Inside Pop Songwriting: Hits, Failure, Fear + What Actually Makes a Song Work

21:38Also, like it wasn't like that because it was pre-TikTok.

21:40Justin Tranter:It was pre-TikTok. And also it was like, it was really artists didn't have like these assigned camps, which I think the assigned camps in some ways are better for music. But then when you're a professional songwriter, I mean, it used to be when I first started that if you didn't even need a hit yet. If you had buzz in the industry, every A-list pop star was going to do at least a day with everyone. And so it was on the schedule. You just showed up, blah, blah, blah. And like, I'll just be fucking blunt. I was really fucking good at getting the single because I listened to artists. So I just like, I just need two days with every pop star.

22:19And I'm going to get the single. By the way, I've never seen someone do it like you. You are the best at that. That was very sweet.

22:25Justin Tranter:Thank you. Like you're an incredible songwriter, but you also know how to get in an artist's mind, but not in a gross way. Like, you know, a way that makes everyone excited. You're like, this is the single. Yeah. Well, thank you. So you're welcome. And it's, you know, I think a lot, you know, it's when I started doing it, there weren't many other homosexuals, which is a problem. I'm not patting myself on the back. It's bad that there weren't more gay people. but because so many people were just used to like old straight dudes in their sessions I was so good at just like I'm gonna listen to you yeah and I relate I probably haven't like made that many mistakes dating since I was in my 20s but trust me I did I dated the worst people you can find we like connected anyway but now it's just like it's a desperate time it's a desperate time yeah And it is like, we didn't used to have to text the artist directly.

23:19Justin Tranter:We didn't have to use to like beg and plead. It was just like in our calendar. It was fabulous. And then our publisher spoke and then I'd be like, bye. Yeah. But I do think like I'm making an effort now and I'm in like, you know, I'm in a privileged place to be able to do this, but I just work with people I like. Yeah. And that also I think makes the best music. Yeah. Totally. You know, someone's buzzy or whatever. And I work with them and like, we just don't have chemistry. I'm like, I'm not going to force my way in. Yeah. I'm brand, I've just learned that like, I'm not right for everybody. Same.

23:54Justin Tranter:And I just don't have, the older I get, I don't have the energy to be right for everybody. And it's, that's, that has to be okay. Yeah. I used to be obsessed with people liking me. Yeah. And then I was like, wait, I have to like you too. Totally. Do you know what I mean? Totally. I was like, this is a two way street. I discovered that in dating recently. Do they like me? Do they like me? Do they like me? Do I like you? Yeah. Do I think you're funny? I'm hilarious. What's happening here? Why is that the first thing that we're thinking of? No, I know. Genuinely. My self-esteem is so low that I would text my team after a session, which I still do.

24:30And I'm like, so did they like me or like, what's the vibe? You're so funny. Oh my God, still. Wow. And then they're like, yeah, it was chill. And I'm like, what do you mean it was chill? What does chill mean? Yeah. Like, do they want me back? I get if they don't. I wouldn't want me back. It's fine. You're insane. That's how I operate. You're really insane. Constantly. Okay. You're really insane.

24:54Justin Tranter:Since you're both such unbelievable musicians in different ways, let's get geeky for a second. Ooh. And I would love both of you to walk me through different songs. Sasha, I'm going to pick yours because it's one of my favorite songs. Okay. I need you to walk me through heroin nicotine. let's talk about it Camila Cabello's song Unreal one of my favorite pop songs of the last 20 years which I genuinely like had no idea you were a part of until very recently and I have personally like referenced that song in so many sessions of mine for my artist project and then I think Jack Rashaun told me like you know she did that song and I was like get the fuck out of here how fucking course she did bitch like anyways thank you both of you Can you geek out for us?

25:42Justin Tranter:And so anyone who doesn't know, not only is Sasha a great fucking songwriter, singer, artist, but also crazy piano player. So lots of songwriters are just unbelievable at melody and lyric, but don't have, and that's not shade, it's just we're all different. Don't have like a full grasp of like everything that's happening in the track. But like Sasha's like a musician's musician. So get as geeky as you want. Our Unfamous fan base is small, but they are geeks like me. So geek out. Hi, I'm Justin Tranter, pop songwriter and host of the Unfamous podcast. I've been lucky enough to work with such legendary artists like Gwen Stefani, Imagine Dragons and Britney Spears, which is why I know how important it is for fans to have early access to concert tickets.

26:26Justin Tranter:We want to know about anything that can get us into that show earlier, which is why you should know about Cash App's concert presales. If you weren't up to speed already, Cash App is way more than just a safe way to send and receive money. With the Cash App card, you unlock tons of perks without all the hidden fees. Enjoy benefits like exclusive early access to nationwide concert pre-sales, Kendrick Lamar and Sabrina Carpenter, to name a couple recent examples, plus discounts on everyday purchases on popular brands you're probably already spending money on. Add your card to your digital wallet to make your money moves easier.

26:57Justin Tranter:Cash App also adds security to your money by declining suspicious card transactions and sending you a notification to make sure the payment is really you. If your card is ever lost or stolen, you can lock it with just one tap right in the app. Spend with confidence with the Cash App card today. Download Cash App today and make your money work for you. Visit our link in bio. Cash App is a financial service platform, not a bank. Baking services provided by Cash App's bank partners. Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank member FDIC. Cash App Visa debit flex cards issued by Sutton Bank member FDIC and the BankCorp Bank NA.

27:26Justin Tranter:Pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton prepaid card, Sutton debit flex card, and BankCorp debit flex card. See terms and conditions for the Sutton prepaid card, Sutton debit flex card, and BankCorp debit flex card. Cash App, green features, savings, direct deposits, roundups, overdraft coverage, and discounts provided by Cash App, a Blanc, Inc. brand. Visit cash.app slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self.

27:53Justin Tranter:What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. Okay, well, this was like 100 years ago, so I'm going to have to recall the memory. It's going to be a big geek out. Yeah. but no like I first of all just want to say I love Camila she's iconic she's so talented incredible songwriter underrated melodies are crazy underrated songwriter and I was actually just with her recently we were talking about that time and I was like we were babies like we were both like 19 20 maybe 21 something like that that's insane but like because I was like hey just so you know, like I was so nervous. Wow. And she was like, I was so nervous.

28:34And I was like, why didn't we talk about it? But it was also like such a pure time because we didn't know.

28:42Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. We were just having fun. We were young. Yeah. I had never had a big song that anyone knew. And anyway, we're in the studio with Frank Dukes. It was me, her, Noonie Bao, who's an incredible songwriter. And Frank just pulled up this track. Yeah. And you know, you hear a million tracks and I'm also not the type of songwriter who's like, this is the one, like, you know what I mean? And then we write a song and you're like, this is the shit. Like, I'm just very like, okay, this is cool. I love this. This gives me a feeling. And then Camila got in the booth and sang some crazy melodies. She sang that whole pre down.

29:16Wow. Yeah. And that's when I was like, okay, I kind of got chills. Yeah. And then she came out and we just kind of figured the pieces out and put the words to it. And then we listened back and I was still like, I think this is good.

29:30Justin Tranter:Yeah. I wasn't like. Did anyone second guess changing the pronunciation of heroin so it would rhyme? I didn't even hear it. No. I didn't even know until someone pointed it out to me. I was like, heroin. I was like, oh, that's not a word. Oh, well. I love it. Thank God. But you know what? Today I would be like, this has to change. I think about that all the time of like when I first started writing with and for other people and it was just like fucking go and it wasn't overthinking you I would never overthink something unless we listened back and it wasn't working agree and then I would go oh yeah I'll do the math here and oh yeah because the chorus is singing too many of the same notes of this and we're starting the same part of the phrase and all the things that we all know I would have I never did it back then me neither unless and so I'm trying to get back to that feeling of just writing from the fucking gut.

30:26Yeah.

30:27Justin Tranter:And then edit it afterwards if it doesn't sound amazing. Which is hard. No one thought you just, heroin, nicotine happened. I was like, that sounds sick. I don't know. I love it. I love it. Cool. It's also crazy too, because it's so high. So high. So high. In her register. It just like. And here, it's also crazy. No bullshit. It is one of my favorite songs the last 20 years. All I can hear is Heroin Nicotine. I can't even tell you what the name of the song is. Right now. Never be the same. Never be the same. Thank you. But that's what shows like those moments that are mistakes. That's what I've called that song for what is it?

31:09Justin Tranter:12 years now? I have called that song Heroin Nicotine for 12 years. Because that's the best part because it wasn't perfect. Yeah. And that's what reverse engineering knowing too much Totally. is so hard. Yeah. And I'm also trying to do that. Yeah. Amelia, do you have a song you want to walk us through? I think yes, but just to add on to that, like. Just to gush over social for a second. There are so many hit songs that would have never been made if I was in the room for shit like this. I think about how many songs I would have ruined. There are so many amazing songs that I would have ruined just by being there and being like, that doesn't make sense.

31:46Hey, you guys, what are we talking about? And I would have literally ruined it and it would have been a horrible song. and I like think about that sometimes. Yeah. Where, yeah, like let's just not, it doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to make sense. I think we're in a time where people like crave that now because everything is so perfect. Let's talk about it. Suno, everything sounds so crispy and AI is like making everything sound so glossy and scary and like the shit that people connect with is the real like dirty, fucked up, raw stuff. Let's get back to that. Let's get back to not overthinking.

32:20Anyways, I'll talk about a song, See Through. my song that saved me from being broke again and getting my second record deal. I remember being in the studio with Pink Slip and Jackson Lee Morgan, both so talented. I love them. And we kind of just started messing around on some sounds. These chords are really cool. And I did this like really riffy hook thing. And I...

32:48Justin Tranter:You want to sing it for us really quick? Yeah. C. Just riffing over and over again. That was also amazing. I was actively trying to... I was hoping you were actually going to just do it. I don't want you to flex. I was really hoping. I was going to beat you into that. No, that's not what this is about. I remember writing a very complicated riff melody, and the fear about the song was like, it's too complicated. No one's going to be able to sing it back to you. No one is going to be able to sing back this melody after hearing it for the first time. The reason why that song started to take off is because of the complicated riff melody that became a singing trend on TikTok.

33:23Like people wanted to sing the riff because of how complicated it was. How funny is that? Hello, because you guys thought it was too complicated is the reason why. And I was on this headline tour two years ago. And I was running out of money. I was independent. I had been dropped from the label that I was signed to previously. and I spent like 90 grand on this tour funding it myself because I knew that I needed to go on this tour. And my business manager highly advised me against making that decision because he was like, you know, two months after you get back from this tour, you're going to have to move home.

34:02And I was like, I have to do this tour, John. I have to do this tour. While I'm on the tour that is like making me broke, the music starts to see through. The riff challenge starts to happen. And literally the day I get back from tour, it's like the whole label run around meeting thing again and it like literally saved my life just like trusting trusting in like my vocal instincts on the microphone and doing a riff because I love singing like trusting in that and it didn't become like an insane hit song but it got me my second record deal and like got me to where I am now see I would have ruined that this

34:38Justin Tranter:process you would have been like no no you're actually complicated you have to stop I was like everyone sings it at the shows with me and it's lit as fuck. And like, it's one of my favorite songs to perform ever. And I'm yeah. Okay. So walk me through. Morgan has this question planned later, but you brought it up. So we'll do it now. You get dropped, which welcome to the club. You've been, you've been to the club. We've all been dropped. Now I've been dropped enough for everyone in the studio today. AKA my living room. But so you get dropped. Yeah. How does it feel? Oh my God. Worst feeling ever.

35:16It's a great question. It all comes back to the Vegas camp. Because I had went to the Warner Chapel Vegas camp for the first time. After like things with capital were slowing down. We knew that things like we weren't on the same page about a lot of stuff. And I go to this Warner Chapel camp. Get really inspired. Work with a lot of great people. I come back. My manager's like, let's go to dinner and talk about the camp. I'm like, I feel really inspired. Like, let's go get dinner. He takes me to my favorite restaurant, and he sits me down, and he's like, by the way, Capital doesn't want to be a part of anything anymore.

35:54And I was like, like, half of this, half of my favorite pasta is, like, hanging out of my mouth while he's telling me this.

36:02Justin Tranter:What's the restaurant? And Wovo, I love Wovo so much. Wovo pasta, you guys. It's so good. We're sitting at the bar. Yeah, this pasta's hanging out of my mouth. I start having a mental breakdown at my favorite restaurant, I mean, Brian, my manager, is so chill. Like, he was just like, he saw it all. Like, he's been doing this shit for so long. He's managed, like, Brockhampton and has been on Tyler, the Creator's team. Like, he's the GOAT, and he knows that this was going to be an amazing thing for me eventually. And I wasn't going to see that far into the future, but he was just, like, looking around the room.

36:35I'm, like, losing my mind. It felt awful. It felt horrible. It's awful. label sign you and they love bomb the fuck out of you and they make you believe that they're going to turn you into something that they don't even know how to do because no one knows anything anymore and um yeah it was really horrible and i like had a hard time getting out of bed for like three months but i keep the receipt from that dinner in my phone case from that day where my dinner with Brian. Yes. Shut up. As a reminder that, babe, you got to keep fucking going. And this receipt is gross and disgusting. You can't even read it anymore.

37:15But this was from like three years ago. Wow. I love that. Yeah, I know. He's the go and like stuck by me through everything. And it was a really difficult time. But I like took a couple months to like find it. And then we hit the ground running the next year. And that's when I went on this tour that almost made me poor again and got my second record deal like a year and a half later.

37:38Justin Tranter:So how does it feel in that moment? Yeah, a round of applause. Honestly. Yeah. Well, actually, let's stay on drop stories, Sasha. Need, need. I also couldn't get out of bed for three months. Yay. I think it's part of it. Well, so I was with RCA for, I think I signed in 2018. Wow, okay. I thought for some reason, but. But time is a mystery. I don't even know anything before COVID. I'm like, what was happening? Where was that? It was all just the same day. So I did about three EPs with them because they didn't want me to put out an album because I wasn't ready. And then the third EP I put out is my best performing.

38:19So I was like, that should have been my debut album.

38:21Justin Tranter:Right. Anyway, my debut album comes out in 2020. Well, October. For sure. Oh, shit. so I was when I signed it was pre-tik-tok I'm not good at the internet we all knew this that was understood and then it's suddenly like tiktok is the only thing yeah remember all that tour money we were gonna give you and you were gonna slow grow and nope it's gone and you just have to go viral or it's over essentially viral or die it's funny you guys but that's the truth like genuinely no it's the truth and so i was like okay well i've gained 15 pounds because i'm drinking two bottles of wine a day because the planet is ending same the last thing i want to do is go in my mirror and be like be on camera i love i think i wrote this song of the summer yeah genuinely so i'm trying they pick up my second album i was supposed to be there for three I'm like fuck then I'm so depressed and angry at society I read a song a album called I blame the world great perfect thanks apparently not though to them because that's when I got dropped yeah and you know what it was funny because like we were such on creative different pages at that point and at the bottom of my heart I was like I really hope I get dropped yeah I really do because then I will be creatively free.

39:53And then it happened and I got so sad. Yeah.

39:56Justin Tranter:Oh, really? Because it was an ego death. Right. But also it was freedom. So it was like these two great things. I was like smiling and crying at the same time. But yeah, I think that like killed my self-esteem for years. Really? That's why I kind of like went away. I just stopped writing. and then I turned 30 and I was like fuck that happened so fast I need a job yeah I was like I should probably do something and then I was like I'm gonna be 40 before I know it and like do I wanna do I wanna look back thanks but I was like do I wanna look back and be like I wasted a decade of my life because I was scared of failing and I was like no I don't and so now I'm trying really hard.

40:42Let's go. So hard. I think trying is so cool. Trying is so cool. Trying is glamorous. Trying is so chic. Trying is sick.

40:48Justin Tranter:You know what is so, one of the many things special about you is that to certain people, your artist project means so much. You and I wrote this summer, you invited me to write with you for a BTS session. Well, by invite you mean I needed you. Well, but you invited me. It was your session and you invited me. I was like, please stop. Facts are facts. And I was like, okay, like me and Sasha writing for BTS. Why the fuck not? Let's see what happens. Movie. Multiple members of BTS come into the session to pay their respects to Sasha. Oh my God, yo. Because of what was the song they were all fucking obsessed with?

41:34Justin Tranter:That was massive. What was it called? Older. So good. like literally perfect song but like multiple members come in they're just like thank you Sasha it's so nice to meet you Older is my favorite song and then another member comes in 20 minutes later Older saved my life it was so cool I know it was very sweet it's like a catch 22 for me because I think my artist project is sensitive for me because it feels like it failed but it's weird because it feels like it failed to people who saw it differently than I ever saw it right I just wanted to be like Ingrid Michaelson right I didn't want to take over the world yeah I don't want to go to radio I just wanted to play like house of blues every three years you know what I mean and so I think like I was put in this system with expectations that were very different from my own.

42:29Justin Tranter:Well, and because you had written smashes for other people that I'm sure RCA was like, okay, well, she's going to be the next Camila Cabello, which obviously we all love Camila and you did write one of her biggest songs, but you guys could not be more different when it comes to your artist projects. Yeah. Yeah, and like, I think I realized I'm an introvert. That's okay. Yeah. That's okay. When you walk into a session, Sasha, with someone like Olivia, genius icon, bow down. By the way, like probably the best person on the planet. No offense to anyone in here. Just so kind and feels crazy. Yeah, me and Amelia will go fuck ourselves.

43:05Justin Tranter:No offense. No, no. Olivia is definitely a nicer person than me. That's official. Girl, we too. We too. She can have it. She can have it. Yeah, she's definitely nicer than us. We can be fucking cunts. Okay, so. She can have it. Olivia, who's also a piano-based singer-songwriter. And you guys wrote What's Wrong With Me together. So when you walk into someone like Olivia, who's an icon and a genius, but also I think of all of your cuts as a songwriter, the closest to your artist project. Agreed. Yeah. So what's your thought process walking into that? Like, how do you make sure it's not a Sasha Sloan song?

43:48Justin Tranter:Sorry, Sasha Alex Sloan, don't sue. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It's a trademark issue. What's your thought process with that? Okay, so I pull up. I am sweating through my clothes already. I have to turn the AC up in the car. I'm 20 minutes early. Can't be late. Dying in my car. It's 100 degrees out. It's like 12.58. I get out. I'm like, be perfectly on time. I'm never late. Yeah. By the way. Same. Obsessed with being on time. walking I'm like fuck fuck fuck everything's gonna be okay you're gonna be okay you know how to write songs you can do this and I was so nervous and then she shows up and all of that went away yeah she is the nicest most talented person yeah I've ever been around not no including oh oh yeah well the talented part wasn't the beginning of the conversation I'm like wait how much are we okay no keep going keep going you love her so much

44:53um but yeah um and then it just like all my anxieties went away and it just felt like we're hanging out with friend yeah and that's her superpower yeah and yeah we just wrote that song and then I didn't hear anything about it for months and I was just like I don't even care if anything comes of this like i feel like i did my job yeah and it's a bucket list moment for me either way yeah and then i heard robert smith was featuring on it and then i had to keep that secret inside of me for like four months i was like i was like don't have i told anyone i would

45:28Justin Tranter:like wake up with a cold sweat anybody i told my manager i tell like one person so i don't like burst and like accidentally tweet it i haven't heard 12 years you know you might reopen a twitter just to do it. But yeah, and then like, I remember because like I had said, I had just been like feeling like bad about my career. I felt like a failure. And then there was like this magical moment for me where I saw them perform it. Wow. And I was like, oh. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen. Snacks. A stapler. The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money.

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46:23Justin Tranter:Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. maybe I can do this maybe my life isn't over you know what is crazy bitch is she was also probably so excited to work with you like you are a legend literally you're very sweet all of these bitches my age who are doing this like know who you are and respect the fuck out of you she's also pointing out that she's way younger than you that's what was there I'm the youngest person in the room sitting in this chair in the living room I love when people are like, oh my God, I listened to you so much.

47:09You got me through middle school. And I was like. You're like, I'm. How old are you now? 31. I'm like. I'm like four years away from perimenopause. I just found out. No, no, no. Scientifically. Let's not get there. Let's not even. We don't have to do that.

47:24Justin Tranter:It's coming. I have like sciatic issues. That womb is on the verge of geriatric. Tell me about it. I can't wait. Amelia, how do you. I can't wait. Amelia, how do you. like when you're writing with um so let's do it with Sasha um when you're writing with Sasha put Sasha on the fucking spot yeah when how do you know when a collaborator and it can be Sasha you can call her out think of a funny story because she just said that Olivia is way more talented than we are which which she is rightfully so sorry I'm sorry y 'all no no that was fine actually true though it's really please um how do you know when like you're like I love the idea but it's not it can't be on the great question wow that is a really good question

48:13hmm i don't know i think i think it's funny because i talked earlier about you know writing a song like next door having no intention of it being for me just knowing that it was good and then later coming around so like oh maybe this would make sense for my artist project for some reason when the intention at least for me is to write for myself I feel like you know very quickly and easily if it's something that you could see releasing but if the session's for you the song's for you yeah but like one someone who's not you suggests a lyric or a melody and

48:51Justin Tranter:everyone else in the room freaks out oh and they're like that's it oh my god but you as the artists have to go, hey guys, I am obsessed with 98 % of the song, but that line has to go. How do you know? First of all, how do you like gut check that? How do you know? And then how do you tell people? Cause I think I say this a lot, but it's important to say like people come to our little baby podcast to learn and telling all, of course we have to tell the stories of how the song things that went perfect, but the hard ones where people can actually learn from yeah totally i mean i think i'm really lucky to work with people who i feel really comfortable being completely brutally honest with and i think a really important part of making something you love is not being afraid to try something that might sound like actual dog shit and you guys just like have ideas and you try them and if they work they work and if they don't they don't and you just move on and no one's feelings are hurt um like best idea wins all the time there have been what if the best idea isn't what i want yeah i feel like there have been times from like everyone in the room agrees on this.

49:57I'm like going to jump out of the plane and just like trust that everything's going to be okay. Recently, I can think of an example. It was actually my own idea that I was like petrified by and hated so much, but everyone else seemed to love it. I was writing this song with DCF and Inverness who I love. And we were trying to find like the main lyric in the hook and I knew that I was writing about somebody who is a relationship hopper. Babe, okay? We've all been there, unfortunately. We know the ones. We had the melody.

50:36Justin Tranter:I had lived with like seven different boyfriends in like five years. So maybe I was writing it about you. But I was sitting there and we had the melody and I was like, this idea is so bad I can't even say it out loud like I'm so scared this sounds like the worst fucking thing I would see on TikTok and scroll by it like I'm scared I'm scared I'm scared I don't want to say it I don't want to say it and DCF can see me freaking out and he's like what are you doing like what's going on and I was like I think I have it but I think it's really bad I think it's really bad I think it's really bad and I finally say it out loud and both of them are like that's it can you just shut the fuck up and sing that and I was like no but it's bad you guys and I thought it was bad for so long and then we ended up like zooming back in on the production and i was like oh it's perfect okay but sometimes like there have been examples of i think in my song uh back to him we similar to nicotine heroin morphine made up a word on dickable not a word but um a straight man in the room suggested that and i was like i don't know you guys Guys, I don't know.

51:43And then we had to like call a woman and like check it, see if it was okay.

51:46Justin Tranter:Because you couldn't trust yourself. But I was scared. I was scared of that one. And then it ended up like becoming the part of the song that people love the most because it's a random word. What does undickable mean? Undickable. The lyric is you got to show this dick that you become undickable. So you have to show this asshole of a man you keep going back to that he can't hit no more. Oh, show the dick, the man. The man. Not his actual dick. That he can't hit anymore. Yeah, the person. You have to show this dickweed, this person, that he's not allowed to hit it anymore. Oh my God. And I was scared of that one.

52:19Did it stay? It stayed. That's incredible. I was really scared of it though. It's the name of the album. I love that. You didn't tell me that yet. But I'm really more on streaming through that. Also not to speak on your behalf, but just as someone who like receives ideas you don't like, you're very nice. Ah. You're very like nicer than Olivia Rodrigo. you what's nice or the same i think she's still nicer i'm sorry she's a little nicer no i mean i mean it's fine no it's fine it's fine but like i've had some i've thrown some lines out at you because i also just say whatever i'm thinking yeah of course because i'm like if i say something stupid it might be funny enough to lead to the real thing of course yeah and every time you're like hmm yeah and i'm like oh she doesn't like it no because but that's the nicest thing ever yeah how do you guys say no to an idea because there have been artists that are like i would never say that shit and i'm like and it kills the vibe it kills the vibe because then i go well okay i'm gonna just stop talking now totally okay i love this let's zoom in on this this is actually

53:22Justin Tranter:She's so helpful for people trying to learn to collaborate. What someone saying, no, I would never say that. I would, bad. Bad. That's a bad collaborator. Bad, bad. Not good. I think what you said, how Amelia does it of like, when, if you suggest a lyric that she doesn't like, she just goes, mm, mm. Yeah. Like, you know, that's a no. You know that's a no. But it doesn't kill the whole fucking day. No, because you've heard me, you've considered it. and then it's my job to go, got it, move on. Move on. Yeah, my favorite, if it's collaborators that I'm like super fucking close with, it's just like, I don't think so.

54:02Justin Tranter:Or the, mm, mm, and I'll keep the game. I love something like that. It's, and then, yeah. Yeah, something like that. Or I'll just go like, oh my God, I'm fucking obsessed, obsessed, obsessed. What if we go blotty, dutty, dutty? Yes, yes. And like grab a tiny piece of it. Totally. That's my favorite with people I don't know very well. Yeah. Or also my favorite, if I know you really well, but like the vibes are just so high, it's actually a genuine, like, even though I'm like, there's no way that can be the lyric, but like, I'm genuinely just so hyped. But I use that genuine feeling when it's also not genuine to try to like, because it is so hard.

54:39Justin Tranter:It's such a fragile thing. Well, you also want everyone to feel like they can share. Heard and respected. And like, also like you need everyone to feel like they can make a bad suggestion because that leads to the good stuff yeah it always does but you're a pro at doing that which is also why i love writing with you and you're funny and also now if you're like i would never say that shit i would be like i know then i would laugh yeah well that's when you get close enough you have to get there you have to get there to be comfortable enough to be like girl you know that's not even that's nice yeah sure that's some traumatic like experiences you don't even know.

55:17Justin Tranter:Let's talk about this next topic and we can all agree to delete it if we want. K-pop. Oh, I love it. Okay. We all have K-pop cuts. That's not what I thought you were going to say. Yeah, no, no, no. I was like. Well, it's because the K-pop fandoms are fucking passionate. They're very, very passionate, which is why K-pop is as important and massive as it is. The K-pop creative process is very different than normal. can you guys talk about your pick one k-pop cut and walk through how the process worked for you like i think the fan base is so passionate and they're they're so curious to how it gets across the finish line and for me my k-pop experiences for the most part are drastically different than any other well i want to hear yours sure i mean you know my first k-pop cut ever was with um the group twice.

56:12Yeah.

56:12Justin Tranter:And it was One of the biggest ones. Massive, massive group. I had no, I didn't know about K-pop at the time though. This was like 2020 in like the heat of COVID. And got an email like, hey, can you approve these splits? It's a song that me, Julia, Zara Larson and MNEK had written six years earlier. What a room. Oh my God. And it didn't make it onto Zara's album. 10 years ago at this point now, but at the time, like six years ago. And they more, Twice was going to do it. And it was called like Back and Forth with Us. And it was filthy. It was filthy, filthy, filthy song. Yeah. And most of it was rewritten into Korean.

56:58Justin Tranter:So I had to approve the splits. And I had not heard the song in so long and so many things changed. But because there was so much space from it, it was just like, oh yeah, cool. You know, or I've done a lot of recently of like K-pop lyric rewrites where I get sent a song. And it says, here's the title. Do not change the title. And then I'll get like a two page document of like, this is what we want the title to be about. Two pages. And then I, which I kind of love. It's like this crazy math thing. And lyrics are my favorite parts of songs. but it's math. It's like you must talk about this, this, this, and this and you do not change one rhythm, one note.

57:46Justin Tranter:So every single lyric has to fit into this thing and it has to align with this two-page document. So those are my, and there's been a lot of K-pop cuts recently but most of them have been through that like math situation. I love math. I'm not gonna lie I feel like I'm in the wrong profession because I would crush a corporate job I love being on time I love when my boss is proud of me I wish I had one because I'm the boss and I hate myself and I would just crush I would really would I feel like I would I know how to get from point A to point B oh I definitely should not be an A &R but that's why I love K-pop because they're like, this is what we need.

58:38This is what it needs to sound like. And I'm like, great.

58:41Justin Tranter:Great. It's better than just starting at nowhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I find like the success of having K-pop has just been stuff that like I like. You had one recently, like last year, that was really big. Not Cute Anymore. Yes. So good. What's so funny is. What? Thanks. I like. So tell me about Not Cute Anymore. Yeah. so I just like it's so funny so talking a lot about fear here I wrote that with Jasper Harris icon love him yep and I knew him before he had a cut like he came into my house I had found his like piano videos I was like you're so talented you should come over and hang out wow and then like he got all this success and I was in my like hibernation I suck no one should ever like work with me again era and then when i turned 30 i was like i should get back out there again and he was one of the first people that i reconnected with oh wow cool he was like just come over like we'll just hang maybe we'll make something yeah i was like great we just make that we catch up for like three hours and then i was like we don't have to make music today he's like let's try yeah and then i was like oh like what about this kind of beat or whatever and then yeah we just made that song and then it got turned into Korean.

1:00:01Wow. But like -

1:00:03Justin Tranter:Did you get put through a lot of notes in that process or did they just take it and they went and - They just took it. They went and did it. Yeah. Cool. That's iconic. And then you have, what's it called? Pop Pop? Girl, another one that I like just didn't know. You know, not Keating War was, that's what it called, right? You keep sneaking up on me. That was like - Everywhere. That was my entire algorithm a year ago. It was huge. It was huge. Yeah. Sasha's - So random. Take the credits. Sasha's probably there. um my experience with k-pop I haven't really again like a lot of my placements have come from songs that I've written for me that just like get recycled and repurposed and like someone else does all the work but like keeps all my background vocals in and I'm happy so I love that get that sag yeah I love it so much um but I think something that is funny to me about like a very specific brief.

1:00:55This is no tea, no shade. Okay. No pink lemonade. But I think a lot of the times when anyone is briefing you for anything and they're like, we want a song like I kissed a girl or we want a song like needed me. I'm like, no, y 'all don't. Y 'all just want a song that is as big as that song was. So how about you don't pick like the biggest song of all time for me to reference in this session right now? If I see we found love in a hopeless place on one more pitch. Why are we referencing the big, just ask Max Martin to do it. By the way, that song is one line over and over. And if I sent you that, you would say, you would die.

1:01:32Justin Tranter:And there's no chorus. There's no chorus. We found love is possibly top five pop songs of all time. 100%. But there's no, the chorus is, it's the track. So good. The emotional payoff of we found love is not the song. It's the track. Right. And it's one line over and over. And yes, if you were to send that to any A &R, they'd be like, so you can't write any more lyrics? You loser, I hope you die. I think we need another section. Truly. Hey, you sent this reference that is one line over and over. So you just, oh, you just want a song as big as that was, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, we all do.

1:02:10So true. We all do. Yeah, that's why I'm trying really hard. You think I'm trying to write bad songs? No, I'm trying to write great songs. album cuts make us$12 now

1:02:23Justin Tranter:we don't want an album cut we need it it's all for the dogs before we move to the questions that we end every episode with Sasha we have to talk about our most iconic cut together okay I'm not scared anymore because so many people get so confused about the credits and how things got there wait which song is this I'm gonna get there and this song is a great example of like people like how did you Justin Tranter end up with a song with Juice WRLD? I get asked that a lot. The truth is because I'm a proud collaborator and I give credit where all credits do. I got really really really really fucking lucky.

1:03:14Justin Tranter:So me and Sasha have a Juice WRLD cut together because me and Sasha, I know, could you die? I mean, it couldn't be more random. It's so glamorous. So Sasha and I write together for two days with Benny Blanco, Goat, Legend, Sweetie Pie. And at some point we see each other again or we text each other and we're like, hey, did we ever get bounces from those days? Never. And we were like, no, we never did. And you were like, fuck, I really wanted, like one of those songs I think would have worked great for my album or EP, whatever you're working on. I was like, yeah, those felt great. Fuck, you know, like.

1:03:52Justin Tranter:They were good. Yeah, well, you know, sometimes whatever. Yeah, move on. Yeah. And then we each get emails separately and it's like, hey, Benny took the piano part that Sasha wrote for one of the songs that the three of us made together, took the piano part that Sasha wrote and turned it into a Juice WRLD track. And it's like coming out in three days. And like, here are the suggested splits or whatever. And I was just like, splits, by the way, for anyone who does not know all the geeky shit in our shit show of business, is like the percentage of the song that you own as a co-writer. So I think, honestly, I have no memory.

1:04:37Justin Tranter:Let's say they suggested 2.5 % for me. And I was like, yeah, no, literally, it's Sasha's piano part. I just was like chilling. I probably said a couple absurd lyrics that day, but those lyrics have been deleted. Those lyrics don't exist. So I was like, yeah, 2.5 is chill, whatever it was. It was five or it was small, which is what I deserved. And then I just remember saying that in the response, like, you know, because we heard, they sent us the song to hear before it came out. And I was like, Sasha's piano part is so major though. Like as long as Sasha's cool, I'm cool. That was like the whole conversation.

1:05:10Justin Tranter:but like one of my proudest cuts and I didn't do anything. Look, sometimes, sometimes it's your idea and you do a lot of heavy lifting and sometimes you're just there. Yeah. Yeah. But like, how does that feel for you as of course an unbelievable lyricist, melody writer, but also an amazing piano player writer that you like have this iconic piano moment with Juice WRLD? I don't know. I didn't even think about it. I was just like, this is sick. Yeah. But I don't know. I like, I think, you know, it's kind of sad is when I moved to LA, I stopped playing as much. And you're one of the only people that were ever like, you should go play.

1:05:53Oh, wow. Yeah. I feel like this is something that I didn't know. Like no one talks about it. But I just feel like sometimes, especially when I first moved here, I would just get steamrolled by producers.

1:06:02Justin Tranter:Right. Well, men get really confused when women try to touch things. Yeah. Don't touch the computer. Don't touch an instrument. That's for boys. Right. Yeah. Watching it happen in real time every day in our business. And I remember being like in so many of our early sessions, like, no, Sasha, you play piano way better than these bros. Can you please do it? Go do it now, please. And it was very sweet. And I still think about it. So thanks. And now we have a Juice WRLD cup because of it. I know. Wow. So fucking cool. That's so sick. Yeah. So fucking sick. Oh, I'm obsessed. Okay. hold on, Morgan, we covered so many of these.

1:06:41Justin Tranter:You're such a good interviewer. Yeah. It's so hard. But she does all the hard work. You're both crushing it. She does like researches everything and structures it for me. Yeah. And then I like read it all beforehand so that I don't have to look at the cards the whole time. And then a lot of times, because Morgan's so good, everyone starts talking naturally about what's in here. So I don't really have to look at it. Yeah. Okay. So question we ask everybody, What is the song that ruined your life? Meaning when you were young and you heard a song or saw a video or saw, I mean, Amelia, you're so young.

1:07:19Justin Tranter:It probably was a TikTok. Okay. Probably was a YouTube. When you were like, oh my God, this, I am music now. I have to make music. So now I'm going to beg people to let me into this shitty fucking business. how, what, do you remember the song, the artist? I remember. You go. Tell me. I'll give you some time. Thank you. To recall your YouTube history. Thank you so much. Yeah, my TikTok's rolling history. I'm 12 years old, by the way. You're pretty fucking close. I'm 25, you guys. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, wow, that skin, I literally thought you were like 19. Oh, yeah, you do look amazing. Thank you.

1:08:02Period. you in? Mine was You Were Meant For Me by Jewel.

1:08:06Justin Tranter:Oh my God, yes. Yeah. You know what? Jewel has not been mentioned on this podcast yet, and that is my fault. Because Jewel, I was a huge Jewel fucking fan and somehow I've forgotten. Do you remember where you were when you heard You Were Meant For Me? All I know is it's one of my earliest core memories. Just singing that song over and over. And then I recently was going through some stuff and I found a journal entry my mom made. I know, so wholesome. And it was a photo of me as a baby. I was like a six-year-old, whatever. And she goes, all she does is run around and sing You Were Meant For Me by Jewel.

1:08:40And she calls it Sasha's Song. I know.

1:08:44Justin Tranter:That is so cute. I know. Why am I going to cry? I'm going to freak out. I love you, Mom. Just so you know, I've cried. Has anyone cried on here before? Oh, I've cried multiple times about this question. And then my answer is Debbie Gibson, who, do you know who that is? No. I'm going to nod, though. I'm going to nod, though. I was like, you are definitely too young to know Debbie Gibson. Olivia Rodrigo nice my way like into the yes nod I'll nod. Debbie was piano singer songwriter. Still to this day tied for the youngest person to ever write and produce a number one. She was like 16. Whoa. Legend.

1:09:20And I was obsessed with her.

1:09:22Justin Tranter:And I've gotten emotional talking about her multiple times. And then she came on the podcast. I'm going to get emotional again. Oh my God. on the podcast and I like made it through the whole episode. And then at the end, literally broke down in front of this brilliant woman who, by the way, is like not even that much older than me because like when she had a number one at 16, I was like eight. Yeah. And I look up to her though, like a God, like basically the same age. And I'm like sobbing at her. Like I'm 12 and she's 50. Oh my God. Jewel, you were meant for me. It was, I was late high school.

1:09:57Justin Tranter:I was like senior year when that song came out and that was major. And Foolish Games jewel. That's, these hands are small, I know. Amelia, do you know yours? That's so sweet, you guys. A couple of like, I do know mine. You gotta pick one, put it first. Okay, I'm putting it first. I originally thought I was going to be like Broadway theater fantasy. Same girl. So everything was Annie for me. That's like what we bonded over. We connected over Annie. It was Annie. It was Annie for me, the entire soundtrack. Like, I was Annie in my church's production of the musical with a bunch of other homeschoolers, girl.

1:10:36Let's just imagine a bunch of homeschoolers doing a musical together. What's going on at church? Like, sure, I'm Annie. This is my moment. I'm famous. Like, this is my life now. I'm going to be on Broadway.

1:10:48Justin Tranter:Wait, because I know this, but really quick, Like you grew up like in a very religious homeschooled because it was like public school. It's not for God. Yes. Did they like change certain things about Annie? Like was Miss Hannigan allowed to be a drunk? Or was she just like sleepy? Was Miss Hannigan sleepy? I think she was sleepy. I think she was really tired. Yeah, definitely like PG'd it down. I mean, it's pretty PG, but. Even more. G. G. Even more. but you know what is another random one about you girl that you got me on and I didn't know? The Christian upbringing. Sasha Alex Lone co-wrote I'll Find You Tori Kelly Lecrae.

1:11:33And I was on Lecrae, Andy Mineo, Tori Kelly, all of like the Christian like radio. Maybe for me, it was 104.7 The Fish, the Christian radio station in Atlanta. Not The Fish. 104.7 The Fish, okay? and Sasha did that song. No. Which is crazy. And it was like. You know that song? Of course. Of course. Of course. Wow. What an amazing song. Oh my God. So good. Just fight a little longer, my friend. So good. It's so good. You know that song actually was better, but it was an interpolation of a Kate Bush song and she said no. So then we had to rewrite it. You're kidding. Yeah.

1:12:14Justin Tranter:I mean, Kate Bush isn't down for the Lord. Obviously. I was like, she's not going to sing. Totally fair. She should say no. I'm like, what? A Fish doesn't want her song played on the fish. You ate that. Thefishatlanta.com. 104.7 The Fish. I don't know if it exists anymore. But after the theater of it all and when I woke up and realized I wanted to be an artist, it was for sure Mirrors by Justin Summerlake. Oh, that's when you said I'm a pop star now. One of my favorite songs of all time. I was like, oh, this is music. They wouldn't play this on The Fish. Listen to the backgrounds, you guys. Listen to the drums.

1:12:47Like, I was not used to listening to shit like Timbaland produced. So then that was my song for me. And then I got to make a song with Timbaland, which was crazy. Big full circle. Wait, what? Wow. He did production on a song of mine called Back Tim with the lyric, Undickable. Guys, it's all coming back. Not full circle. And we did it at the Vegas camp. I'm kidding. It all comes back to the Vegas camp.

1:13:14Justin Tranter:have you seen the video of Timbaland recently at a festival doing the Nelly Furtado song? Insane. The most passionate performance I've ever seen in my fucking life. Insane. Insane. One of the greatest songwriters, producers of all time. And he does the Nelly Furtado song and he just. So insane. For three minutes. And it's honestly performance art. Yeah. It's high fucking level. It's high art. Taylor Mac wishes. like like karen finley trash these are all performance artists what walk with me walk with me just laugh we're smiling we're nodding we're cool we know marina romovich nothing um you know i have a timberland story that i need to wrap it up but it's too good to tell not to tell so we met it was like supposed to it was gonna be a session but it wasn't we met whatever blah blah blah.

1:14:06Justin Tranter:He invited me to be a guest judge on a show he was doing, like a singing competition show. Let's say it was TLC. I don't know. And I'm like, well, it's Timbaland. I will do whatever he wants. One of the greatest writer producers of all time. Sure. So I show up done. Right. Like, if you're just randomly tuning this podcast, just like look up pictures of me at events. she's done. Okay, done. Heels, makeup, she's done. So I show up to this singing competition to be a guest judge, done. No one told me it was a children's show. Oh no. So like everyone Everyone singing is like seven. No! And I'm like, no!

1:14:59Cut.

1:15:01Justin Tranter:work. No, I watch my mouth. I watch my mouth. But like, you know, like I would have still shown up as myself, but I would have shown up like this. Do you know what I mean? You dress for the job. I did not know what the job was. I didn't have a manager at the time. Like there was no one to ask more questions. It's amazing. Just guessing. I basically showed up in drag to like tell seven-year-olds they weren't singing good. It was fucking crazy. That is performance art. Okay. That is performance art. Speaking of, yeah, hello, who's Marina Brabovich now? Okay. To end every episode, we play a game called Gag or Drag.

1:15:42Justin Tranter:Love. Gag means you love it. Drag means you hate it. Okay. Gag or drag, the artist changes the best lyric because I would never say that. We already talked about this. Wait, gag is. Gag you love it, drag you hate it. one more time do not be sorry gag or drag the artist changes the best lyric in the song because i would never say that drag drag i think drag you're gonna say drag i know i know but if me i'm thinking about yeah if i wrote a song and i'm like this is a line and it comes out and the line's not there drag drag okay yeah drag um gag gag or drag uh a co-writer walks in with the chorus already written oh if it's good gag if it's bad drag drag yeah i had never liked that really unless the artist can do it okay i don't know why yeah it's a gag for me amazing yeah if it's amazing it's a total gag sure yeah i guess yeah it's a hard question because if it's amazing saying it's a gag.

1:16:52Yeah. I think it depends because some writers will do that and they will not be open to changing it. That's when it's a drag for me. Come in with an idea with an open mind. That. Then it's a gag.

1:17:03Justin Tranter:Then it's a gag. Sure. Love it. Gag or drag. Someone says, can we make it more universal the second the lyric finally gets specific? And I'm going to up Morgan's question. Gag or drag. Someone says, can we make it more universal the second the lyric finally gets good and specific. Yeah, drag. Big drag. Big drag. I'm so scared. Did you guys, I feel like the like, there was a while, it was like a huge trend of like the more specific, the better. Which some of our favorite people and co-writers and ourselves were a part of. And now I think there's like a, I don't know if you guys are here, but there's a big pushback from executives of like, no, no, we want more universal now.

1:17:50Are you feeling that or no? I weirdly, you know the saying, like a friend to everyone is a friend to no one? I think the same thing can apply in writing a song. I think these days, kind of going back to what I said earlier, like you don't have to list every single exact fucking specific detail about the exact experience, but write something personal. And weirdly, I feel like the deeper you go within yourself, the more you give yourself to everybody instead of like, I'm going to write this song for everyone. It's going to land nowhere. Yeah. Is my experience as writing for myself. Yeah. But I also understand it's a skill to write something commercial and broad enough to where everyone wants to say it.

1:18:31And like, that's a skill in itself too. If you can do both at the same time, you crack the motherfucking code. Yeah. I agree.

1:18:36Justin Tranter:Yeah. Gag or drag, booking a session three weeks in advance and being canceled on a few minutes before. That's so, that's such a drag. That's so LA. That's such a drag. That is so LA. because I don't live here. Right. Ooh, drag. Oh, right. For you now, when you schedule stuff to come out and fly out for it. That's a drag. I just expect people to cancel. Although I do think it's working in my favor because they know I don't live here. Oh, right. There's more pressure on them. So they're like, I have to show up today. And it's like, oh, she came all this way and blah, blah, blah. And she won't be back.

1:19:09Won't be back for a while. Have you guys ever done that?

1:19:12Justin Tranter:Cancel last second? Like, when was the last time you canceled day of? It's only if there's like a real fucking, I don't cancel at all. myself to death to the point that doesn't even make any sense anymore i mean i started a fucking podcast like yeah i'm like wait how do you have time to do this um so i only cancel if it's like yeah it's something's bad major yeah totally like i used to be a big canceler really until my trying era and here we are you guys she's trying but i only canceled because i was scared yeah but now i now i do things that scare me you would cancel sessions because you were scared yes No.

1:19:47You're such an angel, yo. Like, one day you'll see, like, genuinely the legend that you are. Like, it's insane. And everyone who's in a room with you is, like, dying to work with you. That's crazy to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So nice, right? So nice. Yeah, you're so nice. You're maybe the nicest person I know, actually. Like, and maybe the most talented. Crazy.

1:20:12Justin Tranter:Just thinking. I just kind of hit me now. Just throwing that out there. gag or drag a major label offers you more money than you've ever seen but wants way more control than you're comfortable with drag but i did love that shit i think it depends on like i love that money i'm not gonna lie i was like okay this advance is worth embarrassing myself on youtube for the rest of my life. Sure. Sure. Once you're indie, it's a tighter budget. Of course. No, of course it is. It's your budget. It's your budget and it's much harder. Absolutely. Yeah. Did you sign your deal with RCA after you already had a smash as a songwriter?

1:20:55Mm-hmm.

1:20:56Justin Tranter:Oh, yeah, so that advance was pretty. It was nice. It was nice. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I get really good advice, got really good advice from my lawyer

1:21:11Justin Tranter:always, not in the band days, that's a different conversation, but as a writer, I think this is actually really helpful information. His advice to me was always like, don't ever take an advance that's going to put pressure on you until you've built something so big that the advance will actually change your life. And I don't mean change your life for a couple of years. I mean like change your life forever if you're not a fucking idiot. So I had, I don't think I've ever talked about this before publicly. I had three number ones at pop radio, one Hot 100 number one. And I took an advance that was$500 ,000.

1:21:46Justin Tranter:Wow. Whoa. Which we probably easily could have gotten 3 million. Yeah. And he was like, do you believe in yourself? Do you think more hits are coming? And I was like, yes. Of course. Of course. And he's like, then we're going to take something that you can blow through in days. Yeah. And then like, we're going to wait to go in for the fucking kill. Totally. And we did. And I think it's really good advice. I think that when people get insecure and they get nervous that you have one hit or you have one moment or you have one viral moment and you, everyone wants to just get as much money as possible in case it's the end, which I understand.

1:22:22Who would ever do that?

1:22:23Justin Tranter:I do understand. Yeah, you guys. Sasha, I brought you here today to talk about it. Who would ever do that? Like a year ago.

1:22:34who would just pass on an admin deal because they were scared they would never have another cut again. I don't know.

1:22:43Justin Tranter:Yeah, this is actually an intervention. I actually can't think of it. We're here today, Sasha, to sit you down. Can you imagine? Okay, last question, I promise, for real. What is one piece of advice that you, something you've learned now that you wish you could tell yourself when you first started writing? it can be creative advice. It can be business advice. Buckle up. Buckle up. Strap in, diva. Strap in. Do you have something? I think I have something. Go, go. I think a really hard lesson that took me a while to learn was to not take everything so damn personally, girl. When I got dropped, I felt like these people were personally out to get me and wanted to see me fail when same, unfortunately these people, it's the music business.

1:23:42You guys, it's half music and inspiration and fun and creativity. The other half is the business. And these people were probably at the, in the financial department of capital, looking through a sheet of paper. Oh, Amelia's in the red. Yep. We got to let that one go. Who is that? I don't know. Next page. Who else is getting dropped today? like it is not personal at all stop taking shit so personally even if like um you do less work on a song you contribute less and you get two and a half percent on a record don't take it personally if if everything was done fair and square like don't let it get to you even even like the positive things like I said labels will love bomb you like you're you're gonna be the biggest star in the world don't take it personally these people are just doing their jobs like believe in yourself and know who you are and have people around you that you trust and only listen to what those trusted adults trusted amelia that is one of the better pieces of advice ever

1:24:37Justin Tranter:especially how you what you said at the very end which is like the positive too even when people are gassing you up you if you're gonna people just say shit if you're gonna tell yourself don't take the negative stuff personally do not take the positive you also have to remember to not take the positive stuff personally. Because it's not. No. It's not. People will say, people have said to, I'm not going to name names, people that I would have never, ever would have ever thought had any type of level of success or don't even deserve to, in my opinion. Like there are people on their team telling them that they're amazing and that they're doing a good job and they believe in them and they've always have.

1:25:13No, name names. Yeah, put it out there. That's not true. You don't believe in this. It's just making you money. It is just making you money. You don't believe in that. You don't believe in that.

1:25:21Justin Tranter:I love that. Or it's the same when like you blow up and become famous. People are like, I always knew. No, you didn't. You dropped me. So, no, you didn't. No, you didn't. You dropped me. So, oh, where was that mentality? Oh, when you let me go. Nowhere to be found. Don't believe any of it. Genuinely. Seriously. Positive or negative. Yeah. Don't believe anything anyone says. It's so true though. Who the fuck you are. That is the best advice. Yeah. And I will add success from the outside, from everyone else, because I still compare myself every fucking day to writers around me but no one's graph is this yeah it is yep this yeah and sometimes this yeah and sometimes completely well no up a little bit and then down even further and then up and then the graph actually somehow gets bigger and like longer yeah you go even farther than you thought you could an industrial printer to find it.

1:26:20Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. No, and I think also it's just music business specific because the things that you guys both just said can apply to everything. Yeah. What's music business so specific as writers, not so much as an artist, but as an artist too, is that we can't control release schedules. No. So when it seems like on the outside, like some writer, producer is going through the craziest run ever. Yeah. My first crazy run, some of those songs I wrote four years earlier. Some of them I wrote two months earlier. the release schedule gods, they really loved me. Like 2015, 16, 17, honey, they were just like, here it is.

1:26:59Justin Tranter:It was, but it's not, there was so many no's in that period. There was so many go fuck yourselves in that period. There was so many like literal emails. Like, I don't know if they're comfortable working with gay people for real in that period. But to everybody else, it seems like everything I did was perfect. And it's like, no, no, I was being ripped apart, but everything seems different from the outside. I just want to add one last quick thing. Please. Important, I would say, to separate your identity from your job. That's fucking hard when your job is what you love. So personal when it's so personal.

1:27:33Justin Tranter:So how do you do it? But yeah, that's true. Because I don't know how to. I don't know how. I went to therapy and I was like, okay, like success defines me. And she was like, and I was like, what the fuck? Save some, fix it. I just paid you. Yeah. But I think like having a life outside of your job. Like I have friends who aren't in music. They don't know what I do. They don't care. They're proud of me when I see them excited, which is never.

1:28:03Justin Tranter:And on that note, thank you so much. Amelia. That was perfect.

1:28:17Justin Tranter:Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations. And also, pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday. I hate Mondays. King's Hawaiian Cinnamon Swirl Bite? Taylor Hanson? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm. Hey, let's get back to work, please. But Taylor Hanson's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian Cinnamon Bites. Taylor Hanson? Nice. Try one. Mmm.

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