In short
Grace VanderWaal and Erin Cannata discuss growing up as “childstar”/early session-circuit writers, using music to process vulnerability, and how their collaboration works (high-energy, playful, but still finishing songs). They also share origin stories, success philosophy, and collaboration advice.
Guest backgrounds
Grace VanderWaal is a singer-songwriter/actress known for writing early and co-writing songs; Erin Cannata is a producer/songwriter and creator of the album Child Star, who grew up around music studios and started session writing around age 12.
Key claims
Writing turns personal experiences into an “objective art piece” that feels safer with strangers; collaboration requires fun and not obsessing over tiny details; success is making songs that live for years after you’re gone.
Notable examples
Their album Child Star includes “Fade” and “Behavioral Problems” (a tantrum concept); “Brand New” tackles early sexualization nuance; Erin’s “hotel room acoustic guitar for two lovers” gig led to her career.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOGuest Introductions
0:03 to 0:32
Justin introduces Grace VanderWaal and Eren Cannata, encouraging them to introduce each other.
“So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for.”
Guest Introductions
1:09 to 2:04
Justin introduces Grace VanderWaal and Eren Cannata, encouraging them to introduce each other.
“uh whole my entire life changed when i started collaborating uh started co-writing songs my whole life changed.”
First Meeting and Chemistry
2:04 to 3:56
Grace and Eren discuss how they first met and their initial chemistry in writing sessions.
“So Aaron, would you like to introduce Grace?”
Creative Process and Vibe
3:56 to 4:45
The duo reflects on their creative process and maintaining a fun vibe while writing.
“for the record that day or if we didn't, but we definitely hit it off.”
The Art of Collaboration
4:45 to 6:30
They discuss the importance of collaboration in songwriting and how it evolves over time.
“Or did it take a while to start kicking ass?”
Starting Young in Music
6:30 to 7:40
Grace shares her experience starting the songwriting circuit at a young age and its impact.
“Because some people get hung up on the details.”
Writing with Strangers
7:40 to 9:38
Grace discusses the unique process of writing with strangers and the safety it provides.
“Well, I wrote very differently when I was young.”
Balancing Fun and Focus
9:38 to 12:27
They chat about maintaining a balance between having fun and keeping the session productive.
“I feel like that would be such a disservice to this job.”
Importance of Extended Collaboration
12:27 to 14:03
Justin emphasizes the value of longer collaboration for deeper songwriting connections.
“And I definitely think it sounds chaotic.”
The Creative Process Behind 'Child Star'
14:03 to 19:20
Discover the importance of collaboration and emotional challenges in songwriting.
“And things that you say the first day become very apparent.”
Show all 21 chapters
A Unique Gig Experience
19:20 to 27:02
Hear a humorous and surprising story about an unconventional performance gig.
“like, cause I used to be in a band for many years and it's like, do you miss performing?”
Boy Band Nostalgia
27:02 to 28:00
Explore the nostalgia of boy bands and their impact on music preferences.
“We might need to move this to, it'll be the bumper at the start of the episode.”
Favorite Boy Band Songs
28:00 to 29:00
Discussing favorite boy band songs and pop influences from their youth.
“Yeah, you were the tease and then the main event.”
Pop Stars and Gay Awakenings
29:00 to 30:50
Reflecting on pop stars like Selena Gomez and their impact on personal identities.
“No, no, what were, what were songs that, what was the first like pop star that you were able to, not like one from the past that your parents loved and then you ended up loving.”
Songs That Ruined Our Lives
30:50 to 32:40
Exploring songs that inspired them to pursue music, discussing their impact.
“Sometimes in sessions with her, I'm just like, fuck.”
Redefining Success in Music
32:40 to 35:30
Discussing how their definitions of success in the music industry have evolved.
“If this, if you were a movie, then I'd be the right guy and you'd be the, I'd be like, I was just like.”
The Changing Landscape of Music
35:30 to 37:30
Talking about the shift in music industry gatekeeping and success metrics.
“because I don't have to worry about it really.”
Advice to Younger Selves
37:30 to 41:40
Sharing reflections and advice they would give their younger selves regarding self-acceptance.
Gagged or Dragged Game
41:40 to 42:00
Playing a fun rapid-fire game about current trends and preferences.
“Everyone watching, don't shave and try to make money.”
Rapid Fire Questions: Gag or Drag
42:00 to 45:52
Participants engage in a fun game where they express their opinions on various trends.
“Or you can just gag because you love it so much.”
Advice on Collaboration
45:52 to 47:16
The guests share crucial advice for successful collaboration in the music industry.
“To end it with a little bit of advice for anyone who's watching or listening who is trying to collaborate in any medium, in any genre, What is one piece of advice that you would give to people about collaboration?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook.
0:32turn it up storm has zero sugar and 200 milligrams of caffeine so you can turn that workout up a notch good energy in good energy out energy for life i was once hired to play acoustic guitar in
0:48Justin Tranter:a hotel room for two lovers for two lovers i was i was
0:58Justin Tranter:hello welcome to my podcast i am justin tranter and this is unfamous a podcast about famous people and the unfamous people that make the art with them that makes them famous as someone who uh whole my entire life changed when i started collaborating uh started co-writing songs my whole life changed. I wanted to do a podcast and have amazing conversations about the beauty and the struggle and the glamour of collaboration. So we are here today with two very brilliant people who I know pretty well, just to be honest with everybody. I know these people both pretty well. Grace and I wrote together many years ago.
1:43Justin Tranter:Aaron and I write together almost every day. And they have made an album together that is really unbelievable and really beautiful and what we do in this moment instead of me doing long introductions about each of you I ask both of you to introduce each other brag about each other so you don't need to list resumes you don't need to know you don't need to list resumes you don't need to just like sort of like introduce each other how you would whether you're at a party or whatever it would be but instead of me being boring the two of you who work together very often the two of you introduce each other.
2:21Justin Tranter:So Aaron, would you like to introduce Grace? Okay. Well, hi. Hello, everyone. Ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together for Grace VanderWaal. Grace is an accomplished singer, writer, actress, former ukulele player.
2:47And And the way she's looking at me right now, you know, it's... I'm just like, imagine we're at a party. She's also confused and... Lost and scared. And lost and scared. Grace VanderWaal, everybody. Yay! This is Erin Cannata, sometimes confused, lost and scared. Most of the time speaking about something that you don't really know about, but you just kind of nod and smile. the creator of many large large records uh the largest being child star and yeah
3:30Justin Tranter:okay so when you guys first started writing together was it like the typical la pop writing circuit where it was like just one day or did you meet before you started writing or or how did, tell me the moment you guys met. I think we met in a session. Yeah. I think we met in a session the first day, but I don't know if we wrote something for the record that day or if we didn't, but we definitely hit it off. We definitely were like, oh, vibes are high. And, you know, we started to throw a bunch on the calendar and just kinda, we kinda just put it all together after that you know yeah i think it was a session i remember now we had like a two three day long session for the viewers sometimes you have like follow-up sessions right like if we don't finish a song or something and we were set up that way which allowed us like if we had a one-off it might have been like oh he was really really cool but like maybe wouldn't have gone down but it was because we had like another day and another day and then you kind of start losing your mind when it's set up like that you kind of stop making music you kind of just start like fucking around and yeah I think that's what like probably set off the relationship was it at the beginning was it like because I I know in some of my sessions you're like oh just like we got along really well so let's keep doing it or sometimes it's like I actually it was more about the writing was so good let's keep doing it or both was it more of like a vibe thing that like started the relationship or Or was it like, oh, this is like writing-wise we're kicking ass at the beginning?
5:11Justin Tranter:Or did it take a while to start kicking ass? Well, I would always be with a writer. Yeah. Yeah. I think we like round-robin experiencing psychosis in different times. And I think that worked out for us. Yeah. You know what I mean? Can you explain that? Well, you know, like you get into your modes like, it's got to be like this. It's got to be like this. And then you're like, then you like kind of tuck her out and you calm down. And then she's like, it's got to be like this. It's got to be like this. And like, I think, you know, that happening over and over again kind of creates the ebb and flow of something.
5:45Justin Tranter:I will say there was times where I was in the studio next to you guys and would run into you in the kitchen. And it was like, oh, whatever. If I'm on 10, they're on 72. Like, I don't know what's happening there, but it sounds really fun. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we both just share like I hate I just feel like it's already so mentally draining and I hate hate like there's a certain vibe that can be in a room that like makes you feel just like completely like life sucked out of you. And I always feel like it's best to just like have fun and like hear each other. And it's like I think we like both share that ethic like it's never that deep.
6:28Justin Tranter:Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's just a fucking song. Because some people get hung up on the details. and really kill the vibe of the room. You know what I'm saying? I couldn't agree more. Like ruining the vibe to obsess over the third line in the second verse. Yes. Like we can obsess over that. Yeah, let's gloss over it. It's another day. Let's gloss over it. It can be handled another day, another year. Exactly. I have a question for you specifically because you started writing with strangers so young. That's the weirdest part about our job is that we walk into rooms with strangers, complete strangers.
7:00Justin Tranter:and you're like so nice to meet you write a song yeah this is my childhood and this is the breakup I just went through yeah so how does it can you like I'm just curious because I started this session circuit much later in life because I was in a band and we wrote our own songs alone which was a mistake by the way we should have collaborated it would have been better for the songs for real but I didn't start like the like session circuit until I was like my early 30s When did you start the session circuit? Oh, my God. Probably 12 years old. I mean, that is fucked. Yeah. How does it feel to be 12 and, like, walk into a room with a bunch of 40-year-olds and they're like, write a song, 12-year-olds?
7:43I was just like, okay.
7:45Justin Tranter:I mean, work. I was just like, watch me. and like the thing is I don't know I feel like that's kind of what is so like special and sacred about music and any forms of art is it like it allows you to kind of have this weird safe space crutch to like when you're like pouring out your soul about those things it kind of doesn't feel like you are it like allows you to have this crutch of safety where you can talk about these things objectively like I never feel close to things while I'm discussing it for a song with people so like with strangers and stuff I don't know I'd never feel that like like intimidation of vulnerability or unfamiliarity with the people in the room because it's just like we're able to look at it as an objective art piece yeah you know what I'm saying so even when you were like young and it would be about parts of your life the second you start talking about it as a song?
8:42Well, I wrote very differently when I was young. I would just like, it's so funny because I feel like you, you get better and you like figure out what it is now, which is just like, just like speaking gibberish and then like, you know, whatever, coming up with ideas. But I was just a kid and I was insecure. And you know, when you're a kid, you just care about being good and looking cool.
9:05Justin Tranter:Right. And so I would just like tuck in the corner and basically like write a song and there were writers in a room. Yeah. And that was a lot of my songs when I was younger. And then I'd just be like, guys, what about this? And then they'd be like, maybe change that word to this. Cool. Now I have like 25 % of this.
9:28Yeah. Do you like where you are now,
9:32Justin Tranter:where it's more collaborative in the room? Yeah, it's so fun. Because it should be fun, you know? Like we're allowed this crazy opportunity to have this job that's so fun. Yeah. Why not have fun with it? I feel like that would be such a disservice to this job. Collaboration is kind of the most fun thing in the world. It's very fun. As long as everyone else is having fun. Yeah. Certain people who take it too seriously kind of ruin the vibe. Yeah, that's my pet peeve. Yeah, it is just like, guys, it's a fucking song. It's literally let it go. We're having poetry at each other. No, literally. And sometimes it's over something so useless, like one word or one syllable, and I'm just like, vibes.
10:12Like, you gotta keep it moving because now the vibe is ruined for the rest of the time. Now you can't write the bridge, you can't write the chorus.
10:17Justin Tranter:And now I don't know if I trust your taste because you just killed the vibe. You just killed the vibe. I don't know if I even actually get out. Yeah. With both of you who, you see a little bit of it here, but as someone who's seen them in the studio, the energy level is so high, as I mentioned before. Who, in your collaboration, who, like, reigns it in and goes, okay, it's time to finish the song. Or does that never happen? I'm surprised we finished a lot of these songs. Me too, actually. I don't know. I don't know. I think... A deadline? I don't think we've ever said that to each other. The deadline of getting it out?
10:52Because to be fair, I think we both like going into... It's fun for us.
10:57Justin Tranter:Yeah. You know? I think we hyper-fixate on things. Yeah. Okay, if we had to say who's the most chaotic in the session? I still don't know. It's equal? Like, I feel like we're different types of chaos. Different types of chaos. I turn into, like, I feel like this seven-year-old just, like, running around the room and, like, dancing. Like, you kind of, like, start getting lost in your own head. Yeah, I'm there for it. Oh, Aaron's doing full choreography through the entire session. Yeah, 100%. I'm heartwheeling into the session. I'm just, like, running laps. Heartwheeling out of the session. I feel like I'm just, like, running laps around the table.
11:34It's like running laps and then every now and then it's like her face by my face. Like, and I'm scared. I'm shocked. I have videos of that happening. Exactly. Yeah, she's putting me on the news when she does it. Yeah. I like just run around and then I'm like, wait, actually that should be doubled and we should take the bass and blah, blah, blah. And then you're just like, okay. Okay. Okay.
11:55Justin Tranter:No, I mean, there were moments where I would be outside of the room in the kitchen hearing you guys write. And I'm like, I don't know how they're ever going to get a song. And we wrote like three that day. And we wrote an album. And we did like three that day. Yeah. I mean, that's. Yeah. I don't even know. What's also kind of amazing, though, is the album, which I love, and Morgan, who created this podcast with me, is like a deep fucking fan, like listens to it endlessly. Aww. It doesn't sound chaotic. No, it's very serious. It's incredibly serious. Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely think it sounds chaotic.
12:32I love how you say that. and then Fade is like, ba-da-ba-ba-da-ba-fade. Yeah. There are some chaotic moments. It's the most chaotic song of all time. Yeah, but it feels like,
12:40Justin Tranter:it all feels intentional and controlled and it's very good. Yeah. We reeled it in. We made sure that all of those crazy moments that we had ended up being something that we could use. Yeah. Exactly. On Child Star, the album that we're talking about, what is the song that you feel like is the most like you two together? Obviously, I know you wrote many songs together for me. I would say Fade for sure. You'd say Fade? Easily, yeah. Yeah, I'd say Fade too. Or runner-up behavioral problems. Okay, yeah, behavioral problems because he brought behavioral problems to me. But Fade was like, when you listen to Fade, that is definitely both of our minds.
13:24Yeah, that's true. You are easily hearing both of our minds. That's not like a Grace song. That's like, we definitely composed that together. Cool. Yeah.
13:34Justin Tranter:Love that. Did you do that one at Facet? Yeah, cool. Yeah. But yeah, behavioral problems, you kind of came up with the whole concept of. You were like, Child Star needs to have a tantrum. Because we were kind of in the middle of tantruming, both of us. Yeah, and I pushed back and I didn't want to do that because I can't remember because I've like done Rocky songs in the past. Like something about it just wasn't like clicking with me. and then like yeah you like really forced that until we wrote behavior until we wrote something and then it wasn't good and we scrapped that because it just like was not coming out and then you wrote the blomp blomp blomp blomp and then we were like oh what if we recycle that old idea and put it on top of the new bass thing and then we started singing it and we were like oh shit it actually works yeah that's why like like collaboration that's more than one day more than just a couple sessions is so important because like I think that you can hear albums where every song the pop star was in with a different group of people or every song was sent to the pop star by a different group of people and moments like this would never happen if you guys only did one or two days together.
14:45Justin Tranter:Where you can actually like, okay, we're, it's not like, okay, we're going to do every single second together, but we're like, we're going to go in deep so you can find those moments where you can go back and refine or completely changed to a whole new idea. Totally. And things that you say the first day become very apparent. We need to write that the third day. Now, when you said Child Star needed a tantrum, did you have the name? Did you know the album was going to be called Child Star early on? At that point, I think we knew Child Star. She came in with such a clear vision of what it was going to be that it made the game plan of what we were going to do very clear from the very beginning.
15:25It was like she knew that it was Child Star and it was this and it was these concepts and this concept and we need to cover this and we need to cover this. And I said, okay, what do we have? And you're like, pretty much nothing. Yeah, it wasn't written at all, but I had it completely in my mind. But that's amazing. Like it has to be this, it has to be this, and it has to be this. And I'm like, great, so what are we basing it off of? Can you play me some stuff? Nothing at all. nothing at all yeah we're starting with nothing yeah
15:57Justin Tranter:what is the song that the two of you worked on on child star that you think was like the hardest I'm gonna start with with you like was there a song that was like emotionally hard to tackle or even like logistically the hardest to pull off kind of a question for both of you like what was like or did it all just go easy breezy that's a fine answer too I don't know I mean I definitely got emotional I mean it's you know what I mean like I was pretty emotional he was crying the whole time I was crying the whole time no um I don't know it's I think I've been doing this so long that I am so like I am so organized in my brain of like sort of like switching into writing mode so it's very hard for me I think to be emotionally challenged in a room wow because like my brain is just so organized in that way at this point but I mean I definitely cried like later and felt emotional things later when I was just like to myself and I I mean obviously brand new was always closest to me uh like concept wise do you want to want to say why you don't have to but well that was something that we also discussed a lot before ever writing the song because I just always reiterated to you how important the nuance of that topic was to me which is sort of the experience of like early sexualization as a girl no matter situation no matter nothing it didn't have to do with child start doesn't have to do with anything and I wanted to talk about that almost objectively but also emotionally close where it doesn't have to teeter between either black and white of overcoming this and feeling triumphant or having it be too shriveled down and small because it's like well these things make me feel strong and empowered but I also but like I'm questioning why I'm doing why do I have to do that to feel you know yeah sexual or woman or any of these things or you know there's just so many nuance and I and I really wanted to nail that confusing experience and then also there was a moment when we were writing at the second verse where it was just a full-blown poem in my notes app that we started singing out stanza from stanza i also have this on my voice notes i still have it where we all go like wow that's it i got goosebumps and literally fell to my knee it was like a godly experience because we pull it up and literally literally not one word changed it perfectly worked like even like rhyming for the second verse and i just read it out loud and it worked perfectly and it was like yeah it was a very beautiful moment that there is no cooler feeling than when you're writing a song and like yeah you killed it it just like possesses you and you just literally sing down the song yeah you know what i'm saying like and you're just like what i didn't write that that's that's religion to me.
19:04That's religion to me too. It's actually a very spiritual experience. You're like, Oh, this is what happened. It literally feels like something comes to you. The divine comes to them. All right. Well, no, but no, it is. You're plucking it out of thin air. Welcome to Unfamous. We all have God complexes. It's crazy.
19:19Justin Tranter:People ask me a lot, like, cause I used to be in a band for many years and it's like, do you miss performing? And I'm like, no, because the feeling that you get when you know that you just made something special with your co-writers is the same high for me that you get on stage. Like when you know you kill it in a performance and the audience is going crazy, is the same feeling, even though when you're writing a song, there is no audience there. It's not about thank God for audiences. We love you. Keep buying tickets. Keep listening to music. But it really is like - You're like, I don't need an audience speaking into a microphone.
19:53Justin Tranter:But when you're - Slay. When you're writing a song, that feeling of when you know something is special is the same high as 10 ,000 people cheering for you. Totally agree. It's the coolest thing in the world. It's a very cool feeling. Question for both of you. It'll be different answers because you haven't known each other your whole lives. We haven't. What is it for you, Erin? What is a gig or a phase? because your whole life is your gig. You are your gig. So for you, it's not really a gig, but maybe, maybe there was a gig. Like a phase that in some ways you wish you could erase, but now like, you know, like it was a huge stepping stone and you needed it to become the artist that you are today.
20:49Justin Tranter:And you can leave names out if you want or drop them. I don't fucking care. Listen, I was once hired to play acoustic guitar in a hotel room for two lovers. For two lovers? Really? I was. I was. And I didn't know what was happening. I didn't know what was happening at the time. Oh my God. Wait, how do you hear about this gig? Okay, so this guy, he calls me, who I worked with before. He said, hey, listen, I got X amount of dollars for you. You got to show up to the Hudson Terrace at, you know, at 9 p.m. And I thought the Hudson Terrace was like a music venue. You thought it was like city winery.
21:35That sounds like a music venue. Okay, well, it's a hotel as well.
21:40Justin Tranter:And so you're like, okay, the lobby, fine. Yeah, the lobby. Right, so I'm like the lobby. And the guy was like, oh, you're the guy, right? Like when I got there, you're the guy. And I was like, me? I'm not the guy, you know? So I went, I went. Wait, I need to pause for one second. What fashion era are you in? Do you look like this? Vests. Okay, how long is the hair? The hair is shoulder length. Are we in handlebar mustache? No. Clean face. So you look a little bit more normal. Yes. Okay. 100%. I'm like just a singer-songwriter on the street with an acoustic guitar. With a vest. Okay. With a vest.
22:18That was a thing. Yeah. It was a long time ago. Okay. So, during the vest era, which I had a lot of great vests, let's be honest. So, I go to this place. I show up. I got my stuff, my gear, and my acoustic guitar. The guy goes, oh, you're the guy at the front desk. I go, is this a hotel? Like, what's going on? Like, I'm assuming I'm going up into a room. Go up to the room. Rose petals everywhere. Oh, my God. No lube Let me just tell you something Going back to your original question That really launched my career You know what I mean? Yeah You know what I'm saying? So wait Like I knew love songs were for me That was like the turn Yeah So you How long was your set?
23:08Well It was an hour But then It was an hour But then How long did they go? I was offered more money to stay Which I took
23:18Justin Tranter:Wow Yeah Did you stay to have sex with them or say to keep playing? No, they had sex. While you played? Yes. Wow. The best moment was, thank you. This is the greatest gig story I've ever heard in my life. Thank you. And it really, I just knew that I was meant for music. Wait, our producer Morgan has a follow-up question. Yeah, I have a very important question. Yeah. Was the most of the time you were talking about hair? Yes, I did have streaks in my hair, yes. Yes, I did. But not the time where they used to pull the things out of the cap. No, that was long before that. These were just highlights.
Read the full transcript
23:56Justin Tranter:So you have highlights in your hair. Highlights, yes. In your shoulder length hair. You're wearing a vest. And you're in a hotel. Probably some mysterious button-down shirt. Was this button-down shirt like vintage or was it from like structure? No, it was like Express. You know what I mean? To be clean. Express for men. I was on the job. Express for men. I was on the job. Yeah. You know what I mean? Okay, Grace. Keep it for fun. Grace, do you feel like you can contribute? I just have to say, I have such a picture in my mind. I know the detail really painted something. And I'm happy that was inspiring for you.
24:37It really did for me. I'm really happy that was inspiring for you. I wouldn't be the songwriter I was today if it wasn't for that night. Yeah, and you know what? Like, there's something to be said about just seeing it through. You know what I'm saying? You took the gig. You saw what was going on. You said, I'm here.
24:54Justin Tranter:I'm already here. I'm here. I'm so sorry. I have one last question. I'm so sorry to interrupt you, Grace. Did you play covers or all originals? Okay, good question. Thank you. Hardball stuff. And I like that. The set went long. The set went long and I did extra stuff. So it started with my original music. It started with originals. And then I ran out. Right. You know what I mean? Once they offered me more money, I was like, oh, we're going to have to do covers. So what were the covers? Like Blackbird. Yeah, like stuff like that. Britney Spears, Give Me More. No, I didn't know anything like that on acoustic guitar.
25:29So it was like, it was stuff that wasn't as sexy as it should be. But it was nice. Like Bridge Over Troubled Water. The Stars Metal Banner. I did like stuff like that. I did like, you know, I did like an Otis Redding song. I did a Marvin Gaye song, but I made it up. You know what I mean? and I didn't know it ahead of time. And I was like, ooh, I can do Let's Get It On. I was like, mm. And I was like, mm, really? And I just kind of made it up. Were they laughing or were they serious into it? They were having sex. So they didn't really care that much. So it was fine. But every now and then I would make eye contact with either of them.
26:03And it was something special. I felt connected to this day. Do you know who they are? Like, are you guys Facebook friends? I don't look so I'm gonna say no comment on that do you think they'll see this? imagine like babe that's us that's us that's us that's us
26:22Justin Tranter:yeah well they're probably divorced yeah honestly I don't think it's I think that's the grounds for a long lasting relationship yeah actually I think you're right it's either it's a memory to remember forever I was here for it either it's the greatest relationship of all time or they they they they fell apart murdered each other yeah that's what I'm saying murder suicide maybe something It could have. Either way. Or they're like amazingly progressive and just like living their wildest dreams. Yeah. I choose that one. But I don't know. I actually don't know. I love them. I love them. I love them.
26:55Justin Tranter:Yeah. That sounds like, that's the kind of love I'm looking for. That's the kind of love that I'm looking for. Done. We wrote a song. Done. Yeah, guys, should we write a song? I don't know. Grace, do you have a phase or an era? I mean, I don't think that anything could ever, ever, like even honestly I think that like I'm still processing what came from that couch right now I feel like Morgan this is a good lesson to learn that that question could be so juicy we need to move it to the end of the conversation because we have peaked we might it's all downhill from here in editing we might need you know that YouTube thing where it shows where people while we're watching.
27:41It's like most replayed. This is most engagement right here.
27:44Justin Tranter:We might need to move this to, it'll be the bumper at the start of the episode. And then people have to wait to the very end. This is the tease. Yeah, this is the tease. To get people into it. Very similar to your couple. It was mysterious.
28:02Justin Tranter:Yeah, you were the tease and then the main event. And they got into it. Yeah, exactly. History repeats itself. Okay, just because there's no way to survive I have such a great answer. Let's just fully switch gears. What's your favorite boy band song? Well, I mean. Right, and in our era, you could not admit. Yeah, your microphone has a ghost. I don't know, it's kind of going crazy, but I'm kind of into it. It's kind of like working. It's kind of like a fidget. It's like, hey. You know, it's like. It's very distracting. Okay, sorry. Go.
28:31You know, it definitely was NSYNC over Backstreet Boys. Ah. I just like the songs better.
28:37Justin Tranter:Which, like what? Because a lot of the NSYNC and Backstreet were both written by Max. Yeah, I think my favorite song was probably, I think the title is Gone, which is...
28:53Justin Tranter:Wait, I don't know who wrote Gone. Can someone Google who wrote Gone? I'm so wrong right now. Don't. Yeah, that one. What year were you born? I feel like such a baby right now. I was born in 2004. Oh, yeah, this is way past... Yeah, I know. This is classic rock. What's, this is classic rock to you. No, no, what were, what were songs that, what was the first like pop star that you were able to, not like one from the past that your parents loved and then you ended up loving. Yeah, like someone who was really prevalent for me. Yeah, who was your first? Rihanna, Katy Perry. Well, that's, you're like young, young.
29:26Yeah.
29:27Justin Tranter:That's crazy. Like Rihanna like really blew up when I was like 25. Yeah, well, you're old, old. Yeah, old, old. Just kidding. No, it's true, I'm 45. Yeah. No, yeah. Those were like the main, but I'm very happy with the team of pop stars that I grew up with. It was cunt. It was a cunt team. It was a cunt era. It was all, honestly, the best girls. Rihanna, Katy Perry, Gaga, Kesha, Nikki. Selena Gomez was at her fucking, she was like doing sex symbol, doing her thing. She was like a big, like gay awakening for me. I was like, oh, I definitely like girls too. I definitely like girls too. What was your big Selena moment?
30:06um like a memorable moment from her to me well that was like well that was a gay awakening okay so there's a specific thing that i'm thinking of right now and it was some like radio go on go on so like bob grace is just like sitting in her room like watching this and it was some like she did some like bollywood shit come and get it come and get it and she did I did this whole thing, and I was just like, yeah. Yeah.
30:33Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. This is amazing. This is beautiful. This is a masterpiece. I was, like, looking up. It felt like the TV started levitating. I started looking up at it. No, she is one of the most beautiful people ever formed. Yeah, seriously. Sometimes in sessions with her, I'm just like, fuck. Can I just have your face for just, like, two hours? Just to see what I could pull off with that face. Like, I could probably be president. High speed car chase. Start looting. Yeah, yeah. Come and Get It is a great fucking song. Yeah, that's a great song, too. It's Stargate and Esther Dean, Queen Esther Dean, who also wrote a lot of the Rihanna songs.
31:10Justin Tranter:She did Rude Boy. She did Rude Boy. She did What's My Name? She did What's My Name? She did What's My Name? She did... That's what you both... Can I just say what? Rude Boy is so good. You're like, yeah, the tambourine goes crazy. The tambourine and Rude Boy is unbelievable. When you think of Rude Boy, What you think of the tambourine? Everyone doesn't think of the tambourine in Rude Boy? What are we talking about here? That was literally the most insane thing. Are we making music or what are we doing? You're like, yeah, the tambourine goes crazy. Oh, it goes nuts. When is there even a tambourine in Rude Boy?
31:42It's just a good choice. It's tasteful. I just imagine like a... I have to listen to it. Oh, exactly. And you're like, oh, your head goes, what? And you're like, why does it do that? I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to have to listen to Rude Boy
31:56Justin Tranter:the second this is over to hear the tambourine. We have to re-listen to that song. I do not remember a tambourine in there at all. No, you're going to die. You're going to die. You're going to be like, it's the tambourine. Okay, I want to die. Her mentioning Rihanna, and somehow we got to Rude Boy, that both of our geek popped out. I'm listing Esther Dean's entire discography and you're mentioning tambourines. So we're both really cool.
32:22Justin Tranter:Okay, so every podcast we do a question of songs that ruined my life. Meaning that the song was like, you were young and the song was so fucking good that you're like, I have to make music and therefore my life is ruined forever. Yeah. Probably like a Hannah Montana soul. Yes. What's that one? If this, if you were a movie, then I'd be the right guy and you'd be the, I'd be like, I was just like. You're like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this.
32:59So true. So true.
33:01Justin Tranter:Aaron, was it Hannah Montana for you? It was not Hannah Montana for me. No, it wasn't. No, because he was an adult, and that would be terrifying. No, it wasn't. You know, something that really just absolutely flipped me on my head was the Boyz II Men cover of Yesterday. And that, like, did something for me on two levels. that kind of changed my perspective on what I could make. Right. Because I loved Yesterday by the Beatles. I loved it. I mean, of course. Of course. It's one of the best songs of all time, one of this. But then when I heard Boyz II Men do it, I was like, wait a second. You can just do songs any way you want?
33:45Yes, yes. Yeah? Yeah. I had a song like that too, actually. And I couldn't believe it. That literally changed everything for me. And I remember at this time I was just kind of looking at songs. I mean, songs have always been easy for me to write. It's easier to just write, honestly, verse, free chorus, chorus. Just like a little cutesy pop song. It's like whatever. And I remember I was probably 14. I heard Bad Religion by Frank Ocean. Oh, da-be-da-ba-da. And I was just like, notes can be surprising.
34:18Justin Tranter:I mean, in my band days I had four different records. I was signed and dropped four different times. So the label experiences are always really fun. Fulfilling, rewarding, equal.
34:39Justin Tranter:I feel like my version of what success is changes every day. Do you guys remember what your idea of success was to you when you were young? And how has it changed now? Oh, wow. I think for me personally, always my barometer for success was writing the biggest song in the world. But it's changed so drastically that now I just want a song to live after I'm long gone. and for people to be listening to for years after I'm not here. I think that for me is actually the parameter of success, which was a weight lifted off my shoulders too because I don't have to worry about it really. You're like, I just hope.
35:39Justin Tranter:It's beyond me. Listen, it's I will be dead. If it happens in 200 years, it happens in 200 years. Everybody's going to be fine with that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's kind of like the fascination with like relics. Yeah. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Like I just, I'd rather be, I'd rather have that as my barometer of success. That something that was so ahead of its time, that was so insane and is big then and means something to future people than like me enjoy it right in this moment and get to like, you know, drink a shitty champagne. Yeah. Post about it a lot. Yeah, exactly. Like, oh, that makes me hate it.
36:19Then now I hate it. Yeah. So it's like, so that's the, I think that's how it's changed for me. Yeah. I think, like, you can tell pretty easily from my brand or looking at what I do that I'm still heavily figuring it out, kind of all over the place, you know? Like, it's, like, heavily, heavily fluctuating and changing. at all times because you have so many options you know what I'm saying like you can do what you're saying or like more ego based things which there are different faucets of pressure on that too because like obviously commercial success is like attractive to a lot of people and attachments around you and stuff like that and you know I feel like a lot of us are in this weird position of kind of choosing and at the end of the day you're a human being i'd be lying if i don't have an ego obviously it's in front of a camera like it'd be crazy to say that so yeah i don't know yeah
37:22Justin Tranter:i mean i think i don't know is a really honest answer though yeah it's that's really that that's it yeah yeah yeah we do it for something else too i think i think yeah you know it's like i think you end up really writing for that day that you have writing the song oh i write to stay alive yeah exactly it's it's for that day it's for it's for that like whatever happens is like up to all the other people yeah yeah that's pretty much you know what i mean well the industry has changed so drastically that like since gatekeepers don't really exist anymore there is no way to control the success it's just gonna what's gonna happen yeah you can only cultivate you can only you can cultivate and like like push to you know what i'm saying carber uh momentum i feel like but you can't make something out of nothing you can't when you can't the days of like okay some massive label has decided this is the best song they have right now they're going to pour a gajillion dollars into it it doesn't mean it's going to be a hit anymore still so so basing your success basing your idea of success on that huge hit is crazier to do than it ever was because there's no way to guarantee what a hit is oh yeah that's a fast track to depression it's and now so many songs that are hits are actually like five years old if not 35 years old yeah that inspires me that's what i'm saying that keeps me going i love hearing things like a hit and they're like did you know that was really and I was like really yeah so all of my songs are going to be smashes in 27 years everything is a number one just give it time just give it time yeah um what would you for you what would you wish you could tell yourself when you were on stage at America's Got Talent and for you what do you wish you could tell yourself when you were like in your dad's studio Aaron's dad is one of the most legendary sax players of all time and Aaron grew up in a studio.
39:28Justin Tranter:For Aaron what do you and all these big producers big artists are coming into the studio when you're younger and trying to hustle what is things at this point in your life that you could have told yourself when you were younger?
39:44Justin Tranter:Good question. Very good question. It's Morgan's question. I have to give her credit. That's a good question. I don't know. I probably would, if I traveled back in time, first thing my, like, 14-year-old self would be like, who the fuck is that? Because of my face. Can you explain that a little bit more? Well, look at my face. So, like, you know, like, I was shaving every day, you know, at 16. And so like, a chin? The first thing I would say. I haven't seen your chin in years. I haven't seen this. Let me touch it. So the first thing I would say is that you don't have to shave.
40:38They like you without shaving. Okay, done, Grace. That's it. Were you like growing a beard at 16? I had like a 5 o 'clock shadow at like 16, 17 years old. And it was awful. You do have a good foundation. I feel like someone like you has to have the foundation forever. Because like some people can't. You just, you don't got the building blocks. It was awful. I hated it. I wanted to rip my face off. I was like, I wish I never grew hair on my face. Really? Because I feel like it would be an insecurity to like not be able to grow. I did it. I shredded my eyebrows. I tried to wax stuff. Like I swear to God.
41:15You shredded your eyebrows? Are you kidding me? Who do you think I am? That's crazy. Of course I did. Wow, the character development is crazy. Wow. Look at you now. Oh, and I would just go back. I'd say, hey, 14-year-old Erin. The hair is fierce. You don't have to worry about any of that shit anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They like you for your weird facial hair. Yeah. And I'd say, that's amazing. It'll be your calling card one day. I'd be like, get out of my house. My mom is coming down. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'd say something like that.
41:44Justin Tranter:Yeah. I think it's great advice for everyone. Everyone watching. Everyone watching, don't shave and try to make money. Yeah. Monetize. I love it. I love it. Okay, so to end these, we always play a little game that Morgan and I invented, which is called gagged or dragged. So it's like rapid questions, right? Rapid fire questions. So I'll name something. You see it either gag, you love it. Okay. Dragged, it's terrible. Just actually gag. Or you can just gag because you love it so much. Oh. Gags, drags, or we have learned while playing the game that there has to be a third option, which is just meh.
42:22Justin Tranter:Like you don't really feel strong about it either way. Okay. Okay. Okay, are you ready? Ukulele's making a comeback. Drag. You're over it. Over it. Yeah, I agree, drag. What is this? It's been there. That's like saying like fedoras and mustaches are coming back. Okay, relax. Let's say half of that. Half of it. Half of it. Half of that. That's like stupid beanies and long beards and long hair is coming back. Who the fuck is doing that? Also, the name Aaron is pretty stupid. Can we talk about that? Hold on. Let me just say that during the vest period, there was a fedora period and a micro. There was a micro time during that.
43:05But it was of the time. I mean, I got famous with the ukulele. Right. Something served their purpose. Okay, tip or tap. Something served their purpose. We both say drag. Okay. Okay, drag.
43:16Justin Tranter:singing in a fake accent gag are you kidding me I wish more people did it I love when a bitch just starts going do you know what and I'm just like yep sometimes when people are singing they say can't I say can you say can't or when Gaga just started speaking French and German in her songs it's amazing I don't know what you're saying it's like a spiritual speaking tongues yes correct playing airbase gag I think it's a gag Aaron could you could you demonstrate airbase for us how stinky is the part it is foul it's disgusting it's disgusting it's the deepest pocket anyone's ever Is it like, yeah, yeah.
44:13Is it like, no. Yeah, it's like, no, don't, don't. It's like, get away. It's like, get out of my house. Yep. Ooh. Yeah. Is it like, okay. Yeah, okay. All right, good job. Okay.
44:25Justin Tranter:Okay, just wondering. Okay, just wondering how to get that out of the way. People like genres that are clearly trying too hard when someone's like sad core bedroom pop or post-traumatic stress pop. Like, how do you feel? These new genres that are popping up all over, how do you feel about it? gag or drag or meh? I think it's a little gaggy. It's gaggy. It's just like, you know what? Hop in the tent, get your bag. Like, I would do it too. I don't know. I guess I wouldn't. I think you just make... I was like, well, you know that you're an artist. You could. I'm just saying, you know, I'm a believer if something's on the table, might as well grab it.
45:01Yeah. Also, if you have the ability to create your own genre, even if you just made it up five seconds ago, that's pretty sick. I think that's cool too.
45:09Justin Tranter:Love it. Okay, last gag or drag or meh. Music industry people, executives specifically, who say things like, we love authentic storytelling.
45:22I think you already know the answer.
45:25Justin Tranter:Well, but I want to hear it. Drag. Yeah. Drag. Drag talking to anyone about music ever that isn't creating the music with me, honestly. Basically, if anyone makes any comment that I didn't make it with, I'm just like... Okay. So where's your song? Yeah, exactly. Do it better. Yeah, did you want to write me my smash hit? Thank you so much. You know, this is going to be a number one in 27 years. Good callback. Good callback. That was really nice. Thanks, Colin. Okay. To end it with a little bit of advice for anyone who's watching or listening who is trying to collaborate in any medium, in any genre, What is one piece of advice that you would give to people about collaboration?
46:18Don't be a dick. Great. You know? Just be nice to other people. Treat other people the way you want to be treated. Totally. Also, oh my gosh, Brad with his don't be a dick.
46:33Justin Tranter:Oh my God. Don't be a dick. Look at that. Zoom in. Hold it up. Hold it up. Don't be a dick. Guys, so are we going to monetize this hat? We should be paid for this. You know what? Don't cut this out. Honestly, I don't like it. Grace isn't getting paid for this, and she has learned that lesson. I don't hold products I'm not getting paid for. Yeah. Yeah. I was in a session with an artist last week and suggested a lyric that involved a brand name, and she was like, are they going to pay me? And I was like, fair. Honestly, that's gag. That's gaggy. If someone genuinely said that, like, full-blown serious face, I'm like, honestly, I'm trying to be like you.
47:11Yeah.
47:12Justin Tranter:Well, maybe we should write it and then have your manager call that. Wait, yeah. Also, like, music video. Like, if you did that, you could make the music video and just, like, fucking pump that shit with all of, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. She actually missed a good opportunity. She did. Drag. Drag. No, don't be a dick is a really good one. Also, this is a small industry, and it's so likely you'll run into that. Same person again if you're like, you know, being a cunt. Yeah. So, yeah, I would agree. I'd say the same. I love it. Amazing. You guys were way too much fun. Thank you for having us.
47:47Justin Tranter:And amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Ladies and gentlemen, Erin and Grace.
47:54Justin Tranter:Mwah. Mwah.
48:01Justin Tranter:Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please, follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations. And also, pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday.
From the publisher
Grace VanderWaal and Eren Cannata make work that feels raw but intentional. More importantly, they know how to keep the energy in the room alive long enough for the right idea to land.
In this episode of Unfamous, they talk about building Childstar and the creative rhythm Grace and Eren found together. Grace reflects on starting sessions as young as 12 and how writing gave her a way to say things in her own personal way, and how that evolved into a more instinctive, collaborative process with Eren now.
They get into protecting the vibe, letting ideas evolve, and trusting the moments that arrive on their own. It is about collaboration, instinct, and making something honest without forcing it.
Credits:
Unfamous is hosted by Justin Tranter
Created by Justin Tranter & Morgan T. Stuart
Produced by Justin Tranter & Morgan T. Stuart
Written & Researched by Morgan T. Stuart
Director: Morgan T. Stuart
Co-Director + Cinematographer: Olivia McCrary
Audio Engineer: Mike Sabri
Camera Assistant: Sherrae Rucker
Special thanks to Mark Beavan, Jimmy Knehans, Brad Cohen, Jamie Sward, Lauryn Caldwell, Alana Aquino, Alexandra Baker and Uriah Tejada. Shout out to Chloe Pappas and Leslie on Patreon.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
