Debbie Gibson | Youngest artist to write, produce, and perform a Billboard #1 hit

19:18Justin Tranter:Tony Visconti produced one of my, my band's albums. Oh my God. I love him. Oh, so funny Tony Visconti story. So we used to live like 10 blocks apart on the Upper East Side. And we decided, cause he was like friends with my mom, cause my mom was managing me and my sister was doing my publishing. And we all decided that we were going to take conversational Italian in my apartment on the Upper East Side. So I literally remember. You know, just a girl's night of conversational Italian. Just a girl's night and the legend that is Tony Visconti. And I just remember us with this woman and the chalkboard and we were going, Gorgonzola.

19:59Gorgonzola. It's all I remember from conversation with Tony. So by the way, I'm tangent woman. I'm random. Please. It's all very entertaining. Because I have so many strange.

20:11Justin Tranter:I'm just going to keep, I'm going to, I want all of the tangent insane stories. Please, please do not censor yourself, but I'm also going to do my best to bring it back to collaboration every time. Yes, please. Because we are hoping to teach people about collaboration. Yes. Now, this was not a planned question because I did not, I knew that your mom was a momager. I knew that. Did not know that your sister was a publisher. In terms of collaborating, right? Because when we say collaboration, we always think about, with people like us, we think about co-writers or a producer, writer, artist, relationship.

20:41Justin Tranter:But collaborating with your manager and your publisher, that's a whole version of collaboration as well. Yes. What, collaborating with managers and publishers can be tricky no matter what. And Brian Koppelman did my publishing for a while with Charles. Cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're working with your family. Yes. Were there, what were some of your, the positives of that? And then what were some of the negatives of that? If you don't mind, because I think that people could learn a lot from that. Hello, my little unfamous friends. So the thing about the algorithm, Little Miss Algorithm, is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it.

21:28Justin Tranter:So if you follow this podcast, what do the old school YouTubers say? Like, subscribe and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. I mean, listen, like I, my sister, my sister, Karen actually also did A &R. She was A &R at Atlantic. She signed bands. She was working with Toby Emmerich at the time, who's now a big movie producer. But like she did the Wonder Year soundtrack. So like I got like first dibs on something like that where I got to contribute.

22:10Like I wrote the only original song on the Wonder Year soundtrack. Amazing. And, you know, obviously the whole label had to approve of it. But I kind of had that inside scoop from my sister, which was amazing. and she could kind of, you know, she had, she was like going out and seeing bands and like knew what was going on and knew it was relevant. Yeah. So she was a great sounding board.

22:32Justin Tranter:Yeah. She listened to all these demos. She had them all, um, resung so she could pitch them for things or whatever. Yeah. And you know, the thing was like, so my sister Karen, and then there was my mom. So my mom and I were like the big visionary magical thinkers. Yeah. Right. And my sister Karen had that, but was also a little more practical. So there definitely came a time when I was literally like, I'm hocking the duplex on the Upper West Side to make this next album because I'm not on Atlantic anymore. I left Atlantic, just treat creative stuff. Um, and you couldn't make an indie album like you can now.

23:21It was literally like a million and a half dollars to even put your foot, you know, to put your hat in the ring.

23:27Justin Tranter:Right. So she was like, don't sell the duplex. Like you don't want to be in this musical landscape right now and do that. And I was like, I'm not at a place in my life where, where my lifestyle, like sitting home in this duplex is going to do anything from, for me. Yeah. I'd much rather be out there, even if I blow through all the money, but I get the music out to the people like that was, I was always an artist through and through that way. And my mom always supported slash enabled. Yeah. Right. And so there were those tensions, you know, there were those, those tensions within our family for sure about those kinds of choices.

24:07Justin Tranter:And because I think that, I mean, obviously with it being your family, it raises the stakes, but those conversations are across any team working together. How, how would you get through those tensions? How do you get through those moments in a creative slash business relationship where you're like, Hey, everybody, let's maybe do this. I mean, ultimately all the decisions were mine to make, you know, because it was my money and my name and your music, my music. And so, you know, but like probably I'm envisioning the geography of our lives. Like I was home in my apartment, like starting to make this music and then like, you know, to release it, like I literally moved and started renting something.

24:51But like my sister and my mom were working in our office together. So like, you know, and my aunt was in the mix. No, listen, like everybody worked together at some point in my family. Wow. Like styling and, you know, my grandmother was doing the accounting when she was alive. Shut up. Oh, yeah. It was like everybody, you know, and my aunt and my mom didn't speak for a time. And my sister, so I was a little more removed from it because I was like, la, la, la, I'm going to make my music and I'm the artist. And my mom was always on my side.

25:26Justin Tranter:Right. Right. You know, we just always felt like, you know, who, who better to gamble on you than you? Like, and so, and I, I, I never regret any of those decisions. Yeah. That's what I was going to ask. Like, do you, with working with family can be so tricky, but you don't regret any of it? No. And listen, I write about, I relived this a lot recently because I put my book out and. Which I'm so excited to read. It's, it's quite a, it's, you know, people don't realize the real life challenges I've gone through more, more in the last like 10 to 15 years. Okay. So, you know, for people who, um, are going through challenges on a very human level, non-showbiz related, they'll read this and go, holy crap, because I get to sit here and tell people like, literally I've had everything stripped away and I've rebuilt.

26:20Wow. And so I love being able to speak passionately to people about that who are in survival mode. Yeah. Because I've been there.

26:27Justin Tranter:Yeah. I've actually been there. And I've been there when I also had to protect my name and my image and my like, that's a tricky thing. Yeah. You know, when you're like, I don't want people to see me in this deteriorated health state or financial state or this or that. And you have to kind of keep a perception up or disappear. But then how do you keep your life going? If you disappear. And pay your bills. Right? So. What do you think it is in you that can get you through those really hard moments? Because I do think, I hear you when you're saying like, everyone can relate to it because even though people don't understand what the stakes of keeping your persona intact, they can understand that the stakes are high.

27:12Justin Tranter:So I think that no matter what, people can learn from anyone who's gotten through really hard shit. What do you think, what is it that keeps you pushing? And I want to bring it back around to the question about my mom, because that's what got me there. But the thing that, you know, first of all, I will also say I don't have children. So that adds a whole layer. Like I have people in my life who are going through really tough times and have children on top of it. So I'm always like, that's a whole other level of everything. I don't know. I just had this very deep desire to not only survive, but to thrive again.

27:50And I just kept saying to myself, whether it was, I was in debilitating pain or I was like, I don't know, I mean, dealing with Lyme disease and the voice, like if you saw Shania's documentary, like I went through like that kind of crazy vocal dysphonia and was like singing on television occasionally where like, I didn't really know what was happening. And I was kind of like, wow, I sound awful. This feels really bad. And this is really hard, but here's what I learned through that. Makes me very emotional. People don't come to see an artist because they can hit a high note.

28:24Justin Tranter:Right. I think, I really believe we're all in it for the humanity and the connection. Yep. And I think once you've done it at a certain level and you've proven, like, even now, if I'm having a weird vocal day, like I don't ever lip sync, like I'm going to be like, if you all want to hear me hit that note better, there's a YouTube video of it from last week, right? But this week is this week. And life is in process. You want a live experience. So I'm bringing you whatever's going on in my life. Maybe it's stressful. And I think people really, like my fan base and I have connected so deeply through because of the challenges.

29:06Justin Tranter:Yeah. My mom and my relationship in a way was a marriage. Yeah. And then the parting of ways was my divorce. And so divorcing your mom. Fuck. Well put. Yes. And the thing about being in any relationship where you know when, you know the moment where it should end, but you're going to keep, you're going to keep trying. You're going to keep trying, even though you know it's not going to really. But like with my mom, the thing is, and I've had these professional relationships that were not my mom, where you're like, is this person aging out of the business too? Or like, can I, can I encourage them to change their mindset and live in the modern landscape?

29:49Because that's one thing I'm very proud of in my journey. Like I do not, I think that it's great to look back on nostalgic things and times with a fondness and a connection to it. But I think the quickest way to age yourself out of the world is to think everything that was done, everything great was done yesterday.

30:10Justin Tranter:Yep. And it cannot be topped. Right. Yeah. So like it's a mindset in show business. Like you have got to keep evolving. Yeah. You've got to embrace it. Otherwise you're left behind. And so like, would I have loved in my fantasy for my mom? Cause you know, I like the last six or seven years with the mixtape tour and a lot of things that have happened, there's been a resurgence for me and my music and touring. Would I have loved for my mom to have been alive and the one to be like, we did it together, right? Of course. But at a certain point I knew it wasn't going to happen. I also knew it was destroying our mother-daughter relationships.

30:47It was a very big full circle journey to get to the place where before she left the planet, thankfully, she was able to say, I wish I could have been a part of this, but I'm so proud of you and the work you're doing. And Heather, my manager, is someone my mom discovered and mentored, and she worked for us for nine years and then left, and then I brought Heather back in. So I'm lucky because that's like having two great marriages in a lifetime, having a manager. Because people are always like, where do you find a Heather? And I'm like, you got to find your own Heather.

31:24Justin Tranter:Yeah, she has to be mentored by your mother. Yeah, have your mother mentor your manager. Oh my God. But you know, she was, my mom kind of recognized herself in her. It's all very like, you know, woo woo, full circle. Like the universe always had this plan. tell me to fuck off if I'm pushing too hard, but I really, the point of making the podcast, which was Morgan's idea, the format of this collaboration is to, hopefully we're actually helping people learn how to collaborate better, whether it's musically, business-wise. Yes. In the moment when you're like, okay, because parting ways with any manager is fucking hard.

32:01Justin Tranter:Oh, yeah. If it's your mom, how do you actually get to the point? And again, if it's too personal, you can tell me to fuck off, but like, how did you, how do you actually get to that point? It was like a very slow ripping off of the bandaid. And then it was like a, okay, we can continue trying this, but I need you to do that. And it's where the child becomes the parent too. Where the, you know, because like creatively I always was a leader, but I still deferred to my mom in business, you know, and I still like remained, remained childlike so long as she was my manager. Right. Right. Like I didn't fully emancipate until like my thirties.

32:44Justin Tranter:Right. You know, so. Do you think that the slowly ripping the bandaid off was the right way to do it? Or do you think that you would have been better if you just said, hey, like earlier, hey mom, I'm done. Oh, that's so hard to say. I mean, maybe I needed the process of it too. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Again, cause I am that person who's gonna, I always give grace and second chances and third chances and fourth chances. So like I want, I was like, come on, you can do it. You can step into this. Yeah.

33:17Yeah.

33:25Stress at the time. But can I bring something up on collaborating with man? Cause to bring it to your, please, please. It is not like whenever you guys see pop stars out there, It's like, it is, it is, yes, it is their creativity and their vision, but like, it truly is about the team for me.

33:43Justin Tranter:It has to be. My agent Matt is here today. Heather, we have like, you know, we call, we call world domination meetings. Like we're like, we have these visions and we work backwards from them and we have grand visions because, and I always say like, nobody's waking up today here in LA. Like, what can I do for Debbie? Oh, I want Debbie Gibson to carry my new, you know, Netflix show. Like nobody's thinking like that. I have to think like that. Yeah. I do think like that, you know? And I also woke up one day at 14, like I'm going to be on the top of the Billboard charts. Like. And at 17, you were.

34:19Sitting in a house in Merrick, Long Island. Like nobody was going to make that happen but my mother. So to bring it back to the collaboration of your creative team, your manager, your agent, your musical collaborators, all of it is what brings it to life. I mean, I can't do this by myself. And the fans, like the fans bring it to life. It's all a collaboration to me.

34:41Justin Tranter:How do you view collaborating with your team now differently than you viewed when you were younger? I mean, I put a lot more time into like my business, like I wear a lot of business hats often. to the point where now I'm like, oh, I need to flip the balance back to creative a little more and take that space for myself. But I'm just more immersed in every aspect. Like, you know, I'm doing my social media. I'm doing my, like, I'm just so aware that everything I put out there is a reflection of me. I want it to be the purest reflection of me. And so I wear a lot of hats. I mean, that's really the difference.

35:28Justin Tranter:Is there anything you think when it comes to talking to your manager and your agent and everybody, is there anything you think that you're better at now that you wish you would have been better at when you're young? Yes. Yes. Because like, you know, I write about this in the book too. I say, I think, because sometimes I'm like, what ended up on the corner floor? What actually made it in the book, yeah. Yes. But like, I am so much more assertive. See, I was always creatively assertive, but in business, I sometimes allowed myself to be bullied even by my own teammates. Same. So like my mom and a former agent of mine were like, because they were a little more old school.

36:09And listen, you're going to appreciate this as a creative. They always were out for like, why does this person want a percentage of this? They didn't do this, right? Like, why are we giving away publishing? Why are we giving away, right? And I'm always the 100 % nothing's nothing person. Like, give it away. The pie is going to be big enough for everybody. Like, I don't care, right? I'm a little more like that when it's not simply that you're being taken advantage of, but where it's like, this is the negotiating tool and this is what's going to get the project out there. And so I remember a particular project.

36:44I was running a performing arts camp and a very big production company came in and they were documenting and they wanted to run with it. and my team at the time, which was, you know, led by my mom. Yeah. We're like, well, they want this percentage. And, you know, you're only getting 40%. Like, could you imagine owning 40 % of the voice right now? Right? Like it could have been that. Life-changing. Life-changing, right? There is no way on earth at this point that I would allow anybody to talk me out of anything.

37:20Justin Tranter:That you felt good about. That I wanted to do. Yeah. and by the way my manager would advise but she ultimately always says but I defer to you right because this is your you know if she absolutely cannot work with like I can't work with this person Deb they're not like they're abusive to me or they're this or they're that right obviously yeah but short of that like she and I never have conflicts because it's we're very respectful of each other's opinions. There are times where I go, I respectfully disagree. I do want to do this. And she'll go, okay, great. Yeah, let's go. Yeah. So we have a great rapport that way.

37:59Justin Tranter:I've just learned to do that at 45. I got a new manager like two years ago, new business manager very recently. And I'm starting these new relationships. I kind of had to start new relationships so that I could enter them advocating for myself. Nice. Because I've, I've learned that once patterns start with people, it's really hard to change. It's so hard to retrain people how to treat you. It's impossible. Oh no. I had somebody in my personal life recently say to me, why can't you be how you used to be and just like make a plan and keep the plan? And I go, cause I'm not that person. And now I'm extraordinarily selfish about my plans and my time.

38:46Yeah. And I'm super in the moment because it's how I've gotten my life back on track and I'm very protective of it. Yeah. So I agree. Yeah. I've trained people to treat you a certain way and I'm doing really hard, really hard.

38:58Justin Tranter:And I think what I love that you just touched on is that the way that we handle our friendships is probably how we're going to handle our business relationships too and our creative collaborations. It's like, there's been friends in my life of, yeah, trying to like set boundaries. and retrain. Big word for me too. How like, okay, you can't be that crazy to me anymore. Yeah, no. You realize that the friendship actually a lot of times just unfortunately has to end. And so, you know, I've had business collaborators in my life who really changed my life. Who really, I would not be sitting in this fucking house without them.

39:34Justin Tranter:However, the second I tried to be like, hey, you can't work me to the bone like that anymore. and I want to have a little bit more say in the sessions I'm doing because I didn't do that for seven years. And all of a sudden I was like, hey, I just can't do that one anymore. It was like I had just, you know, shot their dog, which as a vegan I would never do. But it's really hard to change dynamics in friendship and in business. when you said earlier that creatively you were always on it. I need to know how. And the answer might be that's just how you were. Because if you are, I had my first record deal at 27, right?

40:19Justin Tranter:It was late for the entertainment business. And I would still be like, what do you think I should? Okay, if you think I should do that, I'm going to try to do that. And made a lot of mistakes that way. how do you as a 14, 15, 16, 17 year old young woman, you're still technically a minor. How the fuck do you go? I'm writing, producing and performing this. Thank you. How did that happen? Well, what's interesting, I'll answer that. And then I'll tell you what happened right after that, which is why I left Atlantic. So like, I think first of all, when you're super young, your vision is so pure and clear.

41:02Justin Tranter:That's a great point. And you're not paying a mortgage. That's a great point. And you're not like, it's a glorified hobby. So that's for starters, right? That's a great point. Like, why wouldn't I just say what I wanted or what I, right? And I think because I was so young too, like, you know, I hosted the American Music Awards in like, like kind of low, but like I wasn't wearing high heels and I wasn't, right? I was wearing like a dress I bought in Huntington, Long Island. Like I remember the dress. I just bought almost the same one on eBay because I saw it. I was like, oh my God, I have to have this again.

41:37And my hat and little boot, right? Because I was like, I have to be comfortable. Like I can't be acting like somebody else. And so I don't know. You know, I was also very lucky because so Fred Tsar was, he produced only in my dreams. So I like, I produced Foolish Beat, which was the, which went number one. And what was so interesting is when I watched the George Michael, it might've been the Wham documentary, Walter A., whose name I can never pronounce. Walter, I want to say Asunafioff, Asunafioff, you know who I mean, right? Yes. So Atlantic had wanted Walter to produce stuff for me. And I was like, no, I know how I want it to sound.

42:26he produced Careless Whisper originally. And then George was like, no, this doesn't sound how I want it to sound. It was a similar, because the thing is like, if somebody's job is to give you input, they might overcomplicate things. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We need to bring in this person and bring in that person. Like to me, I'm always like, it's a ballad. It produces itself. That's what I think.

42:50Justin Tranter:Just play the fucking song. That's what I think the job of the producer of a ballad is. It's like, get out of the way of the song. Right? I would come up with the simplest, most classic way of arranging it and sonically what it would sound like. And that was really it. So what I was going to say though, is Fred Czar was that I had a lot of empowering people around me, people that did not feel like they had to do the Svengali thing with me. So Fred was one of the non-creepy older males in the music industry. He was the one. There's still too many. So for Fred to be not creepy back then is really impressive.

43:33It was really amazing. You know, he was like a cool uncle who was like, oh my God, this is awesome. A girl wants to do this and knows how to communicate this. And so he was there to help me facilitate my vision and empower me to do it on my own.

43:51Justin Tranter:Yep. So what's, tell me the difference of, especially in this young, pure age, tell me the difference of Foolish Beat produced alone versus Only in Your Dreams with Fred. What, how are you as the artist collaborating differently when you're producing yourself versus when someone else is producing you? Because I think there's a lot to learn from this. Yeah. That's such a great question. So like Only in My Dreams, if you heard the original demo, which is probably on one of those. Oh, don't you tease me. The one with the tape. That's on that one. The original demo of Only In My Dreams is right here.

44:25Justin Tranter:It might be on one of these. It still is like, if you heard it, you're like, oh, Fred took that and refined it and enhanced it. Oh, I need to hear that. It has the elements of what it became. But really the main difference is he's directing. He's running the show. he's running the sessions. Cause even though a lot was programmed, um, Iris Eagle, great guitarist, he played on everything. Jeff Smith on sax and, uh, Bashiri Johnson on percussion who taught me triplets that I could still do to this day on a shaker. I got to play with him at the Songwriters Hall of Fame last year, which was incredible.

45:06I was like, I got to do a build me up buttercup for Tony McCauley and help induct him. But Bashiri, like to see him like, you know, 38 years after he played that percussion on Only in My Dreams. But really it was Fred running the show and I still gave my input, but I still deferred to Fred. I mean, it's just like producing to me is like being the director of a movie. It's pulling the elements together and the people and the pieces. So even just the starting place, like even for me for Lost in Your Eyes, like the starting place of that, you know? Like I'm starting with that piano part and I'm building around it.

45:44I produce that.

45:45Justin Tranter:insane. Right. It's a ballad. So you're like, I can, but like I produced half the electric youth album, right. But like electric youth, Fred produced and I couldn't have done it as well. How do you feel as the artist, right? Cause it's, it's rare, even to this day, it's very, a lot of artists are writing for themselves or co-writing for themselves, but it's very rare that someone's producing for themselves. So how do you let go of the reins to let, to let someone else be the director and you're just the actor for that moment? Well, like, so Sean and I, it's like Sean produced or co-produced all of the Body Remembers album that we did.

46:23And so -

46:24Justin Tranter:By the way, great fucking title. Thank you. Body Remembers is a very good title. Thank you. Yeah. I don't, I barely remember how that came to me, but I remember the song coming to me. But like he and I have, you know, Psychic Friends Network. Like we just, like I'll call and I'll like, you know, play something into the, like literally just the phone's here and I'm just playing it into the, and I'll just say like a reference, maybe a certain sound from a certain song and I'll sing a certain part. Hey, I want a little riff here and a little riff here, a little string thing here, whatever the things are.

46:57And he'll pop it back to me. And I'm like, that's what was in my head, but better.

47:02Justin Tranter:Yeah. Right. And so I have zero problem being like produced by Sean Thomas or if I, if I was more immersed in, in, you know, in the details of it than it was produced by both of us. And I've just gotten to a place too, where I'm like, I don't want to say nobody reads the credits, but like, I'm at the point where I'm like, who cares? The song's great. Yeah. We'll call it, you want all the credit? Great. You want all the money? Great. You want all the, like, it doesn't really matter to me. When you're younger though, right? When you're young, like I love what you said about the purity of being so young.

47:37Justin Tranter:Like this is my vision, duh. It's this glorified hobby. I think that's so real. And why when I work, co-write with younger people, I'm like, no, no, you need to lead the way here. I will structure this and help you. But like your beautifully delusional youth is what's gonna actually make the sparks here. So when you're young and you're producing two songs that went number one, how do you also be smart enough to go no no i need fred on this one on this one and this one or it might be so long ago you're like justin shut up i don't remember but i am so actually curious i do remember and i'm gonna say something like you're gonna be like oh wow so fred did the intro to papa don't preach he did that keyboard now now he'd be called a writer on the song of course right because that's such a melodic part right and like so he did that with me with like who loves you baby he did the right which opened my whole electric youth concert again if you helped create an intro back then that was part of production that wasn't part of writing yep so like there were ways in which he'd enhance my music in that way smart enough to hear it i was like smart enough to know that something was missing that he was going to add yeah whether it was a part, which was, or a tightening of what I had created in the demo.

48:58Like I knew that my demo was too loose and I didn't know how to get it to the elevated point that it would sound like it belonged on the radio. That's the, that's the best way I could put it.

49:09Justin Tranter:What, I mean, that actually makes perfect sense to me. What I'm, I'm blown away by is that being that young, that you were able to hear a difference. And that I think is why you were as successful as you were. I was definitely able to be like, here, make this better. Yeah. Bring out the best in me in this vocal, like whatever the things were. Yeah. And we'd sit and comp vocal. And by the way, vocal comping was like the most fun thing. Like we would, I would, I would do a round of vocals and we'd comp and I'd take it home and then I'd hear what I wanted to do. We'd usually do like three rounds.

49:45Yeah. And we'd sit there and, you know, comping at the time was like punching in and bopping over words and syllables and there was no tuning. It's so funny you brought up Madonna and tuning. Every time I hear Borderline, I think, how much comping did they do? Because it's like pitch perfect, that one. Yeah, yeah. I just had that flash of that.

50:05Justin Tranter:What blew my mind about listening to, re-listening to some of your records this morning, because, oh my God, how am I blanking on the title? On the first album, the Angel song. Fallen Angel. Fallen Angel. The reason why I needed to play it for Morgan this morning is because Fallen Angel is the first time I tried to write a song and why I said that we were co-writing even though you don't know we were co-writing. Oh my God. And now we need to actually co-write. We have to. We have to. Fallen Angel I was listening to on some like family road trip from Chicago to Michigan because my mom's from Michigan, my dad's from Chicago.

50:36Justin Tranter:So we're driving to see her family and I'm like in the backseat listening to, and my parents were fans of yours. It was one of the few things I listened to that they actually liked. but after like three hours of Debbie Gibson, they were like, okay, you listen on your Walkman. We're gonna, dad needs to listen to the Beatles or some shit, right? So I'm listening to Fallen Angel and I'm literally going, okay, I think I can write a song. And I basically wrote just my bad version of Fallen Angel, which was like, probably like Angel Falls Down or something. It was, I found love on the dance floor. Yeah, it was.

51:11Justin Tranter:So I'm just like fully, and I vividly remember and I tried, I sang my parents a song, a song saying, hey, I wrote a song and I, no bullshit can remember the looks on there. And I must be like seven, eight years old at the oldest. Right. Cause that came out in 87. Yeah. Right. And so I'm an 80 baby. So I can, it's really easy for me to know what age I was. So seven or eight and I'm singing this version of a song. They already knew cause I played your music so much and they were just like being really nice and like acting like I wrote something, but really I just changed like seven syllables to your song.

51:46Justin Tranter:So we have, you literally are the reason I started writing songs, which is. Can I, wait, can I just take that in for a minute? Well, and while you take it in, I will say also to give more context about his parents is that they're incredibly competitive people. Both of them, incredibly competitive. Like the first time I met his mom or one of the earliest times, I remember her aggressively swimming laps in a bean shaped pool. And then his dad is like this incredible tennis, like pro, like this tennis coach. And so like, I am imagining his parents as a seven, eight year old, you're performing this song to them.

52:25Justin Tranter:They're like, you stole this. Great start. Great start. But like, we can do better. I make this original. Oh my God. The type A was alive and well. Normally people would be like, great job, baby. Like whatever. They're like, no, no, no, you can do better. You can do better. You can do better than this. It's interesting. My mom was both, my mom, cause my dad thought everything was great, but my mom similarly would be like, that's great, honey. Keep going, right? Like, yeah. Like, great. We're not submitting that to anybody yet, but great. Yeah. Great that you're just writing a song. I always said this cause I did like songwriting workshops for kids and stuff.

53:02And I'm like, if your kids are even trying to write a song at eight or 12 or like, that's amazing. Let's just say that that's amazing and keep going.

53:11Justin Tranter:So then how does your mom decide that it's good enough for her to try to find record industry, like get you, how old were you when you signed the deal? So, well, we did start, so I Come From America, which was the song that won the WOR songwriting contest with the stock on the Casio, the samba, the rolling arpeggios. We did take that, We got this like Canadian, because Celine was happening at like 12, right? So we got this Canadian. Oh, so you were hip to Celine early. Yeah. Because she hadn't broken an America yet. No, but like, I knew there was this young girl, right? Like, like when Mariah started, she was like, well, Debbie's this young girl.

53:59I could get this, right? We all kind of were, everyone was aware of everyone, I think, right? Yep. And so this Canadian, I don't know how my mom found this Canadian label. All I know is I got a passport at 12 and went to Montreal and they turned, I come from America with the samba beat and my like, America is the place I love. My little Rita Moreno, America. They turned it into man eater. It was like, I come from America. I come from America. And I was like, that was one of those, like, what did they do with my song? But they published it. So I had sheet music on it, had the Statue of Liberty on the front.

54:45In like a sepia tone. This is crazy. It's crazy. But then like after that, I think I see this is like I haven't really thought about this in this way. But like I think my mom at that point was like, yeah, let's regroup and have you write better songs that are more commercially viable. Right. But I still was writing like So Sweet the Music and Du-Wop Rock and Rock and Roll Baby Doll. They all sounded like a 50s musical. All these songs, right? And then it was with that Lindrum machine, I remember saying, okay, I'm going to write a song that sounds like it belongs on the radio today. And I wrote Only in My Dreams.

55:28Justin Tranter:Wow. I had that opening. How old were you when you wrote it? 13. 13. That's fucked up. 13. That's not right. And that was like, I went, every time I'm telling secrets. And I literally to this day can't explain what that line means. It can mean whatever it wants to mean to anybody. Wait, what's the lyric again? I know the song so well. Every time I'm telling secrets. Right. I remember how it used to be. Right. So every time I'm telling secrets. It's actually quite profound. But I was like, that's the opening line to a hit song. I felt that in my bones. Wow. And I felt that in my bones. And I don't, and then I got to the chorus.

56:07And I remember doing the harmonies and like purposely not. And this is funny because Josh Goodwin, who mixed my song, Love Don't Care, who you probably have worked with. He told me, because I was like, I know you're just mixing this, but please give me, before you mix it, give me any feedback. And he was basically like, take a third of the scoops and the vibrato out. and I took it to an extreme. I was like really like deadpan straight, right? Because again, that's when you listen, you go, hi, modern, modern, modern. I'm still going to sound like me. Yeah. Well, let's not like me now. Yeah. Right.

56:47But only in my dreams I did that because I was like, I'm so Broadway. I'm so theatrical. Let me like straight tone the chorus. Yeah. So it was like, no, only in my dreams. It was almost like a horn pad, but like singing, right? But I just remember going, oh, this is a radio song. And then it ended up being the first single, but three years later.

57:11Justin Tranter:Oh, right. Yeah. How do you think, do you think it was your classical training that made it so that your ears could understand the difference between a 50s Broadway song versus an 80s radio hit? Do you think your classical training gave you those skills or is it just like natural ears? I think to being a pop music fan, I was like, oh, what's the difference here? What's the difference here? What's a sing along? Like I was singing in this like cabaret, uh, upper, on the Upper East Side in New York called Something Different. Yet the Young Stars Showcase. Right. So I was like singing my original songs at that time.

57:48People were singing Broadway. So I think that's why I was still doing this hybrid thing of like, oh, the kids in this place. it was like a dessert nightclub for kids. We're going to call it right. So like rich upper East parents would throw birthday parties for their, like, I want like, can we start? Can we start one? I want to start a new one. It was a really big thing. And so, but like Broadway annies, like kids, showbiz kids were, were singing there. And so I'd be singing my songs and my songs always felt like a little more pop than all the Broadway things people were singing, but it still fit in.

58:23And then it was like, oh, I need to write things that I can't sing there. Right. Like I've always been this person that straddled these worlds. Like I did a Hallmark movie where I played a version of myself. So I played like the Hallmark version of a pop star. But like my real, like who I am, like my spirits rock and roll.

58:44Justin Tranter:Yeah. I don't want to be in those boxes. Yeah. And so that was like the only in my dreams was the beginning of that. But what's so interesting to me is that you had the ears to find that so young because I was a huge musical theater fan, surprise to no one. And I kept getting told I was too pop when I would sing. Oh, too pop for Broadway, too Broadway for pop. I kept getting told you're singing this so pop, you're singing this so pop, which is probably because I grew up on you and Madonna and blah, blah, blah. And I wouldn't hear it. And there was no rent yet. See, like if there was rent, you would have gotten rent.

59:18Justin Tranter:Rent happened when I was like a senior in high school. So it was, but also it was just like a gift because then it was just like, they never wanted me from musical theater. And so I just started writing my own songs. I had the inkling of writing when I was super young listening to you, but I didn't really sit down and start writing consistently until I was like 15, 16, because musical theater kept saying you're too pop. But I never, I couldn't, I literally could not hear the difference. And so what I find so interesting about you is that your ears were there that young. And my guess is it's going to maybe come from classical piano because it gave you a.

59:56I feel like it didn't. I feel like it came from like Madonna. I mean, in terms of like your ears being smart enough to know the difference.

1:00:04Justin Tranter:Oh, to know the difference? Not that the classical piano inspired you. I'm just trying to figure out. I feel like it's more of like, honestly, like the radio, like the fan in me. I feel like it was the pop music fan in me that knew the difference. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I just didn't hear it. Like I was in the thick of being like, I was an unapologetically like pop, you know what I mean? Like, cause people were always in, when I was in high school, it was like, I remember the day that some kids in school brought their Wham albums in and they were like, you can have these. We don't like Wham anymore.

1:00:40Right. Like we're listening to W-L-I-R-L-I-R-L-I-I-R. what is it? L-I-R. L-I-R. That was like the alternative. That was the cure. And that was Depeche Mode. And that was right. And I was like, so protective of pop music.

1:00:56Justin Tranter:Wow. When it wasn't always cool to like it. You know, I was always like, I always knew the greatness of it. Yeah. Right. Well, cause the pop is just the, it's all about the simplicity to make it popular. The beauty of the simplicity. And I talk about this in my book too, but like the day I came home from school and I turned on MTV and wake me up before you go, go came on. Yeah. And I was like, how do I write a hook like this? Like what? Like the catchiest thing and the most joyful thing to me. Was that, do you think that was a big moment where you were like, oh fuck, I'm going to be a pop star?

1:01:32Justin Tranter:Or was it the Bruce or the Billy Joel moment you talked about before? I mean, there's like the Billy Joel, you know, seeing all songs written by Billy Joel. I love, see, I always loved the feeling. I'll tell you this. So like, I, I weirdly like did and didn't visualize being a pop star. I really was like, I want people to hear this song. I want people to hear the music. Yeah. Right. Because I didn't think I was cool enough to be the star in a way. I felt like a star in that I was doing theater and I loved to, I was outgoing. Yeah. But I didn't feel cool in a pop star kind of way. So like I was always about, and you'll relate to this as a songwriter, I'm sure.

1:02:18I always felt like when I was about to play someone a new, a song that I wrote that like, oh my God, I have this secret that nobody else knows. And I'm about to share it with everybody. Like they're about to hear a song that never was in the world and it was born through me or whatever, however you view it, channeling something into, I believe like the universe is like, here, write this. If you don't write it, they're dropping the ideas going to someone else because the universe needs this out there. Right. That's how I view it. Yeah. I don't have a big ego about the writing part, weirdly, but like, I just always got joy out of feeling people in a room responding to a song.

1:02:58Yeah. So that was my inspiration for wanting to do what I do.

1:03:03Justin Tranter:I feel that too, because I always thought when I went from being in my band to writing songs for other people. I expected myself to be jealous that I wasn't singing a hit that I wrote and I was not jealous at all. I was just like, oh, but people are hearing my song. That's the crazy part. To me, that's amazing. How do you feel being this, you were this young woman in the industry that accomplished all this stuff and you really, so many people think they understand what the industry is, but you have seen it now in many different eras, decades, everything. How do you think things have changed for women in the industry for better or worse?

1:03:45Justin Tranter:Because obviously you had a very, your own experience in it. Do you, can you see ways that we've progressed in ways that we haven't or? I mean, yeah, for sure. Like, I, I mean, It's what you were just saying about hearing all that trying in Madonna's voice, right? Like, she really had to work. I'm doing this visually in my head, like the timeline. And an Olivia Rodrigo or a Sabrina Carpenter or, you know, a her or they people just listened to them from a different vantage point and starting place. Right. Like all the years of The Doors, Madonna had a breakdown. own were like, it had to be exhausting.

1:04:32I had to do a bit of that myself. Right. Right. But the fact that, um, there was just already like now there just already is a place for female creative visionaries. That landscape already exists. Yeah. Not that people don't have to work hard to forge their own path. Yeah. But they're starting at a different place. They're starting also from a place where, you know, a million people can hear your song in one day. Like I was playing 200 person clubs at a time and people were drunk and I was like 16. I'm like, I haven't even been around this many drunk people at a high school party, like trying to get their attention with this song.

1:05:14And like, so all, I love that I had that training ground. I love it because, you know, Now, because even almost 40 years in, sometimes I'm on a stage that big at some private event or I'm at, I have to know how to work a room in a certain way. And I know how. That part of it's a craft. And that part of it, I had great training.

1:05:36Justin Tranter:Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so for people that are in this starting place of like their home doing covers on social media, and then suddenly they're like, it's pretty, a pretty quick trajectory to like, they're, they're on iHeart, you know, they're doing the iHeart music, whatever, right? Music awards. I think that must be petrifying. Right. So I don't envy them. Yeah. But I, but I am really happy that it's just not as big of a deal. it's like, oh, she wrote this, she produced this. He wrote this for her. She like, you know, it's just all already, it's just all possible and all happening and all accepted now.

1:06:18Justin Tranter:Yeah. And all celebrated now. Right. Right. So I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like right now it would have been such a, the whole internet would have known in a second if you broke right now. Right. Right. If they would have known in a second that you wrote and produced these hits yourself. In one second, they would have known that. And there would have been a different level of celebration for what you did. I was just lucky as a fan that I randomly heard some random fucking DJ in the suburbs of Chicago mention that you wrote and produced it. But I think I remember as a kid having to fight my brothers and tell them that you were a real musician.

1:07:02Justin Tranter:because they just assumed that you were like every other Pop-Tart on the radio, where now that story would be told in one TikTok video that could go viral. Right. Yeah. I have a question, and I should know this, but did you solo write all your stuff when you were the artist, when it was your main? Yes. I stupidly... No, no, no. I just... No, no, but it... I am not afraid to say it now. I am not as good as you are. So the second I started co-writing, my whole life changed because I am, I know, now I know what I'm good at, right? Which I can write really good melodies if it's very much in the alternative space or this sort of dramatic rock alternative space, whatever you want to call it.

1:07:53Justin Tranter:And I can write lyrics pretty much in any genre, but I assumed I could write melodies in any genre. And I, once I started co-writing, I was at a place with my ego. I was 33. I was old as far as the music business is concerned. Not old at all, but as far as our shitty business is concerned, I was. I was smart enough to go, oh fuck. That melody that this 19 year old girl just wrote, meaning Julia Michaels. I was like, that is way fucking better than anything I was going to suggest for this genre. For what we're trying to accomplish today. so I didn't have I didn't that's why I keep trying to quiz you about your ears because I'm trying to help listeners learn why you could hear the difference and things like that so young right and I want to know that for you so then like where did you jump in and tell Julie I love issues by the way like where did you jump in and say this is what I have to contribute and I know better than you do for this so our first session or this hook or this yeah whatever it was you I could really contribute with her, like, and with everybody, but, you know, with her specifically, the first song we wrote was a song called Sick of This, which Rita Ora and Calvin Harris cut, but then they broke up, so it never came out.

1:09:08Okay.

1:09:08Justin Tranter:But that was the first song we ever wrote together, and it was my title. Uh-huh. And she took my song titled Sick of This and just sang the greatest melody I'd ever heard until the next day I wrote with her, you know, and then she was singing an even better one. so it was like me contributing weirder lyrics weirder thoughts and but then also really because I'm such a song geek deeply understanding structure deeply understanding melodic math so even though they were for the most part in her and I's collaboration specifically because that's what we're talking about yep most of those melodies are her I'm editing them I'm structuring them I'm moving this feeling to here I'm moving the actually I think our pre-chorus is our verse and are this.

1:09:54Justin Tranter:So it was, is lyric, a full lyric co-write. And then a structure math, you know, I was 33. She was 19. I had a degree in songwriting. She was just a natural, you know. By the way, you just said something funny. So every time I collaborate, not every time, but often when I collaborate with someone, what they think is a hook, I'm like, that's the pre-chorus. We can top that. Like, cause I'm a hook girl. So I'm just like, the hook to me has to be deeply satisfying. Yeah. Do you feel like in your journey, either when you were young or right now as a woman, do you feel like you have to change the way you say things to be heard?

1:10:32Yes. I mean, I just think that if you're evolving as a person, you're evolving as a songwriter and how you're going to say, like, I'm not going to write Lost in Your Eyes again. Like that was right. Like that was, it's beautiful the journey it's had because I always say you can take a very simple puppy love song you wrote at 17 and now color it in with all, like I can color it in with all my life experience when I perform it. And people have taken it on the journey and a love song always stands the test of time and all that. But I still was writing that from limited experience. So it It wasn't going to be as, what's the word I'm looking for?

1:11:15Justin Tranter:Nuanced or? Yeah. Like it was just, it had, it's beautiful in its simplicity. Yeah. Right. But there's going to be more colors and things to the way I do lyrics at this point. Yeah. And I like getting more specific in lyrics. I love painting pictures with lyrics more. Yeah. you know there's something in my song freedom on the body remembers album about you know my being face down on the cold bathroom floor which is I love those visceral images and I was with my face on that because I was in a lot of pain and I was like wanting to feel the I had to like connect to something like I remember the moment in my life and I want to I want to put those pictures in my music more.

1:11:59Justin Tranter:Yeah. You know, it's not as vague. You want to grow. You want to grow. It's not as vague. Well, when you're young, those sort of very vague thoughts are cutting so deep because you're feeling those feelings for the first time. Right. So you're like, no, no, trust me, this shit is deep. Yes. I get lost in your eyes. This is crazy. Right. You know, I mean, and when I take like, I don't mind not knowing what I'm heading for. You can take me to the skies. Like you think like that's profound. Yeah. You know, take me as, take me on the journey with you, like all of that. But, but that was of that time and place.

1:12:31And if there's going to be something else, like I wrote a song on the body remembers, this is me not loving you. And the very end of the song, it's, if only that were true. Right. Yeah. There's like, there might be like a twist or a something at this point. Yeah. But I'm always, I'm always fascinated by when there are, cause some of your collaborations are a lot of people in the credits. Were they all in the room? Did they contribute through production at times? It depends, right?

1:13:00Justin Tranter:So, you know, I think I'm lucky that for the most part, the bulk of my songs, there's four, three, four, five people on it. And if you're seeing, for the most part, if you're seeing the credits of my songs, if you're seeing three, four people, chances are we were all in the room together. A couple instances where there was five, right? maybe we were all there together. Once you start seeing six, seven, eight, nine, 10, there is no way I wrote a song with 10 people in the room. I would rather. I'd have a hard time even with four people in the room. Four had gotten really good because two of my favorite collaborators are the producer team, Matt Man and Robin.

1:13:44Justin Tranter:And they are one of the producers, two of the producers in the world who really deserve their songwriting credit. Robin writes crazy fucking melodies. Matthias is crafting, they both are crafting such musical instrumental parts that it is very much worth publishing that they get, right? Right. So, but with them, neither one of themselves would, even though Robin does write amazing melodies, they wouldn't really consider themselves, like they're not going to be able to write a full vocal situation. So they're more on the track and chord instrumentation side. And so I'm going to always want another person, vocal person with me to do it.

1:14:25Justin Tranter:So I got really good at four-person sessions because I just love them so much. That makes sense. Once we get to five, it does get a little tricky. And then, yeah, when there's ten, it's because either I got handed a song that someone wants a whole lyric rewrite on or a partial lyric rewrite, And they've tried, the original writers have tried a bunch and it's now been passed to me. I'm just speaking for myself personally, that'll happen. Or it's something that I started with just three people. And then the artist took it on a journey and they went and finished it with somebody else. And I would rather them finish it and it come out than not.

1:15:09Justin Tranter:Of course. Now, a lot, you know, I know like Beyonce credits get talked about all the time. Beyonce works as like, she's like a director of collage, right? So she's going to take a verse from this song she loves. She's going to take a lyric from that song she loves. She's going to take the drums from that song she loves. And she's going to - She's scrapbooking her album. Her life story. I love that. And so, you know, people, I think because the internet hates women mainly, they want to always go after her credits for having so many people, but never like massive rappers who do the same process.

1:15:42Justin Tranter:They only want to make fun of her credits, not Kanye's. Not to bring up his name. To me, though, again, it's about the finished product. It's about what the song does for somebody, what they feel when they hear it. And how they do it. Who cares how they got there? But I'm interested in how people get there. So I find this interesting. So for me, you know, like if I look at, if I'm going to personally look at my favorite songs in my catalog, Good Luck, Babe, there was three of us in the room. You know what I mean? And it's with Issues, Julia Michaels, there was four of us in the room. You know what I mean?

1:16:16Justin Tranter:It's just like if we're going to look at the songs that I really love, the numbers are normally smaller. You know what I love about Issues? That's just my preference. It sounds like a pure expression of her as an artist. Oh, she was. We were capturing it as it was happening. And that to me is the genius of, I mean, going back to just like Bernie Taupin and Elton John, Like, do you ever think about Bernie when you're hearing those songs? Like, it's just, it's Elton's. For anyone who doesn't know the Bernie Elton process, Bernie writes lyrics first, hands them to Elton, and he decides what they sound like.

1:16:51Which is unbelievable to me, because like for me, and I don't know how you are when you write solo, but things come to me, and I always say to people, it's like I'm singing my thoughts. They usually come together.

1:17:02Justin Tranter:Yeah. And because if I start with like a lyric, it always feels like I put a melody on it. It doesn't feel as coherent and cohesive as if it like, I'm like, whatever, like I'm walking around singing my inner monologue. Yeah. That's how it always works best for me. Yeah. For me at this point, because everything I do is so deeply based in we're co-writing from the ground up that I haven't done that in years. So when I was younger, I used to all the time. But that, I'm so like on a calendar of writing now, which I love. I'm a very, I love like I am on a writing schedule, which - I have to get better about that.

1:17:49Justin Tranter:It's, I think it's a really beautiful way to just see what happens, you know? And as, but see, I'm also, I'm not writing about my life and you're writing for yourself for the most part, right? Yes, yes. Okay, well, that's a question that me and Morgan were talking about this morning. did you ever have the thought of like okay I and you might have I might not know the history well enough so tell me to fuck off if I'm getting this wrong of looking at someone like Linda Perry who had this artist moment and then started writing for other people did you I feel like your pivot right once you left Atlantic and this and that your pivot was like okay I'm gonna try Broadway I'm gonna do shit like this which you were very successful at Broadway and the West End and all these amazing things.

1:18:31Justin Tranter:You broke records at the West End revival of Greece. Like, did you ever think like, well, maybe should I just go and write and produce for other people? Yeah. So I did a little bit of it in the beginning of my career when it was kind of like, you know, oh, you know, Debbie's having hits. Let's get her to do like, so I did, God, I did like half an album for an Australian artist named Jo Beth Taylor. There was a an artist named Anna on Sony Columbia that I did a few songs for, wrote and produced, co-produced. Okay. So you did. Yeah. There was a group called The Party on Disney. I did, but that was all years ago.

1:19:08Right. And then, and the reason why I was asking you about like, when there were so many people in a room and whatever, the former head of Atlantic publishing, Gary, I'm like, his name is, last name is escaping me and I know it. But anyway, I met with him like, I guess it was, it has, has to be over 10 years ago at this point. Like, but in one of the later chapters of my career, you know, um, and he was like, do you want to come write for us? And, you know, and he said to me, first he's like, sit and play. I sat at the piano and played a bunch of stuff I was working on. And he was like, the days of the solo writer are over.

1:19:48So you would really have to be like, and it was a little bit before too. It's like, he wanted me kind of planted here in LA and really making it, it's, as you know, it's a full-time vocation.

1:19:58Justin Tranter:It's a full-time job. So I, the artist side of me is too strong to make that my full-time vocation is really the answer. Yeah. If it could happen like as a, an, oh, by the way. Like I did a couple of things here and there. Right. Like if, you know, if you're a part of a session and something, there's a loose end and you're like, I think Deb can help tie this up. Call me. Right. I would love to do it. Um, but am I going to say I'm doing, I'm doing this for the next month or six months or six years or not make my own next album. Yeah. That's if I, if it's a choice. Yeah. I'm going to, you know, do it.

1:20:41Justin Tranter:Can you remember a moment in collaborating where you thought someone was really making the wrong choice on your album, on your show? And then it ended up being the right thing. Okay. That's such a good question. So this takes me to like, so Sturkin and Rogers and I wrote half of my Body, Mind, Soul album, wrote and produced it. We co-wrote, co-produced after I turned in what I thought was the album. So the way my first few albums worked was I had no A &R person at Atlantic. It was Doug Morris and Ahmed Erdogan. And it was me, no joke, those cassettes in a brown paper lunch bag. And I would dump the, they were single cassettes and I like had the 10 minute one.

1:21:26So each one had a song and I'd dump it on on its desk and go, here's my album. Because in the beginning, they just kind of didn't get what I was doing. And not that they didn't care. They were like, we don't understand this. So just, it worked the first time, keep doing what you're doing. And so by the time we got to my fourth album, because the third one did not do as well, the Anything is Possible album did not do as well as the first two. And I equate that to a few things. First of all, the four years of demoing leading up to those first two, right? And then suddenly it's like, let's get this next one.

1:22:04Right. And, and I think I was in a transition as like a young woman, as an artist, it was like, let me try a little bit of this style and a little bit of that style. And I collaborated with Lamont Dozier on that album, which was amazing. And I was just experimenting. and the landscape was changing and people were going to college and taking their Debbie Gibson posters off the wall or taking them with them or putting the albums under the bed or like whatever they were doing, right? So by the time we got to the fourth album, I was very much in the like, I'm going to say some hybrid of Whitney and Wilson Phillips.

1:22:42Justin Tranter:Okay. Okay. Like there was like the earthy melodic pop mixed with the, you know, the Whitney like kind of soulful pop, vocal pop. And it was everybody's moment of panic, like put her in a little black dress and heels because otherwise we don't know how to market this. We need to lean urban, R &B at the time, right? And I was like, right. Because when you think Debbie Gibson, you think urban. You think R &B. You think R &B, hardcore. Like it was, let's get Prince. Well, by the way, like 10 years later, I would have killed to work with Prince. Right. But that wasn't the right thing at that time.

1:23:26That was like, let's tart her up and make her one of the Prince protégés because we just want to sell the record because we don't know how else to sell the record, right? So where we landed was on Sturkin and Rogers because they had done Soldier of Love for Donny Osmond, which was, if anybody out there remembers this story of a certain generation, Donny Osmond was never going to be back on pop radio, but Soldier of Love sounded like George Michael. Right. So they white labeled it and sent it to DJs. They did a whole, guess who this artist is? Everybody assumed it was George. No. Yeah. And, or if it wasn't, it was, this is this urban, this is this R &B, right?

1:24:07Yeah. So Soldier of Love, great song. so I was like okay I mean I'm disappointed that they are they don't like half of what I turned in but okay so that this is where I got confused between like the theater girl in me and the pop artist in me it was like I can be versatile I can kind of play a role and do things their way my way my way their way yeah so that's when you get into trouble I think as an artist Yeah. Right. So to answer this question, the music, I think that album is a great album.

1:24:43Justin Tranter:Yep. That had very little to do with who I was at the time. Right. So the dots did not connect. So like the dots did not connect and my audience always knew me and they knew when I was being pure and they knew when I was playing a role. Yeah. Right. So it was still like an extension of me, but not, I wasn't really living the life I was writing about and singing about. And the beauty of pop music, that's what pop music is supposed to be. Yeah. Well, there are also this thing when trends change and things change, I think a lot of times when an artist is not 100 % being themselves, then fans feel like, oh, you're ashamed of what we loved.

1:25:26Justin Tranter:Right. And then there's this weird push and pull of like, well, no, but we loved her. Right. So now you're saying we're supposed to be ashamed of her. And that's, that gets really tricky. We're all disowning that and we're doing this. And like the diehard fans, like they went on the journey with me with anything as possible. And they loved what there was to love about it. And also see, I always saw a career as like, you know, like Billy Joel's like nylon curtain. I like, I'm going to pull that out. Like, I don't think that sold as much as The Stranger, right? Cold Spring Harbor was like my favorite album, but that didn't sell as much as The Stranger.

1:26:03But when you look at an overall career, this didn't sell, this sold, this had hits, this didn't, and it's this beautiful, you know, whole trajectory someone's on. But what I didn't realize, and there's a chapter in my book I call Pop Bullseye Girl, they were used to me being the pop bullseye girl, and that's what they wanted me to be. They weren't signing on for me to be a Billy Joel.

1:26:30Justin Tranter:Right. Right. They were like, oh, you must want to be like one thing Madonna was always brilliant at was having a hit in every era. Right. Every decade. And she would take us long if she didn't if she didn't write the hit, she would take it. She was like, give me the fucking hit. And this one's in and that one's in. And she still made it her own. Yeah. But that was her genius. Yeah. That wasn't my genius. Right. My genius was like, this is how I'm feeling and I'm going to sing about it. Right. Like that was what I did. And people like it. They don't like it. I was fine with that. They weren't fine with that.

1:27:04Justin Tranter:Yeah. How do you, in the moments, right, of the third album not going as well, how do you, because you have to, speaking for myself, you have to come to terms with the failures quick to move on. Yes. I know my way of dealing with the failures quick. How do you deal with failures quick or enough to move forward? I find the charm in everything. Like I find the, like we were like, we had like an airplane hangar. We're rehearsing a tour. And then it was like, the tour went from this to this. And so then I was like, oh good. I can do on my own from Les Miserables in this show because we're going to be in theaters.

1:27:45Yeah. Right? Like, so I will find that silver lining.

1:27:48Justin Tranter:That's me too. I will pivot. I will adapt. And I will find like the good thing about this is, and I did that so quickly. And the good thing was I did on my own from Les Mis and then got Les Mis and went on to Broadway. I mean, right. Because that's not a lesson. It's great to have visions, but then you can't you can't get stuck on a vision that might there might be a gift in the other way. Something's going. I mean, that is the biggest lesson to learn from this. OK, so my tours are a lot smaller. Like you have to embrace it. Let me say this. That's really awesome. But I mean, I think a lot of times the way that we reframe things in our mind to stay positive, to get results that clear is a beautiful, beautiful thing to learn from.

1:28:30And listen, I would always rather have a small room full of people who know why they're there than an arena full of people on a bandwagon who are about to disappear any minute because it's a bandwagon and a trend, right? So like I learned about that too. I was like, oh, I was a trend or I was of the moment for certain, you know, I say fans, I say my fam. My fam club. Whereas like now when I do these small tours, I get in my RV, you know, I might play a 500 seater. It might be a 1200, you know, I'll go to, I'll go overseas and I'm Michael Jackson, like in Peru. I've just learned, right? Like it's unbelievable.

1:29:09Cool. But I love having the, all the like.

1:29:14Justin Tranter:Experiences. All the experiences. Yeah. Here I'm like a, like, you know, depending on the city in America. Yeah. Like in New York, I might be a 1 ,200 seater. And somewhere else, I'm a 500 seater. Somewhere else, I could be a 5 ,000 seater. And I'm like, it all works for me as long as we're all in the room together. And again, we care and people know why they're there. Yeah, caring is cool. Back to the beginning of it. Caring is cool. Caring is cool. Okay, so to end every episode, we play. Can we get matching baseball hats that say caring is cool? And can we spell it with a K? Done. Done. I'll order that on the way to the studio.

1:29:51Oh my God. What's the game?

1:29:52Justin Tranter:Okay. The game is called gag or drag. So gag means you love it. I love what I'm about. I'm going to give you options. I love it or drag. You hate it. Okay. Okay. Um, gag or drag mean gag. You love it. Drag. You hate it. Just refresh. Gag or drag being called difficult for having a point of view. Gag. Like I love that. You love, you love being called difficult. Well, I don't love being called difficult but if it's because i have a point of view call me difficult love it that's where i went that's a great no that's a great fucking answer gag or drag i think i know you already kind of said this gag or drag writing camps that put 12 people on one song how did you know she was going to talk about this drag i i deeply researched that's a group therapy session to me that's not a songwriting session but like so it's a drag you've turned me on to like four people in a room.

1:30:45Okay, cool. Yeah.

1:30:45Justin Tranter:Yeah. Um, gag or drag youth being prioritized over longevity. Oh, wait, youth being prioritized. Wait, how so? I'm confused by that one. Like being youth obsessed instead of like this talent could last for a long time. Oh, right. Drag. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Um, gag or drag when a label asks you to be more commercial? Drag. Well, especially for you, because you started so commercial that if someone asked you to be more commercial, you'd be like, bitch, this is going to be a Campbell's soup commercial. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. That's funny. Gag or drag reinvention eras? Oh, this is interesting because I'm a fan of that concept, but not the word reinvention.

1:31:36Like, I feel like there's like, because I feel like, like for me, I'm always me. And I'm just like discovering the version of myself now, but I'm not like from the outside in reinventing myself. Love, love that. So that makes me go drag weirdly.

1:31:53Justin Tranter:Yeah, because if it's too forced, then gross. Right. Yeah. But modern eras, vital energy eras, yes. Yeah, love. gag or drag the demo having more feeling than the final. Well, I mean, I'm a big demo love girl, right? So like, that's the high bar. Like, so, I mean, that's a, that's a drag. Like you have to aim to have that feeling of, and that's even like, so I even like, you know, tuning being a tool now for a very long time, like perfecting the soul out of something to me is a that's a draft yep right so like you want to me you want the magic of a demo yeah like there's something about a first take vocal right I always use a lot of it well but that's because you can sing a lot of times but I find that that's your natural like you're always like every vocal after the first one you're like trying to emulate something you did on that first take.

1:32:58Justin Tranter:Yep. In my opinion. Morgan did not write this question. So this is my own gag or drag I'm making up on the spot. Gag or drag being compared to Tiffany when what you both did was so different? I'm going to say it's a drag for both of us. Right? Because we are so different. Yeah. Like I used to be like Whitney Houston and Belinda Carlisle are like the same age. Why can people comparing them? Like, right? Like it's to me that different. Yeah. We're different vocalists. I always, I always say this about Tiffany. She can sing me under the table. She's got this voice. Like I toured with her. So I know like I'm in the steam and I'm doing the vocal warmups and I'm eating this and that and not eating this.

1:33:51And she's like, let's go. Like we're doing a gig. Like, and she can, she's like, the world can be crumbling around her and she's running just as fast as we can. She's like, you know, could have been at all, like belting. Like, she's incredible. Yeah.

1:34:10Justin Tranter:Yeah. She has a work ethic. Yeah. And I just want to take a second to, to compliment her. I mean. Because like, we just did a panel, a fan convention panel thing together. And she talks about it. Like she had a harder upbringing than me. Mine was charmed compared to her. Right. I had my mom, you know, she had a manager that was kind of Spangali like. I'll say it for her. Yeah. It was hard to be Tiffany. Yeah. And she came through it and out of it. And she tours internationally still. And she's like, you know, she had her Stranger Things moment with I think we're alone now. So cool. I always love when moments happen to people who are working really hard.

1:34:54Yeah. So it makes me emotional. Yeah. Because I hate, you know, it's a drag that anybody would take a sisterhood and try to create drama there. Yeah.

1:35:06Justin Tranter:Well, and I, what I think is because obviously you're so important to me because I became a songwriter. But I think the world comparing you to is so unfair because I say all the time, everyone in this room is sick of me saying it because I say it in so many episodes, but no one's mad that Meryl Streep didn't write her script. Right. So Tiffany, for me, I'm so grateful that she existed because then I became a Tommy James super fan. And I'll go back to Whitney, like Whitney Houston, like a Narda Michael Walden. And like, right. Some people are storytellers. Some singers are storytellers. Bring it back to collaboration.

1:35:44Justin Tranter:Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And to me, it was so unfair that you guys got pitted against each other and all women get pitted against each other in the press endlessly. And it's a shit show. But for me, even being so young, I could tell the difference of like this. Tiffany is interpreting. Right. And you are writing. And they're both so fucking valid. And they should not be considered the same. And she talks about now, too, that like, you know, she has since written a lot of her records and co-written her records in the last two decades, three decades. She wasn't allowed to in the beginning. She didn't, she wasn't empowered to do that.

1:36:19And by the way, it was magical, the pairing of her and I think we're alone now. And could have been. And like, I'm a big fan of Hold an Old Friend's Hand. I can't remember that writer's name right now, but it's one woman who wrote that song. Right? Like I'm so happy that song exists and Tiffany is singing it. So yeah, Yeah, like we're meant, that's meant to be a thing too. There are writers who don't sing and singers who don't write. And again, she now -

1:36:44Justin Tranter:And we all need each other. Has come and try, and yes, we all need each other. So yeah. What do you think is the biggest, if you could give one piece of advice about collaboration that you've learned about yourself that you wish you could have told yourself sooner? Oh. What is one piece of advice that you would say about collaborating specifically? To me, it's so easy. When you collaborate on a song, in my opinion, when I've collaborated on song, that is a song that never would have existed in the world if I didn't collaborate, right? So to be precious about doing things on your own just for the sake of the credit is ridiculous, I think, because like you can do that and you can collaborate.

1:37:25And there's just more music in the world that way.

1:37:28Justin Tranter:And what I think is - And it brings something out in you that you might not have known you had. And what's so important about you saying that, because I say that all the time, but I've never written a hit alone. You have written multiple number, written and produced and performed multiple number ones alone. So if you can say, hey, there's something valuable about what the other people bring. Oh my God. Everybody listen. God damn it. And listen, as an artist, the main, like the mark of a great collaboration is when I get on a stage, when I get on a stage, like the Body Remembers album is full of collaborations.

1:38:03Pretty much melodies and lyrics are mine, but like they were inspired by somebody's chords and tracks and things. Right. And I never once get on a stage and think like, Oh, this is somebody else's song. I'm doing right. Or somebody else had, this is their part.

1:38:18Justin Tranter:Yeah. Right. It's now become, it's fully my expression. Yeah. Right. And if you're a true artist, like you're not going to let your ego get in the way of making something truly great. No, like you're owning it. Right. And if you're owning it as an artist and it can still be your, again, because you help people channel their voice. Right. So that's powerful. So like when I get out there, it's my voice and my expression and how whoever all contributed, I'm so grateful. Yeah. You know, so it's amazing. But it is cool because like in the beginning, I did feel like I had something to prove because, you know, if it was written by Debbie Gibson, so and so and so and so, people would have been like, she really probably didn't write that.

1:39:03Justin Tranter:Right. Right. So the fact that I'm like, great, I've done it. I've proven it to myself and everybody. I could sit at a piano and do this myself. Then it just becomes like, it becomes more fun to collaborate with nothing to prove. Yeah. Agreed. You are my hero. Oh my God. Thank you so, so much for being here. And thank you for looking this fabulous while being here. We've got rhinestones and we, we, we did not plan the denim outfits. We didn't. I threw this in my bag. hopped a flight this morning. This was in my tote, my carry on. And then, um, um, we stopped for coffee on the way and I like did the girl thing of, there was no restroom.

1:39:43So there's, I had a t-shirt on and I put the corset over it and then shimmied the t-shirt. Only girls. It's amazing. It's a special skill we have.

1:39:51Justin Tranter:Um, and hearing, um, you sing parts of your songs in my living room, was a pretty amazing moment for me. Oh my God, thank you. It's like deeply emotional. It's really crazy. Thank you. I tried to not do this the whole fucking time. I have never seen you cry. Oh my gosh. You're the reason that I... I need to get up. You're the reason I wrote songs. You're the reason my parents got to retire early because you made songs real to me. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Oh my God. So fucking cool. I'm so honored that like anything that I did in my life got to inspire you to get all. Because of all of it, you guys have so many incredible songs and it's just like the universe doing this whole chain of chain reaction.

1:40:44Justin Tranter:Thank you. Watch Unfamous on Spotify. Subscribe for no ads. I'll see you there.