In short
How historians and scientists reconstruct the Black Death (1300s) while acknowledging major uncertainties—especially what caused it to spread from the Black Sea region into Italy and then across Europe.
Guests and backgrounds
Hannah Barker, a medieval historian who studies documentary evidence from the Black Death era. Ulf Böntgen and Martin Bauch, researchers who study climate and its links to grain trade and the Black Death (mentioned as earlier researchers whose work shaped the episode’s direction).
Key claims
The Black Death was caused by Yersinia pestis (confirmed via DNA from mass graves, e.g., teeth). The classic “Caffa catapulted plague corpses” biological-warfare story is unlikely; Barker argues plague likely arrived via grain shipments after the siege ended, because rodents and fleas travel with stored/imported food.
Notable examples
Estimates of deaths vary widely (often 30–60% of Europeans). Barker cites a post-siege petition from Genoese in Caffa to Genoa (requesting a new bishop and describing “endless plague of death”) to challenge the catapult timeline. She links later plague timing to grain re-opening after embargoes.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding the Black Death
1:02 to 1:34
Explore the complexities and impact of the Black Death pandemic.
“so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?”
Understanding the Black Death
1:46 to 5:17
Explore the complexities and impact of the Black Death pandemic.
“I have you here today to talk about the Black Death.”
Debating Causes of the Black Death
5:17 to 6:05
Delve into the historical theories about what caused the Black Death.
“And she really helped me understand, first, like, why this key moment in our history is so hard to pin down.”
Rats, Fleas, and Other Carriers
6:05 to 10:08
Investigate the various animals associated with the spread of the plague.
“So, just to start, what do you know, just off the dome, about sort of what caused the Black Death?”
Tracing the Origins of the Plague
10:08 to 14:00
Discuss attempts to trace the Black Death's origins and spread.
“And in some other areas, we just don't quite have that level of clarity.”
Introduction to Perception Shifts
14:00 to 14:24
Learn how a few facts can change our perception of historical events.
“Like, who cares if it's from one place or another place?”
Tracing the Origins of the Plague
14:24 to 15:40
Discuss attempts to trace the Black Death's origins and spread.
“that looks a certain way with my favorite pair of jeans.”
Tracing the Origins of the Plague
16:47 to 17:20
Discuss attempts to trace the Black Death's origins and spread.
“So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?”
The Origin of the Black Death Story
17:21 to 19:19
Explore the historical narrative of how the Black Death spread to Europe.
“So, Hannah Barker, this medieval historian, zoomed in on one piece of the Black Death puzzle.”
Debunking the Catapult Theory
19:20 to 22:06
Examine the flawed assumptions behind the catapult theory of plague transmission.
“And so the people inside the city started getting sick and they abandoned the city and fled, but they took the disease with them.”
Show all 16 chapters
Investigating Historical Sources
22:07 to 24:20
Learn about the detective work historians do to verify historical accounts.
“So I know where he was or where he wasn't 600 years ago.”
Grain as a Vehicle for Disease
24:21 to 27:09
Discover how grain shipments may have unintentionally spread the plague.
“Okay, but if the dead bodies, the dead catapulted bodies, right, did not bring plague into Kapha, then what did, right?”
Rethinking Historical Blame
27:10 to 28:00
Consider the implications of unintentional consequences in history.
“Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about what you said before about these small historical details shaping how we tell a story.”
Rethinking the Narrative of the Black Death
28:00 to 29:59
Exploring different perspectives on the historical narrative of the plague.
“The first story is, like, someone did this to Europe and there's someone to blame.”
The Role of Climate in Historical Context
30:00 to 31:41
Discussing how climate factors influenced the events surrounding the Black Death.
“Researchers I spoke to also emphasized that historians have been really Eurocentric in their plague research so far.”
Further Reading on the Black Death
31:42 to 32:08
Providing resources for deeper understanding of the Black Death.
“And then hopefully we can get to that better Black Death story.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Hannah Barker:Support for this show comes from Indeed. When the pressure's on and you need to hire the right person for the job, Indeed Sponsored Jobs has your back. Sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95 % more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed-sponsored jobs.
0:34Hannah Barker:And listeners of this show will get a$75 sponsored job credit to help your job get the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and support the show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? This is a job for Indeed-sponsored jobs.
0:58Ulf Büntgen:Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.
1:42Martin Bauch:Noam, are you ready?
1:44Ulf Büntgen:Yes. Hello. Hi.
1:45Martin Bauch:Hello.
1:46Ulf Büntgen:I have you here today to talk about the Black Death. Fun!
1:54Martin Bauch:Yeah. Well, kind of, actually, though. Like, interesting, at least.
2:00Ulf Büntgen:You had a fun take on the Black Death?
2:03Martin Bauch:Well, I got interested in the Black Death because this paper came out last year about sort of climate and the Black Death in Europe. And I wound up calling up these two lovely researchers, this guy named Ulf Bündchen and another guy named Martin Bauch. And I wanted to talk to them about their research. And I was doing the thing that we usually do, which is to basically be like, let's establish a baseline of information here. Like, let's just get our facts straight before we dive into the research. But then as I was asking sort of, what's the Black Death? Like, what are the basics here? They would sort of hit me with these caveats.
2:46Ulf Büntgen:We have to be honest and always cautious. This is something that happened 700 years ago.
2:56Ulf Büntgen:So the idea that you're saying is that we don't know what the Black Death is?
3:03Martin Bauch:So no, we do know a lot. We know there was an outbreak of disease in the 1300s. We know this was one of the biggest pandemics in recorded history. We know it had a huge effect. So historians have made the case that this caused a lot of economic upheaval, spiritual upheaval. People have talked about it having an evolutionary effect on the people who survived it because there might have been genes that helped people survive that were then passed on. Or even people have made the argument that the Black Death laid the groundwork for some public health interventions that we know today. But, like, as Ulf and Martin would talk to me about specific details that I honestly would have thought would be simple, they'd often hedge.
3:54Ulf Büntgen:Um, caveat? What exactly is he caveating?
4:00Martin Bauch:So, a whole range of things. But one example would be how many people died. Okay. Because obviously people weren't doing statistics in the 1300s the way that we are now. But we know it was a lot, right? Yeah, we know. So the estimates that I encountered for Europe, at least, were initially I was hearing maybe like 30 to 50 percent of everyone died. But then some people are saying it was more like 40 to 60 percent of everyone died, which is a pretty staggering percentage.
4:46Ulf Büntgen:Yeah, I mean, COVID was nowhere near that.
4:49Martin Bauch:Right. So any of those estimates is sort of unimaginable. Yeah. But given how big a deal it was, I guess it surprised me that we don't have a better or narrower number on what percentage of people died or how many died. And I was sort of encountering that over and over. And so that's the show today. Instead of talking about climate and the Black Death, I wound up reaching out to a medieval historian named Hannah Barker. And she really helped me understand, first, like, why this key moment in our history is so hard to pin down. But also sort of why that ends up mattering, not to be too dramatic, but why it ends up mattering for how we tell our own history.
5:44Martin Bauch:A better Black Death story. A better Black Death story. Actually, maybe. By the end of this.
6:05Martin Bauch:So, just to start, what do you know, just off the dome, about sort of what caused the Black Death?
6:16Ulf Büntgen:My mind immediately goes to rats. Mm-hmm. Um, I feel like it was something like rats coming from somewhere in Asia on merchant boats or something, and then the boats come to some port in Europe, like Italy or something, and then the people on the boats get infected, or the rats go off the boats and infect people. But long story short, rats is my answer.
6:49Martin Bauch:Got it. And what are they giving people in your mind? Like, what's the disease beyond just like the Black Death?
6:58Ulf Büntgen:Bubonic plague?
6:59Martin Bauch:Okay, so yes. This is basically exactly what I learned in school as well, right? There were rats, they were spreading the plague. This explanation goes back a long time. But for decades now, researchers have been kind of reexamining that sort of textbook basic understanding here and trying not to make assumptions. So, for example, even the most basic thing, the idea that this is plague, until as recently as the 2010s, that was being debated.
7:35Ulf Büntgen:Seriously?
7:36Martin Bauch:Yeah, like to me, black death and plague are inextricably linked, right? Black death is plague. But that was actually an open question. The disease that we nowadays call plague is caused by this bacterium, Yersinia pestis.
7:53Ulf Büntgen:Yersinia pestis.
7:55Martin Bauch:Yersinia pestis. It can have different forms if the bacteria gets into your lungs or your blood or your lymphatic system. The version you and I had heard of, bubonic plague, is when it swells up your lymph nodes into these large buboes that can be the size of an egg. It's also pretty grim if it gets into your blood and your lungs as well. And the plague symptoms that we know of nowadays, they sound like the things medieval authors were writing that they'd experienced. but some researchers had questions because they were like well in other instances of plague it hasn't spread this fast and with these descriptions medieval authors are they're just working in like a really different model of disease so they're talking about like the four humors or whatever
8:47Ulf Büntgen:this was like miasma theory time too right where right right disease is kind of like a like a cloud of, I don't know, smelling, odorous vapor.
9:00Martin Bauch:Right. And so some historians were like, given that it's a little apples to oranges and comparing these, are we sure they're talking about plague?
9:11Hannah Barker:How do we know about anything about bacteria in the 14th century? What if it was a different disease? So there was a lot of debate about that.
9:19Martin Bauch:And ultimately that wasn't resolved until they took a bunch of old bodies from Black Death mass graves and looked in their bones and their teeth and analyzed the DNA in them.
9:31Hannah Barker:And so they were able to collect teeth from the cemetery in London and test the teeth, and they found a lot of Yersinia pestis. And so that was kind of the convincing evidence that this is a plague outbreak. It is not other diseases. It is specifically plague.
9:51Martin Bauch:So, like, that is the level of kind of questioning everything that we are talking about here. And also sort of the level of proof you need for people to agree on things. You need, like, a smoking bacterium in a bone or a tooth. And in some other areas, we just don't quite have that level of clarity. So, you mentioned rats, right? Rats. And the story I heard, very similar to the story that you heard, right, is like, okay, this bacterium, Yersinia pestis, right, it's in rats. The rats have fleas. The fleas bite the rats. Oh, the fleas.
10:31Ulf Büntgen:I totally forgot the fleas. Yeah. The fleas are key. I'm sorry, rats. I blamed you.
10:39Martin Bauch:Well, I mean, the rats are also, they play a role.
10:42Ulf Büntgen:Yeah, but they don't want the fleas. I should have blamed the fleas. I'm sorry.
10:48Martin Bauch:Blame the fleas. And we blame Eve. And then we blame the snake. And honestly, like, Adam's the one who ate that. Whatever. So the rats have fleas. Fleas bite the rats. And then the fleas move on to humans. They bite the humans. They give them plague.
11:04Ulf Büntgen:Got it. Yeah.
11:05Martin Bauch:That's already hard as a historian to sort of keep track of because, like, it's not just like what historical humans were doing. You had to keep track of what historical fleas were doing or like what historical rats were doing. And Hannah was like, we don't have rat histories to look at.
11:23Ulf Büntgen:Did fleas keep any records?
Read the full transcript
11:25Martin Bauch:You'll be shocked to learn fleas are illiterate. But the thing is that there's also now research that suggests that this is not just a story about rats.
11:36Hannah Barker:We can be looking at other kinds of rodents. We can look at other kinds of mammals. Camels, it turns out, are pretty good plague transmitters. Camels? Sheep, potentially as well. And the same thing, it seems, is true with the insects. So there's this particular species of flea that is associated with the rats. That is kind of the go-to explanation. but there are other types of fleas, possibly also lice. On the biological side, this is one of the areas of investigation, is what other insects, what other rodents or mammals are potential carriers of the disease.
12:11Ulf Büntgen:Wait, wait, wait, wait. Camels? That is something that I would never have assumed camels were part of this.
12:20Martin Bauch:Right. And so as you can imagine, I went into this thinking, you know, we all know that it is about the rats. And then it was like, well, you know, and it sort of it felt like over and over.
12:32Ulf Büntgen:There's more animals to blame.
12:33Martin Bauch:And don't forget the marmots. There are like lots of things about marmots as well. And they do sort of need to know which animals to pay attention to here because it is part of this sort of bigger project to figure out where did the Black Death even come from? Like, how did it get from point A to Z? And that's also more complicated than it might appear. So you mentioned when we first started this, Asia. And there have been attempts to use sort of genetics of Yersinia pestis to nail down an origin point. So basically to look at this bacteria and like its family tree and be like, can we trace things back and figure out where it might have started?
13:14Martin Bauch:And so you have papers pointing to different spots in Asia, but people sort of debate that.
13:22Ulf Büntgen:I gotta say, if we are still debating, like, where COVID started from six years ago, it's hard for me to imagine that we could figure out where the Black Plague started, like...
13:32Martin Bauch:600-plus years ago? Yeah.
13:35Ulf Büntgen:Yeah, yeah.
13:35Martin Bauch:And then, like, from there, they're also debating sort of how did it move around?
13:40Hannah Barker:How long it took and what routes it took to move into the Middle East, into the area that's now southern Russia, the steppe, and then into Europe. That is an open question right now. That's an area of current research. And you might think, okay, bird, this seems granular.
14:04Martin Bauch:Okay, who cares if it's rats or camels? Like, who cares if it's from one place or another place? But one of the other things I realized in talking to Hannah was how a few facts kind of in one direction or another direction kind of changes our perception of things.
14:23Ulf Büntgen:In what way? After the break, I will tell you. Camels.
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16:03Ulf Büntgen:Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.
16:44Ulf Büntgen:Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.
17:28Ulf Büntgen:Rats! We're the rats! We're the rats! We pray at night, we stalk at night. We're the rats!
17:38Martin Bauch:So, Hannah Barker, this medieval historian, zoomed in on one piece of the Black Death puzzle. The small but pretty consequential jump that people believe this bacterium, Yersinia pestis, made back in 1347. Specific. So I think that in that year, 1347, the bacteria moved from the Black Sea into parts of Italy, and then from Italy, it spreads through Europe, hits different parts of Europe in a big way in the next few years. And basically, some people think this sort of moment was a key moment for the European experience of Black deaths. And there's this very long-standing story that people have told to explain what happened here.
18:26Martin Bauch:So the story starts in a port city called Kaffa, located in modern-day Crimea on the coast of the Black Sea. Kaffa had lots of Italian merchants living in it, especially Genoese merchants. And in the 1340s, they were under siege because they were fighting with the Mongol army.
18:44Hannah Barker:It can be called the Golden Horde. It can be called the Jochit Khanate. But the Mongol state that controlled the land in that area, they were fighting each other. And the Mongol army experienced this disease. People started to get sick. And so the story that people believed, the explanation for how Black Death ended up moving from Asia to Europe, was that what they did was throw bodies, catapult bodies over the walls into this besieged city. And so the people inside the city started getting sick and they abandoned the city and fled, but they took the disease with them. And so when these ships that were fleeing the siege went back to Italy, the people on the ship spread the disease to Italy.
19:35Hannah Barker:And that's how the Black Death ended up in Italy. And from there, it went to the rest of Europe. That's the story that was prevalent.
19:44Ulf Büntgen:Okay, so that's not rats or fleas. That's people.
19:48Martin Bauch:Well, it's fleas coming off of people.
19:51Ulf Büntgen:Okay, okay.
19:52Martin Bauch:Yeah, it is. It's very—
19:54Ulf Büntgen:But the fleas aren't going to fly over the walls. Right.
19:57Martin Bauch:Right. It's this very intentional, like, the Mongols get the plague. They deliberately give Italians in the city the plague. Italians bring the plague home, right? It's seen as this, like, early example of biological warfare. One article I read mentioned that, like, this story is literally in the Encyclopedia Britannica. Wow. But Hannah does not believe in it.
20:18Ulf Büntgen:Doesn't believe it happened?
20:20Martin Bauch:She does not believe that this is how plague got to Italy. So people still catapulted. Well, she told me, even before she got involved, people had questions about this. So, for one thing, plague apparently does not spread very easily from dead bodies.
20:39Hannah Barker:Fleas in particular, they will leave the body when it's cold. So if there's fleas in the clothing, then these are recently dead people. So are you going to take someone, you know, they died, all right, stick them in the catapult. Like, really?
20:51Martin Bauch:And people also thought this didn't totally make sense from, like, a military history perspective. flinging bodies in this particular situation.
20:59Ulf Büntgen:I love it. Okay.
21:00Martin Bauch:But more than kind of catapulted cold corpses, the thing that bothered Hannah about this story was essentially the source. So it comes from a text by a guy named Gabriela de Mussi, and he lived through the Black Death and wrote about it. But he was not in the besieged town of Caffa. He was in a town called Piacenza, which is thousands of kilometers away.
21:30Ulf Büntgen:Like in Italy, not Crimea, I assume?
21:33Martin Bauch:Yeah, exactly.
21:34Hannah Barker:He never went to CAFA, and we know that because his job was as a notary. So he wrote legal documents. He was a lawyer, but he was doing part of the lawyer's job that is writing documents. He wasn't making arguments in court. So because he was writing all these documents, every document has a date on it, right? And a place. And so we know that he was in Piacenza throughout the 1340s. He didn't travel. He was there.
22:00Martin Bauch:I'll just pause to say, like, I do really love the detective work that historians do. Like, I love that she's like, I went through all the documents and I can prove that this person notarized them. So I know where he was or where he wasn't 600 years ago.
22:14Ulf Büntgen:He didn't like to travel. He stayed home.
22:19Martin Bauch:But so Hannah's established, right? This guy, DeMussi, is not left Piacenza.
22:25Hannah Barker:So his information about Piacenza is fantastic. His information about Caffa in the Black Sea is not, because that's thousands of miles away, and he wasn't personally there. So as a historian, I want to ask, can we do better? Can we find someone who was in Caffa in 1345, 1347, 1350, this period, who is not only at the right time, but also at the right place? And the answer is yes.
22:53Martin Bauch:She did find. She found a lot of sources, a lot of people writing in and around Kappa at the time, records from the Italians, from travelers, and so on. So she read through all this material, and she found this document, this petition, actually, written after the siege was ended. Mongols were sick, they ended the siege, they left. And after that happened, some of the Genoese people in the city of Kappa wrote this document. They're writing back to Genoa, asking for help. They ask for a new bishop to replace the one who died. They also say in this letter,
23:27Hannah Barker:We want to re-fortify the city because the Mongols left, because they are suffering from an endless plague of death.
23:35Martin Bauch:So there it is. For Hannah, this document pretty clearly shows this story about dead bodies being catapulted into Kapha during the siege and spreading Yersinia pestis can't hold up.
23:50Hannah Barker:the disease is not transmitted during the siege because this is a petition that was written after the siege and the disease hasn't been transmitted yet.
23:59Martin Bauch:So, like, the Mongols did not deliberately give everyone in the town the disease because they'd already left. Nobody in the town had the disease.
24:10Ulf Büntgen:This whole thing is just kind of Kaffa-esque.
24:17Martin Bauch:Oh, a lot of people died, Noam.
24:20Ulf Büntgen:Too soon. Yeah, it's only been 600 years, dude.
24:26Martin Bauch:Okay, but if the dead bodies, the dead catapulted bodies, right, did not bring plague into Kapha, then what did, right? And so Hannah thinks that the answer here might be grain. Oh. In the letter.
24:43Hannah Barker:They talk about the horrors of siege. Right. And when medieval people talk about the horrors of siege, what they usually mean is starvation. So this is a situation where they've been besieged for a little while. They were definitely running short on food. They were very afraid of that. Now the siege has been lifted. They're going to start importing food, right? From the countryside around, this is a grain-producing region. There's lots of grain there. It just wasn't coming into the city because of the siege. So one of the first things they're going to do in order to relieve the horrors of the siege is bring food into the city.
25:16Hannah Barker:what travels with grain? Rats and mice. What travels with the rats and mice? Fleas. So there's plenty of other situations, other evidence that we have more in modern times, right, of grain shipments with rats or mice or other rodents that are carrying plague.
25:35Martin Bauch:There are also other historical examples of plague traveling with grain. And so Hannah thought, you know, What if that's how plague came to the city? What if it was not a Mongol act of war, but instead just something the townspeople did to themselves accidentally in a time of peace?
25:58Ulf Büntgen:It definitely gives it a different feeling of this was brought here aggressively to hurt people. Right.
26:08Martin Bauch:It becomes this like poignant thing.
26:10Hannah Barker:They don't understand what we understand about bacteria and plague transmission. They're aware that there's a disease. They think they probably are likely to get it. But they don't connect food shipping with disease transmission. So as far as they're concerned, what do you do to protect the population? You want them to be well-fed. They're already suffering because of the siege. Bring food into the city so people can be well-fed. They don't realize that that is what is going to bring the disease into the city.
26:38Martin Bauch:And then when Hannah looks at how plague could have traveled to Italy, she also thinks, based on some digging, that, you know, Venice, Genoa, they were not getting grain from the Black Sea region during the siege. They had an embargo.
26:52Hannah Barker:So as soon as the siege is lifted, the grain shipments start to move again. And you can trace the timing of plague outbreaks in connection with the arrival of the grain ships.
27:04Martin Bauch:And so her case is that it's not intentional. You know, it's just grain chipping that brought Yersinia pestis into Italy and then spread the plague through Europe.
27:16Ulf Büntgen:Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about what you said before about these small historical details shaping how we tell a story. and when I think about the difference between, okay, the plague came from Asia through Mongols catapulting dead bodies purposefully into a city that causes the residents of that city to flee and bring the plague to Italy versus another story of there was a war, the Mongols got sick, they went away, then there was peace, but the people were hungry and they got wheat and the wheat had rats with fleas and then the people got the plague. Like, that's just a totally different story.
28:02Ulf Büntgen:The first story is, like, someone did this to Europe and there's someone to blame. And the second story is just, you know, the way life works, that things travel and disease travels and sometimes it happens. And it's much more of a tragic story than a story that is one that has blame as a part of it.
28:26Martin Bauch:Yeah. Hannah said something so similar to this. This is actually a really good exercise in thinking about historical events that happened without intentionality.
28:38Hannah Barker:So I think that's something that's really important for us to think about, right? Rather than looking for who to blame, thinking about how this can happen in a way where no one meant for it to happen.
28:51Ulf Büntgen:it's just so interesting because even when I told the story, like when you asked me to say, what's the one thing I know about the plague? And I'm like, blame the rats. It's hard to tell a story about the past where something terrible happened and there isn't a bad guy.
29:06Martin Bauch:And I think it made me sort of even more than I already did respect the desire for caveats as people do history, the sort of desire to question everything.
29:21Ulf Büntgen:You love a good caveat.
29:22Martin Bauch:I love a good caveat. Because I think it's not like Hannah's totally changed all the pieces of the story, right? Like, we are still talking about the Black Sea. We're still talking about Italy. We're still talking about 1347. We're still talking even about rats, right? Like, it's not like she came in and said, I think this was camels, actually. But it was camels. But it was camels. But if even a couple of small tweaks could make this story look totally different, there could also be researchers with bigger tweaks. One of the researchers I spoke to wants us to reexamine the timeline of the plague.
30:03Martin Bauch:Researchers I spoke to also emphasized that historians have been really Eurocentric in their plague research so far. And so maybe as they expand the scope of their understanding of the medieval world, there are other changes to make to the stories we tell here. I think that's part of caveating and reconsidering. reconsidering. I don't know, an exciting part of this to me is that once you open a new door, like this paper does, saying, you know, maybe it was grain, not biological warfare, that then invites people to walk through that door. So those researchers I talked to about the climate stuff, Martin and Ulf, the people who sort of kicked this whole conversation off, Martin was saying that he was inspired to look into the Black Death because of Hannah's paper.
31:00Martin Bauch:He studies past climates, and when he saw this grain paper, he was like, climates play a role in grain. Like, maybe there's a connection here. And so he and his co-author found, you know, Europe had had a bunch of really terrible climate years leading up to 1347. There was sort of widespread famine. And so maybe it's not just that the embargo was lifted on grain from the Black Sea, but also maybe that Europeans were really desperate for grain from the Black Sea.
31:34Ulf Büntgen:Yeah, so if you're changing one detail here, it's not just changing this one story. By thinking about how we tell these stories, we're getting better questions. And then hopefully we can get to that better Black Death story. Hopefully.
31:59Martin Bauch:If you would like to read more about the Black Death, we will link to Hannah's paper, Laying the Corpses to Rest, in our transcript. And we will also link to the paper that was written by Martin Bauch and Ulf Böntgen, the paper on climate and the Mediterranean grain trade and the Black Death. This episode was produced by me, Bird Pinkerton. It was edited by the wonderful Alyssa Soap. Thanks also to Sally Helm for some initial feedback and structuring help. Christian Ayala did the mixing and the sound design. Melissa Hirsch checked the facts. Noam Hassenfeld does our music. Meredith Hodnot and Joanna Solitaroff are the fact that camels have three eyelids.
32:42Martin Bauch:Thanks always to Brian Resnick for co-creating the show with me and Noam. And a big thanks also to Monica Green and Spike Gibbs for taking the time to speak with me about the Black Death, as well as to Martin Bauch and Ulf Böntgen for just being careful science communicators. Really appreciate it. If you have thoughts about the Black Death, or if you think there are other historical diseases that we should dig into, we are at unexplainable at vox.com. If you would like to support the show and the journalism that Vox does, we would love it if you would become a member. It is very easy to do. Just go to Vox.com slash members and you will get access to all of Vox's journalism, but you will also know that you are supporting all of Vox's journalism.
33:29Martin Bauch:And for those of you who have emailed to let us know that you signed up because of Unexplainable, thank you. And thank you to those of you who have left us a nice review on your podcast platform or told someone in your life about the show. You are all excellent. Unexplainable is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and we will be back very soon with another episode about everything that we do not yet know.
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From the publisher
What happens when researchers reexamine some of the basic facts about the Black Death? They start rewriting history and rethinking blame.
Guests: Hannah Barker, professor at Arizona State University; Ulf Büntgen, professor at the University of Cambridge; Martin Bauch, historian at the Leibniz Institute for the History and Culture of Eastern Europe
For show transcripts, go to vox.com/unxtranscriptsFor more, go to vox.com/unexplainableAnd please email us! unexplainable@vox.comWe read every email.Support Unexplainable (and get ad-free episodes) by becoming a Vox Member today: vox.com/membersThank you!
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