The Miracle Mets: Mookie Wilson, Dwight Gooden, and the Power of Belief

31:01So they made me feel comfortable because again, I'm a year and a half out of high school. I'm the youngest kid. So I wasn't really homesick, but it was different. But they made me feel comfortable and made me feel like I belonged. And that went a long ways. And you become, pardon me if I'm wrong, the youngest player ever to start the Major League All-Star game. The youngest player ever pitched in a Major League All-Star game. Is that right? Yes. When you're 19 years old. 19 years. I've never been so nervous. that game it was just what you call nervous yeah nervous heat I was so nervous I remember the funniest thing about being on the off-shot team we had workouts Howard Cosell was interviewing me and it was it's funny now but at the time I was like because I was real shy and quiet you know so I couldn't remember Howard Cosell from him and Mahomet Ali getting to him all the time he's interviewing me and like I'm sitting right here with Klamouki he'd ask some questions but I'm looking at him like I'm amazed this is Howard Cosell I don't hear nothing he said I mean anything and so now they're like Doc so what do you think I'm like can you repeat that I didn't do nothing all the time they said okay let's go to commercial I mean nothing I was just so nervous and then I wanted to get in the game but I would have been okay if I didn't get in the game I was just happy being around so many players that I was and I admired and so when the friend of the kitchen they called down and said hey good though and they said good and you're up I'm nervous I'm more nervous than that than what can you start 19 years old, major league all-star game.

32:27And for folks out there that don't really, can't appreciate this context, it isn't the same today. People always say, oh, it's not the same thing. It isn't the same. Baseball was the American pastime. Basketball and football were not what they are today. The star that Dwight Gooden was, the shock, the impact, it just isn't like that today. baseball isn't televised the same way people don't watch baseball the same way it's just a different universe in those days like the the major league playoffs they were on the major networks channel 247 that's it what's happening today it's like channel 78 and this thing other contracts right so then like when when these guys were doing what they did it was a different universe you got you know dwight doing that mookie is as popular as any mech ever people love him he's heart soul core of team we go through this this improvement from 1983 daryl stroberto rookie of the year 1984 dwight good and rookie of the year 1985 the mets we think might win the division they don't quite get there dwight good has in my opinion it's not statistically uh you know uh this but i believe as dominant a pitching season as anyone ever has 1.53 RA, 24-4.

33:48I'm blind. No notes. Do I have any notes, Gokey? Right? Knowing these numbers. Cole and his curveball. I don't even know pitchers are stopping around and throwing curveballs. There's nothing like a sweeper today. This curveball would drop from a hitter's hug to his toes. It was the most insane thing to see. People would go, ah, baseballs don't really curve. Go watch these videotapes with the white guy pitching. We'll put some right here. It's totally crazy. So dominant force. Now we're coming to 1986, and we're about to intersect the Box 113. Mookie Wilson as the greatest moment in sports baseball history, I'll go with.

34:22They call it number three. Think of every million baseball moments. The number three moment. Met Steve through the 1986 season, won 108 games. They clinched the division early September. Fans were on the field crunching against Chicago Cubs. I'm going to all these games of Box 113. Not every game. My dad sneaks me in. We don't have a lot of money. in my family, but my dad has these tickets because of work. So every time he can steal me in, he's got a customer that's got a son. He's bringing me, maybe even sometimes Dwight, maybe he's putting some of those tickets in the back pocket, bringing me and him.

34:54And here we're going to the games. St. John's party, there's no cell phones and people couldn't confirm who was there. Maybe my dad had a couple of phantom clients that were sitting in those seats with us. So this is the whole season we're building up and we're going to win the World Series. I haven't seen the best win the World Series in my lifetime. I was born in 1970. that would tell me the stories of 1969 we're ready to go here we go Houston Astros tough series crazy Nolan Ryan Mike Scott J.R. Richard Joaquin Andohar all those four pictures were there or was I right or wrong about that or Andrew?

35:25J.R. was gone J.R. was gone Nolan, Scott, Nepper what was the big lefty um

35:35the big lefty was off the shield that's it yeah so so it's mike scott it's no one ryan it's nepper it's the shield yeah right so here we're 86 and and and yeah and then and then now you end up in one of the great controversy of playoff series of all time which gets overshadowed by what's about to happen in the world series because the mats are they lose was it game one lose to mike scott or game you can also beat beat me one nothing. Yeah, beat one nothing. Right, so Dwight King goes out there and crushes it, gives up a single run and lose one nothing. But now it's a question, Mookie, of the ball.

36:15So what's going on with the baseball? Mike Scott in one of these great controversies of all time. So what happens, what happens to the baseball, Mike Scott? That's the biggest mystery. I'm going, my question is what didn't happen. No kidding. I know we had just a lot of evidence that somebody would do something weird with baseball you know somebody would do something with baseball and what people were saying i'm not gonna say moogie's gonna say it is that mike scott was scuffing the baseball was cheating yeah that's what the word was and by the way baseball is an interesting game yeah so people historically tried to cheat and get away with it it's like baseball is a complex sport so pitchers did things to the baseball but the nets now believe mike scott scuffing the ball and it's in their heads.

37:04So game one, Mike Scott wins. It was a game four. They came back and won again. I could jump in. I pitched against Mike Scott in game one. So I would say somebody was scuffing the ball. I think, in just my opinion, I think out of that, it's Shane Guard. Because they checked Mike Scott all the time and never found anything. But the ball was definitely scuffed because I was using the same ball. I mean, I couldn't get him to do anything. I didn't know how to do it. The ball was definitely scuffed. but it's in the same spot it's definitely scuffed it's in the Mets' heads now we get to game 6 it's 3 games to 2 the Mets are up it's in Houston if the Mets don't win game 6 they're going to face Mike Scott and face Mike Scott has not gone too well so far so the game goes into the 16th inning

37:55this is the part where your chest start back and forth is it's been one of those matches. I would say this, going into that game, though, we knew that it was going to be, they matched up very well with us. Pitching-wise, they had pitching speed, good defensive team, they had power. So they matched up with us pretty well. We were a better club, no doubt there. But they had, the X factor was my score. Nice. And I think that game six was a must win because the last thing that we wanted the last thing I wanted was for us to face my Scott in game seven because we had too many players already complaining about my Scott so now we're in our hands in baseball you can't play like you cannot play that's a defeated attitude you can't play the game like that you can't play a game thinking you're going to lose and the question was everyone said why would the umpires do something Why would them probably do something?

38:59They hadn't done anything all year. So why would you think they're going to do something now? Then that really brings about questions. If they hadn't done anything all year, they definitely ain't going to do anything now. So why are we, I'm saying this, I'm not telling the players, why complain now? It's too late, you know. But anyway, game seven is something we didn't want. So game six was definitely a must win for us. And I can also say that's the only time in the whole year that I felt threatened. by another club. On the top. Wow. On the top. And so, 16th inning. 16th inning. Wow. Please. Game goes back and forth.

39:37What's the outfield? Hatchaway. Hatchaway. He hit that in the run. Yeah. I will say it. Billy Hatchaway. Billy Hatchaway. I'm saying it. I say, you know, and I think the game was going back and forth so much. I was so emotionally drained that I just wanted to get the game over with. I didn't care who wins. I wanted to get it over with and start first and then because my chest was hurting just from the thrill. Literally, my chest was aching. I'm saying, this is too much. No one should have to go through this. I'm glad we won it. Knowing that Mike Scott was going to be in year seven, we wouldn't have had anything left.

40:18We wouldn't have had nothing, but they probably would have been the same vote. We wouldn't have anything left. In the Astrodome, Jeff Sierosko, you guys are going to the World Series. Here we go. I'm losing my mom. I'm 16 years old. My Mets are going to win the World Series. This is going to be the most incredible thing. Go to game one. She's stadium. Ball rolls through somebody's legs. We're main nameless, right? We don't. Things don't quite go their way. Yeah. And then so the Mets lose game one. I'll say we. Yeah. That's what Mets say. Right? right so uh and then we lose game two at home yeah my friends are writing up i wrote this whole thing out of like what was going to happen in the world series against my friends and they're now running the counter story as you guys lose game one we lose game one two and i'm sickened right um game three in boston win game four in boston win two two the world is right game five in boston doesn't go play but we're coming home for game six yeah right um so let's take us through dwight coming into game six what are you feeling what are you thinking 1986 world series we're about to set up the moment that is the greatest comeback in world series history period and rated the third greatest moment world series history by some i'll say number one um and mr dwight good what do you feel i'm thinking as game six in new york in chase stadium here we go i thought we had a good shot at that time before games started, you know, me personally, I didn't pitch well in the World Series.

41:47Game two, I had nothing. Game five, I had nothing. So I was looking at it like, man, how can, from a selfish standpoint, I'm like, how can, that's where the self-pity come in. How can they pull me out of this? But I had confidence that was going back to Shane was going to play better because I thought game one and two, well, game one, I should say, I think was mentally, wasn't prepared because of what we went through in game six against last year. So I don't think we're basically there. But again, the rest of it, I didn't pitch well, but I still had confidence on our team. And from a selfish standpoint, I was hoping we did well so I could maybe come out of the bullpen or something like that.

42:25But I had a lot of confidence on our team that come and make hold where we still had a legitimate shot, even before we got down to get filled. I still throw me in the good shit. So we go into this game. Roger Clemens, one of the great pitches of all time also, pitching and I had the privilege, after United White Mets for the first time, the next night going to dinner with Roger Clemens. And so you told me all about Game 6 from your perspective. He told me all about Game 6 from his perspective. So now we're there in Game 6. It's tied going to extra innings. And if the Mets lose, this dream season of 108 wins, 54 losses, one of the most dominant baseball seasons, a team's going to ever have, right?

43:10It's going to all be gone. My friends are rooting against me like crazy. My heart's breaking. And my dad and I, this is the core of our existence in life. As we just talked about in the hospital bed, thank you guys again so much for doing that with my dad. And my dad is in the front row, box 113. Those seats I had the privilege of picking. I'm in the last row of the upper deck. Thrilled to be there. In extra tickets, my dad was able to get sitting with my uncle. and my dad comes up in the beginning of 10th inning tie game and says come on down i have a broken ankle from playing high school football my junior year i start crutching down and dave henderson hits a home run i'm in shock and later as a sophomore columbia university we play at the oakland a spring training facility in some of our early games in season i'm in the a's dugout and i bump into dave henderson and this is only three years later yeah and i said you know dave henderson So he almost crushed my heart and my soul as he's packing up.

44:06He's like, what are you talking about? So I told him this and privileged time that story. So we're there and we come into the tunnel and the Mets are down a run from Dave Hadron to start a run. I go in, crutching, crutching, crutching on my dad, come out of the lower level, she's staying in tunnel and somehow another run scored. I don't even know what happened, right? I didn't even hear any crowd noise. So I'm like, wait, I literally thought the scoreboard was wrong. I'm like, dad, the scoreboard's wrong. I'm like, what happened? Like, no, no, he scored again. like oh my god it's five three and but as mookie wilson would say let's have wally backman coming up keep turning in this gary quarter right two three four in the lineup right and so wally backman comes up and all of a sudden flies out keith hernandez hits a hits the ball well right and he's out there's two outs i'm in shock tears i'm 16 years old you know the tears are well up in my eyes.

44:59Gary Carter gets two strikes and this is proof that miracles happen. The statistical improbability of a team coming back in the Major League Baseball and the World Series in any game, especially in the World Series against the team who's grazed the Red Sox down 2-0, two strikes nobody on to Gary Carter and he gets a hit. There's no noise in Shea Stadium. It's like dead, right? and I've never given up. I did not give up. I was not giving up. I refused to give up in my heart, in my soul, in my mind, but I was like in tears and fighting what's going inside of me. As a fan, I'm sitting there just 20, 25 feet away from the first base bag and then two strikes again and it's drama.

45:47It's sad. Kevin Mitchell's up. Base hit because Daryl Strawberry's out of the game and a double switch. Then Ray Knight comes up. Two strikes again. It's unbelievable. now there's a lot of noise yeah like noise is happening if he gets hit she's stadium explodes quickly inside me now what's present for me is why everybody wasn't believing from hit number one and why everybody needs like all that stuff happened so i'm making some noise i'll always be challenged the psychology of people right mookie you're such a bright light and things your dad told you mindset why is everybody waiting on something happened so cheering you guys on the whole time i was that's the truth right and so it's now it's down one run right the nets have guys you know two guys on base on first and third and up to the plate comes as beloved a net has ever played the mookie walson and sir please take us from you walk to the plate what's happening your heart mind what's going on what happens well first of all no you know how you how do i do in that setup by the way yeah there's a great setup but you know the one thing that you know when you're growing up and you you're dreaming and and you're thinking um that you always put yourself in a position to be the hero you know i want to be in that position to be the hero you know we're dreaming that you don't want to be there no no i don't let anybody tell you unless you're in that spot You know, that is more than no one should have to bear that type of burden.

47:20But this was, I mean, that was my spot then because I had to go from we are down. We're not going to make. We probably had blown this to now I got I got a hit. And I didn't think I could have an opportunity to hit. And I get up there and I got one thing on my mind right now that is, you know, hey, you just got to do you. Do you, which is swing the bat. And now Dwight, as Mookie's up and all this insanity is happening, what are you thinking? Like what's happening for you? So when Mookie came up, I thought we had a shot, to be honest. I'm not just cynical this year. No. Because all the pressure, and he says pressure on him, but the pressure, I look at that situation because it's on the pitcher too.

48:00Yeah. On the pitcher. But before, if I can't, before Mookie came on in, before we got the rally going, once it was two outs. Like you're taught even in the league that the game is not over until it's over but I thought it was done. You try to think of what I could have done differently, what the team could have done differently. Feeling bad about yourself, self-pitting on something in clubhouse. Then it was a hit, then another hit, a wild pitch on something. Mookie came up, I'm like, you know, somebody get back out there, put my uniform back on, we got a shot here. So I had a lot of confidence at that point, they had a good, legitimate chance.

48:32And there's pitch one. Pitch one. And pitch two, please take it i just pitch out the pitch i mean i'm i'm swinging for dear life i guess probably my best bet i've ever had and everybody who not a baseball fan right the the average amount of pitches that players gonna see in a bat i think and i could be wrong about this but i think it's like 3.1 pitches is the average like amount of pitches every batter sees like if you look at every bat like in the season so pinch one to mookie pitch two to mookie pitch three to mookie okay an average of that pitch for the movie pitch five to me pitch six now we're like kind of an outlier back but seven eight movie we're in a crazy situation the court place is going crazy and what happens next movie isn't it first of all after the first pitch i went for my average already my one pitch person hey mookie's a free player player swinging the back picture the last guy you want to see that situation he got us a free swing yeah yeah because he's got no holes yeah yeah And that's the way I was thinking about it.

49:35The umpire, I took the umpire out of the game. The umpire. He was not going to have anything to do with it, no matter what. And that's kind of the philosophy that choked my whole career. Don't let the umpire determine what's happening at that. But I'm swinging, and I'm just fighting balls off. And people don't understand. The wild pitch, baseball, the baseball depends on what they're in Boston or York. It depends. I'm playing with House one after that I mean so Mookie's up and the ball gets past the catcher ties the game yes and Shady Stadium is literally moving it's moving like the whole place could collapse nobody cares we all died in that moment none of us nobody cares right yeah and so it's going crazy and now it's a tie game and Mookie's up please and I'm saying okay this school was tied only thing I can hear I can't hear anybody boo me now and I can only be cheering.

50:38You have no idea how that means. So all I got to do now is concentrate on doing my job which is put the ball in play. And right before this they put a book congratulations Boston Red Sox winning the World Series on the scoreboard J's Stadium. They got a clubhouse guy puts on a Boston jacket in their dugout ready to run out. They named Marty Barrett of the Red Sox the MVP of the World Series. Are you kidding me? That's how much confidence they had in me.

51:11But I actually had some pitches I should have really, and I was upset because I had two good pitches that I should have really done a lot with. And I think you can probably see my show emotions on one of those swings. I'll never get that one back again. Because you're going to get one piece to hit. And Stanley was not, I've faced him before. So I knew. Yeah, I knew what he was going to try to do. You know, so I was kind of trying to take that pitch away. And when I got the pitch middle end. Middle end, which is a left hand is great. But getting that pitch middle end. But knee high. And I went at it great.

51:53And then I kind of turned over. Yeah. And when I rolled over it. you remember when I met you you said that the first time your father heard you curse yes sir you were cursing that much I was laying some words out there that's not a story for another day so after that it all happened so fast and after that I just took off and started running not knowing where the guy was playing or anything like that I just took off and started running and the ball was just bouncing took forever to get down to first base and when it went between his legs I said those same words again so Mookie hits the ground ball towards Bill Buckner first I'm sitting 20 feet from Bill Buckner and the whole place is thinking Mookie Wilson not the whole place, half the place Mookie Wilson can round out and all I'm thinking, I'm a player playing, you know, I'm going to be a Division I college player showing their actor.

52:59So I'm understanding the whole thing. And all I'm looking at is Mookie and Bill Buckner. Mookie and Bill Buckner. I look, the picture's not covering. I'm like, Bill Buckner's not beating Mookie to the bag. Like, this is going to be amazing. And all of a sudden, I think Bill Buckner may look up to see where you are. Whatever happened, and I spoke with Bill a couple of times. We talked about this. And he says he didn't take his eye off of it he just was rushing because the pitcher was late and the question people ask me all the time is would I have to beat you to the bag and Bill and I we watched this video time and time again and we're in agreement that even if he catches the ball he's not going to beat me to the bag and I'm saying well I'm glad you missed it because if you catch it the score is still a tie you gotta remember that but we got a good hitter coming up the whole joke coming up and poor listen i my heart breaks for bill buckner because people say something that's totally untrue yeah is that he lost the world series it wasn't even game seven and the game was tied there's no way you got i mean it was not no way But you guys had so much momentum.

54:19Like, go into the—if you beat him to the bag, or if you don't, right, if he catches the ball and makes the out, like, you're in extra innings now. You have all the momentum in the world. It's Bill Buckner, I think, got one of the most raw deals in sports history. I think so. But that's baseball because people say, well, why is that? And I always give the analogy. you know if you can't find your keys or whatever you don't look five different places and it's always the last place you look that's the last thing people remember that's the last thing that ended that day and that's all they remember they don't forget about all that other stuff that happened before that you know you forget you looked in your glove compartment you looked in your left pocket you looked in your shoe bag but it's always that last spot and people remember that and as unfair as it is And we all know I had the pleasure of playing with Bill for many, many, many years, playing against him.

55:14And I had the pleasure of being a friend of his for just as many years after. And that play couldn't happen to anybody. It couldn't happen to anybody. It just happened in a time when both teams were cursed, for lack of people's sake. And the two cities that were involved, it was so much at stake. and the fact that and I will say it they had the game in their hands they had the game and they couldn't close it out and I think that they have to blame somebody and it's easy to blame that last person that had the opportunity to put into it and here's my take just on a self-mastery mindset level is yes the Red Sox couldn't close it out but in that game Gary Carter, two strike hit.

56:08Kevin Mitchell, two strike hit. Ray Knight, two strike hit. Mookie Wilson, 10 pitch at back. Put the ball in play. You're going to beat it to the back. What in my heart, what that taught me is that there is never a time where something is over. And every one of you did your job to make sure that our hearts and souls in New York was not crushed, devastated, and destroyed. And it inspired me. I would not be doing this podcast. I would not be in a place. I don't know if you guys know this. I'm just going to say it in my heart. I'm on the verge of becoming the first blind, self-funded, unicorn, which means billion-dollar company, founder, creator ever.

56:49In the history of planet Earth, it's never happened before. Blind, self-funded, unicorn business builder. History of the planet. That would never have happened if it wasn't for what you guys did. And I honestly believe this. Probably there's about 20 other things that had happened to you in my life and other people and places. but the new york mets 1986 game six and this is why guys because you go oh well this is going to be like the end of the podcast they should ask them like one more thing i will one more question each i know one thing but the answer is yes because this wasn't a podcast about met history this wasn't a podcast about every aspect of the amazing dwight good and the mucky waltz's lives this was a podcast about the impossible becoming possible about miracles happening and what everybody did along the way to make it happen and whatever and you know dwight you know mr dwight good you know you mentioned hey like there's a part of you that felt like it wasn't gonna work out but you had teammates that picked you up and you picked those teammates up hundreds of other times when you were the dominant force you're doing everything because that team was never where it was without you and i'm not saying to be nice i'm not saying to be kind but that's the case We all have moments where we have doubt.

57:58But then Mookie Wilson picks it up and Gary Carter, Ray Knight, and Kevin Mitchell. And that's what team is about. It's about picking each other from all the things you guys do. And then game seven comes in. You guys are down 3-0 again. I have no doubt whatsoever. Then Dallas Derby hits the whole run and Ray Knight hits his own water. Like, unbelievable. And what I want to know, you know, two final questions. I'll make it a comp happening. First, Mr. Dwight Gooden, anything you want these fine folks to know, you go on and win two more Walt Sears to the Yankees, pitch a no-hand with the Yankees.

58:29I tease and joke because, you know, like in New York, you're the method Yankee fan, but you made me unable to root against the Yankees because of my love and appreciation for you. But anything you want these fine folks to know in, you know, final finals, I like to say. and Dwight, if you could be remembered for anything you want this is the legacy of you want people to know about you not the worst, not the best just what you want to be remembered for by people what would that be? Okay, the two parts first of all, I'd like to remember obviously off the field, I had my downfalls it was time that I didn't believe myself but I guess I'm depressing wrestling is sounding like during the 2019, where fans, family, I believe in myself more than I believe in myself.

59:22Because of my fans, my family, the people that are around me love me so much, they got me back on my seat. So I like to remember, yes, I made a mess, but I try to take that mess now and make it a message. That's what I try to do now. I can't change what happened. I can't share what happened and try to help somebody else. They may be going through those struggles, a family member or someone might be going through those struggles. So one thing I knew, yes, he failed, but he talked to his wife around, tried to mess that he made into a message that tried to help someone else. If I may offer something from my heart, I don't think you fail.

59:56You can call it whatever you want. I don't think anything is permanent enough or final enough to be a failure. And taking something that wasn't what he wanted to and turn it into a message of inspiration for people is so utterly powerful and amazing. And I mean, it's all my heart. There's ever anything I can do in service and support of what you do, even those kids in Tampa and that literally, I am here because of what you've done for my family and my life. And so even in moments that were imperfect, I mean, who isn't imperfect? Who hasn't made mistakes? Love for the grace of God. Go, I've made tons of mistakes and we all made mistakes.

1:00:28But when you're a superstar in front of the world, you make a mistake, it's going to get amplified. magnify twisted and charted a million different ways you've always talked about and we'll get props to george steinbredder and how he related to you and treated you um you know in in that spirit please relate to me in the same way that if there's never anything to do for you mr twyken because of what you've done for my father being on his eighth birthday all of the memories of what you did as a player and afterward i couldn't thank you enough and thank you mr twyken thank you appreciate you thank you and mr mookie wilson same question we want these five folks to know life you give me a matter of fact anything what would you want to be around before

1:01:06i i think that the first thing is i would like for people just to judge me based on the work i've done let whatever i does speak for me you know i think that's the gospel and stuff like that. I don't need to tell people this. I don't care about people constantly telling me how great I've done, what I've done, this, that, the other. People that have come in contact with me, I want them to understand that who you see, that's who I am. And as far as the game, baseball has been very good to me and my family. And baseball has been a great lesson. And I like people to, and I try to, I try to relate this message to people because I do a lot of public speaking.

1:02:10I'm an ordained minister. And I do a lot of, I talk to people a lot. And I let them know that just like in baseball, we practice, you know, what you call it, PFP. butt plays and all kinds of defensive schemes and stuff like that. And all of this saying is that if you put your body in the best position to be efficient and that's what life is. You put yourself in a position that you can take advantage of any opportunity that might arise. It's an opportunity not someone. No, opportunity is always there. You're just not always in the position to take advantage of it. So that's the message that I like to live with people.

1:02:56But as far as how they want to remember me, hey, just let my work speak for me. Don't let me, I can't tell you how great I am or how bad I am. You know, let you be your judge. Anybody ever wants to have a celebrity athlete, speaker, people that are a part of the sports history, these guys are the people that have, they're sitting there eating birthday cake. my dad it was a good cake it was a net they're just loving they're present it took a lot longer than we thought at one point so we got in the hospital and these guys could not have been more present more loving and better and i can't thank you again enough mr dwight here mr mookie wilson god bless the ability to you so everybody seeing what you don't see is what this is all about seeing what you don't see and these folks are part of a miracle and miracles happen every day but it didn't just happen only from the hand of god it happened because they did their things they're not perfect i'm not perfect nobody's perfect but miracles happen when the heart the mind the mastery comes together and that's what these people in the 1986 mets let's go mets here we go thank you all right man thank you bless you yes oh you're so thank you buddy thank you