In short
Linda Perry and director/cinematographer Don Hardy discuss their documentary about Perry’s life and grief, how collaboration works through conflict, and why vulnerability and honesty matter in music and filmmaking. They connect Perry’s songwriting process to documentary ethics (small crews, observing, protecting subjects) and describe a key raw scene that stayed in the film.
Guests (backgrounds)
Linda Perry is the lead singer/songwriter of Four Non Blondes (“What’s Up”) and a songwriter/producer who wrote “Beautiful” for Christina Aguilera. Don Hardy is a cinematographer and director who filmed and directed documentaries, including Citizen Penn about Sean Penn’s Haiti earthquake relief efforts.
Key claims
Collaboration succeeds when ego is left outside; conflict can strengthen trust. Documentary subjects should have discussion without editorial control. Vulnerability breaks down guards and builds trust; honesty is the engine of both songs and films.
Notable examples
Perry resisted making the documentary until she trusted Hardy; a major conflict involved Bono’s sparse end-title recording for Citizen Penn. The film’s closet scene (recorded via phone/iPad) was kept after Perry realized its emotional power. Perry describes grief after her mother’s illness/death and a “jam” moment that helped produce a song and later an album.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroducing Linda Perry and Don Hardy
0:03 to 0:25
Linda and Don introduce each other, discussing their backgrounds and collaboration.
“So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for.”
Introducing Linda Perry and Don Hardy
1:16 to 4:24
Linda and Don introduce each other, discussing their backgrounds and collaboration.
“And as a fellow songwriter, a rock doc about another songwriter is really exciting.”
The Impact of Music
4:24 to 6:41
Discussion about the influence of songs and their emotional weight.
“You know, and he made a whole documentary on me about seeing this chaos and found the story in the through line.”
Documentary Development Process
6:41 to 11:15
Linda and Don share insights into the making of Linda's documentary.
“I mean I don't think I look at myself as that grandiose.”
Navigating Conflict and Trust
11:15 to 14:01
Exploring the tensions and trust-building moments during the filmmaking process.
“And he's like, you understand the movie's about you.”
The Journey to Collaborate with Bono
14:01 to 17:47
Linda Perry shares her experience of working with Bono and the challenges faced in collaboration.
“And then finally I was just like, yes, of course, come.”
The Art of Songwriting and Vulnerability
17:47 to 19:59
Linda discusses the importance of vulnerability and trust in songwriting collaborations.
Encouraging Podcast Engagement
19:59 to 20:38
The hosts ask listeners to engage with the podcast to help spread its message.
“yeah you know hello my little unfamous friends so um the thing about the algorithm little miss algorithm is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it.”
Balancing Personal Stories in Documentaries
20:39 to 23:08
The discussion dives into how documentarians balance the sharing of personal stories while protecting subjects.
“actually so interesting, especially to hear you talk about that specifically.”
The Power of Raw Moments in Film
23:08 to 28:01
Linda reflects on a powerful and emotional moment captured in her documentary that left her feeling exposed.
“is too scared to say something or too scared to keep something in the edit.”
Show all 26 chapters
The Power of Vulnerability in Film
28:01 to 29:52
Explore how raw and uncomfortable moments can lead to powerful storytelling.
“And I was so overwhelmed by it that I had a couple notes on something else.”
Reflections on Personal Trauma and Art
29:52 to 31:48
Discuss the relationship between personal trauma and creative expression.
“You're normally in the driver's seat of getting people to show their vulnerability for getting to people to emotionally expose yourself.”
The Emotional Journey of Filmmaking
31:48 to 35:08
Delve into the emotional experiences tied to the documentary-making process.
“And so I watched it one time, I scored it, but I didn't watch it while I was scoring it.”
Navigating Family Dynamics and Illness
35:08 to 37:08
Understand the complexities of family relationships in the face of illness.
“Linda, we hear all the time of when we write a song with someone about something in their life, it helps them heal past it.”
The Creative Process Behind Music Creation
37:08 to 40:36
Learn about the spontaneous nature of creating music in challenging times.
“But I did have one moment of like, God, this is a film right here.”
Saying Yes to New Opportunities
40:36 to 42:00
Discover the importance of embracing new opportunities and experiences.
“Are there things for both of you that you feel like now, whether it's wisdom or success or however you want to look at it, are there things now that you say no to that you wouldn't have said no to in the past?”
Exploring Creativity and Vulnerability
42:00 to 46:00
Learn about the importance of saying yes and the creative process in music and filmmaking.
“Oh, see, I was broke for so long and I'm such a whore that I'm like, yes to everything.”
Collaboration in the Creative Process
46:00 to 51:24
Discover how collaboration can enhance creativity and lead to unexpected results.
“One, you know, I'd never had a song that I wrote alone good enough for anyone to want to put it in a movie or American Idol.”
The Power of Vulnerability in Art
51:24 to 55:59
Understand the significance of vulnerability in storytelling and artistic expression.
“Just because it's showing up country doesn't mean it can't turn into a rock and roll song or a pop song.”
The Power of Gut Instinct in Creativity
56:00 to 1:00:12
Explore how gut instincts influence artistic decisions and creation.
“And people are either frozen or overly reactive.”
Understanding the Writing Process
1:00:12 to 1:01:07
Linda Perry discusses her songwriting process and the spontaneity of creativity.
“I get asked this question all the time and I have an answer ish, but I'm going to ask you, let's just use beautiful.”
Writing 'Get the Party Started'
1:01:07 to 1:03:21
Linda Perry shares the story behind the creation of her hit song and its playful essence.
“And so I literally, like, taking the foot off the gas, hopped out of the car and went to the other side of the room, and I was like, okay, what is that?”
Documentary Filmmaking and Collaboration
1:03:21 to 1:06:34
Don Hardy reflects on the importance of collaboration in documentary filmmaking.
“Don, can you remember a moment in your career where you just like creatively were just like, let's just be fucking dumb and something magical happened?”
Growth Through Collaboration
1:06:34 to 1:10:01
Linda Perry and Don Hardy discuss their views on collaboration and personal growth.
“Because those of us who are fans of you and not lucky to call you a friend, And the hat is iconic.”
Finding Inspiration in Creative Collaboration
1:10:01 to 1:12:42
Learn how collaboration can inspire creativity and personal growth.
“I'm inspired and it's going to take me another 10 years, you know, into creative to, you know, so I'm always learning something new.”
Embracing the Journey of a Creator
1:12:42 to 1:14:13
Discover the importance of embracing life's challenges as part of the creative journey.
“I never, I don't want to be, you know, content.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Justin Tranter:This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for. From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook.
0:32Justin Tranter:turn it up storm has zero sugar and 200 milligrams of caffeine so you can turn that workout up a notch good energy in good energy out energy for life the only time i got really super excited about a song and and i did call it out and i said this is a hit was when i wrote get the party started yeah that was the stupidest fucking song
1:00Justin Tranter:Hello and welcome to Unfamous, a podcast where we talk about the art of collaboration and the unfamous and untold stories into what goes in to making your favorite pop culture moments come to life. I'm very excited about today having you two brilliant people here with us because we've interviewed all different types of collaborators, but we have not interviewed anyone about a documentary before, which I think is so interesting. I'm a huge fucking fan of rock docs. And as a fellow songwriter, a rock doc about another songwriter is really exciting. So instead of the awkward part of podcasts where I just like talk about you guys while you sit here, we use...
1:50Justin Tranter:I'm good with that. Go ahead. We use this moment for you guys to introduce each other to the world and brag about each other instead of me just listing your credits awkwardly. So whoever would like to go first, please introduce everyone watching. So I'm not Don Hardy. And this is Don Hardy. And the reason he's an incredible. well you also he films everything too he's a great cinematographer oh cool and director and a wonderful fly on the wall it's like I can imagine a little fly with a little you know thing the little camera but Don and I worked on this film he he actually brought me into it and called Citizen Penn.
2:42It was about Sean Penn when he went and, you know, just single-handedly scooping up, you know, everybody in Haiti when the earthquake happened. Oh, right. I got a call on, I think it was December 27th. I don't know what year it was. Hey, and it was from guys from the court. Hey, is this Linda Perry? Yes. we hear that you're really great at putting on fundraisers and I because you did the one for the LGBT Center for like seven years and they're like I we heard that you're the person to call and we're in big trouble because we're have this event coming up and we don't have anything and we're wondering if there's any way you could help us out and I'm like you know of course they're telling me what it is and I'm like okay when is it they're like January 3rd and I'm all what it's December you understand it's December 27th right now and you're talking about January 3rd and they're like yeah and I'm like okay Sean Penn fuck it I'm going for it man you know and I get Billie Eilish I get Macy Gray Beck St.
3:49Vincent I think and then we all pulled together and you got um Cat Stevens and he was having a problem coming into the country anyways that's how him and I met and then he offered he said I think you would be really great at scoring and I just put that into the universe I want to score a film and then he said then I think I told you that too I was like oh my god I was just saying I want to score a film yeah anyways that's how we met and then that's all I got but he's a wonderful friend a great director and really really um Don sees the story in the chaos. Yeah. You know, and he made a whole documentary on me about seeing this chaos and found the story in the through line.
4:34Ladies and gentlemen, everyone in between, that's Don. Yeah, Don. Round of applause for Don.
4:40Justin Tranter:Don, introduce Linda to everyone. Does there folk, people that don't know Linda Perry? You know, just in case. Just in case. There are. Okay, okay. Well, I think we all probably started knowing Linda Perry with the band called Four Non Blondes. She was the lead singer and songwriter for. And there's this little song called What's Up that people might recognize. Maybe in a supermarket, like when aisle seven, something like that. Do people send you a lot of copies of people singing this song? Yeah, totally. Because now they send them to me. I think I need to make a movie on just that. All the iPhone recordings, videos I've gotten from people all over the world singing What's Up.
5:27Justin Tranter:Well, I think before I ever met you, someone sent you a video at my sister-in-law's funeral of everyone singing that song. Yes. Yeah. It was... A lot of funerals for some reason. Yeah. Like I get a lot of funerals. It was her favorite song. And I was like, let's just celebrate at the end of the funeral and sing that song. Anyway, I interrupted your introduction. No, no, it's true. So that's how I first knew Linda. And then, as she mentioned, this chance meeting, you know, as all good things come from Sean Penn. We happened to meet there. And we talked about this movie. And I knew of Linda's other work, too, that we shouldn't trivialize in any way.
6:13we're talking songs like Beautiful that she wrote for Christina Aguilera that became huge defining songs somebody stood up we did a Q &A after the screening last night and somebody stood up and said that song has saved a lot of lives and I really thought a lot about that over the past 24 hours really? yeah do you ever think about that? the weight of a song like that that you wrote that it could save lives I mean I don't think I look at myself as that grandiose. I'm not coming from that point of view. I'm just writing a song as clear and honest as I possibly can. And I always think honesty is what helps people.
6:56Yeah.
6:57Justin Tranter:Linda Perry! Thank you! We got the point. Don, when you were like, I think you'd be a great subject for a documentary, what was that? What made you think that I would like to make a movie about you? Well, when we were collaborating on Citizen Penn, It happened, I believe, when we met at that gala that you mentioned. It was the beginning of 2018. So that happened. We started working together. And then perhaps maybe it's 2019, the top of 2019. Anyhow, when we were really in the thick of trying to do the score for it, it was COVID. And so we really couldn't work together that much. I live up in the San Francisco Bay Area.
7:42So we started doing stuff, as I recall, through Zoom, but it wasn't there in the studio. But at least we were forging in that time, you know, a relationship more like a director composer relationship. And then when things started to open up a bit, I did ask, could I come into the studio? And I didn't have a no, I did not say I was making a documentary out of the gate. But but we just started spending time together. And that time turned into me with a camera filming and we start just filming things. And again, spending that time together. And when I look at the film now, all these years later, we're talking six years later, I feel like what I love about the movie is it's a, it feels like a conversation between the two of us.
8:27Yeah. And you hear me off camera at times just having that. Yeah, for sure.
8:33Justin Tranter:Was your goal to, were you trying to make a documentary? Was that the goal? And you're just like, oh, let me start slow and just hang out and film a little bit? Or how did you? My goal was to trick Linda into letting me make a documentary. Okay, great. That's what I was. No, I don't think I had those aspirations out of the gate. But once you spend a little bit of time with Linda and you see the process. Yeah. Hold on. Okay. Don comes to me. So we're filming just, I think it's like kind of just whatever I'm at, you know, with the Equalizer, my organization. and we're out South by Southwest and I do this whole organization for like two days and it's just all girls and it was really great so he filmed that and then there's you know I'm in the studio with you know an artist and he's filming that so nothing really massive is going on but you know so that was the earlier stuff and then I started having stuff going on but he was like hey uh you you know that stuff I've been filming?
9:34Well, I did 30 minute edit, you know, and I'd really like for you to see it. And I refuse to see it. And he's like, I think there's a documentary here. And I have some people that want to back it. And I was shocked. And I was just like, I don't want to hear about it. You know, after my initial shock, I was able to like go, okay, what? But at first I was like, I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to make a documentary.
10:00Justin Tranter:Do you know why you were so resistant? Because I didn't want to do, I thought, you know, I didn't know him enough to know that, you know, I don't want a fluff piece. I'm not looking to glamorize, you know, my very trivial, complex, you know, emotional, you know, fucked up state of mind, you know. So I wasn't looking for anything like that, like, oh, Linda Perry, you know, blah, you know. But then as we went along, I started really liking Don. And we were funny because we'd butt heads, you know, or I was butting his head. But did you just validate that? I am. You know, I was like, because I was just like, you know, it was emotional.
10:46And then shit started happening. And so it was very, very complex for me to wrap myself around it. And then I think I tried to get involved and try to steer it a different way. And then that wasn't working. And I literally had to just let go. And then I had to let go because there was a lot of trauma going on. And then I was done. I was like, okay, you go do the movie you want. Call me when it's done. And he's like, you understand the movie's about you. And I'm like, I get it, but I don't want anything to do with it. And then, I mean, he literally, they had, it was him and, you know, Sean and, and, and, you know, Salinger over at Mercury literally had to drag me in to go watch this thing.
11:34They were like, are you going to show up? We really need you to see this. We need your sign off on this. And I'm like going, oh God.
11:42Justin Tranter:How did you guys, what was the moment, especially for you when you were like, I don't know if I want to do this. what was the exact can you remember the exact moment of like all right i trust you enough to try to just go well i think i just did you know i mean i i think it was because i was having conflict with don a couple times on things i kind of knew i felt like he was like a brother you know i already so it's it i was natural like i felt okay you know going after him you know like Sorry. But, you know, but, you know, I didn't understand, too. And and and, you know, I'm a creative person in trying to understand a world that I don't know, because if I would have had any control over the documentary, it would not be out.
12:31Right. I would have ripped out every vulnerable raw scene in it. And he would have had, you know, maybe me and Kate Hudson for like it would have been a short story about Kate Hudson for five minutes. You know, that was it. And, um, but so to me, I just had to, and I'm just like that. I'm a, I'm a very instinctual person. I have a lot of, you know, I, I ride on my feelings all the time. I mean, that's the only thing I got is to, to, to go on my gut feelings and, and, and I felt I could trust Don immediately. And also he gave me this incredible opportunity to sit and score a film, which I've never done before which was so fun and then it i after that i scored another documentary then i scored a film and then another film so because of him giving me that you know that permission yeah you know it opened up this whole world like oh i can do this yeah thank you universe for bringing him to me so the universe brought him because i asked and he showed up the you know i what we're already
13:37Justin Tranter:seen the podcast is new but we're seeing a lot of people who are actually really trying to learn how to collaborate and when you said like you already had some i can't remember you said conflict or friction with him in the scoring part of it yeah how do you i love that like that made you go oh we had conflict and we got past it yeah that makes me want to trust him enough to make a documentary the conflict was happening while he was in my studio hanging out and filming and i would like there was like just things you know and then i did something really i think i got i think where i where it turned around for me was during citizen pen so i wrote a song for the end title and um and uh don was like well you know who are we gonna get i'm like i'm going after bruce springsteen and he was like yeah you know fuck yeah and you know so i'm like you know i'm balls out i'm going and then i found out no bruce is not going to be available so i'm like going i'm going after Bono then you know so I called Bono's manager and he just laughed at me he's like wow you have a lot of balls you just think that you could just call me and Bono's just going to show up and sing and sing he's like first of all I just have to applaud that and but he's like you know what send me the song yeah you know I'm now I'm just curious and so I send him the song and then I think it was two days later like at 12 or one o 'clock in the morning i get a email and it's a fucking voice memo a bono singing this fucking song with his kids drunk you know like in his living room and it was like oh my fucking god i couldn't believe it i drove to my best friend's house that night and i'm like honking buddy oh my god look at check this out and i'm like playing as you know it's obviously bono you know and anyways and so their whole thing was like okay bono's going to come and sing and but he needs everything really sparse now i'm not i'm not understanding like when an artist says i need nobody there like i'm in that producer songwriter that like i have to protect the artist yeah of course i wasn't thinking so i wasn't allowing don to come and of course he wants to come right it's like fucking bono is gonna sing the song for his song for his 10-year project you know and i'm just like trying to really over protect the situation and i fucked up there i fucked up i should have been protecting him right and i didn't do that I was protecting the artist and what I was being told.
16:22And then finally I was just like, yes, of course, come. And I was a little afraid, like if Dawn and Sean, because Sean there too? Yeah. I was afraid if they were going to go there. Because also I didn't want to think Bono, like I was seizing this opportunity to get all these people in there and get Photoshopped. And I'm like going, okay, whatever. And then he walks in, he doesn't care at all. and he's like totally scared of me he's like i've heard about you you're gonna pull feelings out of me and you know all this stuff and i'm like going okay i got this so you know because it's bono bono's coming to my studio to work with me yeah and i'm a little bit intimidated you know but not because i don't easily intimidate but it was like you know he's he's like the golden god right you know and anyway so i think after i understood my fault in that i think i even called you and said I see where I fucked up.
17:16And I'm so sorry. Of course you're going to be angry at me because it's your film. So that was our first really thing. And then after we got through that, it was like everything else was just easy.
17:28Justin Tranter:Yeah. I mean, what I love so much about that, like people watching, hoping to learn to be better collaborators, is that understanding that getting through that conflict actually makes you so much better collaborators. Instead of throwing your hands up and being like, all right, well, you're upset. I'm upset. Fuck you. that doesn't help a collaboration that ends a collaboration I'm just going to switch to songwriting for a second the most important part is all ego has to be left outside you can't walk in with ego and controlling the situation I never know one lyric I don't know one chord I don't know one thing we're going to do when that artist walks in they have to trust me so i earn their trust by having like an hour conversation yep with them and we just sit and we talk and i'm just like kind of sussing it out finding what's real finding what's bullshit yep and then i lock into you know then i start i guide questions and start bringing them to okay i see where the the real point is and i'll start bringing them to that then the tears will come then i grab the guitar and i'm like it's time and they're like time for what i'm like we're gonna write a song yeah they're like do you have something i'm like no yeah you have it i'm just gonna pull it from you right now and then i'll just start playing chords and they're like well what are we doing i'm like you're gonna ad lib yeah you know and they're like what do you mean i'm like you're gonna open up your mouth and you're just going to talk to me just like we have been for an hour but now we're gonna do it with a melody yeah and me playing guitar and so i'll start it off and right there i have to know i can start it off but then after i started off i have to back off because i'll go all night i'll be i'll come up with five songs like that but i have to back off and then i have to give them the power yeah and that to me is where great collaborations happen it's like because i don't know the state of mind of the artists are they coming in intimidated are they coming in with a purpose are they what are they here for and i have to figure that out yep and then i have to show them that i'm equally as vulnerable yeah and then i give them the power and then once they take that power that's where the collaboration really starts because now we're talking on an equal level yep i'm no longer linda perry the songwriter and they're no longer so and so big famous artists right we become one yeah you know hello my little unfamous friends so um the thing about the algorithm little miss algorithm is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it.
20:16Justin Tranter:So if you follow this podcast, what do the old school YouTubers say? Like, subscribe and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. It's for both of you because it's actually so interesting, especially to hear you talk about that specifically. So much of what you guys are creating is about someone else's personal life, right? Which is what I do as well every day. I'm writing about someone else's personal life.
20:53Justin Tranter:How do you find the balance of sharing, encouraging someone sharing deeply personal things about themselves versus making sure they feel protected? Um, cause I always find that too, like I'll get someone to say, like, put the craziest thing they said and put it in the song. But then I always go, however, my face isn't on the single cover. So if that's too crazy for you, let's talk about it. But how do you guys find that balance of getting really real, but also making sure everyone feels protected? I think the job of a documentarian or the way that I've always approached it is I I'm there to observe and let people go where they want to go.
21:37And whatever way, sometimes you need a big crew to accomplish a certain scene, but my preference is always to do things pretty small. It's typically myself and sometimes just me or very trusted folks that I've been working with for a number of years that I know are cool and won't disrupt things or be loud about, you know, if a microphone dies or something, don't interrupt a moment. Like, let's, we'll figure it out. So I feel like that's really the biggest part of my job is to just, I assume it's very much like you or like what you guys, you try to create an environment where folks are just able to feel that they can say whatever.
22:21Yeah. And that it's down the line with me. It's generally like a year down the road, but you start looking at footage and piecing it together. And I really always try to show, and this is why we asked Linda to come watch it, as before anything's locked, I want to show it to them because you've been gracious enough to share your time and yourself with me. But this is a story about you. Are you comfortable with it? If you're not, let's talk about what we can change here. Not giving away editorial control. It does have to be coming from me in that, but it is a discussion.
22:58Justin Tranter:Have you, in moments where, because I'm sure you have stories as a writer, producer as well, in moments where an artist or the subject, whatever you want to call them, is too scared to say something or too scared to keep something in the edit. But I mean, I know like this, but that's the lyric that fucking makes the song go. that's the engine to the whole song even if it's in the second verse it doesn't seem like it's that important I know it is how do you as a filmmaker how do you convince the subject to let that thing stay in the movie when screening uh this film with Linda there was there is a scene in the movie that I was definitely worried about um and you may know the moment that I'm referring to where Linda's in the closet yep and it is I was gonna ask about that so thank you for making my job easy just talk about it is a scene that a lot of people want to know about because there are there's a lot of questions to it and we hadn't talked about it since you sent it to me and then we're watching the film and it's just linda and her best friend aubyn and my producing partner dan seliger and myself in this big room and i think dan and i might have had a little scotch in the back of the room waiting for this, knowing what was coming.
24:15And as it got closer, you know, you start to get scared because you don't, you just don't know. And then we heard Linda from the front row go, Oh my God, you kept that or you use that. And, uh, and then we talked about it afterwards, but it wasn't like, you have to take that out immediately. I think Linda and Sean and other people I've worked with generally do understand the power of an image like that and what it says
24:44Justin Tranter:what what was your thought process of of obviously you exclaimed from the front row oh my god you kept that what made you want it to stay well when you know I would I got you know the cancer I had the surgery um things I was having a meltdown you know like I don't even know who I am anymore with all this bullshit so confusing he's capturing all that and um and that particular and he said hey if you're ever alone just lay the camera your phone down just push record in case you feel like something's coming rather just have rather just get rid of all the bullshit you know that doesn't need to be there but just so you're ready and I'm like all right I go in my closet I'm like okay there's the cam I'm just gonna put the phone down I start moving about I'm gonna get dressed you know because god forbid anybody i don't i'm not never without my hat and not done up in some way you know i'm not going to do that anyways so i'm blah blah and i see my on my chair the white ipad is there i flip it over and i'm like oh just you know as i'm dicking around i'm just going to you know play some music and i just push play and one i never even thought about two roads is the only one that uses that ipad is my 11 year old child um at the time was eight or seven what the hell how do they know about super tramp first of all because they were the ones that were listening rose was listening to super tramp yeah which was i haven't even addressed that you know so that's pretty you know it's pretty awesome so i push and the long way home comes on and I don't know what happened.
26:23I honestly have no idea what happened.
26:29Justin Tranter:Wow. Something happened. I felt emotional and I came out of it. I stopped the recording. I instantly sent it to him. I said, I do not know what this is. Do what you want with it. But I'm erasing it right now off of my phone. That was it. Are you okay? Whatever. Didn't answer. I don't know. He called me or texted me. Didn't answer. So, cut to, mind you, I have no idea what just happened. And I forgot about it because it was like one of those moments where you just, you know, you've had it. Everyone in this room has had that moment. Yeah. But we don't film it. And we don't put it on a fucking big screen, right?
27:17so I'm with my best friend and I'm watching the movie and I'm like I swear I'm like this half the time I'm scooting down it's like I'm watching you know Freddy Krueger come out of the you know it's like you know Chainsaw Massacre coming after me and I'm just so frightened by everything I'm seeing because I don't like to see myself I don't like to hear myself at all and I'm like going and then And that scene comes on. I mean, it couldn't be any more bigger than what I was watching. And I was like going, oh, my. And that was I said, oh, my God, I cannot believe because that's the first time I'm seeing it.
27:57Yeah. I didn't know what was going on. I don't know what I filmed. I don't know what happened. And that's the first time. And I'm watching it. And I was so overwhelmed by it that I had a couple notes on something else. just it was just talking heads I said yeah we don't need those people yeah and then I gave him a hug I said you made a really beautiful film and he's like is that it I'm like yep I was so there were so many things I would have changed but what hit me was he knows something I don't and obviously this needs to be seen because it made me so uncomfortable that that to me is a powerful place to be.
28:37Yeah. You know, so I just let it go. And I would say innately, like, you do know that same thing that he knows about you, but it's that really raw, uncomfortable thing that you have to face about yourself. Yes. I think that's why it was such an uncomfortable thing to watch because it was so raw and relatable.
28:57Justin Tranter:Like, watching that, I was like, fuck, like, I've done that so many times. Yeah. Not in front of the camera, I was definitely in the closet. Yeah. You know, like, having those moments and then hearing you talk about like oh you used to dance all the time almost kind of because that moment was such a hard moment for you it was almost like romanticizing the past in a way that it's like no like it's everybody goes through a roller coaster journey um it's just so hard to pull yourself out of the darkness you're having in that moment but then once you release it and reflect on it and you're so lucky that you can watch it back you can be like fuck like there's so many things about my life that is so good and this is something that I just put out there for people to like take a step back and realize that yeah like these moments you can be pulled out of and um like you can and move forward from those emotions and see how beautiful that vulnerability can be well I think that was put what really well put thank you and the it is the rawness that is relatable and that's why I kept it and that's why I didn't pick on the film like that.
30:07Justin Tranter:How does it feel right? You're normally in the driver's seat of getting people to show their vulnerability for getting to people to emotionally expose yourself. How did it feel to be in the passenger seat of that? Well, it was, I'm, I'm always up for any kind of improvement. You know, I'm always searching for how can I evolve and become a better person were you always I've always been like that really you know um I feel like there I was stuck a little bit in my early 20s I was very rebellious and um it was very hard to reach me and because something happened and I just like kind of you know of all the stuff you know because the movie touches a little bit on stuff but it's like it's deeper than that you know like that would have been i mean that's a whole other film but um it's it's a lot there's a lot a lot of damage a lot of trauma and um and i think that why i like the film the way it is is because it touches on things it's not i just said the film is not about anything but it's about everything yeah you know it's like got this appeal like it's a little bit about that and like we talk a little about that and then we move on it's like the cancer okay i had cancer and then we're on to you know somewhere else it's like you know it was like crazy it was just like but i loved that because it's like we didn't don didn't overstate things that were obvious you know like how some people can just overdo like stick on a subject and keep bringing it home so it's like no we can move on we got it so i think that watching the film i've only watched it one time yeah um i i can't bear it again.
31:55And so I watched it one time, I scored it, but I didn't watch it while I was scoring it. I, I turned, she did not tell me until after that. I scored the film and I just had audio on shut. Yeah. And it very quietly. And I just played in the areas like he gave me areas that he wanted, you know, the, the music I couldn't, I was like, and I didn't tell him, but I just I just put the audio on very lightly you know and then I'm hearing where he wants
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32:26Justin Tranter:something what is it where you can you can hear the yourself but you don't want to see is it what is it about seeing I I just I didn't I just couldn't it was too much I just it was too much it's too much it's just way too much and I mean I can't I can't even watch yeah this fucking podcast yeah I mean I've done all these interviews and I have not and I asked people was it okay they're like it's amazing i'm like okay because i can't watch it your interviews are very good you know my 40 pages flooded thank you and i had a friend send me one of your interviews literally 10 minutes before you got here i was like oh really funny he has no clue that i'm we were doing this today it's like oh she's gonna be here in 10 minutes oh yeah yeah so you know so i at that moment when don is pointing all this back at me and i'm opening up again because he gave me that feeling of safety yeah and then on top of it i'm kind of reckless emotionally anyways like i could have been with a couple strangers and they could have been doing crack and i would have been emotionally available like i'm like you know i think i'm looking to be emotionally available but it's like it just kind of comes out it's just i don't mean to be honest it just is and i was actually even thinking about it because somebody last night was like has your honesty ever gotten you you know like made what was it like something about have you ever regretted being so honest and then are vulnerable and i started thinking about it on the way here that question popped up in my head and i was like oh yeah there's been times where i've gotten like people just don't want that kind of honesty yeah so i've literally have people like sometimes don't even want to reach back out to me to tell me about what's going on because they know I'm going to be super honest about, you know, um, what, where they're at in their life and they know they're not doing the right thing.
34:24They know it and they purposely stay away from me. They're not calling me because they know I'm going to call them out on it. I mean, there are so many artists like that. I'm that friend too.
34:34Justin Tranter:I'm, I'm only with my friends, not with like work people, but with my friends. Oh, I do it with everybody. And so it's like, I do it with everybody. Again, you made a really beautiful film. I wish it wasn't about me, but it is. Because I really think I would enjoy it. Right. Watching someone else crumble like that. Yeah. And that whole end scene with discovering the song and the band and how powerful that is. It's probably one of my favorite things I've ever seen. Yeah. And I feel bad about saying that because it's about me. Right. But it's so powerful and so beautiful. It's very powerful. Linda, we hear all the time of when we write a song with someone about something in their life, it helps them heal past it.
35:17Justin Tranter:Do you feel like making a documentary that talks about your relationship with your mom was healing at all? Well, again, that was just another thing that happened. You know what I mean? It was, oh, and this happened. I mean, I'm thinking about him and I'm thinking he was probably sitting there. I fucking hit a jackpot here. who knew all this shit was gonna come out well the way that you let me know things was i i think when we sat down um it was a day i believe we'd done the the we'd shot something in the morning but then there was nothing in the afternoon and we just sit and we're talking i remember i was asking you about neil young and a lot of like kind of old questions and then you're like yeah i have cancer there was no build-up i'm like come back to that uh what yeah neil young fabulous also cancer yeah yeah yeah so i'm dealing with this thing and that we'd been in the studio so much together and you hadn't told me and then it was just like well i didn't tell i didn't tell anybody i didn't tell my mom i didn't tell my family i mean the only people that knew at the time was my best friend and Sarah.
36:29That was it. Those only people that knew. So when my mother got sick, I disappeared. And there was so much going on with that. It wasn't just my mom was sick. I had a family member that literally went crazy calling the police on me. It was crazy. I I had to kidnap my own mother out of her home. And it was crazy. It was nuts. So I kind of was telling him a little bit about it. I'm like, listen, if I wasn't in such emotional crisis and the business Linda came out, which is very rare, you know, I'm like so the most terrible, horrible business person. But I did have one moment of like, God, this is a film right here.
37:16Dawn, you should get over here. Like I should have had him over there because it was crazy. It was nuts, you know, the whole family. But that was just another movie and it was too personal. So I tell him a little bit. I actually have a lot more footage that I actually filmed for you that I didn't send because I was like, you know what? No, I'm not going to do that. You know, it's like a very personal thing. And it's about my mom. If it were me dying and all this was like, come on, bring everybody in. I would have been totally like a whole concert about it, you know, you know, and I'm on my deathbed and, you know, playing guitar or whatever, you know.
37:55Yeah. Anyway, so.
37:56Justin Tranter:Requiem for yourself. And so for that, that was just a piece of it that came out in a really great way. Really everything. I have to say everything about the film was organic. That again, we had no intention to make a documentary. Yeah. No intention for any of this to happen. when I told, and there was a lot of trust because I told Don, hey, I'd like to, I need to jam. After my mom died, I said, I need to fucking jam. I need to get out of my studio. I need to go into a rehearsal space, put a band together and just fucking jam. And he's like, well, what are you going to do? I'm like, I don't know.
38:34And so we talked the night before. I said, hey, we good for tomorrow at Mates? He's like, yeah, what are you going to do? I'm like, I don't know, but I have a band coming and I hired strings too. and background vocalist, you know? And he's like, and you don't know what you're going to do? I'm like, no, but for some reason, I feel like I'm supposed to have them there. And so we get off the phone, two o 'clock in the morning, I write this song, sobbing. I show up at nine or whatever. I tell the band to be there at 10. I tell the strings to be there at 11. The times are wrong, I'm sure, but I'm just, this is my story.
39:06But it was an hour in between, right? So 10, 11, 12. So, but it did happen like that. So I walk in, I'm like, done. I wrote a song and I'm still trying to figure out lyrics and stuff. Band walks in. I teach them the song. Strings, as soon as they knew, strings walk in. I immediately switch over, put on string arrangements in my head, teach it to them right away. I have no idea. Yeah. No fucking idea. Background singers walk in after they learn their part, try to give them the idea. But mind you, I don't have set lyrics yet. So bless their heart, they're just trying to follow me because now I'm emotional.
39:43we start filming it or it's being filmed the whole time and then all of a sudden this incredibly beautiful song just poofs yep shows up and then i get the emotional paths gets emotional you know it's the bass player yep and um and it's just and then the way they edit it together it was just so incredible yeah and so yeah i learned so much because right after that i wrote a whole album The whole movie was about me not knowing how to write a song for myself. And that whole moment watching it, I just poof. A whole crazy cinematic emotional record that has a very clear through line just came out of me from start to finish.
40:34Justin Tranter:Yeah. Unbelievable. Are there things for both of you that you feel like now, whether it's wisdom or success or however you want to look at it, are there things now that you say no to that you wouldn't have said no to in the past?
40:55No, I think, well, for me, it's a challenging time in documentary film. It just is. And I think all independent film. so I think there has to be a little bit more caution on what stories you want to put a couple years of your life into right but probably my biggest takeaway is when you have somebody that welcomes you in like like Linda has it you know I'm so happy that people are really going to have a chance to see this film because I do think it's it's universal but told in a very specific personal manner. As Linda said, everybody's had these experiences and everybody has experienced loss or healthcare scares, health scares.
41:44But rarely is it seen in a film like this with somebody willing to share it so vulnerably. So I think, yeah, for me, it is just figuring out what projects next I would approach and can we have this same kind of intimacy in them because this is rare and it's super rare to have a story where the premise is will Linda find her voice again and now we're sitting here all these years later with a finished movie that I'm very proud of and a whole album of material that the film in the experience inspired in some way yeah I mean that's a once in
42:20Justin Tranter:a lifetime thing yeah completely cool how about for you Linda are there things that that are were you always good at saying no to things or um oh yeah i said no so much and um you know i think that i hit a place where i said you know what i'm gonna try yes i'm gonna see what yes feels like because i'm always i'm a dick you know like i'm about you know with my songs like i don't let anybody use it like everybody's like you know american idol for god's sakes leave me alone You know, it's like, you don't let American Idol use your songs? Never. Oh, see, I was broke for so long and I'm such a whore that I'm like, yes to everything.
43:03Well, you're, I, we're the same, but we're very different. Yeah. You know, like you're so good at writing what people want to hear. Like you're really good and you're, you craft these such hooky melodies. Like you, you have that, that thing. you can just write a pop song. You just do. And if you can't, you put a team together with you to make it happen. I'm solo, and I'm not looking to write hits. Those just kind of happen. I didn't mean to write any of the songs that I've written. They just kind of happened, and sometimes some hit, sometimes they don't. I don't really care about that. So my songs for me are more precious.
43:49Right. You know, and I'm leaving those songs to my child. And I want to have, I just want to know that everything I did, it's clear, it's respectful to me that I'm proud of everything I've done. I've said no to so many artists that have wanted to work with me. A lot of the people that you work with. And I say no because I don't believe them. Right. I don't believe them. And, you know, and they'll come in and with this, like, I want this, I want that. And I look at them like, I know you're really popular. I know that. And I think you're actually kind of cool, but I don't have a connection to you.
44:27Yeah. So, and they look at me like, what? You know, like I'm coming to you and I'll recommend somebody else. You know, I think I've actually recommended you, you know. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. And they're blown away by that. And then actually after their initial shock, they're like, you know what? That's actually really cool. You could have just taken my money and you wrote me a shit song, but I actually kind of dig it, you know? And I'm like, okay. So no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then finally one day I was like, you know what? I'm going to see what, yeah.
44:59Still not saying yes to American Idol, but I do say yes to like, you know, okay, I'm going to let WhatsApp go out for a little bit. I'm going to go let it breathe and beautiful. Go, bye-bye, see you later. go and let them have their day in the sun and and then but come back to me because i'm not gonna let you guys that free you know and so i'm very specific you know let me just tell you this i will turn down a blockbuster with tons of money for the cool indie that's using it in a very specific more emotional way i'll choose and then my at the time i don't i don't have a publishing company now but when i did they would be so upset with me it's like wait a minute am i getting this right but you turned down the big blockbuster that was going to make you money but you said yes to the weird indie australian film and you know for like a thousand dollars i'm like yeah yeah because
45:54Justin Tranter:that's that i believe in i don't believe in that wow that is i think i could talk to you about just that all day. One, you know, I'd never had a song that I wrote alone good enough for anyone to want to put it in a movie or American Idol. So for me, there's always two or three other writers on my songs that it's like, well, let's just all say yes and let it go. And two, you're 100 % right of none of my songs, very few are personal to me because I never liked pop music. I still don't. So to me, it was always just a job. Once I left my band and started writing songs for other people, I don't, none of them are about me.
46:36None of them resonate with me.
46:40Justin Tranter:None is a dramatic term. Most of them don't. But for you, these are all, for the most part, 100 % you. I want to go back to you for a second. I knew that was coming. That's where we're very the same. Like I come from, you know, this band that I don't even know what we were. There were so many different genres going on in that one album. But I didn't plan on, you know, becoming a producer and songwriter. Right. That just kind of happened. And I think why we're good at it is because we're coming from a different place. Yeah. You know, we're coming from this. That's why we're good. Right. We're not coming from the pop world.
47:19We're bringing in melody. Yep. And different structure. but with you it's like I don't believe for one moment that you can't write a hit song by yourself or something that you think is worthy enough yeah I think you just got comfortable working with a team yeah and it somehow made it maybe easier for you to process that like maybe I need this maybe it's more fun because you're obviously you know social too and you've That's such a great personality. And who wouldn't want to be hanging out in a studio with you? I never did that. I never knew to work with other people because I didn't understand that world.
48:02I was just like, I'm just used to working on my own. And then when artists come in, they're vague. You know, they're like on the couch. And at the time when I was really popping with 2002, you know, in the 2000 to 215 or whatever. and you know if they weren't on their sidekicks they were on their iphones and you know and it's like could care less showing up like at god knows what time you're supposed to be there at 10 a.m showing up at 10 p.m you know it's like i'm sorry did you get the a.m p.m wrong you know and so i and so i was kind of having and people didn't they wanted me to just do it on my own because i was also producing right engineering yeah you know I was doing everything writing in playing so I think I just got used to yeah being by myself where I would have I think had way more hits if I just called you up and said hey can I join your writing posse yeah because I think that would have been a different experience and so I did finally say yes to that so um I started working with this girl that I found and so not my style at all but I love her because she's just she couldn't be any more like you know uh college you know uh frat girl but she's got such a great thing about her like she's so green and so innocent it's like ridiculously sweet and um I'm like okay and she's like I need to work with you and so persistent so I said okay this is how I'm gonna do it I called Nat Dunn.
49:40I called Feroz. I called this girl Lisa Fatale that's in this band, Tara Jr. And I'm like, you guys are going to be my songwriting team. Here's the girl. This is the couple songs I've written for her. They all loved it. I'm like, now we're going to write. And I brought in this guy, Grabitz as well to do some beats. And it was so much fun. And we wrote the greatest songs. I never would have wrote most of those songs on my own. Because they were dumb. You know, and it was like fun, dumb and fun.
50:11Justin Tranter:So how does it feel to change your process this late in your journey? It was great because, you know, I'm just like, okay, Linda, it's okay to be dumb and fun. Yeah. It's okay. Everything doesn't have to be like this bleeding my fucking emotions of just, you know, my, you know, whatever, you know, like just spewing out. Like it's like deep Linda. Now there's a whole movie documenting you spewing your emotions. Yeah. So I loved it. We can put it to bed. I loved it. I had so much fun doing it. And then it honestly, on top of it, and this for the collaborator part, kids that would come in and they didn't want to write with songwriters, you know, they were just like, no, I don't want to do that.
50:53And I would tell them, listen, write the fucking song.
50:57Justin Tranter:Yeah. Just write it. Yep. You don't know what it's going to be. Maybe it's not for you. Maybe it's a country song for somebody else. Yep. Stop editing. Yep. Stop editing yourself because we'd get in and it turned in like to like a country song. And they're like, well, I'm not into country. I'm like, you know what? But this country is into us right now. So let's fucking write it. Yeah. And it could be for anybody. So I always tell the kids, stop editing. Just let it come out. Just let it happen. Yeah. And you never know. Just because it's showing up country doesn't mean it can't turn into a rock and roll song or a pop song.
51:30Yeah. Just let the process happen. And I think that's the most awesome thing about collaborating is when you don't go in. Like someone says to me, do you ever get writer's block? And I'm like, no, that's a thinker's problem. I don't think about writing. I just write. If it's there to write, it'll show up. But if you're having problems, that means you're overthinking and you're trying to write a song. So number one thing to all you little collaborators and writers, don't fucking think. And don't edit. just let the song come out the way it's going to come out and then deal with it later stay in the
52:04Justin Tranter:moment because that's important do you have that as like as the filmmaker are there moments when you get stuck and how do you get around it or is it are you similar to linda and me where it's just like if it's flowing it's flowing or or yeah just listening to that that's exactly what i try to tell myself and try and now that i've been doing this for a while when younger filmmakers come to me and it's often they want to wait for all the money to show up or they need to have a large crew. They need to have whatever it might be. And I always say, just start filming it. If there's a story that you're passionate about telling, grab a camera.
52:38Heck, you can do so much with a phone now. Right. Like grab it. You know, if you can find a couple of people that are into it as much as you and a small crew, but momentum gives more momentum. Yeah. And you just have to start filming it. Yeah.
52:52Justin Tranter:What do you guys hope, right? Because now this movie is also this album. It's all one thing. Like for both of you, what if you could pick one thing that you really hope people take away from it? What would it be? For me, it would be it's okay to be vulnerable. It's actually very powerful. Yeah. To be in that space. And the amount of vulnerability that you share in this, it's very, very powerful. Thank you. Like, deep courage. Thank you. Thank you. But that, I would say, for me, I hope people understand that. It's just like, you know, we're so afraid. And especially right now, we live in such fear, you know, and it's just like, but, you know, it's so powerful to show people vulnerability because it breaks people down.
53:45Yeah. It takes their guards down. Yeah. When, you know, it makes people trust you and, and on top of it, we're just in a world right now where we just need honesty because I don't know what is going on. I don't know what is real right now. I do not. I, I am not even trying to make a statement. I really am confused. What is real?
54:08Justin Tranter:No, same. It's the amount of even people, friends of mine posting completely opposite information. Friends. It's not like, oh, it's my distant uncle who's posting some crazy shit that I don't believe. It's friends posting things in 10 seconds of each other that the exact opposite information. So I think I didn't even think that's a really good point to make an album and a movie that is just raw, deeply honest and raw in this time is powerful. yeah I agree and and I think it's it's okay and perhaps it's better to put things out into the world that showcase that instead of what I think we see so much of on any number of streaming platforms that every movie is the same and hits the same beats and hits everything and that was never I do think this film happened very organically but it's something that I've always strive to do is is have things that are yeah it's going to always be called a music documentary but within that it's not about all of the career highs and lows for Linda it's not a retrospective on that or no it's much more trying to get four non-blondes back together it's not those things it's it's a personal story about an artist figuring trying to figure it out yeah and more than artists a human being trying to figure stuff out yeah and I feel like those stories are always necessary yeah I like how she pops in really smart and really awesome like all of a sudden quiet adults talking now I don't know.
55:50Justin Tranter:It's just something that's about gut instinct, emotional intelligence, and getting out of your own way. And I really like that because going back to what you were both just saying about this is such a polarizing time that we're living in. And people are either frozen or overly reactive. And from what I gather from you, it's like your natural tendency is to almost be self-destructive. but you get out of your way in time to make something that is art and that like luckily it speaks to a lot of people so it does get to go public and i think that that is something that is really helpful for people in this time whether they're creative and they need that guide and that blueprint or just people living in this world world where it's like i don't know what the is real but tapping into your gut instinct to know what will help you move forward in whatever industry or personal path that is is very powerful yeah do you feel like for both of you actually when it comes to gut instincts and the art that you make did you always did you always trust your gut or is this something you learned the older you got or oh my god i've had i don't have a mind like i listen to you and i'm like going gosh you're so smart talk is so intellectual i'm so jealous i don't have that i have very small basic words and everything you know i i dropped out in eighth grade you know and i even failed before up until then you know everything was like i was great in pe you know and social friends yeah but i was told them yesterday like principals used to call me in the office and i'm like miss perry why are you here you know because i was failing everything i'm like to make friends you know they're like they're like the you know school is not to make friends it's to educate and you're wasting our teachers time by not being present you know and i'm like okay well what you want me to do and they're like leave you know but back then they didn't i mean the thing is i have i can't um my brain i i don't i'm not dyslexic but my brain turns everything around.
57:55When I read, I can only get through one paragraph and then I forget everything I read. If you try to teach me something, I can't. I get overwhelmed. If I see a bunch of numbers on my assistant, I have to call her and literally, I have a weird OCD in this area. She has to explain to me all the dates and the times very slowly because if I see it on a paper, I get really overwhelmed. I don't understand what I'm looking at. So I'm very insecure in that space, but I'm extremely street smart, and I have great common sense, and the one thing that has saved me is my gut instinct. I would never trust my mind about anything, but that feeling inside me, it is active.
58:45It always has been. It's witchy. my grandmother was um a very popular um palm reader so all the people in in the neighborhood would go to my grandmother and she never took any money and she's they would come to her and say my daughter's sick and she would look at the palm and she would tell them this is what you need to do yeah if they heal if they get healed bring me a blanket or a loaf of bread never money wow and so she was very powerful and I saw pictures of her and she looks very intense my mom had it my mom dreamt she could was a she uh I don't know what's called but her dreams would come true she would see things in her dreams and my her sister was um more on the evil side like I met her one time and I didn't I didn't want I like I was so affected by her in such a negative way wow I very black magic and she was very negative was very so anyways when people say that about me i'm like keep it away from me right now but my gut instinct which is my you know is you know whatever it is has got me from here to there like where i am is because of my gut in songs like what's up and
1:00:06Justin Tranter:beautiful and the other unbelievable iconic songs you have it when the gut instinct is telling you to write them? I get asked this question all the time and I have an answer ish, but I'm going to ask you, let's just use beautiful. When you wrote it, did you know, oh fuck, this is special? Like, did you, did your gut raise its hand and go Linda, something crazy has just been written? No, I mean, it's not like that. It's more like it just is meant to be. Yeah. You know, I don't look at it like oh I just wrote something special because I don't really think it's coming from me you know and because the way they show up it's so pre-recorded yeah you know yeah it's just the melodies there the lyrics show up it all comes at the same time I'm not sitting there for hours I just sit at the piano or guitar and I just start playing and then I just don't think about it and I just move my hands wherever it's asking me to go yeah and then the lyrics start showing up and I'm just ad-libbing saying things I'll do that for like 15-20 minutes then I arrangement a whole song is there I'll listen and I record it on my phone or if I'm at the studio in my my pro tools and then I just go back I listen to it and I write down all the the the lyrics yeah fill in the holes and there it is and the only thing I know is if it was meant to be there because otherwise it wouldn't happen so easy yeah what's up was the same thing you know it was just I think I wrote that one in 10-15 minutes yeah beautiful I stepped away from it when the words I am beautiful showed up right that was not me yeah that was something else and when I am beautiful.
1:02:00I was just like, uh-uh. No, I can't say that. I don't believe that. And so I literally, like, taking the foot off the gas, hopped out of the car and went to the other side of the room, and I was like, okay, what is that? And I had to talk myself back over there because I had to tell my own lesson. Like, Linda, we don't edit. We don't think. We just write what's there. yep fucking get it back over to the piano and i went over there and i'm just like okay i'm beautiful thank god the second first came in as a third person you know to all your friends you're delirious you know i was just like thank you i didn't i didn't mean for that it was like a another person showed up therefore i was able to go you are beautiful and i was like phew god take this off myself take this off me and then then it then the only intentional thing i did was go we because i was like okay well that makes sense you you know it's like then i gotta go to we after that so but yeah i mean i don't know i i i think that the only time i got really super excited about a song and and i did call it out and i said this is a hit was when i wrote get the party started yeah that was the stupidest fucking song and i was just like having fun with that because i was learning about you know what a trident keyboard was and you know rolling expansion cards and mpcs like because i was trying to figure out what is that terrible sound on the radio right now and everybody said it's these three things you know mpc trident and these rolling expansion cards has all these you know sounds in it and so i got all three of those things and i'm on my mpc someone gave me like like you know the biggest file of you know like the the drives or like that i'm sticking it in there and all these sounds come up and i'm like okay you know and then i grab my bongos and i'm just like you know playing bongos because i didn't find a bongo sound so i'm just like going and mind you this is all like three and a half minutes i didn't have pro tools i was on tape right you know so i'm just like for three and a half minutes playing bongo and then i'm like i you know then the bass i'm like okay i'm just gonna go with the regular bass boom boom and just play that for three and a half minutes and then you know then just every single sound i could find i'm just like going ding ding you know guitar wah wah okay pick up my bullet microphone and then i'm just like going okay i'm gonna think of every cliche thing I can think of you know and it just came out I'm coming up so you bet I mean it's so cocky and ridiculous and then I just started laughing and I'm like oh my god I wrote a dance hit you know
1:04:44Justin Tranter:yeah you did yeah a really a really really good one so that's the only time you were like this is a hit this is a hit because you were just like it was so stupid it was like ridiculous I was just like in awe of that. I could be so dumb and write something. Don, can you remember a moment in your career where you just like creatively were just like, let's just be fucking dumb and something magical happened? It might be a little tougher in documentary film. Because it's such a long form. Maybe a little more challenging. But I think something that maybe not dumb, but just really was experimental is the animation in Linda's film.
1:05:20Justin Tranter:Yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, that was sort of a pretty big swing for us because we, in making it, Linda, as you know, tells these amazing stories. And we just were like, how do we visualize this in the film? What is what is the way? You know, do we go get stock footage or have reels of tape rolling or I don't know? Yeah. And somebody on the team had the idea about animation. And they knew this firm out of the UK called Studio Linguini that did this really. they'd done a couple of music videos that had this uh stop motion thing and so i started talking to them and i've never really done that in any other film has had had somebody like that and i learned a ton about just how animation works and how you have to stick with whatever idea comes you know you can't really change it once you get into the middle of it so that to me is just a really big creative swing and a lot of trust in those team because we had like what are you guys doing it's It's a small team in the UK making these giant sets.
1:06:21And then they'd send me like four seconds here, four seconds there, because it takes forever to render. And okay, I guess the pieces are going to come together here.
1:06:31Justin Tranter:Yeah. I mean, it is a special moment. And the first time, all of a sudden, there's this animated hat coming, which I wore my hat for Linda today. And I was like, oh, that's amazing. Because those of us who are fans of you and not lucky to call you a friend, And the hat is iconic. So when there's the fucking animated hat, I was like, oh, we are on a. We go into that hat. We are on a journey. But the last question we ask every episode is what advice would you give your younger self about the art of collaboration? What is something that you wish you would have known sooner to make you a better collaborator?
1:07:10i think you know my my journey to make documentaries is is i don't know that there is one right way you know we all get into this and very few of the people i ever work with are like strict like i went to film school or i went to the documentary program at stanford everybody's had a unique path but i think the starting the way that i did coming up through television news where we were cranking out stories every day. Yeah. And the, the positive of that, it's allowed me to work very quickly and I'm able to do, to wear a lot of hats from, uh, you know, producing a piece to filming it myself to editing it, but there's, isn't a lot of collaboration in that.
1:07:51And I think the people that I meet that have gone through film school have that, uh, understand that there's a lot of different people doing a lot of different roles. And so maybe if I could go back and tell my younger self to open that world up faster and not necessarily try to. I think in my first couple of films, I had a directing partner at the time and we would really do all of the jobs. Yeah. And that's hard. And it also doesn't you're not bringing in different viewpoints. Yeah. You know, so I think the movies could have maybe been better if we had collaborated more. So I would love to go back and try that.
1:08:31Justin Tranter:What I love, because we've been lucky enough to talk to people from all different mediums and genres. And I would say half of the people give that exact answer. And that's my answer, too. It's just like realize you don't have to do everything. And that like having help is really cool. Yeah. And it's like I'd love to hear a director say that because I've heard now musicians and makeup artists and all these different people say the same thing. I love to see that common thread. Linda, do you have advice for younger Linda about collaboration? I'm going to have to snip that thread of yours, that common thread.
1:09:10Please, I love it. I do not. I do not. I would not change one thing. I love my journey. My journey continues to grow. So to me, if I would have known those collaborations earlier, it would have pivoted me in some way. And I would not have had this. I have this growth that's always going like this. And it's because of the choices I've made. It's because of the way the universe wants to unfold. It's navigating me. and I am definitely moving at, you know, by design. Yeah. So I do not. I think it's awesome that at 60 years old, I put a songwriting team together for the very first time. Yeah. And I love it.
1:10:06Yeah. And I want to do more of that. Yeah. Now, guess what? I'm inspired and it's going to take me another 10 years, you know, into creative to, you know, so I'm always learning something new. And sometimes things might take a little longer, but I'm okay with that because one little alteration could change all of it. And I'm digging where I'm going. Yeah. And I like who I've become. Like I can see that. Like I think I can honestly see from this film and just from like all the attention I'm getting like right now, like with the album and the film, like I see that there is a, you know, I was saying that last night, there is a power in me.
1:10:53Justin Tranter:Yeah. You know, but I don't walk in that like, oh, I'm Linda Perry powerful. People say they're intimidated by me all the time. And I'm thinking, really? Like, why? Like, I'm so. Well, you mean a lot to people. What does that mean? What? That little smirk you just gave. The intimidation? Yeah. You don't think you can be intimidating? I think I'm verbal.
1:11:21Arriving here, you rolled down your window and flipped me off. Because that was just fun. I'm still in the movie with you. Like for me, it's that we're always in a continual movie.
1:11:32Justin Tranter:No, I think, one, I love that answer. And I'm glad that you didn't give your younger self advice, that you didn't have the cheat codes because you meant so much to me. You know, I was a huge Four Noun Blondes fan, as you know. And then knowing that you went from that and your major label artist career ended and you became a huge songwriter is the reason I went, okay, I guess I'm going to try to be a songwriter. When that door opened for me, I was like, well, I didn't know you yet. But I'm like, well, Linda Perry did it. She's also gay. I guess gay people can do that. Gay people can. Crazy. Who knew?
1:12:11Justin Tranter:Who knew? And it was, it was, if there is intimidation, I think it's because you have, you, your legacy is a lot more powerful than you realize. You know, it's, there is no way I would be, I would have ever gone, I guess I should write for other people now that my major label career has ended as an artist. Right. If you hadn't done it first. Right. And I think that that, that carries a lot of weight. Yeah. I guess I, I appreciate that. I guess I don't think about it that way because I don't know. I just, I like, like I said, I like hanging off the edge. I never, I don't want to be, you know, content.
1:12:46And, and I think that's like, I have to, I have to constantly be multitasking because my brain on its own with just one little thing, it's like, it's too much. I'm there's, it's like, I don't know if you go through this as a, as a creator and you as well, but I have a hard time sleeping because it's always going if i had to get up every single fucking time that there's an idea i would i would probably be crazy and in some kind of asylum right now because i'm constantly like you gotta wake up there's an idea and i'm just like oh no please and then i get up and i write down that or i just grab my guitar and because i'll hear stuff in my head all the time.
1:13:27And, you know, so it's like, I need a lot of stuff to occupy myself. So, um, thank you for that. Yeah. You know, um, you know, I find that we as creators,
1:13:43it's, it's all of it. So I, I, I wish I could tell my younger self to run, you know run now yeah go but i don't know yeah it's like i needed all that yeah i needed it part of my journey yeah you know i'm a survivor yeah you know and i see people that don't get that don't get that experience and i do not want to be them yeah i do not i'd rather be tethered and leathered and worn and walk through this life knowing that i'm a really cool looking leather
1:14:19Justin Tranter:pair of pants you know i mean that's that's the best button to the end of an episode that i've ever heard thank you both so so much thank you thank you thank you thank you watch unfamous on spotify subscribe for no ads i'll see you there
From the publisher
Linda Perry, the songwriter and producer behind songs like Christina Aguilera's “Beautiful” and Four Non Blondes’ “What’s Up?” joins Unfamous alongside documentary filmmaker Don Hardy to talk about the deeply personal documentary about Linda’s life and creative evolution.
The episode explores Linda’s journey through music, collaboration, grief, cancer, vulnerability, and emotional honesty while unpacking what happens when an artist allows themselves to be documented in the middle of real life instead of after the story is neatly finished.
It’s a raw conversation about creativity, trust, survival, and the power of letting people see the parts of yourself you usually try to hide.
Follow, subscribe, like and comment wherever you watch and listen.
Credits:
Unfamous is hosted by Justin Tranter
Created by Justin Tranter & Morgan T. Stuart
Produced by Justin Tranter & Morgan T. Stuart
Written & Researched by Morgan T. Stuart
Director: Morgan T. Stuart
Co-Director + Cinematographer: Olivia McCrary
Audio Engineer: Mike Sabri
Camera Assistant: Kolbi Samantha
Special thanks to Mark Beavan, Jimmy Knehans, and Lauren Mele.
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