Amy Allen + Gabz Landman | The Songwriter–Manager Partnership That Built a Hitmaking Career

21:35Yeah. And it might sound insane at the time, but it's like Amy trusts because that has sometimes been correct. And she's been right so many times. It's hard not to trust at that point.

21:43Justin Tranter:Yeah. But I think people need to know not to call a bluff, if that makes sense. Because if I kept being like, this person's going to blow up and it's nothing, then that wouldn't be compelling. Right. You can't cry wolf too many times. I think we also just really value each other's time. because like you know every time we walk because we've had this conversation a lot too where I'm like I'm like I have so many demos and as a songwriter you're like how do I have so many demos that haven't seen the light of day yeah and and I'm so when she asked me to do a day with somebody I'm like it's a day it's a day or three days of my life of emotional energy yeah and she I think more so than anybody else I've ever met in the music industry that's not in the room yeah respects that and knows that like okay every time I ask my writer to you know like try this and go So like, it's not just like an hour or two of your day.

22:35It's like sometimes like nine hours of like giving your all and giving like stories. And then like, you really, you know, I think she respects my time with that a lot. And I respect her time with like, just really respecting how much effort she's putting into listening to all my demos and just being really methodical about being like, okay, these are the ones we agree collectively. Like, these are the ones we're going to be sending out because these are the best.

22:58Justin Tranter:So how often of your, This is actually just like pure me, Justin, curious, not for a good podcast content. How often are your sessions pitched these days versus with the artist? Very rarely pitched right now. Yeah. Which sounds like the most ideal situation. But recently I've done, I was just in London and I was there because my boyfriend lives there and he was doing, he was filming something. So I was taking a lot of days off. And then, of course, like four days in, I was like, I need to do something. And so I did a bunch of pitch days with my friend who happened to live in this like small town outside of London that I was working or I was living in.

23:39And that was like it opened up this door for me where I was like, oh, this used to be all I did. Yeah. And I haven't done like consecutive pitch days in so long, I feel like. Yeah. And what you think as a songwriter is like a luxury. But in a way, it's like it's actually really it was really nice for me to go back to those roots. And I'm like, now I have like a fresh batch of things I'm excited to send to Gabs. Yep. I also just like kind of let my brain run free for a few days and wasn't like so pigeonholed into tailoring to that specific artist I was with. And I don't know. What do you think?

24:08It is minimal. I think if ever, it's for a reason. It's like deliberate. Pitch for a purpose. Yeah. It's like we know this person is definitely needing this specific thing where like this producer is exec producing. So it makes sense. To go in. Yeah. That just needs to be a reason. And I think now it's so different than when I first started and when you were early in too, where it was like a pitch day used to be so valuable. That was how my whole career got started. And yeah, and now it's almost, and I know that you'll agree with this more than anybody probably, because I know that you work with up and coming artists all the time, where it's like, it's actually more oftentimes, I think more useful of your time to go in with like a baby artist.

24:56that hasn't broken yet because there's so many people like that to work with now because of what TikTok is where it's at and people just like kind of bubbling up from nowhere all the time and yeah that to me is though that's kind of taken the space of pitch days I would say I agree yeah people that she's like if you look them up online you probably won't find anything yet they might have like one little thing that's you know but like just I think this you know SoundCloud link

25:19Justin Tranter:they have is amazing what do you think so you know that it's been a lot of that watching everyone so excited about new artists again is so amazing. But I agree in the luxury of pitch. I did a week of pitch with Matt, man and Robin last week. Yeah. And I hadn't done a whole week of pitch. Yeah. For ages. Anyway, if you, if you're not a music super fan pitch is like when the artist is not in the room, you're writing a song just to write it and you send it off your, your, your, your, you or your team just send it to whoever. That's what we mean by pitch. Not like the artist is with you. And when we first started pitch was kind of, That was like king.

25:54Justin Tranter:Completely. But also, to be honest, I think in that era, the gatekeepers were more open-minded. Where we talk about back to you, when I sent Aaron Bajak that song, Amy, Trackside, and Micah Premnath were not renowned. Songwriters whatsoever, when Aaron swore that file name, I doubt respectfully any of them were on his radar. Yeah. But he listened and he liked the song and he took it to Selena. Nowadays, I feel like more and more people are like, you know, wanting songs from the two of you, which is amazing, and I'm happy for that. But it feels like there are less opportunities where people are actually considering up-and-comers.

26:34So I would say people need to listen with more of an open mind in general. And it's, like, who works with the artist has gotten so much smaller.

26:47Justin Tranter:But the flip side of that is what you said with new artists. Like, like there, there were hit makers for years who'd be like, why the fuck are you working with someone that we've never heard of? To me, like you're wasting your time. And I'm like, but someone has to break. Yeah. Like someone's going to be next. And I think that social media has made the music business confusing, but also really exciting. like if like new artists can just figure it the fuck out which before if there wasn't 10 people behind them saying this isn't their next it wasn't going to happen yeah to me it's so cool that we can work with brand new artists and it's actually worth it yeah like agreed yeah i also trust songwriters probably more than anyone in terms of identifying who of those new artists they believe in yeah because who would know better than the people that are actually in the room with the talent.

27:39Justin Tranter:Right, we're seeing it. Can they actually, right? Can they actually, like, are they actually singing? Yeah. Gavs and I talk about this all the time because we've now been working for, I guess, nine years. Just terrifying. I'm like, how crazy, because she's not an A &R that sits in the room, which I respect so much. I'm like, we've been working together for almost a decade and she's never actually seen me do what I do in real time. Right. Which is so crazy. So I really respect her for respecting me, giving feedback on, she's like, what did you think of this new person? and I'm like, love them. Like, here's my real thoughts.

28:10And she'd be like, wow, I wouldn't have, okay, good to know. You know, like, it's just not like I'm ever throwing shade on anybody, but I'm like, I can give her real-time feedback on, you know, what that person's instincts are and what their strengths are and what, like, if they're a new artist, like, where they could, you know, whatever the thing is. And it's nice to have, like, I don't know, chats about that. And then when you find somebody that she believes in, and I'm like, oh, they're ready. like their let's go. Yep. It makes it so fun.

28:38Justin Tranter:It is the coolest thing to like, for the writer and the team to like lock arms on a new artist. Like nothing feels more exciting. It is, for you guys, what is, right, nine years is a long time to work together. And this will be the hardest question of the whole hour, I promise. What's our biggest fight? Yeah, what is the biggest fight? And it doesn't have to be one specific fight, but what is, because I think it's important for long-term collaborators right I'm normally talking to people who like make music together or make movies together but this is a this is a manager and a writer for long-term collaborators what are the what's the hardest part about working together and how do you get past it how do you lock arms and go no no we we are going to do this I think we're both going to probably have different answers for this is great guess I thought you're going to say my Monday scaries yeah I have something that we've now dub Monday scaries where all of a sudden, maybe like one Monday, maybe more than one Monday a month.

29:37I'll just be like, what's happening with this song and this song and this song? I'm like, why am I looking three months out and there's nothing? I like just lose my mind. I really do. I'll tell the world. I have it. She really has to put up with me through a lot. What?

29:50Justin Tranter:Two, two, two follow-ups to that. Cause I thank you for being honest about that. So the, the, the first follow-up is for you. What, what do you think causes the Monday scaries? I think for me, first of all, just like general anxiety because this career is so like this. And I try to be like, I don't think about the competitiveness. I don't think about that. I don't think about this. But we're human. We're human. And eventually at some point you're like, wait, are none of those songs that I did with that artist going to come out? And like who's working? You know, like there's just those moments when they break in.

30:19If my songs aren't coming, then whose songs are coming? Yeah, I'm like, wait, what's happening with all those songs? Just things where I'm just, I can be pretty ADD with wanting to have my schedule and know exactly what it is and what's happened with all of these songs and things like that, which Gabs has done nothing wrong with. I would say probably like once a month it just boils over onto me being like, and she has to be like, okay, we're going to go through this little by little and just like, and she always does, which is nice. But for me, I feel like that is like the hardest thing that I probably bring to the equation is that we're just, we're balancing and so is management and ARRs.

30:52But I'm like, as a songwriter, we are just like, it's quite an emotional thing. Yeah. And to try to move through it like it's a business is amazing, which I try to do so much of the time. But then I feel like some days I just get rocked where I'm like, this is a very emotional career. Yeah. It is like very taxing on my like nervous system sometimes. And I don't feel like I, as the writer, sometimes I don't feel like I'm the one allowed to feel that. I feel like the artist is the one that I feel like is allowed to have the emotions. And so then Gav's, you know, she is probably the one that feels that from me.

31:23Justin Tranter:Also, everyone, if you love your job, you're stressed about it. If you love your job, you care. Also, what we all do, even though we're not, none of the three of us are the famous ones. We work with people way more famous. Our job is still public. People can still look at the credits and go, oh, this song that so-and-so did worked. This song didn't. Even though Gab's name isn't in the credits, the whole industry knows what Gab's is working on. So all of us, our jobs, it's very rare that people can see if you did a good job.

32:24Justin Tranter:as you had a good day at your job. Totally, yeah. Normally people can't see that. Okay, so the Monday scaries. Yeah, I think the Monday scaries. I think I would say that the toughest time I can think of is my fault, but it was that there was a period of time where I felt insecure or incapable of correctly advocating for what Amy deserved and needed. This was like a few years ago when we all know songwriters can get taken advantage of in terms of business. And there were a lot of situations that were so blatantly, like on an empathy level, we were good. I was like, this is insane. But I was almost, Amy wasn't scared to flag them.

33:07I was scared to do something about it. And I think seeing her be brave enough to say, I don't care if this person never works with me again, again, I am not going to be treated this way, fired me. She inspired me to become more of a badass because I'm like, I'm going to take that energy and advocate for Amy the way she deserves. Fuck that. Are we allowed to swear?

33:29Justin Tranter:Of course. I'm not going to swear. Have you met me? I wouldn't be able to do this if we couldn't swear. No, but I think that was like a really rocky period. Like I remember our conversations at the time and it's like I also felt like I was letting Amy down because she's like, I need you to fight for me. Yeah. But it was also like, I respect you saying that because that time was hard, but that's kind of also what you and I get, I feel like, for being, coming up at the same time. Yeah. Like we, I think that's kind of the trade-off. We learned together. And I think it's actually beautiful that our careers have grown in parallel.

34:06Yeah. But at the same time, there are things that I've never experienced before. I think a lot of managers are scared to ask each other for help or for advice because they assume you know I thought if I call whoever and say what do I do here they'd see an opening and be like I'm going to tell Amy I should manage her because Gabs doesn't know how to do this thing and so I was always scared to ask for help and that's gone away too because I'm like a big part of the growth is feeling secure yeah and trusting our relationship and being able to ask for help as one but I also think your instincts sharpen as well yeah and now you know that was for me definitely the toughest so period was just like I don't I don't want to feel like I'm holding Amy back or letting her down ever in her career so what it's what I think is so important to focus

35:01Justin Tranter:on with what you just said is that I think a lot of times as writers as creators whatever we want to call ourselves, right? It's, we forget that our manager or our publisher also is insecure and scared too. Yeah. And it's like, no, no, but we're the ones writing songs. So you're not allowed to be insecure about your job. And I think that that is, we still need to be advocated for. But I think it's also, if you want to work with someone for a very long time, it's important for us to understand like, well, now, cause I know there's instances in my career where where it was either a publisher or a manager was saying, let's just let this one slide.

35:42Yeah.

35:42Justin Tranter:And I'd be like, but I don't want. I know, for the sake of the relationship, let's just let it. And I think that it's in those hard conversations, we have to go, no, no, we still need to tell our person, whether they're a publisher or a manager, please go fight for this. But also remember that they're now putting their relationships on the line too. And that's, it's hard to think that way. Because as the creative people, we're always like, no, but we're the vulnerable ones. You go scream at everybody. Well, no, but they have to like see that person in a week. Do you remember the big turning point in that?

36:18I do. I remember where I was. I was like just about to turn 30, I think. And I had a song come out with these producers that, you know, like just like they have been around for a long time and people respect them. And they are, you know, big dogs on campus. And I played the guitar. I, like, did the chords and I played the guitar. And they didn't end up adding. I think maybe they added, like, one tiny, like, synth pad. I think you're saying this kinder honestly than the truth is to already. Well, I don't even know if the synth pad was added. But they said they would. And anyways, and you know how this can be sometimes where there's, well, okay.

37:01So sometimes in my understanding is like sometimes men can be songwriters and then they're also allowed to be in the producer role. And so in this particular situation, the song came out and on the credits for production were the male producers and then the one other male writer in the room. and I hadn't heard the song. So I listened to it and I was on my way home and Gabs and I talked to each other and I was like, they didn't, it's just me playing guitar on this. And like, I don't think I've ever been more furious. It was really bad. The demo, the demo I got was Amy playing guitar and singing.

37:45Obviously they had carboys, but I pitched that to the artist. Yeah. And the producers said they were producing it up for them. I had asked if we could hear it And they said they weren't allowed to send it. So we both heard it on release night. The guitar was Amy playing guitar. So I hit them and I was like, did you have somebody rerecord it? And they're like, we tried. A few different guys came in to try to rerecord the guitar and we ended up using yours. And I was like, I was like, okay. I texted Gabs because I'm on the phone with this person. I'm like, give me the green light to go fucking AWOL.

38:18Like something just like unhinged in me where I'm like, I'm about to lose it right now. So I have this conversation. I'm like, I just want to understand why the other, if the other songwriter in the room hadn't been on the production, I would have been like, okay, like that's still shady, but like why? And they were like, well, he is, you know, sometimes he does produce. And I was like, did he produce in this? And they were like, well, sometimes producing is deciding not to add something to the track. And then I was like, now I'm really going to go in. So long story short, I got, they asked me, they said that they would add me as a producer, but I'd have to sign an NDA and my name wouldn't come up.

38:53and then I was just like, this feels crazy now. And that was a big turning point for me and I think for Gabs because that was the first time where I just like, I let rip. Good. I absolutely let rip. And ever since then, I feel like we've... Your summer runs just got a boost of energy in Lululemon's Shake It Out shorts. Made in our ultra breezy, lightweight, swift fabric, the Shake It Out shorts have a flowy, layered hem and a comfy built-in liner. These shorts keep you locked in for miles with distraction-free storage and a waistband that doesn't budge. They might just be the shortcut to your summer goals.

39:29Shop the Shake It Out shorts now at lululemon.com. I don't know. I needed to like kind of rip the bandaid off to be like, oh, it felt so good to advocate for myself in that moment and talk to these people and be like, you actually can't give me a reason why this makes sense. You're just saying every time they keep coming back to like, that's how it is. That's how it works. And I'm like, there's no sense there. You guys are all getting points. You're all getting production fees. You're also all getting equal publishing that I get. Yeah. I'm the only one that's played an instrument on this thing.

40:02When I asked that manager, that manager said to me, Amy is a session player on the song, and the decision to use her guitar instead of the 20 other people they tried is production. and that makes them the producers and Amy a session player. And I'm like, got it. All that to be said, these guys are nice guys. The whole thing that everybody locks their brains into is just being like, why is it that it's just always been that way? But you know what? I also believe there's a redemption journey for a lot of people that behaved a certain way in the past, realizing, and sometimes it takes something like Amy personally calling and explaining where she's coming from.

40:44And why that hurts. But I know that this crew in particular have actually really changed how they approach these situations. And that's what's important. It's like, let's.

40:56Justin Tranter:Did it make change? Yeah. Let's move forward and make sure songwriters are treated fairly. As we move to a different music industry with so many advancements. I think it's going to become more and more important for producers to treat songwriters correctly and respect them and take care of them. And so that is exciting. Well, it is very exciting. I always say like producers, right, the legislation that needs to change for songwriters needs to happen. But that's a long time. Producers can change everything. I know. Yeah. Overnight. I know. They can. Overnight. and it it it takes people like us who are willing to have that moment where we're gonna be for me like the the crazy fag for you being the bitch right it it takes those moments where I was so afraid I need to be the nicest person in the business because for a long time I was the only gay one here right luckily now there's other gay hit makers thank fucking god but they're not as gay as me for the most part if we're just speaking frankly you know what I mean so it's like I I represent this very different thing that even though I'll never know what it's like to live as a woman in America, which is horrifying.

42:13Justin Tranter:Especially now being a woman in America is even scarier maybe than it was a couple of years ago. But that's we don't have time to get into that. But it takes us willing to be assholes. How do you like champion your needs while also still feeling like you're getting the respect you deserve? um this will probably sound really lame but I got into the music industry because I love music and I love the people who make it and all I care about is being able to go to sleep at night and that's basically with it with it with an easy guilt-free conscience yeah and I'm like in the ways I represent Amy and advocate for her if I know in my soul that I am fighting for what's right I am not concerned about how that is processed and maybe that is a privilege that's come with more success but it's like I at this point I'm like my job is to fight for what is correct and fair and deserved and that's it yep and people can call me difficult they can call me a bitch I'm like it doesn't even penetrate anymore that's it yeah yeah I had to just accept that especially the longer right when you first get really successful it's easy to be everyone's best friend and then I just had to accept that if I'm gonna stay in this if I'm gonna keep doing this I have to fight for what's right else I'm just gonna quit because I can't keep being treated like shit yeah so for me I had to just go all right some people are gonna hate me and that just has to be okay and you just have to be good enough for people to hate you and still want to work with you which is where i my bottom line has come where i'm like they can say that we're difficult but if i'm good enough at what i do and gab's is good enough at what she does like what are they gonna do right yeah you know like no if you really if it's really that bad where you never want to work with me again i'm not good enough to like make that a persuasive thought in your brain then i'm like then i didn't want to work with you anyway yeah fine yeah i will not you know it's also like neither of us are rude we would never be disrespectful and there's nothing that we say that even can be no it's like firm I think that's a correct it's like firm polite but here you know how can you even argue with this logic because so often it is very blatant the right thing to do and I think it's just more and more people coming to terms with treating people fairly in a business where that's not always been the case and it comes down I feel like to producers and it comes down to people that manage producers because we all really are like kind of a product of what our manager is telling us is fair.

44:50Yeah. Really? That is so. We're like all in our little echo chamber of our small team. And I'm like, if your manager, if you're a producer and you go in and, cause this has happened to me with producer friends that I'm, I'm friends with these, these people that this has happened with, we're like, they come in and they do ad prod on a song and then the song comes out and they have publishing on it. And I'm like, we're friends. You know that you didn't do any writing on that song. Why? But if your manager is saying, you know what, like that's actually probably not fair. You didn't act, that's not actually writing.

45:21Technically it's not writing. You should get paid for your ad prod for sure. For sure. I'm here to just play devil's advocate though that I know for a fact very often producers are instructing their managers to do that and hiding behind it. So I think it works both ways where it's like you guys are being told by management and guided and advised. Also it's like my job or the producer's manager's job is to present your wishes. And so that is kind of like a tug of war. I do think there needs to be like an alignment of just like what isn't fair.

45:54Justin Tranter:Well, I think you're very about the echo chamber. The echo chamber of this is the standard. And I think that if you have, if changing the drum sounds is considered songwriting, then as songwriters deciding on the structure, deciding on the production vibe. Doing vocal production. coming up with all of the, like... So it's like, if we're going to all go, that's songwriting. If your fucking snare sound is songwriting, well then I'm producing. I'm really producing. I think that that's just, we got in this weird place where all of a sudden, we all know that some producers are amazing songwriters. These are blanket statements.

46:37Justin Tranter:Of course we know that. Dan Nigro is an unbelievable fucking songwriter as well as a producer. And the list goes on and on. John Ryan, so many. John's melodies are crazy. The list goes on and on and on. We love. But there is a weird standard that production is always songwriting, but songwriting is never production. Yes, it doesn't make sense. Which is crazy. It's just so insane to me. Which is crazy. Okay, to lighten the mood a tiny, tiny bit. We went inside. Because we could complain about the business for a long time. We'll get back to that, don't worry. What is a song in your guys' childhood or formative years that, as I like to say, like ruined my life.

47:17Justin Tranter:Like, like Ani DeFranco ruined my life. Like hearing her lyrics, I all of a sudden was like, well, if I don't write songs, I can't live on this planet. What's a song for, or it can be an artist as a whole, but a specific song is always a little bit more fun. Can you remember a specific song that was like, oh fuck, I'm ruined? Is yours a Robbie Williams song? No, I actually, no, no, no. I was going to say, funnily enough, like Amy likes to joke that she's number two Amy to me because Amy Winehouse will always be number one. I mean, that's fair. If you have to be a number two to anyone, it's better be Amy.

47:51I really love Amy Winehouse. I think her song Take the Box probably would be my answer. This is so hard. I know Robbie has to be your close second. Amy Winehouse and Robbie Williams are basically the same thing. Often in the same category, yeah. I think Mine is Strong Enough by Sheryl Crow. it's just like I like hurt when I hear that song but you're so young how old were you when you heard that song my dad is like a huge Cheryl fan so he's been I don't know when that album came out maybe like 94 I'm a huge Cheryl fan so he was playing that like always in the car I probably heard that for the first time when I was like 6 or 7 but I just like I've always gravitated towards that song and I just and then hearing Toxic And I was like, whoa.

48:40That's a perfectly written song. I can't believe you of the two of us are saying, what's happening to that? The biggest Britney fan of all time. What's going on?

48:48Justin Tranter:You know, Britney's Blackout, which was Britney's Blackout and Gwen's Love Angel Music Baby, because I was such, I was a theater snob as a kid. Yeah. And then I was like a rock and roll snob as like a hipster in Brooklyn. Yeah. Love Angel Music Baby and Blackout were the first two times I was like, oh wait, so pop music isn't just the super cheesy stuff. Yes. Pop music can be commenting on culture and society and can be dark and fucked up. It is, it is, I mean, Britney is, her, the catalog is shocking. So deep. And Kathy Dennis who wrote Toxic. Of course. Unbelievable. Toxic. I Kissed a Girl. Yeah.

49:29Justin Tranter:Can't Get You Out of My Head. Like the amount of songs that she has written that are like the defining song. Like informed pop. Oh. culture and radio for so long. She also has an amazing artist project herself. Oh, sorry, but yeah. As a homosexual born in 1980, I'm fully aware. How does the definition of success change for you both now that you have reached the success that we all, any aspiring musician or music executive, obviously such a privilege to have the definition of success change. but I know success has changed for me. How has success changed for you guys? I mean, I used to define success so much by comparison to others.

50:17And look, you know, I came to LA 10 years ago and everyone has a million plaques around their office. It was just crazy. And I was like, oh my God, what am I doing wrong? And I think nowadays it's like, to me, success is in knowing my clients are happy and inspired and driven. And that's kind of it to me. It's like not about, obviously it was when Amy won that Grammy, it was an incredible, incredible achievement. I'm not going to say, oh, that doesn't define success. But I really think making sure people are actually happy and feel your attention and like you're doing great work for them. That's kind of it.

50:57Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. It's like private success. Yeah. Yeah. We always, we all romanticize public success because that's all that we are shown. Yeah. And then like knowing that your clients are happy privately is the real win. Like the public success is really cool. Such a privilege to say it's actually not, it's about something more than that. But you kind of only get to experience that once you have the public success. That's a really good way of putting it. Yeah. I feel like the luxury that I have felt at least from like the past couple of years of whatever we've been doing like working in any capacity is that I feel like for a really long time I was like really head down and like wasn't as focused in like having a good quality of life outside of my work for the first few years of this.

51:49Um, and now I feel like my definition of success, I guess, of course, it's like really cool to get an accolade. Like, of course it is. Or to like do a catalog sale. hopefully one day that would feel like a version of success of course to me but i think right now

52:06Justin Tranter:it's have you not have you not done catalog sale yet oh girl that's gonna be fun i haven't get ready would i not interrupt you but it is exciting and it's total inside base so i think people love it what's really to me what was really cool about i did one catalog sale signed the papers like two days before lockdown wow the timing was kind of crazy but it is really you get to look at like the nuts and bolts of the business in a way that you don't from just a normal publishing deal. In the sale, you really get to see people quantifying what you've done and what it will be. And a lot of times it's not like the song that had the biggest chart success that actually is worth the most money.

52:46Justin Tranter:It's so weird. And it gives you like perspective in different ways of like, oh wait, what are people actually holding onto for the longterm? It wasn't the song that went crazy for two months. It's just like, you're going to have. Well, we'll see if it ever happens. It's just an interesting learning experience, I would say. It shows you a side of the business that as writers and creatives, we don't normally get to see. I actually encourage songwriters in general to look at their publishing statements because I think when people, you know, often people have their business manager look, understandably, but it's like getting a sense of which ones of your songs are performing best, I think can be very surprising to people and also inform what they say yes to moving yeah forward too yeah a huge thing i noticed in my first catalog sale was um songs with mainly organic instruments do so much better in the long term yeah and as someone who came from a rock band of only organic instruments yeah that's really interesting it made me feel like really happy like as a music school geek i was like oh in the Because all the super trendy sounds, for the most part, are not organic.

53:55Yeah. And they age way more than an organic sound, obviously.

53:58Justin Tranter:So like Justin Bieber's Sorry, even though I'm very, very proud of that song, it actually was financially worth a lot less than something like Cake by the Ocean or something like Imagine Dragons Believer. That makes sense. Because those sonic sounds in Sorry were so amazing. No shade, like really progressive, cool sounds. They're so dated now. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a really cool part of the Cadillac sale. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. But I interrupted you. So my apologies. I don't know. All I was going to say is like. Personal. Yeah. It's like now having the luxury to be like, oh, I could go take a week and a half off and like go camping and do something.

54:33Like I just was camping this weekend in Sedona and I took like four days off to do it. And I don't know, maybe if like three years ago or two years ago, I would have, I have been really bad at taking time off. Like that's been notoriously. Yeah. I know you're like, we love to work. I love to work. And I feel like the family I grew up in was like, you work and you like get, you succeed. And then you like later. So later feel good and reap the benefits.

54:56Justin Tranter:Vacation when you're almost dead. Yes, right. Yeah, go camping when you can barely walk. Begging Amy to go on vacation. But I think success to me now has been like, oh, I actually feel like I've kind of started to release FOMO a little bit. And I'm like, okay, I feel really confident in what I bring into rooms when I go into them. and I can say no to things and I can enjoy my life as my life is lifing in the moment and not be like, I'll get there eventually and enjoy it. So that's what I've been feeling like, okay, I feel successful just in and of the sense that I'm like, I can take a long weekend and not feel riddled with guilt.

55:31Justin Tranter:Yeah. That's yeah. I took a two week vacation this summer and that's the longest vacation I've ever taken in my entire adult life. And I thought I was going to like start to panic a weekend and I was actually just great. That's been a new thing for me too. When I have taken like a week-long vacation. I'm like, I'm not thinking about work at all. Yeah. I feel great. It's so, there was like one, one song that I am very excited about that's, that's coming out soon that like needed all these tweaks while I was on vacation. And I was like, no. Yeah. I was like, oh my God, I just said no. I know. Who am I?

56:00Justin Tranter:Okay. I get that. We're almost at the end. Okay. We're going to play a little game. Okay. Called gag or drag. So gag is that you love this thing. Drag is you hate it. Drag it. It's terrible. Okay. Okay. Label meetings. Just as a whole. Do we go back and forth? You each answer. You each answer. Gag. You love a label meeting. No, sorry, drag. Drag. I was thinking gag. Yeah, old school gag. Yeah, yeah. Gag. Gag. It's drag. It's drag. You hate a label meeting. I feel I'm professionally obligated to say gag. You love it. You love it. Gag. It's everything. I just love a meeting. Yeah, I get that. into it.

56:41Justin Tranter:Yeah. But you're such a good people, hence everything here. I'm like, you're so good at that shit. I do love a meeting. You're so good at it. And you can tell that you love it because it's natural. I just love talking. It's so fun. I love that for you. Okay. Gag or drag. Again, gag is love. Drag is we hate. A &R notes. Drag. Love it. Come on, gals. You love giving notes. I actually don't. She means other A &R notes. No, no. If I have a really strong gut thing, I'll tell you. But I don't like it. Especially when people ask about production. I'm like, she don't know. You don't give me a lot of notes.

57:18But I feel like when you. If I feel strongly. Yeah. Do I want to deal with labels sending a million things through though? Definitely drag for me. Perfect. Massive drag.

57:28Justin Tranter:Yeah. Sorry. Someone walking into. This is a little bit more for Amy because you don't do sessions. But someone walking into a session with like a fully formed idea.

57:43oh I feel obligated to say gag because I should be supportive of that I know here's the thing I I feel like we all have this little twinge of like guard up a little bit when somebody brings in a very fully formed idea because you're like wait we're here to be collaborators like I want to start with you I want to like do this but there have definitely been moments in my career where somebody brings something in for the first like split second I'm like oh and then I'm like it's pretty good pretty good I still prefer to go from scratch with the person

58:13Justin Tranter:yeah I will say my answer to that is gag if the thing they brought in is really good and I'm like oh so you want me to just like tweak the verse yeah sick totally I get that but then it's like drag I hate you drag because if it's really bad then it's so awkward the pivot out is horrific the pivot out of being like thank you so much for playing that yeah it's really really hard writing camps drag i am a warner chapel employee through and through i'm gonna say gag have you heard of vegas you had a great time at the vegas i've gone to the vegas camp probably like three or four years we missed you this year yeah you were missed i was with rose gray in london so valid i was out of the country love there's nothing i could do yeah um the phrase we'll know it when we hear it for this is inside baseball for anyone listening a lot of times when a and r's or managers are looking for songs for someone and you say oh what what's the vibe and they'll go we know it when we hear it infuriating what's below drag what is below drag yeah like we were gonna for a while start like a thread or an instagram handle that's private of like a finsta of cropped things that people send out of their briefs it's literally insane oh my god some of them are just like big massive hit huge chorus undeniable chorus huge yeah just like i love when they're like said 15 times and you've not mentioned one reference no i love when they say um just hooky yeah and you're like so you're asking pop songwriters you just wanted to make sure that we sent you something like we were going to something not intentionally not hooky it is yeah that we know but i think the the truth in it is actually it always is we'll know it when we hear it Yeah.

1:00:03Because half the time - You need to tell them what they want.

1:00:05Justin Tranter:Exactly. But you have to like - It's still an infuriating note. Oh, it's insane. The note should just be, we think you're phenomenal, Justin. Do what your heart tells you. Yeah. That would be way better. That would be really helpful. You tell me. Songs that get placed that you don't even remember. And that is for both of you because one of her co-writers could send a song that you don't even remember. Oh, I thought we were trying to name them. I was like, don't remember. Okay, this is still gagger drag. Yeah. I'm going to say gag. Yeah. Massive gag. Yeah, like thank God. That's like my favorite moment from Gabs when she's just like, I just placed a song from eight years ago.

1:00:40I'm like, that is huge. How do you even remember that?

1:00:45Justin Tranter:Text from an artist or manager that says, hey, can I call you in a few with no context? I actually just anyone on the planet texting. Can I call you? Anybody. That's the biggest drag of all time. Oh my God. anxiety you called me even worse yeah yeah or even just like a text that's like hi oh so you're you i have to engage with this before i know if i want to engage with this um a producer fully changing the production drag was that not the whole thing it wasn't yeah i love it no no a producer fully changing the production without consulting any of the biggest drag drag drag drag i'm gonna say drag i didn't suffer it personally how many times do you think in your career versus not do you think ratio wise the producer has like fully re-harmed the chords under the song and it's been better never like maybe one time in my life yeah never never yeah i can maybe think sometimes with matt man and robin because we have very similar tastes They're so very musical.

1:01:55They're great chordal-y. But like.

1:01:57Justin Tranter:But it's other people really, when they're like, hey, I changed the chords on this. Death of death. Or I changed the entire groove. It normally makes me want to die. Or like when a song comes out and like the whole bridge has been deleted. I just wish in general, sorry, side note, but that produces involved songwriters' opinions as much as they take to heart label A &R's opinions and notes. Can you say that again? We need a big one to use this year. Yeah. I think that would be great. With a lot of the gags and drags we've run through. Yep. People who insist on handwriting their lyrics in sessions.

1:02:32Justin Tranter:I don't think you do. Do you? No. I tried it for like two days and I was like, who am I? What am I trying to prove? This is insane. I'm going to be using the eraser more than the fucking front of the pencil. And like my hand hurts. It's just not functional. It's like little, I get a few people want to jot ideas, but I've been with people who insist on the phone, especially if you're not the artist. If the artist, if that's how they want to do it, it is what it is. I get that, because then if the song ends up coming out and they want to have their cue. For us, not functional, not efficient. I don't even bring a computer.

1:03:08Justin Tranter:It's all on my phone. I used to do a computer way back in the day, and I was like, who did I think I was? Bringing this stuff. Just tapping, like what? um ooh starting a song this is more for you Amy sorry sorry Gabs title first songwriting well actually no this can be for you because sometimes publishers and managers are like there's like a list of titles I don't like it yeah sorry drag drag I only like it if the title that they have has like the line that goes with the title do you know what I mean yep if it's like basically the fully formed concept the thoughts yep love that of how to walk into the title If somebody's just like corkscrew, I'm like, absolutely no way.

1:03:49There's just no way. I'm not sure why. Like an arbitrary object. I'm like, no.

1:03:52Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah, there is a lot of, when it comes to title first writing, a lot of times it is an object. People will be like, I don't know what I was thinking with this, but like cone. I'm like, what? I don't know what I was thinking, but like badminton. Yeah, exactly. Okay, the phrase top liner. Hate. Drag, sorry. Yeah. Drag. Big drag. Big drag. Ghost writer, drag. Drag. Top liner, drag. Drag. The top liner for context, when we started saying that all producers were songwriters, we had to like separate the difference between a producer who writes, even though they, for the most part, aren't writing lyric or melody, versus a songwriter who writes, who is writing all the lyric and melody.

1:04:38Justin Tranter:So people started calling songwriters instead of songwriters, top liners. As if we like don't know how to play chords. Or just like as if writing the entire lyric and melody isn't. Isn't songwriting. Isn't songwriting. Hate drag. Songwriters not getting points. Drag. Drag. Yeah, don't even need to answer that. Songwriters not getting fees. Drag. Love it. Love it. Okay. Famous last words. If there is one piece of advice that each of you could give to our lovely future listeners, because this podcast hasn't been released yet. In terms of collaboration, and for you guys, because this is a songwriter-manager collaboration, what is one piece of advice you would give to someone about a successful, healthy, flourishing, creative manager relationship?

1:05:35You go first. I think because of my success and dynamic with Amy a lot of aspiring songwriters reach out to me to manage them and I'm like you would be so much better served finding the gaps to you or Amy because that era that we met we were in very different places in our career and it's a bit like what we talked about earlier about going with your biggest believer I think not chasing and having like your own crew is really really important I don't know if I articulated that particularly well but no I think that's it I fully agree with that Like not just going for like the big name manager because.

1:06:14Justin Tranter:They have a big name. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Yeah. I think, yeah, that's basically, it just generally comparing less, caring less about clout, finding people that are in it for the right reasons. That's kind of it. And believing in talent. Yeah. Yeah. I would say, and this is funny for us because we do have sometimes really varying taste in music, which is interesting. but for the most part her and we always agree on like what a great song is we might not disagree on like if she pitches x y and z for something i'm like not that demo like i hate that song and she's like i love but for the most part we can agree on like what a really great thing is so i think being able to at least identify with your person that is your champion that you both can agree on like something that feels real and great because you're gonna be hopefully with that person for a really long time.

1:07:05And, you know, it's really beneficial if you guys can like be on common ground about what you're excited about. Yeah. And also just like love them as a person.

1:07:13Justin Tranter:Yeah. I think it would be really sad for Gabs and I, if we'd been together for nine years and I like didn't want to hang out or ever see Gabs, you know, like I love Gabs and that is what I think breeds like this mutual respect and why we're always working for each other to like lift each other up. And yeah, I don't know. It's a huge deal to like pick your person as a manager or as a writer, if you're a manager. And I think it's like a very holistic approach is works in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. And like, for me, the the big piece of it, because we've never had a manager, creative duo on the podcast before.

1:07:48Justin Tranter:So I'm going to give my advice, I'm going to ask myself my advice, which is you have to be willing to be honest about the hard stuff, about what you disagree on. If you aren't honest about that early in the relationship, it's really hard to correct it. Yep. It's like that with any relationship. Any relationship. And it's, that's the biggest mistakes I ever made with a manager was that I was so scared and desperate, even with publishers too with with just business associates right like I was so scared and so desperate early on that I wouldn't be honest about things I didn't like that when all of a sudden I wanted to say those things five years in yeah it felt weird it seemed I was terrified and they seemed they were blindsided that wasn't fair to them either you know so I wasn't saying what I needed and then when I finally did they're like but five fucking years has gone by yeah right and I think that's a lesson I'm still learning.

1:08:48Justin Tranter:That's a really good one. It's like be be real about what you need and what you don't like early. Because I think early in any relationship, actually a great point, we always like celebrate the good parts and never address the bad parts until it's really awkward to do so. Anyway, thank you. Thank you so much for having us. I'm so so cool to have a conversation like this. I think it's a conversation that people who are so desperate to be in our business, they never hear this part of it. Yeah, no, this was fun. We just had a little couple of therapy. Love it. Yay. Thanks, guys. Thank you.

1:09:28Justin Tranter:Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations. And also, pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday. At Plies.com, it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100 % satisfaction guarantee, Everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows.

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