Melanie Martinez + CJ Baran | Building Worlds Through Intuition, Trust, and Experimentation

21:48and that makes it. That's the, yeah.

21:50Justin Tranter:When you guys, what I think is so great about like collaborators like committing to each other, like we're gonna do this, then there isn't that fear of like, oh, if we have a bad day, she might not come back, right? Thinking from the person who's not the artist, right? Like CJ and I are not the artist, you're the artist. We always kind of have that fear of like, if we don't like have the greatest day ever, the artist might not come back and we love the artist, you know? And so for you guys to make that sort of, whether official commitment or unofficial commitment to each other, so nice. Because then you can have those days where you're like, fuck this, let's just hang out.

22:27Justin Tranter:Where in so many of the LA session, scheduling session world, you kind of don't get that freedom. And it's so beautiful for you to create that freedom for him where he knows that if I suck today, she's coming back tomorrow. But there's so many days where, I mean, there's even times, even on Hades, there was like one moment towards the end where we're like we have everything everything's good but then I was just like there still feels like maybe like I'm gonna just just for fun at the very end just like see what it's like to like you know uh bring in another producer or something and end up having like a couple sessions with Malay and we wrote yeah and then we yeah it was so good we had one last minute addition to the album and it's a great piece yeah it just fits so so well and i think that's the the beauty as well as like i just i think we both just really care so deeply about each other and the art that we make together but also the art that we make separately like we're we really do like champion each other and cheer each other on we're huge fans of each other like um i love um you know cj's ability as well to work with newer artists and younger artists who are like trying to find the world that they're building and he's working with you know amazing amazing artists and one of the most people's like valencia like she's so talented and valencia is amazing yeah yeah morgan's working with a valencia too she's so talented and lovely and like and and you know i had a session with them too recently that was just so special and so who are you writing for for valencia cool is that have you written for other people before no but i would love to she's starting to you've been we've been doing some stuff together yeah that was like That was like the second or third time ever, but I would love to.

24:13That's a fun thing for sure.

24:15Justin Tranter:Oh, it's such a freeing, because I was in a band for a million years because I'm 10 ,000 years old. No, you're not. I'm grandma over here. And when I started, it was like, I would just do a couple days here or there when the band was off tour or whatever. And I was like, oh, this is so freeing because I never was thinking as big as you were, but still, as the artist, you're thinking about the show. What am I wearing in the video? How do my fans that I know so well, how are they going to react to this and blah, blah, blah. But when you're writing for somebody else, you're just like, let me help you.

24:46Justin Tranter:Yes. It's so fun. This is so... It's so fun. And it's fun learning about them and their experiences and how they want to relay certain messaging in their music. And yeah, it's... Your summer runs just got a boost of energy in Lululemon's Shake It Out shorts. made in our ultra breezy lightweight swift fabric the shake it out shorts have a flowy layered hem and a comfy built-in liner these shorts keep you locked in for miles with distraction-free storage and a waist fan that doesn't budge they might just be the shortcut to your summer goals shop the shake it out shorts now at lululemon.com it's amazing she's really good at it yeah yeah yeah it's when you guys like hit as collaborators who've made so much amazing stuff together and more amazing stuff to come.

25:38Justin Tranter:When you hit, like, tough moments in the collaboration, like, it seems like you really like each other, so I'm not looking for tea. I'm not looking for gossip about, like, when you got in a fight. Have we ever gotten in a fight? We're both, like, also very, like, like, I'm a triple Taurus, so if anyone knows anything about astrology, I'm very, like, chill, like, just Earth, like, all Earth. And CJ's an Aquarius, but he has so much Capricorn as well, so he's also very Earthy. So both of us are just kind of like, like we just. Two rocks. We don't have to entertain each other. I think, yeah, I think the problem is when people are like feeling like they need to, like there's no togetherness in a session.

26:16It's like you're two separate people who like have different ideas of like what something should be rather than coming together and like truly wanting to like get into the weeds of like how this thing can be really special and beautiful. And me and CJ both have common interest and goal in that. Yeah.

26:33Justin Tranter:Yeah, just like thinking, I hope people are going to watch this, hoping to like learn about how to be better collaborators. I always like to, so as your guys, if you feel like something's not flowing, you just stop for the day. Yeah, I mean, I think we're both very vocal. Like, I think there's so many moments where I'll be like, eh, I just, I don't know, like we should just start over from, you know, and CJ could be really vibing. He'd be like, I really like this. And I'll be like, let's just start something else. And neither of us have like an ego about it. Like there's so many times where, like there's actually something that I'm, Something that I'm not very good with is, like, I can find certain harmonies and I can do up to a certain point, but I'm not technical with my harmony game at all.

27:12And CJ is. He's really good about that. And he's musically very, you know, he has the technical intelligence and knowledge. And I don't really have them all, like, feeling and, like, intuitive. You have two really interesting harmonies, though. You'll come out with some crazy cool ones. It's so random. It's always, like, feeling. Like I can only, the ones that come up are the only the ones that I can really like off the, you know, off the top of my head. Yeah, exactly. And he's like, I mean, there'll be times where I'm like, what? Like he'll literally be like, what about this random harmony? I'm like, this is insane.

27:44Like I'm like, and I'm just sitting there trying so hard to remember it and do it. It's like, so we, there's so many moments where like, we just really know how to best kind of step in, in certain moments that the other person is maybe like, hey, I need help with this thing. Hey, I need help with this. We just really, we just vibe in that way. And room to paint. We play with so many interesting sounds on this record. There's a ton of medieval instruments and we're running them through distortion. You don't have time in a regular session to do that. Okay, so not to get geeky,

28:13Justin Tranter:but in the medieval sounds on the record, because I was lucky enough to hear it last night, are those sampled or are you? A lot of them are real. A lot of them are sampled. But like sampled off of real instruments from 1600. Crazy. Yeah. But then we're running them through guitar amps. Okay, so then when you're choosing like, okay, I need a medieval instrument, is it based on just like this would sound cool and this is the vibe or is it specific storytelling? Every song is different, but like something like, I don't know, The Plague, for example. Yeah. Yeah, everything is about how it fits into the world and that specific song.

28:53um but yeah it's a little bit of both each each song is different we find different sounds and weird foley sounds too and like all the transitions are very intentional how we build that out yeah um but you're very specific with that too yeah the foley and like yeah we need the sound of like gushy guts the amount of time we spend on that trying to find like the right the right sounds like what tomato squished in the right room. You know, like what's it going to be? Yeah.

29:22Justin Tranter:Just, yeah. It's, yeah, like even on just the first song, between the, it's a bunch of machine guns, right? Yeah. Turned into like an amazing beat. Yeah. And then at the end of that, if I'm remembering this correctly, then like the gushy guts are at the end of that first song, correct? Or is that later? I think it's like two after, but yeah, basically, yeah. And it's just like this, the amount of sonic information while still being able to track this is the chorus. Yeah. I know where the chorus is. While there's this universe of sound happening is really inspiring and aspirational. And it's like you know that there is for sure a very small crew making that whole album because you can't get that detailed if there's like 25 people working on the project.

30:10Justin Tranter:You just can't. And it's really cool. Is there a moment on this album that you feel like probably almost didn't make it? Is there any of those moments where like, oh, this song wasn't right until something magical happened? Again, just trying to pull tips for collaborators out there trying to crack the code on something that was hard to crack. She's usually cracking the code or we're moving on. Yeah, I think it's about refining your ability, your gut feeling. You know, gut feeling is so important. and your intuition is so important. I think a lot of people get lost in the technical aspect and then they end up making a bunch of stuff, you know, that maybe mathematically works and is right, but their gut is telling them the whole time, like, I don't even really care about this.

31:02You know what I mean? Right. And if you can refine your intuition, your gut feeling, to trust your gut and to trust yourself when you really are in flow, then you'll know mid-session like hey this just isn't working also to have the confidence to speak up in a session especially for um artists who are working with writers and and also writers with artists as well I think it goes both ways it's like having enough confidence to say you know hey like this this isn't really this doesn't feel like it's this is the best version of what we're making. Like, how can we like throw paint on a wall and experiment a little bit and just kind of shake off the energy and see what else we can, you know, kind of find.

31:47Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah, a trick I use a lot in that of like, if someone in the room seems really excited about an idea that I'm either not excited about or I'm stuck on or something, I just go like, hey, like, let's just like put in a quick scratch of what we have. I love this so much. But just for me, Now everyone who co-writes with me is going to know that I'm an asshole. But just for me, let's just move to a new idea. But we'll have this, so if we need to get back to this, we have a scratch of it. Of course, yeah. And that's the way you don't deflate your collaborator by being like, fuck this. You just go, hey, let's put a pin in it and move on to something else.

32:27Justin Tranter:And I find a lot of times my best songs of my career were the second idea from the day. Yeah. Because it's just like, how do you, when you stop something, as the artist and it's your vision, how do you have the strength to be like, yep, that didn't work. I don't need that one. That refresh you've been putting off until the right deal came along? It's here. Wayfair's Black Friday in July sale is happening now. So you can finally get the style you've been waiting for for less. Get up to 80 % off area rugs and up to 60 % off outdoor and bedroom furniture. Shop Wayfair's huge selection of styles and find the piece to fit your style, budget, and space.

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33:23I don't know. Again, it's like a feeling thing, but I don't give up on an idea if I think that it's worth...

33:30Justin Tranter:Something in there. Yeah, like if the message is important, I think I will try my best to keep going. So for example, we tried to write a song for Hades called, and we tried to call it Earl Grey or something. My favorite tea. It's my favorite tea too. Have you tried Earl Grey cream? Yes, I love Earl Grey cream. I love it. I was going to say, if you haven't, I'm gonna send you home with some. I have like three boxes. So good. Oh my God. That's like my go-to. It's amazing. Like, how did they get it so creamy? I don't know. I was like, I'm a vegan. So I was like, there must be milk. There must be dairy in this teabag.

34:06Justin Tranter:Don't fucking lie to me. It's so good. Okay, sorry. Yeah. So we tried to write a song called Earl Grey and it was gonna be about climate crisis. And I knew that it was important to talk about that on this record, but I just, it just didn't, And we wrote the song and we both were just kind of like, meh, meh. Like it's not a bad song, but it's also not amazing. And we just knew that we could do better with that. And that was such an important message that we're like, let's really try our best to. So you take the message that you love and put it in a new song. And then we wrote Hell's Front Porch.

34:42Justin Tranter:Which by the way, title. That is such. We're living on it. We're living on it, yeah. I am writing a post-pop, post-apocalyptic opera called The Great Thirst about climate crisis. And so when I started sensing those themes in the album, I was like, this is awesome. All I really read is post-apocalyptic literature. Like Emily St. John Mandel, Octavia E. Butler. That's like my - Parallel of Sower is amazing. Parallel of Sower is so good. And unfortunately, it's all coming true. I know. He references us a lot on this record. I was telling him about it. I was like, oh, man, you have to read it. It's just too, it's just, it's too on the nose.

35:26It's really, it's crazy.

35:27Justin Tranter:And she wrote it in the 90s. Yeah. And it takes place in 2024. Yeah. Like we are, she knew too much. She knew too much. She knew, she was trying to warn us. And it's just, yeah, Octavia E. Butler kind of like, I found Octavia and then found Emily St. John Mandel right after who wrote Station Eleven. I haven't, I haven't read it. It's going to blow your mind. It's like a plague situation. Spoiler alert, there's a plague. But it's about how art still matters. It follows a Shakespeare troupe in a post-apocalyptic world. It's really, really beautiful. Are there moments in both of your lives, whether it was together as collaborators or separately as creators, as artists, that like at the time made you cringe or embarrassed of yourself, but then you now looking back with like bird's eye view, you're like, if I didn't make that mistake, I would not be the artist that I am.

36:25I don't know. I feel like as an artist, I'm curious to hear what your answer is on your, you know, but for me, I just think being an artist is always so, it feels so cringy all the time. You just, you can't help it. It's like, you look back at like your first album and you're just like, what was I wearing? Or what was I, but again, you're it's as long as you're being yourself and music is a timestamp in your life so it's like you know I was just being myself and just creating and just um just doing what it is that I do which is just you know put out art and hope that it resonates with people and you know I think as long as you are being authentic even if it does feel cringe when you get older and you're like wow I've grown so much or my lens on the the world is different or whatever it is like I think it's still is important for that to exist.

37:15And yeah, I don't know. I actually saw this meme. I don't know if you've seen it, where it's like all great things lie on the other side of cringe. And it's like a guy over here and a big valley and then cringe. And he jumps and then he wins. Yeah. And I think there's something to it. Everything is cringe. Everything is cringe. And then it's not cringe. Yeah. And then it's cringe again. Yeah. And I think that's, it's the cycle of life. It's the cycle of cringe. I live in that every day. I look back at pictures and videos of me and my old band from 17 years ago and I've got platinum blonde hair.

37:52I love it. Sounds hot, straight up.

37:53Justin Tranter:I was platinum for 10 years. You know the vibe, wearing skin tight gold pants. I love it. It's a whole thing. Back then I was like, I'm fucking cool. I'm so cool right now. I look at it now, I'm like, what was I doing? Who is that? Right. And I, but then honestly, recently I saw a picture. I was like, that hair is pretty cool. So now it's bad. It's all perspective. And honestly, now K-pop is my old hair. Yeah. It's all perspective. It's like, I, moments like that for me, I like think about like, if people were to play me demos of when I first tried to start writing songs for other people and I was just like deeply trend chasing, because I didn't know I was coming from a band.

38:33Justin Tranter:I thought this is what we're supposed to do. And like Flo Rida is slaying right now. so let me just like try to write a flow rider chorus which by the way Wild Ones flow rider chorus written by Sia masterpiece so I'm not being shady but like me trying to write a flow rider chorus is insane I was like in random sessions in LA you knew me back then I think I met you like a year after I met him so I don't know how crazy I looked when I met you but I'm like in full makeup five o 'clock shadow six inch heels trying to like write a flow rider song and I'm like what What am I doing trying to write a Florida song?

39:12Justin Tranter:But I look back and if like someone were to play me those demos, I would of course be like, oh my God. Yeah, listen to the old demos is rough. But thank God I did it, right? Because if I didn't, like the finally the day I was just like, screw it. Let me just try to write a song that I actually would listen to is the day I got my first cut. There you go. You know, and so if I didn't embarrass myself, I just think about what these people were thinking in those sessions. It doesn't even matter. Who is this person? What is going on? This summer, say I do. I am marrying a stranger. Like never before.

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40:18So amazing. So amazing, though. It is. So amazing. But that's exactly what I mean. It's like, as long as you're being your authentic self, you can't go wrong. You just can't go wrong. It doesn't matter if you've grown past that, if it's not your style anymore, if you look back and you're like, I would do this now. It's like, none of that matters. The only thing that matters is that you were being yourself. That's it. And I was trying.

40:42Justin Tranter:I was trying to learn that world. You cared. And I think that's what people get confused. I think everyone wants to call everything cringe, but what they're calling cringe is just the ability to care. If you care, you're cringe. No, you just care. The ability to care is being cringe. It's true. Is there like what it can be for this album or for any time? Can you guys remember your most chaotic session together? Your most chaotic moment of process? Most chaotic, let's see. You're asking two very earth-driven people. You're like, this is the vibe, there is no chaos. That's usually pretty tame. Yeah.

41:20I'm trying to think. We've had sessions though where we tried one thing and we're like, oh, that no. And then we're like, let's try a different vibe. And then we try a different vibe and that's not it either. Then we try a third vibe and we have a little seed of something and we're like, let's just eat pizza, man. Yeah. Let's just eat pizza. Let's just watch a movie. Let's chill. Yeah. You know? I always know when you do like a vibe though. Yeah. Because she'll start dancing and it could be a ballad. And even if it's a ballad, she's moving. And that's usually, I'm like, all right, there's something special here.

41:49Yeah. And those are usually the ones that we end up finishing. Yeah, I don't even notice. I think it's, you know, you just feel it. Yeah. You feel it in your body. But I know when you don't like it. You'll be writing it, but it's locked in. I'm like, this is not going to make it. Yeah. I just know already, but it doesn't matter.

42:01Justin Tranter:Okay, so that's a great question. Do you just let her figure out on her own that it's not going to make it? And three seconds later, she might, this whole crazy thing, try this, and then we have something amazing. But I think it's part of it. And you'll let me just kind of walk off the deep end sometimes and try something ridiculously crazy over here on the track side. Yeah, and then we'll both be like, actually, this part is really sick for this thing. Maybe we break it down into this. Like everything is valid, you know? And I think that's why it works so well between us is that we understand that.

42:35Like you can just go absolutely crazy. I mean, even our recording sessions are pretty wild. He lets me just do like the craziest things that most people in sessions in the past when I was being put in these random sessions would be like, you know, people trying to tell me how I should be singing and blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, oh man, you're just like, you're ruining the fun. The fun is figuring it out. Like we, I literally would just, sometimes I'm like, I want to sound like a man and I'm going to really try to like get as low as possible with my natural voice and then we're going to like try to like you know alter it just a little bit form it just a little bit to make it sound as natural as possible so it doesn't sound like an effect and I want it to like even for garbage like it's really me and CJ like most of it is like it's like me in layers with CJ underneath it to make it really feel like a group of men who are like singing the um so you better run for the like that like, that's just like full like, yeah, just fun stuff like that.

43:29Or like, or my really high voice that we found. Actually that was crazy. That was a crazy session.

43:34Justin Tranter:Here we go, we got there, we got there. Was it garbage? It was garbage. Yeah, so garbage was actually the first session that I found a new tone in my voice. And it was a full like revelation moment for me. I was like, holy shit, like I could do this? Like I have a new voice to play with. And it's like, and it came from, in real time. And then I was able to do it in play again. And it's just, it became a really fun voice. Now I'm like, I love it so much. It's a part of my voice, which I think is another interesting thing. People always think like they have to have one voice and sound one way their whole career because that's how people like them.

44:09And they should just stick to their lane and do that thing. But I just think it's so much fun to just, you know, explore all the different personalities and facets of yourself as an artist. Even if people think it's like, oh, she sounds so different from this one to this one to this one. And it's like, who gives a fuck? It's all you, you know?

44:26Justin Tranter:But you've built a universe that you can give yourself that freedom. There's characters. Yeah, there's characters. And your fans want that journey. You know what I mean? That's what they're coming to you for. But yeah, the garbage voices. That was a really cool story. That was a moment when we both had each other. What is this? I'm going to re-listen again with this context of the new choice. I mean, it's really like Plague Chorus that like, oh, the days move faster. But there's so much of that voice on the album that you discovered that in this process and now it's cool. That's really cool. A question I ask everybody is, when you were young, what is the moment, whether it was a song, a music video you saw, a live show you saw, that ruined your life?

45:16Justin Tranter:In the sense of like, oh fuck, I'm an artist now forever. this thing has changed the way I view the world. I now, my life is ruined. There's, I can't be normal ever again. I think for me, it was spring awakening. So you're like a full feeder kid. Yeah. I remember seeing that actually with my mom, which was like so uncomfortable. But that rocked me to my core. That was like, okay, I only want to make art. that was a very pivotal moment for me. How old were you? 15. 15? Yeah. I remember that. That's, yeah, Duncan Sheik. Duncan Sheik and Stephen Sater. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Duncan Sheik, who was like a one-hit wonder, singer-songwriter of the 90s.

46:03Justin Tranter:90s old world. Ben wrote this insane musical. That's so cool. Yeah. So, what's yours? I don't know. Really? I don't know. I had so many things that I loved when I was younger, but like, God, I don't know really. Like, I think it was just, I had so many weird random influences as a kid. So like, I actually don't know. It's hard to say. What's like a weird thing you love that you don't know if you've shouted out before just to share with anyone listening? I don't know if I, when I was a kid, I used to watch I had like two comfort movies that would play over and over again. And I think maybe the visual elements or something of both of them, but it was literally just like back to back.

46:57So Edward Scissorhands, which obviously classic, but then also Cat in the Hat. It was also, I think actually did shape me in a really serious way. Is there a movie? Yeah. I have not seen this.

47:09Justin Tranter:Yes, Mike Myers. What? Mike Myers? I need to see this tonight. Yeah, it's like a very Grinch-esque costume. What? Where it's like... Oh, and also the Grinch as well. The Grinch, so those are the three. But I also think it was just, maybe just the crazy surreal kind of, I don't know, but that was like... That makes perfect sense to me. Yeah. As a fan of yours, watching your world from the outside, even your perfume bottle feels like it could have been in one of those movies. I just, yeah, I love tactile, practical creations. Yeah. And I think those movies had a lot of set builds that were so whimsical and, yeah, very inspiring.

47:48Justin Tranter:Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Yeah, I could feel like those... The Edward Scissorhands into Cat in the Hat, that makes perfect sense. For this new album, do you guys feel like it lives in a different emotional space than stuff in the past? Yeah, definitely. For sure. Was there a goal for that? Like, was there a goal of, like, this is where I want this to move? Hmm. Or does it just happen as it happens? I knew that I wanted to make a dystopian record and a utopian record. Like, that was kind of, like, we actually wrote both at the same time. Cool. So are they both done? They're done. Yeah. That must feel so good.

48:31There might be a couple little tweakers.

48:33Justin Tranter:Yeah. We might add some last-minute ones on the utopian one now that we have, like, some time. Yeah. But it was really fun doing that, actually. that process, it meant that we could, each day we came in, we decided, are we in a darker kind of vibe today? Or are things feeling really light and euphoric? And we were able to use our energy from the day to create something that felt organic and natural, rather trying to force ourselves to be in that one mode. So we did have that contrast, which was nice. That was actually really nice. Yeah, like one day we were like, it feels like a ****. Cut that out.

49:09Justin Tranter:We can edit it out. We'll do a big bleep on it. Don't worry. We got you. Don't worry. We're like, oops. Bleeking the utopian album title. No, no, no. We are all friends here. We will bleep it out and get the laugh afterwards, though. Because the laugh is pretty joyful. Yeah. We got you. Do not stress for one second. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't worry. Imagine if you showed up to a got you interview. No, it's all good. It doesn't even matter. Like, I really don't. They're all decisions I can make at any time. This is true. It doesn't matter. But it is whatever. But it's like, yeah, so one day we'd be like, is it the utopian kind of energy or is it the dystopian energy?

49:44Like, which one are we feeling? And some days we'd be like, yeah, it feels light. It feels joyful. It feels happy. Let's, you know, let's stick with that. And then some days we're just like, ah, the world is bleak. What are we living in right now? Yeah, so it just, it was fun. That was a cool little thing.

49:59Justin Tranter:What has your, did your process change at all for this record? Hmm, from Portals, I wonder. I think we kind of had the same. One new thing was what you mentioned earlier though, starting with drums on a few songs. That was a new thing and it was definitely freeing. Now, was that like a conscious choice of like, hey, let's just try to write this way just to give us something new? Well, it was when we did, but then the first time we did it, that was like a random thing. Yeah, that was an accident. That was just like, we just found a sick drum groove and we were like, let's just ride on this drum groove for a bit.

50:31And I was like, I was like already singing melodies. So that's why it was like, okay, let's just like hold for a second before we start finding chords because the melodies are coming sooner than the chords. And then after that, we made a conscious decision to be like, let's just do the drum vibe where we just listen to drums and see what happens. But it was cool with that one because you had the chorus melody over the drums. And then that was done. So when I started playing chords, I played them in a way that I wouldn't have if I had started.

51:00Justin Tranter:Because you had to play chords to the melody that she had already written. So there's like a lot of sus chords in there, just things that I would not normally do laying down a vibe. And I think that made things different in a cool way. Is there something that you want people to understand or you hope that they understand about this era that might not be super obvious? I just... I really tried my best as a writer and we tried our best as collaborators on this music as well to... kind of make as many different songs as possible about so many different traps that are kind of set in our current reality and reflecting on how our reality is very dystopian and that this isn't, you know, the word dystopia doesn't, it's not, it's no longer tethered to this like future kind of idea.

51:54It's like we're living in it and this is, this album is very much a reflection of the world. Like that was my biggest thing that I wanted to make sure was present and potent. And so I just hope that when they listen to it, that even if it's one verse in a song or something, that just they really... Because everybody's going through so many different stages of emotions and feelings, and nobody knows what the right answer is. And everybody just wants the best for each other and for our communities. And we want things to progress in a beautiful way, but it feels so bleak. and so having songs that can help you kind of reflect on everything going on in the world like everything we tried to we didn't write about everything we tried though I mean I don't know what feel I don't know how you feel you listen to it so I don't know but like 18 yeah but I mean

52:52Justin Tranter:it definitely touches what what do you think as a dystopian yeah I'm a fan of dystopia I can't wait We are living in dystopia. I can't wait for it to get more dystopia just because if it's going to happen, I want to see it. Jimmy, if the world's going to end, I want to see it. You want to watch it? I'm greedy. Let me see it. I don't want to die like 10 years before it ends. That would be awful. What do you feel like is the most dystopian thing we're living through right now? I mean, there is no most dystopian thing. It's literally everything. Yeah. It's everything. I think our phones are more dystopian than we're ever going to realize.

53:32Yeah, of course.

53:33Justin Tranter:It's going to take technology crumbling for then people like 200 years after it crumbles to be like, wait, what was available in the palm? That's not good. Our phones alone are so dystopian. I love that it's like a meme. It's not even a meme. I think it's just someone wrote something online. And, you know, that is a meme, I guess. I don't know. I'm old, ladies and gents. I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. But it's a meme. I think it's a meme. But it's like, I think it's like, we weren't supposed to know that this many people exist, let alone their thoughts. So true. And it's like, yeah.

54:12Like, it's just an echo chamber. And it's so scary. And it's just good to remember, I would say, like, the four corners of your existence. Like, what's in your present moment, you know? and yeah there's a song about exactly that oh there is, Chat Room it's about cyberbullying which I think it's like a six minute long song or something it's a long one but it's a really good one about cyberbullying and the internet and social media and stuff too the album does tackle a lot of different things like climate crisis you know like body dysmorphia

54:53Justin Tranter:Morpheia billionaires you're pro billionaire right there's a whole anthem just like cheering them on

55:15no yeah that one's Monopoly man which is also a favorite track I love that track that that one makes me want to dance every time oh god i just want to yeah um but yeah there's i mean there's so many different songs like i i can't even i always blink whenever i try to look through it all all them but like houselessness crisis as well there's um god it just there's so many yeah yeah it i mean anything you can possibly think of that's happening right now there's probably a song Oh, Vatican. That one's, I was going to say it. I was like, are we going to talk about it? Yeah, no, no. But Vatican also, amazing.

55:56Okay, funny story about Vatican, though, because people don't, I mean, when they hear the album, they'll know. But we actually wrote that song the day before the Republican National Convention. Yes. And so, and you know how, like, Grindr, like. Sure do. Yeah, Grindr had, like, what was it? It was like a. It crashed. It crashed. Yeah, exactly. There was too many people using Grindr.

56:19Justin Tranter:at the Republican National Convention. Yeah, at church. Like the same, yeah. Yeah, so, which we thought was like so, like. Perfect. Yeah, just perfect timing. So that's the Vatican. Yeah, so anyway, that's Vatican in a nutshell. But yeah, I mean. So you wrote that? The day before. The day before. So you wrote it before it happened or you wrote it after it happened? No, before, the day before. So you manifested. I don't know if I manifested it. I don't think I'm that powerful of a manifester. I think these things are playing out all the time. what's the worst thing you've ever manifested um god I mean how many relationships I'm just kidding I'm just kidding that's a perfect answer okay so near the end of every episode we play a little game called gag or drag gag is if you love something drag is if you hate it well I love everything then we've also added a meh option if you just don't really care and you're like why did you ask that I hate you Okay, so gag or drag, three interludes before track four.

57:24Three interludes before track four.

57:26Justin Tranter:Gag, gag, gag. Yeah, I'm liking that. That sounds cool. Three interludes, who's done that? I like that. Yeah. We should do that. We should do it. I feel like I think Morgan wrote that question because she feels like you could probably do it. I want to do that. Yeah, I want to do that. Okay, gag or drag, killing off a character mid-album. gag yeah yeah cool yeah gag for the drama yeah yeah i like that i like that too these are great ideas yeah morgan's this is the podcast is a collaboration i'm not gonna take any credit thank you i love these ideas no i don't have to be a mean mean lesbian to you anymore gag or drag fans decoding lyrics like it's a murder case I mean listen they're gonna do it so it's a gag it's a gag you gotta support it and it just means they're invested they care about it they care about the art and that I'm down for it yeah gag or drag being asked to over explain the lore as I just spent an hour asking you to explain the lore drag only you get the pass I don't think I I don't think I asked you to over explain no okay good okay did you write that one to set me up Morgan was that to maybe We'll talk about it later.

58:41Justin Tranter:Gag or drag, staying sonically safe because it worked last time. Drag, drag, drag. Yeah, drag. Drag. Very much drag. Gag or drag, letting TikTok dictate production choices. Drag. Drag. It's usually like, what's blowing up on TikTok? Let's do the opposite. Why? Also, listen, I don't enter sessions, and I need to ask you this. do people come into sessions these days and ask you really to make songs that go viral on TikTok? Is that really a thing that happened? I will proudly answer this question, honestly. That scares me. Because I didn't work the first year of COVID at all because my parents live with me and I was not going to fuck with that.

59:23Justin Tranter:So coming back post-vaccine when TikTok had fully just taken over our business, there were some crazy things that first year, like crazy requests. Now, I always like, like you, like you said, you love everything. I love everything. I like to choose the positive of it. For me, the positive were like, lyrics are my favorite part of writing. The positive of all the sudden executives thinking about trends was that they wanted exciting lyrics because for the most part, unless it was an instrumental thing that was going viral, It was the lyric was dictating the trend. So it was the first time in my career I had executives like really being excited about my weird lyric choices.

1:00:08Justin Tranter:I see. That's a fresh take. I see. That is an interesting perspective. It's like because people are utilizing music as a way to create content, they're looking for some sort of lyrically exciting snippet or something, and it gives you an opportunity to be able to have that space for that. And push a boundary or two. That's cool. That's cool, yeah. You know, like, I think like a song like Cake by the Ocean, I was just lucky that the executives were willing to make a song that weird, the single. Where post-TikTok, the weirder the lyric, the happier people are. Really? Where like, when I wrote Cake by the Ocean, I knew in my heart it was a hit.

1:00:52Justin Tranter:But I was like, there's no way they're going to make a song called I Keep on Hoping I Eat Cake by the Ocean, a single. This is insane. But I just got lucky there. But now post TikTok, the weirder the lyric, the better, which has been kind of nice. But yes, people get, for me, what really, really kills, because I can like turn everything into creativity if I work hard enough. But what I can't do is like, if we're trying to guess the part that's going to go viral, we're all failing. Yeah, of course. And so that's like, let me just be bold if that's the directive, because you're hoping that I can do.

1:01:24Justin Tranter:But if we want to get specific and guess what's, No one can. No, no. No one can. There's a weird AI machine deciding that that's going to kill us all. So that's just fine. Okay, gag or drag, leaving in vocal imperfections. We do it all the time. We do it all the time, yeah. It's gag. It's like gag and drag for me because I'm a little bit of a perfectionist, which is like to a fault. You should see, oh, my God, vocal comping is so hilarious. CJ will be like, this sounds great, and I'll look at him and be like, CJ, but do you hear that little like, right before my little, Do you hear the way I'm going, before I'm trying to sing a word with an H?

1:02:00You know, it starts with an H. This is true. I have this new thing. Every time I sing any word with an H, I always do this little, like, it's like I'm nervous or something. I go, like right before.

1:02:11Justin Tranter:That's true. This is the thing. Yeah, it happens every time. Wait, but do you hear it too? Or is it just something that she's hearing? He now hears it. I now hear it because I'm attuned to that now. But there are times where she'll have a scratch in her throat. and to me, it's so exciting. Texture. And you'll be like, oh, I don't know, it's got a scratch and then we'll listen and make another comment. Yeah, it just depends on like how, like if it turns into something that's unique and like interesting and we like it, then we're like, yeah, sure. But most of the time, I'm pretty crazy. But she's a perfectionist.

1:02:42Yeah, I'm a pretty, yeah. Like we'll sometimes do like 50 takes. Or more. Or more. We've done 100 takes before. She was like 50. 50. I was like, we call me lazy, 50 takes. Yeah. I want to do it until it's right.

1:02:56Justin Tranter:Okay, gag or drag label notes. Do you get label notes? No, I don't know what those are. I was going to say, I feel like you've created a world where you probably don't get those. No, I don't know what those are. Oh, fuck, that must be so cool. It's so cool, but it's also like, I got kind of used to that with this with her. And if there's another project where there are labels, I'm like, what are you doing? Why are you sending me this? How many songs have you written? Wow. Now, I think you've accomplished a lot of awesome things. Building a world where you don't get label notes. For anyone who doesn't understand, this woman, that's a powerful thing.

1:03:34Justin Tranter:Okay. Gag or drag people projecting on to your characters? I don't know. Once you make a character and it's out there, it's for them to do whatever they want with. I think it's whatever. I don't know. I guess I'm like, meh. I'm like, I don't care, I guess. It's that one. Was that an option, right? It was totally an option. Okay, meh. Yeah, okay, great. Meh. Meh.

1:04:02Justin Tranter:Gag or drag a piece of lore. This is only for you. Or actually, no, for both of you. A piece of lore that even CJ doesn't understand. Piece of lore. I'm gagged. I'm all about it. I'm in. Even CJ doesn't understand. Like, the lore goes so deep that even your main collaborator can't understand that. I mean, gag, but also, is there any of them? I don't think there's... There might be. There's dark pockets up there. Yeah, I definitely have details. I have, you know, but I'm pretty communicative of the lore with CJ. I like talking about it. Yeah, we talk a lot about the lore. It's true. Okay, full circle questions just to wrap us up here.

1:04:43Justin Tranter:When fans... You explained about things that you hope they understand for this album specifically. but this is this one's for both of you guys like when in in what do you hope that like your music is bringing to people if you could pick like one hope for it i know that's a big lofty question but i think it's your hope for me i think it's that you can make anything you want any idea you have you can make into an idea you want to turn the sound of a grasshopper into a drum like you can you can do it and you should do it. And I need to hear your grasshopper snare. Yeah. I want to hear that. Should we do like a unfamous challenge grasshopper snare?

1:05:22Justin Tranter:I love that. I love that. That's really beautiful. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, um, a level of like just staying inspired, but I think just, just being yourself, you know, as an artist, uh, people, people out there who are inspired to create, um, or even if they're just, they don't create, um, and they're, you know, just listening to the album and resonating with it. They take anything away just to be themselves because it's a very crazy world with social media and everybody trying to be something that they're not because they want to be loved and accepted as we do as humans. But just, I hope that they get that sense of like, yeah, like anything is possible, stay inspired, but really just be authentically yourself.

1:06:09And that's it. I love that.

1:06:11Justin Tranter:I love that. So important. And then last question, because this is the love of collaboration. What is the best thing you've learned to make yourself a better collaborator? If there's like one thing that you feel like as a collaborator, you weren't doing at your best. For me, just to try to give context, like I realizing that knowing my weaknesses is a huge strength because then I can pick collaborators to fill in those gaps instead of thinking, let me just do it all. Let me be amazing at everything. Let me just get better at what I'm really good at. Yeah, absolutely. And that's when I realized that, I'm like, okay, so I'm not really good at modern melodies.

1:06:53Justin Tranter:I can handle old school rock melodies and I can handle so many other things, lyrically, structure. If I want modern melodies, I just have to work with those people or else I'm going to fail. And learning that weakness as myself as a collaborator, that's when my whole life went crazy because I was just, I try to do something I'm not good at. That was my big. That's great. The missing piece to the puzzle and making it the best it can be, yeah. I think just like staying open to learning new ideas and new processes, new ways of working. I mean, like I said, I learned so much from CJ and there's, I mean, there's so many things that like I like to do creatively, but when I'm in a room with him, I just, I like to, you know, I like to see his process and how he's working.

1:07:42And there's, I want to learn a lot about even production. And like, this is my guy. Like he's, he's gonna, if there's anyone who's gonna like help me get there and like help me learn and grow, it's, it's gonna be him. And I'm, I'm so grateful that I found him as a collaborator because of that. Cause we get to build and grow and create and learn. It's just, it's a vibe. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. And honestly, same point to that. First of all, you are an amazing producer and there she is producing some songs. on this record. Cool. So, yes. But one amazing thing about Melanie is knowing that I don't have to think about the lyric really at all.

1:08:15Because she's so good. Yeah. And I just know every lyric that comes out is a gift, actually. So I'm just there as like, all right, how do I help build the world around this lyric with her?

1:08:28Justin Tranter:Is that something that you knew as a collaborator all the time? Or is that something that she like, her being so good at? It's a different thing with her. Yeah. Even with every artist, you have different dynamics. But with her, she's the captain. She's driving the ship, and I'm just trying to smooth the waters out. I'm trying to wade for me. I think that's such an important thing that I think so many of us, especially when we're young, we're so desperate to be the leader. Totally. To be able to learn how valuable you can be as the support, as the follower. Absolutely. Being a really effective follower.

1:09:07Justin Tranter:You have to support. It's so important in collaboration. And like, I think that every artist, from what I've learned about friends who are artists as well, like the hardest thing is finding that collaborator who's going to create that environment for them to really be able to experiment and, you know, just also like fail as well. Like, you know, it's the same thing. It's what you're saying about getting into a session and you're scared that like, if you have a bad day, they're not going to work with you again. Like, I think that you'd be surprised how many artists also feel that way when they're in a session with a writer.

1:09:40You know, a lot of times artists are especially like when I was younger, I was not very experienced at all. I was entering those sessions as like a first time like writer with other people. And the first time I was meeting professional songwriters and producers. And so I was I was really scared. My perspective was not like, oh, like this person is not good at writing. My perspective was like, I hope that I'm a strong enough songwriter to be able to collaborate with this amazing songwriter that's in the room with me right now, you know? And so I think we all are just kind of like trying to find that special person who gets us and sees us and wants us to, you know, shine.

1:10:20Yeah. There's an actual thing with that, though. I remember there was this weird neuroscience seminar thing that I went to, and they were talking about how when you enter a room and your first movement is something that you're worried about or your first action is something that you're worried about. So say you're not really great at doing a lyric, and the first thing you do is try to do a lyric. Your brain actually closes down. So then the rest, I think for three hours or something like that, you can no longer access that part of your brain. Oh, no. So they always say when you, no, it's like a real thing.

1:10:54So if you go in and you start the session, it's just something that feels really good instantly. It actually brightens it. And you have all this extra access that you didn't. I think when we work, it's just that vibe. We come in, we're laughing within 30 seconds and trying something fun. And the world's our oyster there. It's true. I love that.

1:11:11Justin Tranter:That's amazing advice. Amazing. You're both so talented and so smart. And thank you. Thank you. And also thank you so much for looking so glamorous. Thank you. It's so inspiring for me to get to talk to someone who looks chiquer than me. It's not often. It's not often. So thank you for making me look like trash. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations.

1:11:50Justin Tranter:And also, pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday.