Tour, Pour, Explore | Episode 7

0:02Welcome to Uncorked, a cult wines podcast. This is a podcast where we take you, the listener or viewer, behind the scenes in the fine wine market. As always, I'm joined. Well, actually not by always, because if you were watching last episode, he was absent. So welcome back, actually, to my co-host, Jay Stevenson. Thank you very much. Thank you. What's it like to be back? It's good. It's good. Bit of time off. Clear the head. Ready to pod. And you clearly forgot what colour the sofa was. Yeah, no, I've come as the sofa today. Good. Blending in. exactly what we wanted, exactly what producer Alexa wanted from us.

0:38But look, this is a really exciting podcast because up until now, as you'll know, Jonathan and I have had various cult wines, members of the team join us and talk about their roles and what they do. But this week we have Han Leanne joining us. Thank you so much for being here and being on the podcast. Hello guys. It's a little bit of a surprise for me actually. I met you guys last week and yeah, things escalated really quickly. Here I am on your couch. Yeah, we're very excited to have you here. So Han's background, she is someone that's at the epicenter of wine culture, a wine influencer, storyteller, and global ambassador for all things exciting and enjoyable when it comes to wine.

1:18And you've got quite an interesting background covering China, Australia, France, and now London. So you're very much a global citizen, shall we say, and someone that's spent a lot of time traveling and having a lot of experiences. We look forward to hearing a little bit around that. But as you always know, the episode in this podcast is around kind of unlocking the key trends, understanding the market. And I think today's podcast for us, you know, we're really excited to have someone on the show who can, you know, hopefully really, you know, let us know a little bit more around what it's like to be on the consumer side of the question.

1:52And, you know, this podcast for us has been a lot around, you know, how to get into wine, how to get into fine wine, you know, what, you know, is fine wine intimidating um how to build up that experience and that knowledge um and you know i don't like this term because it comes up a lot like demystifying wine right you know you hear it a lot but you know in a way i think that is kind of one of our jobs to try and do you know make wine a bit more accessible a bit more more easy to understand no i think yeah really excited to have you i think it's nice for us now to to at least try and connect the dots a little bit like tom said i think we've had um you know a good few episodes now where we've kind of gone from from behind the curtain but yeah thank you so much for joining us um where should we kick off should we uh start with a couple of questions maybe um your wine origin story uh han so you've as tom said you've lived across the world um and i guess starting first and foremost uh do you remember the moment when you well when wine shifted from being a drink to something that was more personal to you yeah sure um first i want to thank you guys for having me here um really um it's it actually gave me an opportunity to look back uh what have i done in the past 10 years looking up um photos to i'm trying to remember i don't have great memories about it um so it's quite um a nice uh introspective few days for me to look back um when it come to wine I think it started from my time in Australia I don't know if any of you have been there I actually haven't no I actually haven't been to Australia either no I'm very fortunate to taste a lot of great Australian wine but I've yet I've yet to travel there oh you need to go there um I think people there they genuinely love eating and drinking they talk a lot about these kind of things loving love going to the restaurant and we can involve going to the wineries a lot so lived in Australia it was a quite a lifestyle thing to love wine whereabouts in Australia did you live I went to uni on the Gold Coast I lived in Brisbane yeah I also lived at the northern tip right out back Darwin and I lived in Melbourne okay so yeah so Melbourne obviously in the heart of the kind of you know big wine country area was it when you were living in melbourne that really kind of got you into the wine because it's quite close in terms of going to like the vineyards and the region around yes yes so uh weekends i can go to many different um regions yeah yeah regions but like literally like i i live in the center of melbourne either direction you drive out yeah there is something yeah yeah and i live in you trip over yourself and you end up in a vineyard drinking wine which you know for the australian viewers out there's a good excuse for you guys to drink more so yeah yeah yeah exactly um and i was fortunate enough to um live in the city i have a really amazing wine shop next to me they offer wset course did you choose your house by how close it was to the wine shop or was it just that's what i did when i moved to london okay nice yeah so um i guess being australian it's just such a natural thing to drink wine but when it's the turning point was when I went to Burgundy yeah because my ex-husband is from Burgundy I really I didn't have a thing for Burgundy until that trip the first time to see his family there yeah but you were when you were living in Australia still yes okay I was living in Melbourne right whereabouts in Burgundy did you visit which which area um he lives in a village no one knows and i wouldn't think no one would really know that village that area yeah but close to bone or more the code than we or close to merceau they are all very close like many that sort of area yeah um one is nearby um and his father like all the amazing french guy french man they uh he has a cellar yeah yeah of course that's the first I might discover the wine I would say um I never had a thing for Burgundy until I had my first taste so it's really um the wine itself is somehow um aligned with me yeah I had the chemistry with the wine you open my heart open my soul I got quite addicted I I remember the moment it's like oh I couldn't believe there was something could taste like this wow yeah amazing that's amazing Would you say like before you went to Burgundy, what type of wines were you drinking?

6:34What was the jump up in terms of, like were you spending a lot of money in Australia or just casually going to the wine shop and picking up a bottle for, I don't know, what sort of price point? I think we always will have parties. I would shop for wine. At the time I was probably drinking more red wine. Because I think within the same price range, you can get a better red than white. Right. For me, if I want to have a good bottle of white wine, I need to spend more money. Harder to look, harder to come by. Yeah, for sure. And when you went to Burgundy, was it a white wine or a red wine or both?

7:11Oh, white Burgundy. It was a white Burgundy. Do you remember what it was? Producer, Village, anything? I don't remember. It was just his father's seller. I went in and I drank a lot of them. But I think that's the magic about Burgundy wines. the chances of you come across some amazing wine is quite high. Yeah, I think it's quite interesting because we often talk about the journey of a wine collector and how when you get into wine, obviously you do tend to start, particularly with the reds, you start with more structure, you start with the bigger reds, and then actually the end of the journey ends up at Burgundy.

7:52And that's when you have your moment of thinking, wow, this is really it. to go straight from the more muscular Australians and the oak shards there. It's a different style, yeah. I was just trying to think, was it as much the change of style as it was how good the wines were? Or you just think they were so much better than what you'd encountered? I think Burgundy, they're just genuinely amazing. So good. To me, it was impossible to not fall in love with it. But then again, I think each to their own. I had chemistry with the wine. I think everyone was meant to have chemistry with different wine.

8:36Because of course, bottles are also very good. I think throughout the years, I've given many opportunities to try many different bottled wine. It just never worked for me. No, I mean, it's not uncommon. And I think, you know, obviously it's something that I've experienced from a young age. The first place that I visited when I was a child. My dad was Burgundy. and that's what got me into wine. My dad loved Burgundy. So from the age of like 10, 11, I did trips to Burgundy and the first wine I ever tasted was Mousin et Blanc by Comte de Vogue which will kind of set the bar so high everything's kind of been downhill since then.

9:06How long was it? 11, which was quite young. But to your point, forgetting about that kind of anecdote, it's very common. Jonathan, you've seen this as well, especially in your experience in New York. This kind of journey that wine lovers go on where you might start up, in your instance, or Australian wine, because obviously that was the location, environment you're in. But there is this gravitation over time that does almost inevitably end up in Burgundy. And I don't know what it is about that wine journey where people just end up seemingly falling in love with, you know, white Burgundy and the great Grand Cruze from Burgundy.

9:40And suddenly that becomes like their life's passion and goal. And, you know, in a bad way or in a good way, I'm not sure. But, you know, some of the biggest collectors that I know globally, you know, they almost entirely drink burgundy almost like 90 of what they drink is burgundy what they collect is burgundy i'm sure you know you you've seen people on instagram or have friends that are similar there are people just get that bug and it's just like that i think there's some elements it's quite a natural thing obviously with with pinot as well and obviously chardonnay whereby they're certainly where when produced in in burgundy they're naturally that much easier to drink you're more likely to probably enjoy them without food necessarily because they're lighter thing as well going back to new york and the u.s distribution which we sort of talked about on a previous pod is i was interested to know when you then went back to melbourne were you then like chasing the dragon so to speak and like it's kind of how did your relationship the access over there i can't imagine is good that might just be my naivety how did your relationship with wine change after that trip i think after that well to start with i'm quite a nerd i i become i became really curious about the wine i wanted to understand why it's had a drug effect on me basically so um i already mentioned i was very lucky to live um in a city next to me there's a wine shop they offer wset course um so that is the most for those who don't know yeah that's the most recognized um body to um give certifications yeah on wines spirit and sake of course you know um so i did W set 2 Just Just want to Was that the first thing You did when you got back Yes First thing Like Straight away I've had this experience I've had this experience In Burnley It's created this As you said Synergy chemistry review Yeah And you're like I need to know more Yeah I need to understand It was like a feeling Of I need to understand Why I've got this feeling Yeah exactly And And also That time was Obviously pre-COVID Yeah It was nice That everything was Actually in person Because I Like By the time I moved to London, I wanted to do WSAT 3.

11:46Many courses, I think they were becoming, they have become online. So that was not the same. Anyways, back to doing the WSAT 2. Yeah, I learned many great things. And there's a way to assess wine. And I went to many tasting events just to try to learn more. But also after that, I kind of realized that, yes, I love wine, but I'm not so obsessed with the... The technicalities. I like the... The theory? I like some of the theory, the tasting notes. The tasting notes, yeah. The tasting notes. The way you assess the wine, because like... The W-set approach. Yeah, the systematic approach, the way to assess the wine, because it's just...

12:36What's it called? The grid or something like that, isn't it? Where you go through each stage. I can't remember what they call it. Systematic. Yeah, the systematic where you go through like kind of aromas, appearance, taste. Clarity, nose, palate, and acidity level, the body. I think it's just like I find it difficult to have a normal conversation with people. Like normal people. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. When we talk about medial acidity, what kind of body, and all these different foods. make you sound like a snob I would say and it's less relatable but I think at the time I was more interested in the making wine making technique right I would be curious to say okay if this wine tastes like this is it because you you went through a malolactic but then that's more technical for me like if I had just a normal person I think it's easier to articulate or convey no like just this is how I think about it I think it's easier to articulate or convey like the acidity levels in two different grape varietals and why that may or may not meet why that may or may not be the reason they like the wine you know because I think acidity does play a big part as to why someone likes wine for example but then I think trying to explain how malolactic fermentation may or may not have changed the style of this wine versus a different wine and that's the reason they like it i would find that harder i would find that hard to articulate many people they were annoyed me i said no there she goes again diving into fermentation i mean yeah i think it's interesting because in even in just that brief few questions where you've just like obviously explained almost in expression how much you love burgundy but then almost probably i'm thinking then you got back and trying to work through the systematic way of then explaining the Burgundy.

14:30And actually, it was just a case of it just took over and it was magical. And you don't necessarily need to get too wound up in the sort of breakdown of why that was. Do you feel like that has been useful? I mean, I went on a similar journey, obviously, a long time ago when I first did WCET, like when I first started working. And I had a lot of experience with wine. But I think for me, what I found useful about it is it did give you a foundation of understanding like the structure of wine. as you said maybe it's not the right thing to talk about in certain scenarios but even to this day it's almost a subconscious thing for me that when I taste the wine I'm always thinking you know as you said acidity high low medium tannins I think that in my head I don't necessarily express it out loud but that's kind of like what I am thinking every time I taste the wine because it's kind of ingrained in you after a while.

15:15Yeah it's a good start point isn't it yeah I think you're right I probably I'm a bit biased just I was talking about what I was interested in because I was more interested in like okay if this wine yeah tastes like this and why does it taste like this was it because you did a whole bunch of pressing yeah or you and then was that more the curiosity of why do i get the high acidity or why do i get the yeah exactly why do you have this vanilla then you're wanting to find out where else that's available so you can then go oh well if i like that one then i know they're employing similar techniques and therefore i'm probably going to like this one when i'm trying to find interesting yeah new wines what was it like for you yeah i think there are just many different ways to go down how people get obsessed with wine.

15:59So for me, I just become more interested in the winemaking technique and talking to, when I go to wineries, I like to talk to the winemakers about, oh, what have you done to this wine? Why does it taste like this? What if you change this? How will this result in the taste of the wine? And depending on whether you like it or not, it's what have you done to this wine? If you like it, what have you done to this wine? Yeah, exactly. same question just ask very differently yeah yeah yeah no I think that I mean we yeah we were obviously talking beforehand and that was something that I wanted to like lead into which is how you really enjoy the the people and the the story at the estates and I think for me that is always the one thing that I think is is something that maybe not enough people would ever experience necessarily even if you're just like you're getting into wine and you go to taste wines and um you know you start getting familiar with your the the owner at the wine store it's like actually going to the estate and going to get the story and tasting a few different wines you know in in premise and like getting the full effect of of what that is i think that that is really when for me you get the you know the real excitement around a particular estate or especially in bordeaux when we've obviously been a lot more than other regions it's like how different that can be just a stone's throw apart um is is fascinating and like how it then comes through in the in the wine um it's kind of like i suppose what you're saying is like how important is the environment in which you enjoy wine or the context you enjoy wine like how much is that part of the culture of wine you know a bit like that you know what's that you know that saying that's you know if a tree falls in wood and no one's there to hear it doesn't make a sound yeah if you drink wine on your own you're just an alcoholic i think i think wine is more like an agent of all sorts of experiences it connects you to people to old memories to new experiences culture history um to me it's just an it's an agent and also gives me motivation to go to more places um i love traveling yeah but you know i you could just travel for the purpose of seeing the landmarks to me that's not so exciting are vineyards not landmarks though?

18:17not too many people I think Domaine de Romney Conti is a world heritage site right? yeah is it? yeah but whilst producing yeah a very very enjoyable I heard on the grapevinder a Chinese billionaire a few years ago tried to buy Domaine de Romney Conti and the French government I'm sure they have the French government stepped in and said no it has to stay in French hands i think because they see it as like a national you know yeah yeah they're like it has to say it has to always stay in french hands yeah it's basically what they said to them i guess uh you know given given how well traveled you are have you found that going back to that point in terms of when you've when you go so you when you look at new places to go you're you're kind of wine focus first is that is that your within reason i think um yes yes so that wouldn't be the only thing i do but i think this year i went to modova i made i made it a day or two about wine and um bulgaria i did something as well and next year i'm going to tunisia it's a bit under the radar yeah I like it I like it really eclectic yeah so I kind of just like there will be all it's the other way around there are countries I have not been yeah I would you don't go there because they have no wine so do you make wine?

19:45no no wine you would be surprised I think all the places I've been to I have had wine in Mexico exactly that's what I mean You don't go to the ones That don't have it Greenland No no but Mexico I had wine there Yeah no was it Yeah good It was Mexican white That's All the information I was in Tulum Right okay Is Tulum known for Wine making? No I was going to say Certainly in Tulum I don't remember There being any vineyard No No I was in Tulum For some hippie stuff But of course I go to Just to make the trip Fun I was always like Why not? Can you look for something? Was it a long way from Tulum?

20:29Huh? It must be. How far was it from Tulum? Tulum? How far was it to the vineyard? It was actually... Oh, no, no. Sorry. I was just like going to the restaurant to ask for local wine. Fine, fine, fine. I didn't go to the vineyard. You didn't go to the vineyard. Yeah, you just tried the Mexican wine. Got it. I mean, there are always wines. Tanzania as well. Lebanon, of course. They've been making wine for 7 ,000 years. Well, let's make this a bit more fun. what's your number one favourite wine region that you visited? Number one favourite Apart from Burgundy Yeah What's the Yeah Any memorable standouts you'd go back any day week if you had the opportunity Well near Melbourne there are many options Yeah Yeah Because So that would be your hot recommendation to anyone like if you had to go to one wine region you have to go to Quick Flight People won't be listening That's true Depends on What I'm into Because some If you're purely For you personally Oh for me Yeah I like somewhere scenic I will probably go to New Zealand Go back to New Zealand Yes Whereabouts South Island or South Which region Central Otago Yeah Yeah So That's the thing if you are just depends on if you just want to have great wine or you want sceneries it's your choice yeah what would you want great wine or great scenery I want both okay so that's why you chose yeah I'll choose what about off the back of that what which country have you been to where the wine surprised you the most apart from Mexico good one Georgia Georgia nice yeah it's really fun I learned some interesting things a lot of historical vineyards yes wine's been grown there for hundreds of years yeah the birthplace of wine thousands of years yeah yeah 8 ,000 years the birthplace of wine amber wine orange wine and actually they make me think like we shouldn't call it orange wine we should call it amber wine because all the wines like if it's plum wine it's made from plum and if it's apple wine it's made from apple and orange wine it's made not from orange we should call it amber wine yeah there is actually orange wine isn't there so they probably feel quite hard done to don't they just have the their name pinched but then you just caught orange wine everywhere I have not seen anywhere right okay so sorry that's another point point being like in Georgia do they have that really like they have the massive wine cellar underground one yeah did you go there but they yeah oh I didn't go there but I went to the massive underground one in what's it in Moldova oh is it Moldova aged night glass barrels as well or something yeah um but it's like so those places I would say I loved it it's because it's so it's part of their daily life it's part of the culture and almost part of their identity they're so proud of it I've never seen a place like this I feel they have more wine shops I've seen to any wine region that the people aren't proud of yeah oh yeah okay I think it's quite I've only spent all year making it yeah yeah don't bother yeah I think yeah I think there's a lot of pride when you go to most regional wine growing areas.

23:50But I feel it's the day-to-day people. It's almost to the point where they ignore that wine's made anywhere else in the world. And I'm like, open your eyes, guys. There's wine outside of place X. I think it's interesting going, we had a colleague, Paul, on, and I think it was interesting going back to what he was saying where actually, about the Loire Valley. Yeah, the Loire Valley where it's like the more, because it's so much more mass-produced. Yeah, yeah. There probably is a bit less of that passion. I think when you go to, that's in the, He was saying in Loire Valley, just like there's an element of like industrialization of wine just because they're mass-producing.

24:21His family business was wine. Not all parts of Loire Valley, but some of it. Mass, mass, you know, thousands and thousands of cases. And when it becomes more like that, I guess you lose that, the sort of, you know, the closeness to the product and obviously the passion. I think - What's your favorite wine region you've been to? Because I've answered that before, so. Most memorable place? Memorable visit? For me, it has to be Bordeaux. but I think the most surprising place I've been of late was, um, was going to Corsica. Yeah. just cause it's a tiny Island and I'd never really thought to go there for wine, but we went to about four or five different wineries and it was just incredibly good.

25:00Yeah. A great place to visit. Great place to visit. Yeah. Yeah. Really, really cool place to go. Not, not far away either. Um, but yeah, I just, uh, the, the dexterity to their, you know, they've got the AOC, they've got like five or six different like proper regions and different grape varietals. So yeah, I'd recommend that but yeah Bordeaux's always got a place in the heart obviously we've been there a number of times but um but yeah just between the left and right bank uh and obviously as as having been there over time as well you know obviously able to taste at slightly better estates and and get better access to the ones that we preferred so yeah Bordeaux I think I often think Bordeaux is maybe under appreciated for what it actually is you know because it is this kind of it's so polished though yeah I think when people go to Bordeaux it's just like it's so well set up and Like it's the complete opposite to Burgundy in terms of like for visitors, for Urno Turisma.

25:50Like you turn up and it's just well structured. You know, all of the chateau are incredible. But they're very well-created, aren't they? They've got amazing tasting salons. All you have to really do is ask and you're going to get pretty close to quite a few of the really, really decent wineries. Yeah, they're just very well set up for them. I mean, Napa's a little bit like that as well, I think. So moving on from wine travel, would you classify yourself as a wine investor or wine collector? or would do you do you even classify yourself i wouldn't be a very successful investor but but like do you do you buy wine sometimes with a motivation that is purely for financial or are you always looking to buy things which are maybe a combination of both um i i have a seller manager so every time i get many recommendations um all the time i will always emphasize i'm looking for investment don't just don't um if it's not for if it's not good for investment don't just you don't need to send it to me but at the end i feel my uh criteria um changes every now and then sometimes i i buy bordeaux because i know i will unlikely um drink them yeah yeah but sometimes i buy burgundy or champagne i because i think oh if i don't sell them i'm gonna drink them yeah yeah yeah and sometimes i buy nappa fatty maybe because probably dating someone from there i mean with this kind of you feel obligated this kind of shifting criteria

27:29yeah so that that really doesn't make me a good investor yeah But then I feel with wine, it's really difficult to see it as an asset. Because I traded other stuff before, stock and capital currency. It's easy to just... When did you get into trading stocks and shares and cryptocurrency? Have you always done that? Like everybody else, during COVID. Yeah, I got really addicted. when i moved from melbourne to london actually i i left my job so when i just got here i thought about just become a full-time trader so i did that full-time for six months a lot of charting a lot of obsession yeah it was exhausting 14 hours a day yeah um so but and you know when you buy like a meme coin like the doji coin do you need to do all the charting for that or do you just buy and it just goes up and you just get out the easy way the Trump coin, yep, get that one in wait for him to announce it on TV and then get out yeah, there are two things one is charting and another it just like stay on Twitter yeah, exactly, yeah what's the hype train?

28:45yeah, yeah you just time it right yeah, but in the end I feel my brain has died just spending so much time on Twitter do you still do it now? no, no, it's a full-time job I couldn't well you completely stopped um yes because after that i i started a real job and right but just on the part-time like you do you still invest i i do yeah you must still hold equity in crypto oh yes i i hold them but just not a full-time trader i cannot do that i i try to swing trade a little bit a few months ago but um it's difficult because i i have many other stuff going on yeah of course sometimes i just forget and that's not a good thing you need to be really on yeah it's quite hard to just pick it up and put it down right it's very consuming what swing trade mean a swing trade oh like um so day trading this is happening within a day a few seconds yeah yeah swing trade would be like three days five days a week right you would be like um yeah not expecting things to shift that quickly right i would set i buy in this and i will like set a price like i will sell at this price and yeah based on the chart i'm reading all the the trend i'm predicting yeah very uneducated myself so then then then yeah i'll set a selling price like that i hope the trade will what was your what's the best trade you've ever done best trade i was during COVID so I just made some good guesses on the meme stocks yeah yeah game stock shorting it was very are you a part of that I did a bit shorting but it was really nerve wracking I don't think I can do it ever again you're part of the Wall Street Bets community like a little bit it's hard yeah you don't have to give out your username what's been the best wine you've bought not necessarily from an investment perspective but just like what do you think is the best wine before you answer that question yeah Jeff you don't mind me jumping in obviously you went from that into wine so wine came after that did that influence your when you were buying or analyzing what wines to buy did that influence you at all or did you still because obviously you came from this you know trying wine australia went to burgundy fell in love very kind of emotional heart driven decision making you know day trading very rational head charts numbers you've then come into wine as actually i feel like buying wine is an investment how did that play out like how did it did how did those experience influence your decision making now i can separate them because when i trade other stuff is so much adrenaline right with wine obviously don't get that they they move um i don't think they move that much i know in the past um maybe three four years they moved a bit more but yeah they're not moving on a daily volatile basis yeah it's not nothing nothing like that you you don't get uh generally yeah swing trading but over like five years five to ten years yeah yeah exactly um with why i i still look at charts every now and then i ask my seller manager to give me the screenshot of livex yeah yeah um but you know i don't have access to it it's not like it's on colt x for free the shot oh yeah okay great

32:02with wine it's just difficult because you to me it's very easy to attach all sorts of different feelings to the wine you bought let's say you know your seller manager or someone in wine comes to you and says i've got a really good investment opportunity obviously they're coming to someone you obviously that is knowledgeable financially is knowledgeable from a trading perspective knows financial markets i expect they would have to present it to you in a different way they might present it to a different type of customer i ask more questions yeah what's it what do you know because i think it'd be interesting for the listeners and and viewers of this like what like what would be on your checklist of questions when evaluating whether you should buy a wine or not i will of course you know i asked about the i would look it up myself about the vintage yeah how good or how bad yeah how good or how bad it is um number one stop so if it's like a northern italian one for like a brolo you go right was 2016 a good vintage or was 2010 a good vintage that's your kind of first stop yeah i will i definitely ask for the chart to look at the trend i'll do i'll do a bit my own research so what historical price trend of that what if it's like a new wine what if it's only been around for like a year and it hasn't got any price trend maybe look at other vintages of that wine yeah I do ask for advice so okay what questions I typically ask it's like okay if I am buying this for investment if I want to sell this wine when do you think I can sell it and how much gain do you think I can get But no one knows the answer to that, right?

33:48They'll make up something for me. So what they make up gives you confidence? No, not really. Depends on India and how... But let's say it was a stock or a share or a crypto. You'd be able to independently look at a chart and see every time it trades, every day, every week, every month. With wine, would you not just do the same thing and just look at all the transactions of that wine and make your own mind up? Okay, in the past I couldn't, but for wine... You can on LiveX as well, but yeah. I don't have access. No, and in all auctions. And that's the main reason we created CultX, because people couldn't see it.

34:28Yeah, that's just like another rabbit hole for me. I'll get addicted. But for wine... You just wait until we bring out charting tools.

34:38You'll be drawing lines on grass. Yes, I'll be doing that. But those sort of questions. So what else? So vintage quality, historically how the price of wines performed. You said obviously emotionally if it's a Burgundy or a champagne, you might just think, oh, hang on a sec. I like that wine anyway. So I'm happy to hold it. Yeah. Yeah. So now when I look at some of my investment, I think the champagne and Burgundy, I'll probably just drink them because the market has been a little bit flat. Yeah. So I sometimes mentally I prepare myself. Would you be more or less likely to drink it if it doubled in value?

35:13oh if we double the value i need to think yeah i'll think about it when it happens would you see that as like you've got it for half the price and therefore you drink it for good value or would you see it as i should use the profit to resell and then rebuy uh it depends it's hard to say what's gonna happen in the future uh but and also we don't need to pay capital gain tax right right yeah so probably yeah it's hard to say the extra yeah the extra percentage points if you if you could pick any wine from your portfolio to drink tomorrow what would you choose oh is there anything in there that you'd be like that if if i yeah to jonathan's point regardless of how much it goes up and down in price if i was to drink one of them that's the one champagne which one oh the donpano yeah yeah any particular vintage oh i think i only bought one was it 2012 yeah yeah good vintage okay good to know yeah yeah needs a bit more time though needs a bit more time how much longer um i mean a lot of these domperions are released um you know domperion is obviously released with with at least eight years of aging so you know they're theoretically available to drink but you know having tasted older vintages of domperion when it gets like 96 90 into the 80s you know they've just become like a completely different beast which is phenomenal so So I think the 2012 for me is going back to me.

36:40Given how much you love white burgundy as well, I think you'd really appreciate some older champagne. Yeah, the bubbles dissipate a little bit. But I think all the wines I bought, they have a lot of aging potential. So then it'll be difficult to choose. You're buying a lot of young wines. Well, it depends on what's available. Because I don't think I have had access to really, really old wines. I get the ones recommended by my salon manager I think they are Yeah, I would say they are relatively young Nothing really old Best wine you've ever had?

37:25I think The one I could remember

37:35again not talking about Burgundy maybe sorry I wouldn't say it's the best wine I had most memorable yes most memorable most memorable a lot of people a lot of people go for the most memorable don't they when you ask yeah because at the end of the day I think it's down to what do you remember is it the first white you had in Burgundy that time yeah but I couldn't tell you the producer fine go on something else was that But when I just started, that's right after I finished my WZ2. And I started going to those tasting events. In Melbourne, there is an event called Tasting Champagne. Right. I think that's actually the biggest champagne tasting event in the world.

38:18We can fact check that later. But yeah, that's what... The problem about podcasts is that people can fact check you online. It stays online forever. If you get something wrong, they'll let you know. But that's written on their Instagram page. So I do not take accountability for that. If anything, you're quoting them. If you've got a problem, take it up with them. Yeah, exactly. I'm quoting them. They have about, I think, 90 champagne houses, like over 250 cuvees at the event. So, yeah, obviously I was drinking the whole night. And towards the end, everything tasted the same. Limited skill level, tasting skill level.

38:55But I just, oh my gosh. That was the most memorable event for you to taste it. But at the end, I did remember one champagne. That was Paul Roger. Yeah, Paul Roger. Yeah, Blanc de Blanc. So that's, I think it's special. So even amongst everything that was tasting the same, that stood out? Yes. I think it's just started because simply that was the only thing I remembered.

39:20Memories don't lie. There you go. Yeah. Well, Winston would have shared the same opinion, I'm sure. Is it time for the game? Could be. Could be time for a game. Could be time for a game. Just live things up. So think, the viewer listeners, think kiss, marry, kill, if you're American, or snog, marry, avoid. But we're going to play drink, save, or trade. So drink now, save in your cellar, or trade to fund something else.

39:55Tom, are you going to present this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can do. yeah you're gonna take it in turns ran away with it there we're gonna take it in turns yeah i was gonna say don't look at the answers um yeah we'll take it in turns right jonathan co on we haven't heard enough from you so let's get you under the spotlight so drink now save in your cellar or trade to fund some fund something else okay let's go for a difficult one uh we'll go pure burgundy comte ligeur belère domain de la romani conti or domain loire which one are you trading to fund something else which one are you drinking now which one are you saving in your cellar

40:32that is i mean that is really tough i mean i think they're all kind of for their own reasons and that's why i asked you yeah no i know that um just trying to buy myself a bit more time uh it's always for the thought process i think the thought process is as good as the answer thought process for me would be that obviously there is you know factors around domain leois which makes me feel like her wines will become more ethereal over time as she eventually from a qualitative or investment perspective uh from both i mean that's why i mean the way this is written it makes me feel like drink now you should prioritize the one you get the most enjoyment out of this is how i've been thinking about yeah saving your cellar feels like the one you think is going to go up the most in value yes right but that's where i've been but you're probably not that bothered about drinking and then trade well trade to fund something else is more not because it's going to give you a good return more just because I would argue that that's like three they're very difficult well how are you thinking about those three answers I'm thinking that as I was saying that lower I think will most likely go up the most in value is my opinion but taste the best or not but probably also taste the best which is why it's very difficult not to drink it now but in that regard I was probably going to then drink DRC now yeah because I feel like so Leija Blair is getting chucked to the wayside It's getting traded because it's done very well.

41:53Right, okay. So it would potentially fund another bottle of Loire. Right. And then I can drink that now. Yeah. Fine, okay. So what's the official answer is drink DRC now? Drink DRC now, yeah. Domain Loire for the seller and you're trading out of Compte Ligier-Balair. Yep. And that's the invite for Ligier-Balair out the window for you. So good, I'll pick that up. That's fine. What did you think of that answer, Hand? Were you happy with that? Do you agree? Disagree? oh i'm surprised i didn't know loire is gonna do well is that other any things other tips yeah yeah yeah well i mean it's so the lalubies loire is approaching the end of her tenure um and her life really so um so when she's when she eventually stops making them um you know they're obviously going to become that much more harder to uh to access i mean they're already impossible to access anyway but you know we saw the the same with the late Henri Jai um so I just think her wines I mean clearly they have I mean we've been fortunate to have a number of them and they're just incredible experience I mean they are just ridiculous um whereas having had a few DRCs there's they're obviously very very good as well you're right in the very top of the market but I do think there's an element more uniqueness to the lower our wines which is what i think long term will just hold them in in that category of like what you know when there's no more produced by her hand then you know it's going to be even that it's going to be more sort of it's like you always want what you can't have and i think that's the most true statement with lower so okay i'm gonna message you next time when i get some recommendations there you go yeah i'll send some charts over not to yeah right you're you're in a hot seat now um something simple okay let's start a similar okay you talked about this a lot so i think i'm gonna go i'm gonna go in this direction so you've got to drink now save in your cellar or trade for something else and we'll just go we'll go with categories okay so prosecco english sparkling wine english sparkling wine english wine sparkling or champagne um well the the only thing i can't drink is probably champagne so i'll do something for the others you don't like english sparkling wine i mean i mean it's it's happening but it got some have you tried it it takes time yeah i tried and what do you think i mean they'll i mean the truth don't be afraid i think there are a lot of hypes around it okay do you have you had a good one i i don't think i've tried many but there there are just nothing memorable to me yeah maybe I haven't tried the best one okay I just simply think and that's your invitation to any English everything out the window everything you're born from Leisha Blair you're born from English things take time it's not something you just catch up overnight no yes I think you touched on a point which is interesting I think what about Prosecco no I'm not gonna okay so which one if you want it I'll give it to you for free so you're gonna kill two oh yeah Two are dead Oh no no English sparkling I'll trade I'll trade You'll trade English sparkling Yeah I'll trade that with you So you're saving the Prosecco In your cellar Oh It's not So when you've got to drink When you've got to save Oh I'll save English sparkling Given the hype In the future It could get better I think so The price will go up Champagne has had its time It has boomed Right Oh right Okay so you'll sell Sell champagne No I'll drink champagne And English sparkling Given the hype And it looks like Your vault of confidence I think the price will go up.

45:41So I plan to sell it to you in 10 years' time. Right. And Prosecco is gone. I thought that might be the case. Okay. Let's go for a slightly tougher one. What about Super Tuscan? Napa Cab? Loads of wines you don't like. And Bordeaux? I will drink Napa Cab. You're going to drink Napa Cab? Yeah. And what about Bordeaux and Super Tuscan? Super Tuscan? it's possible to trade Bordeaux Bordeaux has crashed no which you gotta keep one in your cellar and you gotta trade one I think Bordeaux might have a comeback comeback season so what Bordeaux in the cellar yes wait until it comes back and trade Super Tuscans whilst they're hot when I say keep it in the cellar does it mean like I'll trade that in the future no I'll do that yeah that's probably the answer as well there you go good fine do you want one more why not something slightly more yeah more difficult yeah more difficult why not Meseto Patrice Screaming Eagle

46:58Screaming Eagle I would trade now Meseto I would drink Patrice I would hold sorry sorry what are you trading trading uh screaming eagle trading screaming yeah yeah okay get rid of it do you think because the there is too much hype or what yeah yeah we won't get into it i don't want to ruin my invitation to uh one podding you've literally been disappointed i don't want to ruin my invite to the box at arsenal with wonky cronky no yeah I just think yeah similar point really I think Screaming Eagles had a bit of a run very indifferent around whether it's really a price that's settled in any market I think Petrus is just you know one of the greats and will always keep rolling on really short supply you can always you know lean on that to be one that I think will just carry itself well and then Masetto I mean it's just a great a fantastic wine two drinks I'd just love to drink more of it I mean I've had a couple of vintages and it's been great experience yeah fair we're happy with that good answers Merlot I do like Merlot yeah I think that's enough of the game but Han have you got questions for us because I know you came in loaded you said you didn't want it to be on one side turning the tables you're going to turn the tables and put the pressure on us yeah yes um okay no more tips though giving away my big secret domain tips um okay so um first question if i take don't think about this is this is your job just um or take investment out of the question what is the what region are you most curious about that you have not been?