Katy Perry + Christian Breslauer | Watch It Burn, Feminine Fire, and Why It’s Okay to Be Angry

24:31Justin Tranter:all the conditioning yeah it's which i think is so beautiful that you get to do it through your music as well. You get to mark these moments of emotional growth through your songs. My other aha moment the other day in yoga, go to yoga, was, okay, I get really nervous public speaking and talking about my experience because I didn't grow up with a formal education. I get nervous about that, but I am just, and I'm getting through that. But what I'm grateful for is that God still gave me a singing voice. A really special one. That I know how to use, that I know how to channel with, that I know how to communicate with to people.

25:15And I'm so grateful for that.

25:17Justin Tranter:Yeah. So I didn't lose my voice completely. Not at all. After all I've been through growing up. Yeah. You know, where we all come from. Yeah. All the, everyone has a story. Everyone's been through something. And you get to tell yours. And that's how I get to tell mine. Yeah. It's when I, when you got on like the proper mic for the first time, because a lot of times when you're writing, you like do a little quick scratch vocal in the studio and blah, blah, blah. She sounds amazing wherever. But the first time you got on the mic, I've had three moments. I had to suck in my butt cheeks. I had three.

25:49Justin Tranter:Yeah. We had you singing high. Yeah. And that's a lot of air. Yeah. It's a lot of training. Why are you drinking alcohol? Oh, I, the dumb. Why are you smoking cigarettes? The dumb choices I made on tour thinking I could drink and sound good. So dumb. This is all about. I'm trying to compliment you. Let me compliment you. This is all about alchemy and equanimity. Yeah. This is all about balance. Whatever you want to be, you have to understand what it takes to be that. Right. Fully. Mechanically. Yeah. And then apply it. No, I mean, it's a lot of sacrifice to go on the road and perform. Sacrificing pizza is tough.

26:27Justin Tranter:It's really tough. but I've had three moments in my career where someone got on the mic and it was like hard in a good way hard to process and it was Gwen Stefani on the mic I'm just like oh fuck that's just how she sounds yeah that's how she sounds for sure Britney Spears and oh fuck that's just how she sounds and then when you got on the mic I was like oh that yeah that's just it sounds like you're already on the radio the second you open your mouth it's really it sounds done the second it comes out it's really special you're you're only as good as your plugins right i mean yeah and you get you have a lot of thoughts when you're born with a plugin i would love to bring out christian yes will you join us come on christian bresler so So round of applause for Christian.

27:23Justin Tranter:Okay, so instead of me being the host and like doing like an annoying intro, what we do is we have the collaborators, which we've already, you don't have to introduce Katie because everyone knows. But I would like Katie to introduce Christian so that everyone watching knows the story. Okay, this is Christian Boeselauer, everyone. He is the director and co-writer of both Band-Aids and Watch It Burn music videos. And he also has done everything. But I sought him out. I mean, you worked with Doja. You've worked with Ari. I sought you out when you were in the hip-hop game. I screenshotted your Instagram in like 2018.

28:15and I was like, this guy's doing crazy shit with hip hop guys. It was a little bit like guerrilla budget. Yeah, just doing fun stuff. Just doing fun stuff, but you're so actively engaged in it. And I was like, oh, wow, this is amazing to see a director actively engaged in it. And you're still that way. When we do Watch It Burn, when we just did Watch It Burn, he was in the car wash with me. He's just like, he's one of those guys that says, fuck it, let's go. And you can trust because he also has taste.

28:50Justin Tranter:Right. So it's tough when you don't have taste. Then you've got to do a little bit of handholding, which is fine. Yep. Right? Absolutely. But you've got taste and you've got vision and you've got action. Thank you. And all those things applied. Yeah. Is the formula. Do you guys remember when your first meeting together and when you like, for both of you. Well, go. Zooms. Yeah, I was going to say, I remember there was, I mean, the first interaction, I think we had tried to link around 2019, I think it was around COVID. Oh, you've written so many. Yeah, I was like, there was opportunities before.

29:25Yes, we've been on a bunch of calls. And then we linked on something in the last time we tried, but didn't work out. And then it finally, we found Band-Aids and we landed the, you know, we kind of had some great chats. and you had a really like strong vision for what you wanted with both of these videos honestly and that's usually kind of the leap off for me is like with any artist I work with it's always kind of a feel out right it's like you know how involved do you want to be yeah some people are like hey I trust you you've done a lot of things and whatever you want some people have a semblance of an idea and then some people have a very detailed fleshed out idea and it's like okay I understand in that conversation my role and especially with these was more like oh this is Katie's vision this is personal records this is some stuff that I want to just make sure I'm kind of the vessel to bring it visually together right it's like not so much putting my imprint on it in

30:17Justin Tranter:in any unnecessary way yeah like wherever the gaps are I'd be like hey what if we do this what if we do that but I really wanted to kind of keep the core of her vision like intact and that's generally with both of those videos and I can't take you know if any of the greatness from it there's a lot of it's from you you know yeah but without the team and without no of course there would no the thing is creators are dreamers very much so yeah but you have to have the reality industry right someone has to make it the dream real someone has to make the dream real or it's just gonna stay up here in the quantum yeah which is great because that's where it all is anyways Yeah.

30:59But you got to pick it out, pull it out, write it down, put it into something that is matter. Yeah. That's how you manifest.

31:08Justin Tranter:Yeah. You pull it out, you write it down. That's like a first step. It's like the easiest first step to manifesting is writing something down. Yeah. And writing it out and then having a team around you to support you and then having, you know, how many hundreds of people worked on it to having executors, but like you got to get out of this like dreamland and thinking that you're gonna win no no no no you need you need collaborators to make it act real the vehicle needs gasolina is that what you look for in is that what you is that what you look for in collaborators of like whether it's producer or co-writer or director are you always like looking for like okay who is gonna actually get this dream to reality is that i look at a few things to be honest yeah to help me one is i look at resumes right let's just look at a resume yeah let's see what they've done in the past yeah you know or see what they're doing currently like the what are they creating currently and does it uh does it resonate with me yeah and my story that i want to tell and then two i get on the phone with them or we talk and I look in their eyes if I check and I know everything there because it's in the eyes in the eyes the confidence if you have it if you don't have it if you want to have it it's right there and also it's just a look when we had our first FaceTime I was actually sitting on this couch, and we had met socially a couple times, but we had never worked together.

32:54Justin Tranter:And when you said that you wanted to go back to pop rock, my confidence immediately went, because I was in a rock band for years. So it's like, because sometimes you never know. Like, no matter how fierce I think I am, if someone says, I want to do an R &B album, I'm not going to have any confidence. Like, love it, I can't write it. So when you said pop rock, I was like, I got this. It was, was there in your conversation with Katie, was there something that she said that made you feel like, okay, I'm the right person for this job? I was sitting there on set. I'm watching the footage. You're in the car wash, and we're getting great stuff, but I'm like, the energy's in the car.

33:26And I'm looking around at my DP. I'm like, he didn't look like he wants to go get wet. This guy doesn't want to get wet. I'm like, I love operating. What time was it in the morning? It was like 3 a.m., 4 a.m. It was cold. But I'm like, I can't, you know, I can't just, you know, leave her hanging dry out there, no pun intended. But I was like, I'm going to get in there, and let's get the shot. And we did. and it made the video, you know?

33:49Justin Tranter:Yeah. Do you still really enjoy the hard work that it takes to keep going? It never feels like work. Right. None of this feels like work. Yeah. This is all creative and fun. And there's a grind when you pull up your sleeves and you have to do the tedious stuff, like, you know, mixing and mastering and figuring out copy and artwork and all of that stuff. And, you know, you also, if you're working backwards from a deadline, Right. Then there's really a crying. Then it's very stressful. You are, as a co-writer in music, you are very specific about you know what you want. Whether it's like asking the person at the computer to please change this effect or pushing me and Kiddo who wrote these songs with us of like, no, the lyric needs to be about this specifically, blah, blah, blah.

34:40Justin Tranter:When it comes to the video process, are you 10 steps ahead just like you are in the studio? So yes and no. So I have a lot of tabs open at all times. Same. Okay. And so what I really need is a team to help me organize those. Yeah. I'm a creative, like I said, the faucet. And they're all really fun and great and cool ideas to me. But these tabs are open, right? And so I just need a little consolidation, a little steering. Yep. because I'm a horse. I'm a mare and I'm running fast. But I need that team to help. I need that team. And you were that team. I came to Christian with this idea, but I wish I could PowerPoint it and put it all down on paper and here's how the flow goes.

35:30But I just go, here's like six or eight ideas I have and it's kind of here's the rough draft of it help yeah yeah and I just know that

35:43Justin Tranter:he can do it where do you guys feel like do you remember a moment in either one of the videos where it felt like one of you needed to be pushed whether it was you know in either side of the collaboration where it was like all right to get the best thing you've got to get Katie here or to get the best thing you had to get Christian there do you guys remember any moments because a lot of people who watch this love the actual details of collaboration so any sort of like you gotta show up you gotta be like able to be more on time which is something i'm constantly working on and your crew has to move yeah we gotta fast too absolutely and you gotta be super precise about like did i get the shot okay moving on yeah i don't like to waste believe in yourself i don't like to waste time like once i know i have it we're moving on to the next shot yeah and i gotta trust that he has it.

36:31Right. But as far as pushing, I don't know. I mean, I would think back to, I remember we were doing the band-aids video and it was early incubation of that idea. And I remember kind of, we had the conversation about, it should feel like one day. Remember I was like, let's just do the one look into the one day. And it was like, cause I think the, the relatability, cause obviously the personal, like the touch that you were bringing to the story, I was like, but for everybody else, I always try to find how can we pull the audience and put them in your shoes and it was like this idea of just a mom trying to get through the day and I was like if it feels like one day then that's the relatability for everybody and that's where I always try to like pull those little things but I mean I don't really have to push her I don't think it's I think it's very much a genuine relationship in that sense.

37:11We're sharpening each other's irons with when we're with each other I feel that. Yeah I always try to be collab like I have a saying that I always say is like there's no bad ideas right so it's like some people like to be like no this it has to be this it has to be that like I think everything's on the table and then I always like the challenge of you could say the wildest thing to me like let me I'll just say let me try to figure it out and I'll try to plug and play and make sense of it and that's usually like a lot of what the things are um but I do remember um when we were doing I think it was yeah it was band-aids and it was like I think it was the last day shooting and or it was the first day and you were like wow we're really here like sawing a brand I'm really doing it and like that was one of the initial ideas that you gave me.

37:52In the tree, yeah. And I was like, yeah, what do you mean? I was like, that's the idea you gave me. And she's like, yeah, but we're really doing it. I was like, well, that's my job is to like, listen to you. But I showed up and I saw that tree prop and I was so turned on. Because I didn't have to go through an approval process of picking fucking different trees.

38:11Justin Tranter:Different barks. From different studio houses, you know, different barks. I didn't have to go through, you know. less micromanaging yeah yeah and that filters from that filters from her down to me and you know my crew i work a lot of same people because i'm not a huge micromanager i like to trust that people have good taste and you accrue that over a career and then like that filters through you know why the magic comes to where it is you know it's not a one man band or one woman band or anything it's a good buddy community for sure when you're writing the song do you start seeing the video in the writing or is it always different for you it depends sometimes i do but for this particular one for watch it burn i had it the idea come to me and like the quickest download as i was being stretched backstage it just dropped wow and it's interesting when you're physical when you're releasing your body yeah and you're releasing those toxins you're creating space for other things yep i feel like when you're physical that's when you get your best ideas like nobody's like go on a hike go on a hike i agree yeah go on a hike go into nature yeah go into that oxygen go into yeah do you feel like when you when you were younger and would just like hear a song would you like start imagining videos or how did how did this creative process start it's funny because it always this is a question that always comes up as a music video director but like i wasn't a fan of music videos in the sense of like just a fan boy watching living on tRL i mean i appreciated them but i was like you're that means you're our age yeah i was uh i was very much i mean yeah pre-youtube all that stuff but i was always like more in the film world like you know that's where a lot of my inspiration comes i think that's why if you look at a lot of my work I try to tell stories.

40:05It always leads back to that. And maybe it's because I'm not really grabbing from music videos as much as I'm grabbing from movies. And that kind of leaks into my work. Yes. You love all the movies you're up on. Very much. I'm not a huge, like I was never a music video. And later in life, it's found me. Like I obviously went and there was videos that I remember appreciating that I'm like, oh, you know, like had to look back who made it or stuff like that. But it wasn't the, you know, the starting point for me. And it's funny because I'm a music video director and people always ask, I'm like, yeah, it wasn't really something that found me in that way.

40:36But every artist needs something different. Yeah. You know, it's, it's really tough to have one way of working, you know? I mean, I agree. I mean, a lot of, I mean, I remember how I initially stumbled into it. I was like always, I was a kid with a camera from like eight years old running around with my neighbors, making little films and doing that. That's once I got into high school, it kind of led into the things going on there, skateboard videos, everything like that. Yeah. And then when When I graduated, it was like I didn't have the best grades. I didn't have, you know, my parents didn't have money to send me to college or anything.

41:08So it was like, you've got to figure something out. And it was either let the dream die or find a way to get in. And so I met like local artists. Put some infrastructure to that. Yeah, like met local artists in the area. And they were like, hey, you want to shoot a music video? I was like, I've never thought about shooting a music video. And then I started doing it, got better at it. And I was like, oh, it's kind of a way to get play, you know, like film school. Can I just say one thing, though? The real interesting part of this story is that you decided. Absolutely. And once you decide, that's when stuff starts actually happening.

41:37I agree. You can't be wishy-washy. Yeah. You have to decide.

41:41Justin Tranter:Well, I think also what's so important too is letting, like, you know, my first dream was to be a rock star and that didn't happen in the way I wanted, but I... I'm sorry, I'm in a mansion right now. Well, when... There are markers of wealth everywhere. When the doors opened for me to write songs with and for other people, I was like, fuck it, I'm running through that door. Even though I wanted to be on stage, if that's not happening at 30 fucking three was dropped for my fourth record deal, I was like, fuck it, let me run through that door. How fast can you pivot? Exactly. And so for you, music videos weren't the dream, but when that door opened, you said, let's fucking go.

42:26Justin Tranter:And it led me here. Yeah. So like I think that's the thing I always lean to people is like you kind of have to be dumb confident yourself. Right. It's like I always tell people I'm like I I never get caught up on the journey of like where I'm like, how do I get there? It's like there's alternate avenues and sometimes you wander down a path and it leads you to this door. But ultimately, you know, yeah, you get the first part of the word confident. Con. you have to con yourself you have to con yourself into actually showing up I looked at it and I was like oh you want me to shoot this video in the hood in Miami at like 2pm on a Tuesday like this is film school yeah okay and I'm doing all these things myself and like me getting in that car with Katie in the car wash is because oh I've been in way sketchier worse situations and I enjoy it and like honestly it makes me feel alive we're talking about like Like, to me, the daily life as a creative, I feel more like I'm getting through my days when I'm not working in that sense.

43:29Like, I mean, granted, I love my family, I enjoy my family, but when I'm not creating in some capacity, I'll go, like, somewhat insane in a way. Like, I have to do. You need an outlet. Yeah. We all need outlets. And your first original question is, like, did I write treatments? Not so much in my younger days, but, like, before I made it as a director, I would just find tracks and, like, fill my days with just, like, let me write a music video of this, never knowing the management i would never send them to anywhere but like for me i would exercise the muscle of creating in that capacity once i knew music videos was a wheelhouse and i don't do it as much anymore but like at early days i for sure he's booked guys don't call him don't call him he's he's on the next the my next question that i ask every episode you've already answered

44:10Justin Tranter:katie which is i say what is the piece of art that like ruined your life in the sense of like oh fuck now i have to be an artist and for you it was jagged little pill was there a film that you saw was there like uh anything that was like oh fuck i have to get a camera now i mean there's so many films i mean in the music video world i think i would say the music video that like probably sparked me to be interested uh was like kind of found it later it was like david fincher's freedom 90 video that he did it was just like an iconic video with george michael yeah george michael um and like something about that video was just so tastefully done it felt like a blend of like a pure, a pure timestamp of what the culture was in that moment.

44:53And then I realized like music videos could be that and they're like time capsules, right? Like you look back at a music video and, uh, and I always think like whatever I try to do, I tried to always be intentional with that. Like, Oh, this could be something that people look back on 30 years from now with a, you know, a timestamp of what was relevant in culture and all those things. So like that was where it kind of triggered for me. I was like, Oh, this could be really fun. And music videos still, I mean, as I've grown into the different layers of commercials and stuff, you still, I still come back to music videos because it's the most free form of, I think, expression in that way where like you're usually working hand on hand in hand with just a great artist and you don't have so much outside influence, right?

45:32There's not a team of people that are like breathing down. You're not corporate. Exactly. It's still like, hey, we could do whatever we want. Yeah. It could just be kicking the can like you're in the studio. It's like nobody's really, there's not a whole lot of outside influence there. And I think that's where like i know people say oh music videos aren't as relevant anymore but like to me they

45:50Justin Tranter:are very much still relevant and now when one cuts through it's even more exciting because it's not there isn't a whole channel dedicated to it anymore it's not that they're not relevant it's the attention span absolutely we have so many things peeling eyes really it's the attention economy right okay and we're fatigued yeah i'm tired yeah i just want to lay in bed yeah go out hiking, right? But the truth is, is that when a real video works and you're telling a real story and it resonates, it cuts through period, end of story. It's just that also like storytelling has gone micro, right? And you don't need all of it if you can cut through.

46:31There's an abundance of information now. Too much, yeah. Beyond, but it's up to our boundaries to ingest it. Yeah. That's the thing is we've lost our boundaries.

46:43Justin Tranter:Yeah. With ingesting it. Like you, like someone was like, Oh God, I just like, like my, I can't put my phone down. I was like, you can't put your phone down. Who owns you? Right. Well, the phones are built to be addictive, but right. You have to break the addiction. You have to break the addiction with it. People want to feel something, right? But they want to feel something for sure. If the storytelling telling cuts through that's when you win yeah when because at the end of band-aids there are um you are setting the stage for watch it burn yes um we're blowing everything up we're blowing everything up how um have you gotten have you worked on like a a two video i'm almost i mean how long was ari's video i was gonna say that's probably the closest comp is like we did the we can't be friends video and then we turned it into like a lore for the album made a massive short film yeah that was like it was kind of funny like we built it off one video and then we're like i guess we'll just keep building going so like all these creative story to tell i mean tons of story but it's like the creative choices i made in like the set design something ended up becoming this like massive world that we ended up building off of and i think at the time i didn't know that but um you know it definitely was kind of a sequel but this was a little bit different in the sense I think when you look at these two videos side to side, even the visual language that how we shot them and you could tell one if you put them side by side, they they're each telling their own flavor of the story.

48:14You know, I think that's the kind of cool thing. It's not like we use the same lenses, the same lighting, the same like they each had their own path, but they live within the same space. Yeah. Yeah. They're sisters.

48:22Justin Tranter:Yeah. How deeply are you thinking of like in Band-Aids? there were all these little Easter eggs for your fans, whether it was the Daisy or all these different things. How far ahead are you thinking about those pieces of storytelling that then you want the director to help you execute? In my whole life, always I'm thinking five years ahead. Wow. Always. And I know where I want to go next, I think so. I have to respect the process to get there. Yep. And expect, I have to also understand that the universe is my co-driver. Yeah. I can't just take the wheel completely. I have to let something bigger than me, something that has some effect on my life, something that created a fucking flower because I cannot create that.

49:09So they are ultimate creator, right? Right. I need to make space for them to allow, right? So I have to be in flow. I have to be malleable. I have to be able to change. Don't get so fucking stuck on everything. When you're stuck in stiff, it doesn't work for you as an artist. For me, it doesn't work. But for me, what I can control is, yes, I do put signals in everything I've done. My whole catalog is a signal. I'm telling a story, whether I'm conscious of it or not. I'm telling my story, whether I'm conscious of it or not. But I am signaling the whole time. yeah before easter eggs was a buzzword that they created okay now it's now it's a it's a it's a way to like use marketing right it's a marketing thing yep sure so i do put a little of it because i do know where i'm going next yes now is that fully fleshed out yeah not sure but i i know the next step i'm gonna take yeah and so this watch it burn actually like i didn't need to do a whole ep of this feeling.

50:17Justin Tranter:Yep. But I needed to touch it and circle it. Right. Yeah. And now I'm moving on and I'm going to be writing something that is going to represent what I'm feeling now. Yeah. When you told me that, that you were like, it's this like little two song story and then it's onto a new feeling. Yeah. Because I have, I have to process it. This is my therapy. This is my art. This is the way I get it out. If I don't, it's going to come back in some other way. Yeah. Right. so I have to process it yeah do you find it is it inspiring for you when an artist is like very clear about the vision does that does that help you in your process but how hard is it like when the vision is either unrealistic hello hello I'm talking to you or um it's not good How do you tell them that?

51:09Or how do you support that? Well, I think it's, I mean, well, if it's, I don't think I've really been in that situation with not good ideas too bad. I mean, at least maybe earlier in my career, like where you're dealing with artists trying to find themselves in a way, like you definitely experienced that to a degree. And sometimes you just have to bang your head against the wall and be like, it is what it is. But I've found myself in a place in my career where I've had the privilege to work with artists who know who they are, know where they want to be. and you're just kind of, like I mentioned earlier, it was like in early conversations, you could figure out how you're meant to be their collaborator in that sense, right?

51:43It's like what they're expecting out of you. And I actually enjoy, I always tell people, I'm like, I feel like my best videos have always come from the place where somebody's met me halfway. It's never really been from the spot of like, hey, you've done all this great stuff and like whatever you think, you know, like granted I'm a creative person, but like I do, I could point you to, if somebody said these are your best videos, I guarantee they're the ones that have had the influence. I mean, my video that brought me back to you constantly was the Doja video. Which one? Demons? Yeah, Demons. I was scared of it.

52:19And that was, to be honest, it was... But it's amazing, but I was scared of it. But I felt something. And that was a video that had a different creative initially. And through me and her talking, my movie influencer, I was just like, hey, rather than tell this other story, you're going again. Like it was something way more art, like high fashion. And I was like, well, what if we just kind of like made an ode to like 80s horror, but also brought in other influences. And she started going down the road of like poltergeist. Then she loved all the backroom stuff. And we kind of found it like in a weird organ.

52:52And I think that's the bit. It's like you give me a little bit of a headway. I can find myself in that pond a little bit and then we find it together. And that's always the best place, you know, I think. Like, I mean, there was only one other, I mean, with a video like Industry Baby, right? It was like, Lil Nas is so like hands, like he had a vision for it. But I remember that original treatment he sent me was like, the video that we made was like the first half of the video. And then it like led to the whole action after they escaped prison. And then the lay boy would come to me. They're like, this is going to be like a four day shoot.

53:23Can you find a way to, you know, do something? And I tightened all the nuts and bolts. And I remember it came down to the scene. we were having lunch and uh he was like we didn't he had this like lunch table scene and I was like it doesn't feel like impactful like that we're gonna do this I was like we need something that's gonna like really rip and grab somebody I was like what do you feel about if we did a scene in the shower where like everybody's naked and I was like at first he was like no I can't do it and then we started eating and like the food like the food came and then he was like all of a sudden randomly we're in the middle chatting I was kind of bummed because I'm like man that video that was going to make the video and all of a sudden he's like let's do the idea and i was like yes and like i was kind of in my head i was like that's the video that's the difference between 500 million and 50 million views is something like that that really becomes memorable and that's like a thing not that there's not other scenes in it that are great but it's like it had something that was like oh it's people had to go get so i always feel like i've been blessed with great collaborators

54:18Justin Tranter:is what i would say katie can you remember a moment whether it was a video director or a co-writer or a producer who made a bold suggestion like that and you were like no and then came around to it and it ended up being the right choice? Oh God, I'm always the one coming in with the crazy ideas. And they're like, oh, there she is. Nurse! Nurse, she's out again. She's out again. Yeah, she wants to fall off a tree again. Yeah. Yeah. The scorpion tail. Yep. Oh yeah, the scorpion tail. No, so in Watch It Burn, there is... In Watch It Burn, I am wrestling with my darkness. and I use it and I'm pissed and it comes out as my scorpion tail being a super Scorpio.

55:03Yeah. And knowing I always have to keep that in balance. I just use that metaphor. But then I, I end up at church where my tail disintegrates and I get baptized again or I get baptized.

55:19Justin Tranter:Yeah. And I make a conscious decision to choose the light. Yeah. Again. Yeah. Whatever that looks like for you. Yeah. But feeling and I never look. I don't typically feel like a victim. You can hear it in my songs. I don't resonate with that. Yeah.

55:44But last year was pretty tough.

55:47Justin Tranter:Yeah. And it would have been easy for me to fall into that weird victim triangle. Yeah. Right. so instead of falling into woe is me, I just was like, okay, let's just feel this fucking pain. Let's feel this pain. Let's feel this anger and let's move on. Let's learn from it also. Let's get some feedback from it. Um, let's apply it. Let's learn from it. Feedback on my anger, everyone's thoughts. On, on, on, on my choices, you know, the amount of pressure and conversation that has had an energy that is directed towards myself and my peers is unfathomable right to be able to carry right and you must be strong or you must have a constitution in you that you have developed in order to in order to not fall apart.

56:48Justin Tranter:Right. And to keep going out there and trying in public just to keep on living life. Yeah. Or even serving art. Yeah. So, but it's important. It's important. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like the visual helps and we'll just do watch it burn specifically. Do you think the visual helps really helps you tell another level of story outside of the song? Yeah. Because His Watch It Burn may be a little bit more specific, but the video is just about keeping my darkness in line, laughing at my shadow, laughing at my shadow and making a conscious decision to choose the light, especially in a dark, critical, negative, divisive, dangerous, fearful world that we're living in.

57:43Yeah. It's to go back to high road.

57:46Justin Tranter:Yeah. I mean, it's really when you think about a pop song, right? And we all work in pop music in our different ways. Like, think about what the level of collaboration from you and I writing, from the people that we produced it with, to mixing it, to mastering it. Oh, my gosh. To then how many people work on a video. It's really like the amount of collaboration that goes into one pop single is pretty, it's the first time we're having a video director on the show. Unless you're Ed Sheeran. So my brain is, well, I mean, we can't all be Ed Sheeran. I know, God bless him. God bless him. I'm coming back as Ed Sheeran next week.

58:27I don't, I can wear cargo pants, no makeup.

58:30Justin Tranter:Yeah, just play guitar and sing your ass off. Yeah. But yeah, we haven't had a video director on. So it's like, the first time really going, even though I make pop songs all day, having this conversation is really insane to think about how many people are in the business of show to go back to the beginning of in that in that well everybody to move towards a comment i mean that's always one of the things that i always fell in love with with filmmaking is it's it's not something you can do by yourself in any capacity right it's like even if you're good with the camera like you need some subject right and whether or not you're just shooting nature like you still need an existence of something yeah You can't just shoot a white frame of, I mean, maybe you can and call it art, but I don't think that's really grabbing people.

59:14So I think, you know, that's why I always give credit to, you know, like I just won an award the other night for director of the year. Right. And like I had to I had to think I told you I said it's a singular award. But to me, a director is only as good as who supports the director. And there's so many departments that go into it. And yes, I might be the one just making sure that ship stays on the course. but like if anything falls out of line, like, you know, the tree wasn't right. And you walk up and be like, this tree sucks. It could tumble and everything sacrifices. And that leads all the way back to, you know, having a good, like you mentioned somebody at home that holds you down, you know?

59:52And like, I had to thank my wife in the same capacity. I'm like, I'm only able to do what I do. Cause you fill those other spaces of my life that, you know, I have a place to come home to and be creative. And so I think like directing as a whole is about that. like collaborating upon all aspects of it. You know, with every department, like I'm having calls with VFX people talking about textures of tails and you got to be able to have that. But as you build your team, then you feel confident. Absolutely. You know, but you still need to have, you need to be the overlord. Absolutely. You know, you need to be on, looking at all the things.

1:00:25Yeah. Do not master license your life away. No way. Yeah. But the idea that these things are always floating above our heads and we have to pull them out of like the thin air and then bring them to a tangible place is always the fascinating idea. And it starts with, you know, y 'all in the room, sound's going, the feeling of that day, the energy in the space all leads to a thing that then bleeds into her doing yoga or you're saying stretching and then the idea hits you like a lightning bolt. But if you're not susceptible to energy and influence in your environment, like ideas and things slip past you if you don't have a good filter for it.

1:01:06I always tell people, you have to listen to the whispers behind you and all that stuff. I tell people to live life because so much of my creation has come from witnessing, not sitting in a room. You can get inspired by watching an old couple eating dinner together and holding each other. And you're just like, that makes me feel something that could then influence something creative. So I always say, get out and live. Live. So suggest a lyric that might be crazy. That's awful.

1:01:31Justin Tranter:Right. Like a trash, put it in a bridge lyric. We go, whenever we're in, for me, whenever I'm in a session, we're like, hmm, we'll put that one in a bridge. That's going to be a great bridge. That's going to be a great bridge. For a bonus track. That's going to be. We call that top pocket. Speaking of Great Bridges, though, you have all these iconic songs from your back catalog going crazy viral right now. One of them, Thinking of You, has one of the best bridges ever. How does that feel for this whole new generation of people discovering these songs of yours that your super fans already know and love, but now there's a whole new fan base finding this music?

1:02:21Well, first of all, I love, love, love my fans. They are a true community. They're creatives themselves. They're so smart. They're like family. They fight amongst each other sometimes. We call them Katie Katz and Katie Rats. But they're an incredible community. And they have really formed over the years, over almost 20 years. People have met each other, been married because they've met each other in the community. best friendships, all of this ripple effect. And I'm just so grateful that they keep showing up and supporting. I mean, they're tired. They've been through the trenches. But they're strong.

1:03:10They're so strong and so beautiful and so thoughtful too.

1:03:17But as far as things happening now, I've always said that time's going to tell my story.

1:03:24Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. And I truly believe it. Yeah. I think that it is kind of the coolest thing about being artists in whatever capacity, director, songwriter, pop star and songwriter. And that like, as long as it's all meant to be, as long as you don't quit. Don't quit. Because if you quit, then it's not meant to be. The better it gets. Yeah. So it's like. Don't quit. But those of us who are old like me have known for almost 20 years that Thinking of You is a perfect song. Oh, please. Thank you. We all, come on, it's in the songwriter community. That song is talked about a lot, a lot. And so now to see this whole new generation falling in love with this perfect song.

1:04:04I'm so grateful for it. And, you know, music is magic.

1:04:09Justin Tranter:Yeah, it really is. And magic is timeless. Absolutely. There you go. So, okay, so to end every episode, we play a game. I'm out. I mean, honestly, that's fine. It's called gag or drag. Gag means you love it. Drag means you don't love it. And we've introduced a third. And if we have to explain that to you, why are you watching? You never know. I'm just trying to be inclusive in case you don't know the lingo. You're correct. Or you can also say meh if you're like, I just don't really care. Okay. Okay, so gag or drag, cutting the best line or scene in a song slash video because it doesn't fit the overall concept.

1:04:46I would say drag to the idea of that, but I haven't had to deal with it.

1:04:50Justin Tranter:I've had to deal with that. We've dealt with that. We did deal with that. One of my favorite lyrics, you were like, can't do it, it's too much. Yes, in Band-Aids. Yeah. I changed two significant. significant is actually one before you i changed two significant lines because i knew that it would be too potent yeah so gag you love cutting cut the line yeah gag it yeah gag or drag a session or production meeting where everyone agrees too quickly yeah drag yeah see i love to agree to everything quickly let's just keep let's just keep rocking and fixed it later. Conversations where a lot of the magic is though.

1:05:32Yeah. Friction. Friction is important. Oh my God. I don't want sycophants. I don't want to. Look, art takes time. Art transcends time. I don't want to. I got to take time with that a little bit. You got to have the clay on the wheel. We are so busy. We are so busy, busy. Product, productive, productive. Are we making good shit though? Yeah. Are we, are you making good shit or are you just being productive?

1:05:57Justin Tranter:Right. Well, it depends on the day. Well, how much good stuff comes from stepping away from it for a bit? Oh, my gosh. Step away, be like, oh, it's sick. Walk away, come back to it, and you're like, okay, this could be even better. I mean, it happens all the time. Yeah. Yeah, but this is really important. The tension is really important. I agree. Well, you actually just answered the next one, which was gag or drag, a session or production meeting that feels like conflict but leads to the best idea. A hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. Live, live, live, live. Um, gag or drag, people comparing every new era to your biggest era.

1:06:28I wouldn't say gag or drag. I'd say you just don't understand. Right. I don't think it's necessarily, it doesn't bother me. I climbed Everest. I saw the view. Yeah. Next. Fabulous.

1:06:41Justin Tranter:You know? Yeah. Gag or drag, a background extra accidentally becoming an iconic character of the video. I love that. Love, live, live, live, live, live. Do not replace extras with fucking AI. You're doing yourself a disservice. Yes. You're doing yourself a disservice. Can either one of you think of a moment where you're like, oh my God, this person wasn't supposed to be a big part of the video, but they just like were so magical. That's why the algorithm and the data is also a huge disservice just to follow that. Right. You can't. You're going to miss the magical mistakes. You're going to miss the magic of life, the beauty of life.

1:07:18Yeah, I didn't realize anything about the moderator. Like memes are great. Like moments that could become like laughed upon, built upon in that way. And like if you're lucky enough to have videos form them, then like. Right. I mean like Left Shark. Left Shark is whatever Left Shark is. I did the Super Bowl. I didn't fall. I secretly fell. You'll have to like look at the tape really well, but you'll never catch it. I didn't fall. You know, my clothes all went on, you know, correctly. So there wasn't anything for anyone. I didn't like hit a wrong thing. I aced the fucking test. So the next day, everybody's like, it was a shark.

1:07:57It was the shark on the left to be specific. And they don't know how to dance in that huge felt puppet costume. I'm like, all right, fine. Take it. Have it. Have fun with that.

1:08:12Justin Tranter:But it was iconic. It was iconic. And those moments created some fun comedy, and I use them to this day in the show. Well, I feel like when you go to the meme thing, if anyone thinks they're going to plan what the memeable moment is, they're never going to. So it is the magical mistakes that end up making things. The Oscars just tried it this year, and the Leo meme, and I don't think it went. You can't make a meme. No, you can't. I mean, Bad Bunny aced it. He also was just being his authentic self. Absolutely. And it's just about that authenticity through and through that keeps showing up. That's what really aces it.

1:08:46Justin Tranter:Okay, gag or drag, getting emotionally attached to a prop. You mean like as if they're trying to cut it? I mean, I've definitely stolen my fair share of props from videos I've done. Yeah. You mean emotionally attached, like bringing it home? Bringing it home or being like, well, Morgan, do you want to explain your question? I mean, weren't you just talking about how much you love that tree? Oh, yeah. We planted it at your house. I think it's a gag. Burn it. Watch it burn. Here's the thing about stuff. Don't let me go off on a tab about stuff. Do you own it? Or does it own you? And how much energy does it take up in your mind?

1:09:35And how many resources does it take? Everything is energy. is it energy give or an energy suck? And so this stuff, even boiling it down to these accolades.

1:09:48Justin Tranter:I mean, Morgan, look at what a beautiful conversation came from the prop question. I do take props, though. And you were turned on by the tree. Look, I do have a warehouse at LAX full of California dreams tour bullshit. I finally I had this big residency in Las Vegas that had these larger than life props. Toilets. I finally let go of all of them. I was like, we're not keeping this anymore because the cost to store it is more than if I wanted to reproduce it. You have to open your own Disney World? I keep all of my costumes. Those are all really important to me. So I have so many costumes but no, it's not props.

1:10:35Yeah. The trees, no.

1:10:37Justin Tranter:Yeah, I think I'm going to skip to my last question because we got so deep on the prop question, which was amazing. What did I even say in this podcast? I blacked out. It's going to be great. I've got approval of the audience. Yeah, you've got approval of the audience. It's my first one. Last. This is your first podcast ever? Well, back in this era. Okay, so Art of Collaboration. what for each of you do you feel like could be the best advice you could give someone about collaborating and if it is inspired if the advice is inspired by something that you've maybe fucked up once and you learned how to be a better collaborator what do you think you would tell if someone said if you had one minute to give advice on how to be a good collaborator i would say it starts with being a good listener because i think if you're any type of collaboration you You can't be too steadfast on your own ideas.

1:11:31So I think it starts with listening and understanding, like I said, it's like where your piece in the puzzle is and not being too egotistical of your feelings or anything, because I think collaboration, you have to meet that other person's feelings, emotions, and kind of, depending on in any way you're collaborating. Like mine specifically is like, how do I bring it to a visual realm? But it always starts with listening and feeling the emotions of what we're supposed to be doing. and that would be my advice.

1:12:00Justin Tranter:How do you, Katie, before you give your answer, I have a follow-up question of when the art is about your life, because such an important part of collaboration is listening and not letting too much of your ego in the conversation. When the art is about your life, when you know people are going to pick it apart, when it's your face on the single cover, how do you keep yourself going, no, I want to work with these people for a reason. how do I chill the fuck out and listen when it is about your life? Really important, obviously listening, really important, no ego, really important is yes and. So not saying you're a dickwad for that stupid idea, but just going yes and.

1:12:49Justin Tranter:Yeah. Those are magical words, especially in collaboration. Yep. Agreed. Because people feel heard and supported. Yep. And then you're also bringing an additional idea to the table, which could be a dumbass dickwad idea. Yeah. But you at least get to have this dialogue. Yeah. We've gone so far in the world. We're not even having dialogue. Yeah. But to get back to dialogue, you must have respect. Yeah. For the other. Yeah. The biggest no for me when trying to co-write, the biggest no is someone just saying no without a solution. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yes and that you never come across that barrier.

1:13:31Justin Tranter:If someone says no without a solution, it's just like, well, the day is over then. Yeah. How do we go? I love that. Yes and is, I think without that, you can't collaborate. And without listening, how do you even start? Yeah. And you just take, once you've both taken ego out of it, it's like you're now having a conversation where you know, like, I could say the dumbest idea and we're going to laugh about it. And it might, I would say like, I've had many times where the dumb idea leads to the best idea. It always does. That's why I say there's no bad ideas because creating is a weird roadmap that you can't even, it's as complex as the human brain with neurons, right?

1:14:06It's like, you can't even try to think about how some of this stuff comes together. And even I look back into the videos and I'm like, how the fuck did I come up with that? Like, I don't remember how it was like, how did you come up with like Doja Cat being a spider on the web? I'm like, I don't know. I don't remember sitting there writing a treatment. I was just like blacked out and like found me. Now you connected with your creator. I mean, yeah. But I mean, just in the sense of like, sometimes it, yeah, it goes through you and you just, next thing you know, you look back and you're like, oh shit.

1:14:29Yeah. It came out. Yeah. And I think a lot of that is collaborating with the energy around you too, right? It's about understanding energy. You have to. Yeah. You have to be able to.

1:14:39Justin Tranter:Yeah. For both of you, for all of us, we all worked on this song, Watch It Burn, that's coming. um what what do you hope if people take away one feeling from the song and the video as a piece of art together what do you hope the one thing they take away from it is two things can exist at once chaos and creation and usually after chaos there is creation yeah and that it is all about balance I was out of balance being love and light and now I'm tipping the scale just a little bit and so I hope that other people can find their balance their authentic, constructive balance and fucking take a bat to a pillow better out than in better out than in I mean I think just with any video It's like the overall message, if it's received.

1:15:40And, you know, I always say it's like I was trying to think of the message that you're trying to tell and how you put that into the audience's shoes. Right. And I think you could always tell when a video comes out, when a message is heard or or if they're getting the gist of what you're putting down. And I felt like with Band-Aids, it was pretty like a lot of what we were trying to do. The emotions were felt. It was well received. and that was like a great feeling where we're like oh like look at we took we took this chance the swing and i think whenever you're an artist you have to be incredible putting art in the world is an invulnerable thing and you especially when it's authentically you 100 it's easy to do algorithm art fuck off yeah but putting it i'll go art it's easy to do but to put the human experience that cannot be duplicated or replicated or synthesized yeah into your art that's tough

1:16:32Justin Tranter:That's tough. And I'd say most of the time when it misses the mark for people, they're either just too closed off internally in ways that maybe it's just they're not ready to receive that kind of message. Or, you know, I mean, luckily, I feel like we're pretty intentional with what we do and the details that we put into it. We are understanding kind of how to move. Like I said, it's captaining the ship between all of us. We're doing it musically, the lyrics and singing, and then the visual and all flowing the path together. You know what I mean? I'm just very excited to remind my 15-year-old self that feminine anger is the reason I started making music in the first place.

1:17:14Justin Tranter:And so to get to be a part of this song with you, which is just like such a great example of feminine anger, is really awesome for me. Feminine fire is productive. Very productive. And constructive. Yeah. And necessary. Sometimes you have to clear the path in order to go down the next journey. That's really what I'm doing is I'm clearing the path. I think that's the perfect button, my friends. Clear the path, babies. Christian and Katie, thank you. Thanks, Christian. You're the best. I'm so excited for everyone to see. Watch it burn. Thank you. Watch Unfamous on Spotify. Subscribe for no ads. I'll see you there.