Emei + Ricky Reed | How Radical Honesty Builds Great Artists

23:33And then someone else, I don't, I do not remember who told me this. They were like, it's about walking through doorways. Literally change your perspective. Just go through a door, come back, like do a few doorways and watch what happens. This makes so much sense because I just see him walking through doorways. Things are clicking. Trying to get maximum entries.

23:55Justin Tranter:There, I mean, there always is the like, oh, I, let me just go pee and I'll figure this out. But it probably is just the doorway. I don't know. Something about it. literally seeing things from a different perspective. Yeah. Literally. No, that's, that's, there is, and also I think it's just like leaving because when there's three people, four people, two people like obsessing over something. Yeah. I think like the act of like leaving and coming back to it to think on your own can be really, really helpful. When you guys were making Night at the Opera, was there a moment where it was like, okay, this is the vision for the body of work?

24:35Justin Tranter:or what did you have the vision from this jump? Oh my gosh. That was pretty crazy. Yeah. So we like, we probably, remember our first demo? It was like a minute and a half. The first demo? The first night at the opera. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the super high energy. It was just verse, chorus. Yes. And we, I don't even think we had the pain and the gag and the drama. Nope. We didn't have that. Nope, didn't have that. None of the three. Now that's on a lot of hats. Yeah. Yeah. But we sent this to a few people, like to Steve, your manager, to a few people at Atlantic on the Nice Life team.

25:10And there was so much creative around the other songs, videos, video treatments, things that were getting well-baked for this EP. And we sent everyone a 90-second demo. We're like, scratch everything we're going. Start over, sorry. This is the new direction. We just turned the whole thing around off a 90-second demo. We had a title and we had an energy. And we were like, literally scrap the video, scrap this, scrap that. We're turning it around. I mean, I filmed a whole nother music video for What's the Point? Like entirely. Like we were going to start. I feel like I didn't even have a project title yet, but I like knew what I wanted to do.

25:44And we like, we went down a whole path. And then Night at the Opera changed everything. So I was like, well, obviously it has to be theatrical and dramatic if we're going to call it Night at the Opera.

25:55Justin Tranter:So for you as the person who has to then go promote it and perform it, how helpful is it that like all of a sudden there was a whole vision instead of just like some songs oh my i mean i feel like when i'm writing a project i'm waiting for that moment like the whole time what's the difference between this project and stuff you've done before in your in your heart not in terms of like playlisting and blah blah like in your heart well so weirdly i do think this always happens to me where it's like the last second things will click Like it's always happened this way. Even with Rabbit Hole, literally the same thing.

26:33I was like, one day I was just like, I think I went to Joshua Tree and I had all these songs running around and I just didn't know how they related to each other. And then went into nature and was like, oh, and it's the same thing with this project. But this one is very different in regards to how it feels in my soul because I wrote it when I was like down bad, like grieving my grandma and just like a very sad year. That's right, yeah. So yeah, so I think that this project just came from such an emotional place. Like honestly, like release day was like pretty intense for me. Like I feel like I had like, like grief is weird, you know?

27:11It's been like a year and a half and I feel like because the songs were out, I like woke up that morning and was like, I am so griefy today. Like I'm so sad and I'm like, I don't know why. And I'm like, oh, it's because the songs are out. All the songs about this are out. Yeah, so that's definitely different. it.

27:27Justin Tranter:Ricky, what, you know, you've made so much amazing music as a producer, writer, and now an executive. What feels different to you about the stuff you do with MA versus everything else, whether that's a process answer or whether that's a product answer? That's a, that's a great, that's a great question. I mean, one thing that's really, really exciting about it. And I think I thought I've had this idea a little bit in the past with like some acts that I work with, but it's so clearly like, um, it's just such a solid idea with you is like that we're, we're the only people we're speaking to are the fans.

28:05Don't care about strangers, people that haven't heard you yet making new fans. We just want to drive your fans crazy. That's the only goal. And like, I learned a little bit of that, you know, different kind of act, but I learned a little bit of that working with the Maria's working with Tinashe a little bit, But like if you just drive the fans wild, that's the best way to expand. And then they spread the message. They do the work. Yeah, they do the work for you. But I think what was also really fun is that this is one of the first times where we've been creatively, you know, working on a project together.

28:40But you guys really, you, I'm saying you guys, you and your manager, Steve, really allowed me and some of the team in on some of the big decisions about like the release cadence. Oh, yeah. how we're going to, how this is going to be Night at the Opera. It's going to be a whole EP, but there's more releases. There's more coming. I won't say too much, but there's more coming that is all part of this world and collaborating together on. It was so cool. Cool. Because oftentimes for me, I just write and produce and then kind of cross my fingers. Right. Make a few phone calls, you know, like that had been the way things go.

29:16And it's been really cool to be in the weeds with you guys on it. That's really cool. Yeah.

29:20Justin Tranter:Can you guys each, and obviously your journey together is new-ish. So you can go back to before you met each other, it can be your own separate journeys. Can you think about moments, whether it was a gig, a session, early on that really made you like cringe? And now you like realize without that moment, you would not be the artist you are today. And I say artist is like a broad term, not just a pop star. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Oh, man. The worst show I've ever played. Great. Let's go. These are the kind of stories we want. Tell us the worst and then tell us how you overcame it.

29:58Oh, man. Okay. It was in high school. I was playing our school meeting. Literally nobody remembers this for sure, but I will forever remember it.

30:09Justin Tranter:We're going to find out in the comments. It was Thursday morning at 10 a.m. and everybody had to be there. You know what I'm saying? The whole school. That's the worst part. It was mandatory. I need more details. How large is the student body? It was like 1 ,200. Oh, fuck. That's big. Like an auditorium. I went to a school of like 140 people. So 1 ,200 is terrifying. No, it was big. And it was all four grades. And I had played school meeting before, I think freshman year. But I was a freshman. Everybody was like, oh, she's so cute. And everybody was like, yeah. You know what I mean? But then I was a senior.

30:42And I did this program called Young Arts. Do you guys know about Young Arts? It's great. But it basically was this awesome program I did. And then I was on school meeting and I was like, I had a PowerPoint and told the school about this awesome program I did. And I'm a theater kid and a nerd and a try hard. So obviously, you know what I mean? And so I'm there being like, this is awesome. And then I said, not very good at talking sometimes, but I was like, it was the first time that I ever felt like I was surrounded by people who really cared about what they did. Oh.

31:16Justin Tranter:So accidentally insulting the entire student body. And then the whole student body. And the teachers, yeah. And everybody went, ooh. And I was like, oh no. And I was like, oh no. And then after that, I had to go up and sing a song. No! Hello, my little unfamous friends. So the thing about the algorithm, Lil Miss algorithm, is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it. So if you follow this podcast, what do the old school YouTubers say? Like, subscribe, and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people.

32:05Justin Tranter:So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. That's crazy. What'd you say? What'd you say? It was a Sia song. I think it was. Oh, so I really, Sia writes the hardest melodies in the world. I think it was Bird Set Free maybe. I don't know. It was one of the Sia songs and to be fair, I killed it. I'm sure. I'm sure. I killed it, but it was like the coldest, like most like just upset crowd I've ever sang. And it was like a karaoke track. It was like super not the vibe. And it was just like, oh my God. See, what I think you, which you probably subconsciously and consciously learned from this moment is now, as Ricky's pointed out multiple times, you treat your fan base with the most beautiful love and respect.

32:55Justin Tranter:Oh yeah. Because you learn what happens when you disrespect. Oh my God. It was so bad. Disrespect and then perform. It was so bad. Unbelievable. It was so bad. So yeah, that one probably goes down in history for like a brutal one. Oh, that's that because we always talk about, especially in theater, like don't disrespect your audience. No, that's normally like a metaphorical statement. It was literal. Right. And I was like, I didn't mean it like that. Like I was just trying to be like, this is awesome. Go sign up. Oh, my God. I love it. Yeah. So now I'm very in tune with energy. I think like especially with the crowd, like I feel like I've always been in tune.

33:33But I feel like after that moment, I've been very like I know exactly what's going on down there, you know.

33:38Justin Tranter:So Ricky, do you remember? Oh my gosh. I was, I was kind of running down. Like there's, there's been so many and I, and I have to, I bring them up for my kids now, like being a father pretty often when something rough or difficult or trying happens for them, trying to say, you know, going through this stuff is what makes you strong. It's what makes you good, blah, blah, blah. But it's been countless for me. I'm thinking about, you know, the, the days of playing to empty rooms on tour, various rejections in all shapes and sizes. But the really, really, really cringe one, you use that word? I got a bad one for you.

34:18Oh, let's go. For a performer. You can relate to this time period too because we were playing around the same time. Yeah. So earlier than when we were signed, when we were both really wanting to be signed in the early 2000s, I had a band that was kind of a pop punk amalgamation of sorts, early 2000s, early aughts thing. It was my, you know, it was my first like time really taking a swing at it, coming out of high school, early college. And we got what they used to call a showcase. I don't know if people do this anymore. Where a major record label invites you to come down and do like a performance in a rehearsal studio.

34:59So we came down from the Bay Area. Our band, we set up all of our gear. We put up our lights that we got from Guitar Center. Yes. Let's go. It was like, and it was a noon. It was scheduled for noon at SIR in Hollywood. You know, it's like brighter than it is in here right now. And it was for a guy running Capitol Records named Andy Slater. Okay. And we were all set up to go. you know like bleach tips you know already honey it's not a show if you didn't bleach your tips we're talking like jinko's bleach tips like it's it's early 2000 yeah this is like love it yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean that could be the end of the story and it would be pretty

35:47Justin Tranter:by the way both of those things are coming back though so so young people oh you looked amazing Yeah, it's kind of a vibe. Yeah. So we're supposed to play at noon, and obviously everyone's sweating bullets. This is a huge deal. Capitol Records, oh my God. And half hour passes, hour passes, two hours pass. About two and a half, three hours later, the CEO of Capitol walks in with a little entourage. And we get up on stage and can't really see them too clearly. and we start performing and like a little bit in the song, I'm like singing and looking, squinting my eyes. Like, I think I see Art Alexakis from Everclear, the singer of the famed, who's like one of the biggest bands in the world at that time.

36:36I was a big fan. And I'm like, and then while squinting, and we're doing the full on like jumping on stage, like trying to keep everyone hype in this like rehearsal studio. And probably a minute, minute and a half in, And the guy who showed up three hours late just walks out mid-song with all of his entourage. Oh! Except one. And I'm pretty much ready to tear up just a combination of, you know, adrenaline and anxiety and all this stuff. So we finished the song. And there's one guy in the back and he does a little clap. And it's Art Alexakis from Everclear. He stayed. And he was like, well, I'll say this.

37:19you guys got balls and then he walked out what

37:27honestly

37:31I respected him so much for that he gave us something he gave us something he said well you're courageous and I'll give you that but that was it oh

37:42Justin Tranter:okay so I have to share a similar story please so my band send me Precious Weapons, send me Pupu Wee Wee to those who know us best. We got asked to do a showcase and a rehearsal space for Columbia Records in New York City. 2006, our original guitar player, who was an amazing co-writer for me, but just like hated performing, hated a lot of it. We rehearsed the night before and he refuses to rehearse and refuses to even like check and make sure like his pedal board's working. Oh boy. And he's being like really shady to all of us of like, guys, come on, I fucking got it. Leave me alone. Screw you.

38:26Justin Tranter:Yeah, yeah, yeah. We go in, the executive who's thrilled, really hoping that his boss lets us, his name was Michael Kaplan. He's really hoping that the head of Columbia wants to sign us because he loves us and he's come to see our actual shows and our fan base was similar from what I've seen in videos of your fan base, It's a very similar, very passionate, small, but fucking mighty fan base. Yeah. And he says to me, hey, just make sure. Because I was very interactive with the audience. He's like, don't interact too much. Like, the guy in charge is very homophobic. Wow. And so it's already going to be a hard sell.

39:04Justin Tranter:And if you get, like, too playful with the audience, it's going to end. Like, verbally playful. Or even I would, like, jump in the audience sometimes. He's like, just don't. just fucking sing your ass off and call it a day. And I was like, at that point, right, it's 2006. The world is very homophobic and I want a fucking record deal. So I'm like, fine. You're like, okay. Well, then the guitar player's fucking pedal board, of course, because he refused to check it, is not working. So you got to kill time. So I got to kill time. I thought you were going to say, so you got to kill time. Oh, boy. Taking time, bum.

39:40Justin Tranter:I have to kill time. and my banter is basically just like drag queen banter right that's the humor i know that's the humor i slay and so i just go into a full drag stand-up routine because i was in full makeup and heels like and i just see the guy who wants so badly to sign us i just see him like crumble and die. That's so sad. And sang the songs and the head of the label left before. But we had at least 40. The whole company came. Everyone in the New York office came. So at least all the young people stayed for our set. But it was... We've all had these moments. Oh my God, that's crazy. We've all had the moments.

40:30Justin Tranter:How do you guys... I got through the tough moments by just going, I know I'm awesome oh yeah same I'm gonna figure this out is that your defense same I think after that that performance I got off stage and was like fuck all these people I was looking like they're gonna ask me for tickets one day and then I was like whatever but I obviously cried about it first yeah I think I think to do what we do like making art in public no matter how big or small the audience is even if it's a fucking showcase for three executives making art in front of people you have to put on a fucking a delusional set of armor to survive it how is that the same for you ricky or how do you how do you get through that i mean i i i do get angry i get like i mean for i think most people that would work with me in the studio wouldn't think that like anger is a very present thing in me and drives a lot of my work ethic and And, but it, it really does.

41:33Like when I, when I, because I've faced this kind of thing, it's so many stages in my career. Even, even now things come up where I'm like, we can't get a meeting or whatever the thing is, you know, I'm like. Oh, it never ends. That's the thing.

41:46Justin Tranter:You think when you get to the top. Yeah. That people will stop being shitty. They don't. No. They don't, girl. Get ready. Sorry. Oh my God. Yeah. No. So, I mean, I just, it, it, it, it drives me. it's a motivator but yeah but but it's hard it still hurts yeah yeah i i have said quite frequently on this podcast i'll say it again that i think anger is a great motivator as long as you don't it doesn't like it doesn't take over your whole day yeah if it like if it like fuels you for like a couple minutes a day awesome yeah but i think it's yeah it can be your engine it can't be your GPS. Yes, yes, yes.

42:31I like that.

42:31Justin Tranter:That's awesome. Anger can be your engine, not your GPS. That's awesome. Okay. I asked this on every episode, what song or it could be a video or a show videos, definitely dating me and Ricky. I don't know how important videos are to your generation, but what is the thing that I like to say ruined your life in a good way of like, oh my God, I'm so obsessed with this song or this performance that I have to be a musician now. There's no, my, I have, my life has changed because I just heard or saw this thing. Oh my God. There's so many that I literally had like five flashed through my mind already.

43:12I remember in college being so unbelievably obsessed with that performance of Yeba singing my mind. I think I watched it like eight times, like in a row. one day and I was like whoa anyways obsessed that was obsessed um I feel like as a kid it was like Selena Gomez naturally love Selena Gomez and the scene I had I had that cd that was my first cd actually yeah my parents like didn't really listen to pop music they're immigrants so I like had West Side Story in the car, you know, which was also elite. But it was, I mean, you

43:55Justin Tranter:can't go wrong. I know. Yeah. So anyways, yeah. So that's probably, those are the things that come up in my mind. And obviously like theater was like just everything. Yeah. So I mean, West Side Story and Selena Gomez in the scene, that's a pretty like lethal combo. That's pretty awesome. It was pretty lit. Can't lie. Amazing. That's awesome. I think, I mean, I grew up, my mom raised me on a lot of music. I was also like total MTV kid. I got a TV on layaway from Kmart when I was like in second grade and would just like wake up and watch. Do you remember The Grind? Of course. I would wake up and watch The Grind from like 7 to 7.30 in bed every day as a kid.

44:34But nothing drew me towards like a career in music until the first thing was some friends of mine said we're gonna there's a band playing in like this field in the town next to ours and i went and it was i want to say it was a band called project something it was a christian hardcore band there was about eight of us they had pa up on like hay bales like straw hay and there was like eight of and like the band was probably pissed whatever that no one showed up for this like festival, but I just saw this band in this field and I just never felt anything like that in my body and saw, ended up seeing so many other hardcore bands, punk bands in the East Bay and was just like drawn towards this, this feeling that it gave me.

45:24Yeah. But with all the music that I had, I'd been raised on it. I didn't go just towards that, but that seeing that for the

45:31Justin Tranter:first time um what was it about it was it the performance was it the audience was or just the whole thing like yeah i think it i think it was i think it was the volume i don't think i had experienced anything quite so loud impactful it was i was probably standing two feet away from this you know like 315 thing and shortly after that we went to the free tibet concert and i saw Beastie Boys. I saw Pumpkins. I saw a guy, a giant guy get his nose broken in a mosh pit. Pumpkins free Tibetans in Golden Gate Park. Fabulous. 1998 maybe. It was all that live experience did it for me. Yeah, I think live is I think in so many ways live can just I'm so glad that people are understanding how important the live show is again to an artist's journey because there's nothing It's more special than art in front of people, even though it's terrifying.

46:35Justin Tranter:Yeah. It's magical. Yeah. I mean, oh my gosh. It's so, it's crazy that I can, and all of us, we can write something that we are feeling and then a bunch of other people will listen to it and feel this. I mean, it's magic. It's so weird. Yeah. Like it is spiritual. It's so weird. Yeah. It does not make sense. Yeah. Well, in this new era, and you're going to go out, you touched on a tiny bit, but I'd love to dig in a little bit more if you don't mind. With all these songs about grief. Yes. How is it going to feel for you to go and play these songs? So I just did two small underplays with fans this last week.

47:19And it was like, I think the LA show might have been like top three of my life. Like it was, it was definitely special. like something about it and I think it's just I really care about these songs like in a very different way like I feel like I like every line I really really mean um and it's been really special to do that like even this under I think it was the it was release day so like three of the songs weren't even out yet you know and it was like there were people in the crowd who knew the songs and had signs up with the lyrics that weren't out yet. Like it was crazy. And it was like, it made me just freak out because like the songs just mean so much to me.

48:02It's crazy.

48:03Justin Tranter:It's just crazy. Ricky, when you're writing with somebody who's writing about something as vulnerable and intimate as grief, and I know because we've talked about it, but you're losing your grandma. Your grandma was like very close. It was a serious, serious person in your life to lose. Ricky, as like the producer, co-writer in that process, how do you approach something that delicate? Like we've all written a million songs about breakups or falling in love, blah, blah, blah. But this is a different level. How do you, do you put your brain in a different place or do you approach it the same? You got to be willing not to get a song that day.

48:47Yeah. You got to be totally willing to just talk talk and and share space with somebody yeah um i think that i think that you have to put everything that they're saying and everything that they're feeling as as a priority that goes so far above and beyond like that's it's always the priority what the artist is thinking and feeling and whatnot but sometimes like i do have a really hot beat that this would work on so let's try to let's move the tempo up you should try this and see actually might be cool you know but like in something in a situation like like this you have to really really really you got to like clear the deck um and then you have to build it in a way where everything like we did a we wrote a demo if you remember one of those songs it was like kind of a ballad um it kind of had a feeling of like a like a van morrison into the mystic or something had that that feeling to it and um i think that when i'm building the music around a subject like this i'm putting like a shaker on it or something i'm like really listening to like does this have that texture does this have a mood as if you're using a snap or a tambourine or any the smallest detail of an instrument has to be resonating at the same frequency of what the artist is talking

50:17Justin Tranter:about it's just like you just have to handle it with care wow that i'm so grateful that my ears aren't don't work in that way and like a specific because that would seems exhausting at the end of a day like that i will come back and my wife will be like you could Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right about grief today? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, you don't understand the tambourine wasn't sad enough. It wasn't sad. Yeah. Ricky, this question is specifically for you, but don't worry, I have a question specifically for you after. Ricky, what do you think people, well, actually, I'm going to make it even more specific.

50:54Justin Tranter:What do you think artists misunderstand about the artist development stage, about the development stage? Hmm. Oh, boy. What do artists misunderstand? About the early stages of building a career. That's a great question. Thank Morgan. I didn't write it. Morgan, that's a great question. Good luck.

51:28I think that there are some artists who are very, very blessed to be songwriters and world builders that are world class, essentially out of the womb. Right. There's some that just have this thing. Like, I feel like, have I ever even like worked with them like maybe once or twice I don't consider myself that way I've had to work really hard to get to a level of craft that is at a professional level but it's like I think that artists often don't realize that the more time and effort and craft they put into really amazing songwriting and world building around songs in the early stages will make them go farther, faster than just being like, I wrote some songs.

52:23My shit doesn't stink. I'm going to post about it a lot. Put it out now. Let's go right now. Yeah. And, but what is the challenge though, is that I also don't think now you have like the ability of the room to like rest on your laurels and like sit in a creative, like if you want to get your career going, you do also have to get things out and get moving so the approach that we take is trying to find some way to work so hard as to make really deep meaningful songs that are powerful and impactful and also stay aggressive as fuck with how we yeah roll it out yeah but i think that a not enough artists really take the time to like listen deeply and think deeply about what it is they're really trying to convey yeah yeah i think patience i know this is this is something that i'm learning from ricky and from everybody around me is like i'm so impatient as an artist i'm like i'm like i'm not getting any younger everybody you know like that's how i feel yeah but i'm like i i do think you need like what he was saying just patience yeah yeah something that we'll say often i mean there are times when it's like okay something just happened we got to get another record out in four to six weeks let's go go go but there's a lot of times where we can say pretty comfortably like look nobody is like waiting on this right i know you have a huge like a burning fire in you to get this out but like let's get the video right or let's get the plan right or whatever the thing is and that that can drive some people crazy i think it would drive me crazy honestly if the roles were reversed yeah totally get it but then what happens when we wait to get it right is you get a release that's like the way night at the opera looked and felt yeah you know we were going 100 miles an hour into something that we were kind of unsure about up until we

54:18Justin Tranter:took that little pause yeah it was really helpful how do you balance the right because promoting yourself has always been a thing as a musician as a comedian as a drag queen whatever whatever whoever we're lucky enough to talk to on this podcast we are in this world now where like the content creation very much the promotional material very much has to come from the artist it's not just doing interviews it's not just going to radio stations how do you balance the vision of an artist versus the vision of a promotional content creator uh-huh it's i mean it's two separate jobs. I mean, yeah, it's two full-time jobs, like completely.

55:08And I think I think about it. I try to think about the content side of things very logically in the sense of like, I make my plan and I stick to it. You know, I have days where I look at my plan and go, does this make sense? How do I do this? I have like a cycle that I loop through. I make it very like functionally like logistics oriented so that I can kind of separate my like emotional creative brain and focus on artistry in that way so that I have like separation you know what I mean because like I don't know I think it's I think that if I just check the box every day and I'm putting my stuff out there then I'm doing the best I can do yeah and that is what I have control over.

55:52Justin Tranter:Yeah. And there are not that many things I have control over. So I feel like that is how I kind of like work in that world. And do you like, do you tell your team, Hey, this is how I want to do it. Or does everyone just like, I just, anyone who's trying to learn how to pull this off, because we all know there's this endless discourse about like, what would have happened if Kurt Cobain had to make TikToks, you know? And it's like, it's like, well, but he did have to go to like 300 radio stations around the world. Like there's always been a version of it. So how do you build that for yourself? Do you like set boundaries with your team or how does it happen?

56:28Nobody, I mean, content is like my wheelhouse. I feel like I actually don't, I don't really, I feel like when I get people's feedback, it's actually not that helpful because it actually messes with my flow. And like, I know what I do work. So I kind of just try to keep it going. You know what I mean? And I ask for help when I need it, but it's mostly just run by me right now, at least. So, yeah. But I would say it's, I literally, if I don't post, the issue with TikTok is that if I don't post, I feel unbelievably guilty. Like I have like trained myself. Wow. Whereas like, it'll be 12 o 'clock, I'll be in bed and I'll be like, I haven't posted.

57:10And I'll have to pull up my phone and be like, I gotta post. Because there's something about, it's my own pressure. It's not like anybody else. It's literally me being like, oh, wow. Am I really not going to send this lottery ticket in today?

57:23Justin Tranter:Well, I feel like I am the exact same way. Obviously now I don't have to promote myself in the same way as you do. But I was such, I have like such like good student disease. I used to, if I was, because I was such an overachiever my whole life. And if my mom would be like, hey, you were doing this and this. You're not going to do your homework tonight. I need you to go to sleep. I will write a note for you. Totally. I would try to go to bed and I would like sneak out of bed at 1 a.m. while my mom was asleep and do the homework because I couldn't imagine. And when I tell people these stories, they get so shocked that like a creative person was terrified about failing.

58:07Justin Tranter:And I'm like, well, but I didn't get here because I'm a genius. I got here because I'm upset. I don't want to fail. No, that's how I got here. I relate so heavy. I relate so heavy. In high school, oh, this was crazy. So in high school, I like, you know, had to do the standardized test stuff, la, la, la, college, la, la, la, la, la. And I never had any like test prep. What I would do is I would print full practice tests. I'd wake up at 5 a.m. and do a full ACT practice test before school, then cut out all the problems I did wrong, put it in a notebook, and like write paragraphs about why I got it wrong and how I'm not going to get it wrong next time.

58:47I was like a psycho. Self, what is the word? Like, yeah, like just like yelling at myself. Yeah, exactly. So nobody told me to do that, but I had to get the scores for some reason. I think they all saw you putting yourself into your own detention. And they were like, she's punishing herself enough. It's true. Oh my God, I got put in detention.

59:09Justin Tranter:I got detention one time for a whole week and I could not, I literally was the most embarrassed I maybe have ever been in my whole life. You were embarrassed. I couldn't believe it. And you know why I got detention? I got detention twice, but the second story is so dark that we can't ruin the day. But the first time was because my mom had me, because she drove me to school because I couldn't take the bus because it wasn't safe for me because the bullying was so bad. Anyway, I said I wasn't going to get dark and I just did. So my mom had to drive me because I couldn't take the bus. and she made me late too many times.

59:42Justin Tranter:My own mother made me late. And so I got detention because it was like if you were late, like by the fourth time they gave you detention for a week. And I was like, oh my God, everyone's going to think I'm a loser. Meanwhile, you were getting cred being in detention. Literally, it was like probably the coolest thing that ever happened to me. It was like the one week the kids didn't make fun of me. This is so embarrassing. I just had a wave of a memory and I was debating sharing it. I was just going to share it. One time on a Saturday night, I went to detention. Didn't have detention. I went so that I could lock in and do my homework.

1:00:23And I sat there. Damn, that's the overachiever Olympics. The teacher was like, why are you here? And I'm like, because I felt that I would be more productive here. Oh, my. I'm so embarrassed oh my god that's crazy

1:00:39Justin Tranter:the thing about theater kids is we're all the same we're all the same wow always end every episode with a game called gag or drag gag means you love it drag means you hate it okay gag or drag accidentally liking someone's Instagram post from 2018 drag what What? Who would say gag? Sometimes I do it just to fuck with people's minds. Gemini. Yeah. Total Gemini behavior. Just like, I want them to think that I was like just stalking them. Even though I literally am just like, I'm just going to see what happens if I just go back and see what happens. That's awesome. That's hilarious. So for me, I guess it's not accidental though.

1:01:27Justin Tranter:So that's why it's a gag. Yeah, right, right, right, right. Okay. Gag or drag voice notes longer than three minutes. Like sending a text? Sending a voice note. Gag, gag, gag. Uh, drag. I love it. I have this friend who like sends me such long voice notes and I just listen and she's just, she's just walking around her house. Yeah. And I think it's fucking hilarious. That's, I will not, I've begun, I've begun reading the voice notes. That's fair. I try, but then like half the time it doesn't make sense. Yeah. And I'm guilty because I will send them if it's like a creative thing, especially when I'm like executive music producing movie projects, when I'm trying to like explain why I made a choice or explain how someone has to fix something for me, sometimes a voice note is the only way.

1:02:14Justin Tranter:But then I'm like, this is going to be four minutes and this person's going to hate me. And I'm going to repeat myself four times. Morgan, normally you write these questions to make our guests uncomfortable, but you're actually exposing things about me today. I needed to switch it up. they were too polite you're like fuck this okay gag or drag um songs that were supposed to be jokes becoming fan favorites oh gag gag i have so many yeah it's gonna be gag for me yeah yeah yeah yeah how do you because i know some artists are like oh no this is now like the most requested song and it was like a a joke song i wrote when i was 19 and now i'm gonna have to play it till the day I die.

1:02:58Justin Tranter:You love it. I think it's hilarious. Yeah. I think it's hilarious. I'm like, I have a song called you are bad. That was like fully a joke. The only reason it came out is because people on TikTok liked it. I like wasn't even, I was like, this is guys, this is such a fucking joke. I just went on rhyme zone and went motherfucker. And then all the lines were anyways. It's hilarious. Yeah. I think I will play it until I die and I'll have fun with it. Yeah, love. Gag or drag trusting your gut over market research? Gag. Putting your gut first, gag or drag. Gag. Yeah. Oh, yeah. How do you, Ricky, as if you haven't noticed, Ricky runs like a very successful indie label.

1:03:47Justin Tranter:So how often does like research come up in your daily life? Let's pick daily just to, just to make it a more fun question. Actually a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Actually a lot. Especially when we're looking at new artists. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's a daily, it's really like, I don't want to say a daily battle, but it's like a something I'm considering constantly. I'm like, does this make sense for me or for us? Or is this just something that's like interesting right now? And I think that what really like carves the path of the career is like how you respond to all those like individual small questions.

1:04:31Yeah. But it's got to be instinct first.

1:04:36Justin Tranter:Yeah. It's always been for me. Love it. Gag or drag writing a song in an hour? Gag. Ooh, Ricky. See, this is a producer. I knew this was happening. As a songwriter, because when I produce, it's like only for like huge movies or some shit. It's a different thing. Huge is the wrong word. It's a huge project. I don't produce in the way you do, like finishing records in the micro level. I only produce in the macro level, I should say. Have you ever? I love an hour. I think it's fabulous. I've written so many hits an hour, but I know that question always stresses producers. It's really, well, it's really, it's because it's kind of like what song?

1:05:10I will say this. I think any song that has been finished in an hour is a gag for me because they have been hits. Right. But there have been, I've worked with artists, songwriters. I've worked with people that like are sort of like trying to do that. Trying to write a song in an hour. Oh, on purpose. Like that's how you know it's good. Yes, exactly. And some of the most important songs I've ever been a part of were literally, and people love to slander this, but I think like some of the songs that I've written that have taken, you know, a month, several months of deep thought, long conversations.

1:05:50Like we're not really, yeah. Like we're not really saying anything in the second verse. And this song is so powerful and so important and meaningful right now in this cultural moment. And you're a big artist with something to say, like, and then, okay. You're in, and then you're in Europe for two weeks, you're coming back. Like, but let's, let's have another conversation about this. Like it's not doing it in a way that you're trying to make a hit or trying to engineer something like fake or try hard. It's really like thinking deeply about what we're saying here. And so I have had experiences too where the opposite can also really be true.

1:06:26Yeah. But writing a hit in an hour is top tier experience. I mean, it's the best.

1:06:32Justin Tranter:Okay, gag or drag, keeping a lyric that might be deemed terrible, but you keep it because it makes you laugh. Gag. Gag, gag, gag, gag, gag, gag, gag. I, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just miss humor in pop music so bad. And it's sometimes like when you, when, when rappers are funny, it gets the respect it deserves. When songs, melodic songs are funny. Singing has funny lyrics. A lot of times people deem it bad. And I'm like, no, we should be able to be funny too. Yeah. I agree. Thank you. I think funny lyrics are, they're making a comeback and it's time. That's like when I think about the significance of Sabrina Carpenter, I'm like, thank you so much for just like having fucking funny.

1:07:22And clearly, and everyone knows that to be that funny, you have to be smart. Yeah. And to do it in a song, you got to be a genius. Yeah. So thank you for that. Thank you for that.

1:07:32Justin Tranter:Thank you, Amy and Sabrina. Yeah. Gag or drag an artist being told one more tweak. Gag, bro. as a producer. Can we just get just one more? A hundred times. I can't say gag or drag to that to be honest. We normally offer a meh. I forgot to offer you a meh option. Yeah, it's a meh. It's a meh. It's a meh. I think if it makes it better, obviously gag. Yeah. But what if it doesn't? That's the whole relationship right there. One question. That's it. That's it. Me at one point when we were finishing night at the opera, I called Steve and I was like, I'm losing faith, man. I don't know. I don't know.

1:08:13We've written this chorus like 50 times. And I was like, I don't know. And Steve was like, you just, you guys are almost there. You're almost there. And then it was the best thing ever.

1:08:22Justin Tranter:And you were almost there. And you got there. We were almost there. It's true. What have the two of you learned from working together? This is not a gag or drag. This is a, to summarize. Drag. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Just madness. What have you learned from each other that has nothing to do with music. Ooh. Morgan doesn't fuck around. We ask real questions on this podcast. Whoa. I can go first. Yeah, go first. I mean, you lost your grandma, you know, in under, like less than a year later, I lost my mom. Yeah. And talking to you about grief, like helping you through your grief when I had not yet experienced it was, obviously it was like felt meaningful and talking to somebody about that, even when you're not also suffering can be, can feel good or feel cathartic or whatever the thing is.

1:09:22But after my mom passed and we spoke, I was like, dude. And then you were like, okay, this is going to happen. That's going to happen. And so it was just, I don't know, pretty wild that in our first year of working together, we both experienced that. And I think that you really taught me a lot, you know, figuratively and kind of literally as far as like practice and techniques and things for dealing with grief that I really appreciate. Oh, wow. I think it's hard to understand grief if you haven't gone through it. I think it's like, yeah, especially someone as close as your mother. I mean, that is, yeah.

1:10:00Yeah. Yeah. I think this is something I've learned. I think recently I've been working with people I've always looked up to, including both of you. And I feel like the more successful the people I've been working with have been, the more I'm like, y 'all are just good people who are grounded and don't have like ridiculous egos. And you go into the room and you just treat people like people. And that is why you're successful. And I think that that has been like, I don't know. I think that's huge. And I don't think people know that like out there.

1:10:47Justin Tranter:Well, thank you. You know? Yeah. And it really makes a huge difference like i even think about i mean every session i've had with you for sure it's like i feel so listened to i feel like we are you know just collaborators truly and then even the session with you for what's the point it was very much like it was so easy to talk to you guys about like what was going on in my life and i think that like well your stories were so juicy i was i was i was popcorn i was like let's go you're like this is great I was like, oh my gosh. Tell me about the next tragedy that happened after that. And I was like, oh, thank God I'm not in my 20s anymore.

1:11:24Justin Tranter:It's true. It's true. That was, yeah. No, it's, I think, I think that there's, I think that mean people can have a run of hits. Yeah. To last a decade plus, it's, you have to be obsessed with the craft. And you, I think if you're obsessed with the craft, there's a kindness because you're there for a greater good. You're there to just keep doing great things because the point of like proving yourself because that was huge for me. I needed to prove that I could write music that the whole world liked. It was in me since I was young. I had to do it. Now that I've proven it, it's just like, well, I'm still here because I think it's really awesome.

1:12:03It's awesome.

1:12:04Justin Tranter:Songs are magic. Songs are magic. It's so awesome. To end it, you guys have made a fucking beautiful body of work that just came out. What do you hope people, if you could hope one thing that people take away from listening to the whole project, what is it? Writing this project helped me through the worst year of my life, like hands down. So I'm hoping that I can help somebody else through their life as well. That's it. Love it. That's it. I couldn't put it any better than that. Yeah, that's great. Love it. That's it. Everybody, Ricky Reed and Emmy!

1:12:42Justin Tranter:Thank you for having us. Thank you for coming. It's so fun. Let's go. Oh my God.

1:12:50Justin Tranter:Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations. And also, pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday.

1:13:41Justin Tranter:wayfair every style every home