily reciprocated by the Americans. And I think for a Canadian audience to sort of hear that and understand that, it helps put into context why sometimes it's harder to get some doors opened and get those conversations happening when it comes to things that might be an urgent burning issue in Canada and not so much down here.

3:58Katie Simpson:Yeah, we are part of the equation, but by no means the sum of it.

4:02Willy Lowry:I also heard from a former U.S. ambassador to Canada likening the Canadian ambassador's job here as more significant and higher up the ladder than the foreign minister, for example. So it's a big, big deal for that person to be that person and for the president to know that that person is the voice of Canada in this country. Willie, you're a former ambassador, aren't you? That's what you keep telling everyone. What does the job of ambassador, I know this sounds like we're dumbing it down a little bit, but what does the job of ambassador actually entail?

4:36Katie Simpson:Yeah, former ambassador of maple syrup. No, but you know, listen, as you just said, it's a very important job. Of course, for many people, it will be their career highlights. They are the face of the Canadian government. They're also interlocutors. And their job is essentially not just to be the face of Canada here, but to reach out and shore up business deals and relationships, both, you know, in the House and Congress. But also in states, you know, they crisscross the country. So it's a multifaceted job and certainly one that is probably harder today than it was yesterday.

5:18Willy Lowry:A lot of pressing of the flesh, as they say. Right. And I think especially now with the current administration, the flesh you want to press, if I can put it that way, the shaking of hands, the meetings, it's going to be up on Capitol Hill. Right. where I think it's fair to say, you know, it's been a complicated time in this country, right? Like, nobody wants to cross Donald Trump, which is why it was kind of a stunner this month when not only Democrats, but six Republican representatives voted to support a bill to roll back tariffs on Canadian steel and aluminum. I mean, look, there's a long way to go before that would, you know, happen in the real world, but six Republicans voted against the wishes of Donald Trump.

6:03Willy Lowry:I think that's no small deal, right? And Mark Wiseman is going to know that, that he very well may get a much more receptive audience than you might expect on Capitol Hill, where people can say, hey, we're going to sort through this. We're going to move forward.

6:17Paul Hunter:And I think there are two key things that Canadians should think about. The levers of power in this, an election year, a midterm election year, they could change. And so the Canadian government may be positioning itself differently because what if Republicans lose control of the House or possibly even lose control of the Senate, much less likely than the House? But what if there is a shift in power? And so it's going to be about managing those relationships and the other relationships that I think, aside from Capitol Hill, that are going to be so that are so crucial. And I know based on our reporting that are so crucial is with business leaders.

6:53Paul Hunter:because Ambassador Hillman had regularly been in contact with business leaders because they are sort of the pipeline to the inside of the Trump administration. And how and when do things change in America? It's when we do see some of that pushback from business leaders who are concerned that they're not going to be able to continue to make money, build jobs and all of those kinds of things. And when there has been sort of pushback on the Trump administration, We have seen sort of some movement or perhaps a step back. Oftentimes, it's the voice of business leaders who are the ones making that sort of headway.

7:31Katie Simpson:And I would argue another important aspect of the job is kind of the intelligence gathering, right? This person's supposed to be taking the temperature and helping the prime minister interpret how the kind of actions that are taking place in Ottawa are impacting and resonating in Washington and vice versa.

7:50Willy Lowry:The problem is Donald Trump, right? And the landscape that Wiseman's coming into, look at the Gordie Howe Bridge as an example, right? You've got the Maroon family in Detroit that owns the Ambassador Bridge. They see the money that they make off that shrinking. So they get on the phone and they get Howard Lutnick, Commerce Secretary, on the phone, say this is bad. Lutnick hangs up with them, picks up the phone again, calls Donald Trump. Next thing you know, Trump is putting out a post saying, hey, maybe we can kibosh the whole thing. That is the problem for Mark Wiseman. That is the world into which he's stepping into.

8:24Willy Lowry:That's the way things work here. And it's very, very different than past administrations and very, very complicated. Yeah.

8:31Paul Hunter:And everything that I understand based on our reporting is that this was a factor during the first Trump administration. But now in the second Trump administration, it's on steroids that, you know, there were people behind the scenes that were sort of helping Canada when it came to some crucial challenges and ongoing negotiations. negotiations when NAFTA was being renegotiated during Trump's first term. There would be times when, you know, the Canadian officials who are leading those negotiations, they would get a phone call from someone of the likes of Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law, who's deeply involved in these negotiations, saying, you know, Trump's in a really good mood right now.

9:06Paul Hunter:Now might be the time to make a phone call or the space for a text message to sort of move things along. There were people who saw the value, whether it was in the Canada-U.S. relationship or the value of the trade agreement or whatever it was. And there were some of those allies behind the scenes that could sort of have some influence with Trump himself. It seems now all of those sort of, we can call it supports or additional help that might have helped Canada advocate its case, that does not exist, I have been told, anymore. And that it comes down to, you know, Trump and whatever decision he's going to make.

9:39Willy Lowry:And furthermore, that decision could change the next day and then change again the day after that.

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10:10Willy Lowry:Katie, you and I have come to know the former ambassador quite well over the course of time, the now former ambassador. What do we know about Kirsten Hillman? What should people know about the job that she did and the kind of person that she was in that gig?

10:24Paul Hunter:So oftentimes this is viewed as like the most important diplomatic posting any sort of person can get. and Kirsten Hillman's sort of rise is very different than the traditional trajectory. Oftentimes we see a political ally moved into that role, someone the prime minister trusts and can be like a confidant and also help them on other issues other than managing the Canada-U.S. relationship. Kirsten Hillman really rose to prominence. It was actually in the government of Stephen Harper. She was a key negotiator with that trade deal, the CPTPP. Which is huge. Yeah, huge role. She was actually back in Ottawa, is my understanding, for the unveiling of Stephen Harper's portrait.

11:06Paul Hunter:And because of her role there, she really has a lot of across party lines in Canada respect because she's not a hyper sort of raging partisan like you can see in these kinds of roles, which would not necessarily be unusual. But she rose to prominence helping negotiate that trade agreement. And then she was key involved in the NAFTA talks. She's a negotiator, a trade negotiator by trade, and was so vital in that role. And she worked very, very closely with the previous ambassador, David McNaughton, who is more traditional on the partisan sort of positioning and moving into that kind of role. She demonstrated her capability to the Trudeau government.

11:49Paul Hunter:And when David McNaughton decided he was going to take a step back, she moved into that role. She's the first woman to ever take on that role. I remember I did a profile on her. And something that sort of stood out to me is that when you walk into the Canadian embassy, there's this one room where there's all of these pictures on the wall of all the previous ambassadors. And it was all men. It was all dudes. And Hillman was the first woman to step into this role, to be given this role. And the Trudeau government saw a deep value in her ability to continue to do this job because she was so deeply connected with the Trump world.

12:22Paul Hunter:The Biden years were there were some challenges, of course, but it was more of a traditional Canada-U.S. relationship. You have irritants that pop up, but it's not sort of an existential crisis like we're dealing with now. And she, you know, she's got the key people in her contacts and like can text them and say, hey, but I do know that the challenges in sort of getting access and getting sort of a firm answer out of people from the Trump administration in this go around is much harder than the previous go around.

12:51Katie Simpson:And I wonder, too, if she wasn't somehow tainted by the fact that she was so closely connected with Trudeau, right, that I can only imagine in Donald Trump's mind was perhaps a knock or not necessarily a knock, but just, you know, made it. Yeah, I guess a knock.

13:11Paul Hunter:Lower on the Trump scale, higher on the Katy Perry scale. Exactly. Well said.

13:17Willy Lowry:I wrote down some words. I've known her for some time. Widely respected, thoughtful, open to the media, which was, I think, helpful for us in our jobs, aware of the landmines in front of her and a proud and forceful Canadian. And I think that was to be heralded. She was no stranger to U.S. television. She was on CNN not long ago talking with Jake Tapper after Trump posted a picture on social media, that famous picture with the map showing the American flag all over Canadian turf and Greenland.

13:52Kirsten Hillman:Address this part of it. Canada lives because of the United States. Canada lives because of the strength of Canadians, because of the ingenuity and hard work of Canadians. You know, and right now that's what we're focused on. We're focused on doing for ourselves what we can in this time of volatility, in this time of change. But we're also keen to continue to have a very productive relationship with the United States. We're your biggest customer.

14:19Willy Lowry:Big part of her job, big part of any ambassador's job, sell the country to America and Americans, Willie.

14:24Katie Simpson:Yeah, I think she's done an admirable job. Obviously, the last year has been incredibly difficult for her mandate here in the U.S., just with where relations are. But, you know, if you look at that vote in the House last week with Republicans, essentially, I believe six Republicans getting on board and voting to symbolically at least overturn Trump's tariff policy towards Canada. that's a win and I think it shows you that Canada does have friends here in the U.S. Is being heard. And is being heard.

14:58Paul Hunter:I also think that part of the reason we saw her appearing on American cable news networks so frequently is one thing she's trying to sell the country to the people who are watching but in the off chance that something hits the feed or Donald Trump or Trump administration officials happen to be watching oftentimes it was left to Hillman to make these appearances and sort of have to sort of correct the record on some of the claims Donald Trump would make when it comes to, you know, different irritants in the Canada-U.S. relationship. And so much of what I've heard about managing that relationship based on our reporting has to do with finding a way to make the point without sort of overtly correcting the president or, you know, suggesting that he may have been given information that is not accurate.

15:44Paul Hunter:and make the case as to why it's in America's interest to continue this relationship, largely the trading relationship, with Canada and how it's to your benefit and how you win by continuing on with this.

15:57Willy Lowry:And you hear from multiple people, and I've heard from multiple people directly, that that last part is key, right? And we've said this before, I think, on this podcast, that Trump has to be seen to win, right? And not only that, as somebody was pointing to me the other day, the other side has to be seen to lose. And that's how you get anywhere with Trump is to make him be able to say that this was a win and that this was a loss for the other side. And that is what Mark Wiseman is coming into. What do we know, Willie, about Mark Wiseman?

16:33Katie Simpson:Yeah, he's a finance guy and a close friend of Mark Carney. But I think that that financial acumen is probably the reason why he got this job. I think people think that he'll be able to kind of speak the language that this administration speaks, hopefully be able to get the ear of Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary, and Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary. Jameson Greer. Yeah, and yeah, Jameson Greer, of course. His background, he worked at the Canada Pension Plan for a long time, rose through the ranks, eventually becoming the chief executive there. He also worked at BlackRock for several years.