MUNA | Evolving Together, Creative Tension and Making Dancing On The Wall

25:53Justin Tranter:that to me collaboration is always hard long-term collaboration is even harder i think it's way willing to talk about things that are consistently hard that you have to work past because the reason I'm doing this is not to just like put content out I do think the collaboration is the most beautiful thing ever but it's also hard as fuck so like this is very interesting to me that like me too it feels like so you feel like one of the main points of friction is that it's like the two of you agree on things quicker and then well it's like two against one it's also because Naomi and I will work alone the most together too Ah.

26:32Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I mean, like, I mean, it's also just, like, no matter what, because there are three of us. Yep. Like, we can. There's always, like, shifting dynamics. Yeah, there's, you know what I mean? Like, it's bound to happen, even if it's, like, real or not real, that someone can feel, like, left out of the group.

26:48Justin Tranter:Yep. I think that there's two things that come up. The first one is that, which is kind of this feeling of like, yeah, like my idea, like I can have a fear of like my ideas won't be listened to or, or yeah, like this like two against one thing. But also that goes back to this thing of like oftentimes like it's because they're moving at a fat, like they know that something isn't going to work. It's like they are right. Don't show me this clip. But sometimes save it. in the future alternatively sometimes your ideas that i might initially or that we might initially totally poo yeah are like prescient and like you know what's funny actually i actually think that sometimes what i have to do is like mock up and i like i have to mock something up you feel like i make it really easy for it to get like integrated so it's like i don't when you say mock up like mock up a demo.

27:46Justin Tranter:I'm doing it in Ableton. And like a literal like making a demo. Yeah, gotcha. I think like the song, I think there are like different types of songs in terms of like ones where we got to figure out what the song actually is. And that's the song that's the most contentious because it can go through many iterations that almost cause death to the song. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you can really kill a song. I thought you were making a joke but like someone in the band dies. Or a song that just we know exactly what it is and like that is what it is. Yeah. And that's a rare thing. I think it's the other songs that then you'll be like, I need to spoon feed you this for us to like get, you know what I mean?

28:21To understand. To understand. Yeah. And the other thing that I'm thinking of is, and we touched on it earlier, is like kind of like our different desires for like how we collaborate. Like Joe really does want to, like Joe would prefer, I feel like you'd prefer we'd be in the room together for a lot of the creative process. Totally. And Naomi and I both are like more isolationist. Like it's like I need to go on a walk to the river to have a song and then I'll come back. It's like hard for me to hear myself think when I'm in a room with other people. And I think it's similar with you, like with like, again, like musical trauma.

29:05And I think this is true with a lot of musicians. And just being like an only child. Totally. You don't want to like mess up in front of other people.

29:11Justin Tranter:An only child in a band. The drummer who is, we work together on stuff to this day all the time. Only child. And there was, it was in the early days of the band. It was just like he would have something that I always read as extreme negativity. But I'm the youngest of four siblings. Totally. Totally. And so. How would it show up? Just like he would not be nearly as excited about something that I was very excited about. Right. Okay. And he just like wasn't used to sharing. Like just in the simplest things of like, we're on tour for years. And like all of a sudden he's brushing his teeth with a pink toothbrush, which is clearly mine.

29:47Justin Tranter:And I'm like, how is this? That's a very extreme funny version. But like as an only child, it's just like, was it? That would be a hard line for us. The toothbrush was a hard line for me. I think that would happen. You're not going to. I think that would happen. I don't think I would be the one using someone else's toothbrush. No, it would be Katie. Under any circumstance. it would totally be Katie no offense but I think I do need to like I sometimes yeah I have the same thing of like I can't think yeah because also we move so fast and we're all all talking and having ideas at the same time yeah that like and when you're and you're in control of those ideas and when they happen yeah yeah yeah so sometimes I'm like okay I need to I have an idea but there just literally aren't enough hours in the day yeah in a session when you're making an album for three years to like do it then and there.

30:41Yeah. To the best of, to the most, to make it the most like presentable. Right. Yeah. You feel like you can do it the best if you have some time alone.

30:48Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. Where I can like not waste, it really just feels like you're wasting everyone's time sometimes. And then people are watching you just figure something out alone. It's embarrassing. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's, that's why I would never, ever like try to touch a computer in a session because it's just like, I can't imagine. I can't, I have trouble sending an email. Yeah. Totally. Is there a moment you can think of that if you didn't have this deep collaboration from writing together, from making music together, is there a business moment that you felt like there's no way you would have survived if you didn't have the language of collaboration?

31:25All of it. I mean, I think the thing that maybe this is answering the question or maybe it's not, Muna is something that isn't us individually. So there's always been this core belief in this thing that is outside of us, that when we've been in a place of absolute dire straits, like financially or in terms of like our interpersonal dynamic, belief in the idea of this thing has always been like the North Star of all of our decisions. And so I think that has always helped us in any decision that we've made as a band. Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.

32:16Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.

32:29Justin Tranter:Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Allerge your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

33:05Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. It's, I don't know. Maybe that is collaboration. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think there are like, it goes back to the, like the, I don't know. There's like an ineffable sort of like aspect to the project where it is just, there are like invisible constraints around the project and like, it's helpful in a way because we all know like what we need to be bringing to the project to meet the moment that the project is in or whatever, like almost that there's, there's something there. Yeah. I, yeah. I, I think, I think for all of us, like it being a band, like helps filter the like anxiety that the attention can cause and gives it more of a purpose.

34:03Like it's not like any of our individual like names. So it's like, this is like the me show or something like. yeah it's funny like I think we've learned so much about like yeah compromise and also like trust I think the thing that hasn't really changed is like that we trust each other's like insight and intuition and and taste yeah um yeah I honestly it's like it's funny you asking this question it's like the other thing about us is that we are really involved in each other's lives Like we just are friends who hang out and like navigate life together. And it's like, I feel really sad for, it's so crazy to me that most people aren't in bands.

35:05Justin Tranter:us. See you next Wednesday. And what's also very interesting for me of the other conversations I've had already on doing this podcast is normally it's everyone like collaborates to make the thing and then one person has to go around the whole world to sell it. Totally. And you guys get to go sell it together. Do you think that that's better or worse? It's better. It's better. Sorry. So the fact that your answer is it's better to do it together means that no matter what drama you maybe have gone through personal or creatively that you actually like each other and to get people to no matter what bullshit's going through the day that they can remember that they like each other so like let's keep doing this together is not normal maybe it's like i don't know if it's even like but it's like deep how cool for you deep respect i don't know if i know no no but i think it's i think it's like deeply I respect them I respect them but no but I mean it's care I think it's like because sometimes I don't like them because they're my siblings yeah totally I love them and I have reverence for what we've created together and like who they are as people you know what I mean I think it's like it's just like this weird I mean like we're just it's just thick you know what I mean it's just yeah but yeah I do think there is something about like yeah we don't hate each other us being able to we I mean we have toured in every imaginable circumstance like so we had a van where we had to tape black trash bags over all the windows so that people didn't steal our stuff and we have all shared one hotel room so it's like two people are we're sharing a bed tonight we're sharing a bed tomorrow like and we did that for a very very long time way too recently yeah way too recently But it does, it did like, it really bonded us through these like experiences that just like no one else understands what it was like to like really believe in something that much to the extent that you're willing to like, you know, kind of pay for it with your like body and mind.

37:21I mean, it's just true. We wouldn't do it if that wasn't the case. But also we're really lucky in the sense that we've also built a like extended sort of family around the band. People that we met through like very dear friends who have become, you know, inextricable parts of our like touring, you know, situation. and we really value like loyalty to each other and like to the people that we involve in our project. Like we want people to feel like our win is theirs too because hopefully it is. And so yeah, there is like, you know, there's a belief in our like larger sort of -

38:06Justin Tranter:A big common touring apparatus as well. Yeah, no, I think it is the only way to survive the tough moments of any collaboration is like, is everyone keeping their eye on the common goal? And like, if you aren't, you're going to quit when things get tough. You mentioned earlier on that like, there was like artists that all of you love that overlapped. And I always ask a question of what ruined your life in the sense of like, for me, like when I heard Debbie Gibson on the radio talking about how she wrote her own songs. Now you're all younger than me. So I don't even know if you know who Debbie Gibson is, but I don't, but Debbie Gibson was a huge like teen pop star in the eighties.

38:48What songs?

38:49Justin Tranter:Um, electric youth out of the blue in your eyes. I can go on. I'm a big fan. Okay. Um, she has a Vegas show. You can go see it. Wow. And she was 16 years old and writing and producing everything. That's so cool. And it went, I remember being like five or six in like, you know, a shitty fucking minivan and my mom driving and going, Oh shit. I think I'm ruined now. The fact that like someone is writing this, that has to be me now. Oh, totally. Sealed your fate. All three of you remember what ruined your life and was like, oh fuck, I'm a musician for life. This is terrible. That is so funny. What a funny question.

39:27Oh God.

39:28Justin Tranter:It doesn't have to be as specific as Debbie Gibson in a minivan. It can be like - I like that though. And like giving a radio interview. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were a few moments for me that come up. My most mirrored experience with that one specifically is hilariously hearing the song Tim McGraw by Taylor Swift on my boombox radio and finding out that she was a teenager and writing her own songs. Because I was like, I was at that point, I mean, I started writing songs at like 10 when I got like could play a couple of chords on guitar. That's young. That was the point when I was like, yeah, it was.

40:19And I think I was really supported by my mom specifically was like really supportive of me like developing that as a songwriter. And like I played, you know, shows when I was, I think, starting like as a sophomore in high school. I don't remember what year that song came out, But I feel like there was a switch in terms of like.

40:41Justin Tranter:Probably 06, I think. Yeah, so I would have been like eighth grade. Yeah. Yeah. Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-CONTACTS. Oh, my gosh. They're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-CONTACTS.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-CONTACTS. Yeah. And then, like, culturally, this is also, I think I was ruined by the dopamine feedback as well of, like, face.

41:30I played an open mic night and I played like an original song when I was like a freshman in high school. And my close friend Ryan posted it on Facebook. And the like feedback, I remember like, you know, incessantly checking. I think I was chemically ruined. I'm worthy of love. I'm worthy of love. Yeah, I think that as well.

41:54Justin Tranter:Give me your Facebook thumbs up now. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Anybody else have a memory that's worth?

42:06It's hard because music has always been kind of like a part of, like a sort of a given in my life. Like I come from a family of musicians. I was trained starting at a very young age. It almost felt like a, I'm very grateful because it like formed me into the person that I am, but it did feel compulsory a little bit. Yep. And I was good enough at it where I got some, you know, like I was encouraged. Yeah. What was your first instrument? Piano. Piano. Yeah. I started playing piano when I was five or maybe a little earlier. That's a mom question. I'm not sure. Um, but yeah, I think I, I, because of like the jazz and classical background in my family, I didn't want to be a professional musician, even though I like, I loved music and I loved singing and I loved playing piano.

43:09and but I didn't like I didn't get pleasure from doing it like in front of other people or like performing and it became a kind of like private experience that I would have when I wasn't practicing yep um you know scales or whatever uh but I I started listening to music of my own volition when I was like nine or ten you know and there were a couple things that I heard that I was like transported by that definitely fits the question yeah the and I'm coming back to it uh now and I was texting Joe about it because I remember just listening to I had a tape player and I was listening to the tape for love deluxe the Sade album too good and that to for someone

43:55Justin Tranter:to be that attractive and that talented is I don't think that's natural I don't think it's right I think it's against god yeah yeah yeah so i was i was like i i you know i'm that like the image of like what are the meme of like your spirit like exploding out of your body those things that i was so moved imagining you with your little by i love i just i just i just loved and i still i went back to it and i was like still smacks it really like tops the bottom okay this is super like music geek follow-up question what do you think it can if you had to like pick really quick rapid fire like what is it about it?

44:27Justin Tranter:Is it the chord? Is it the vocal? Is it? I think it is. I think I'm, I still, I'm pushed out of this like instinct that I have, but I think because of growing up around a lot of really complicated music, I love when a very simple loop can have like several different sections over it without the chords changing or the drum pattern and keep you really engaged in like, I'm, I'm really addicted to like that hypnotic effect that like, you know, a very kind of not simple. I mean the Sade album, there's like really amazing bass parts and the drums are incredible. And her voice obviously is like, you know, she has such an amazing, like Alto, not like Sarah Vaughan, but like that kind of rich tone I really do like.

45:12And I think I like like peculiar singing voices. I'm attracted to them. I think we all are. But yeah, I think it was like the hypnotic effect of it was really did something to me and kind of still.

45:25Justin Tranter:Well, I love you coming from like a very like academic musical background that like the brilliance in her simplicity is what sort of turned you on. Yeah. I think that that's really cool. And it also shows like anyone who's like a dick, pretentious dick about pop music. It's like, no, then you just don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, it takes a lot to be really effective. To be simple and effective. Really simple. And I think that also like can be some of the beautiful stuff about like, I don't know, they're like Bill Evans and Chopin pieces that do the same thing.

45:55And they're my favorites, the simplest ones. So yeah, that was part of it. But also Steve, I heard Edge of 17 and that kind of just blew my mind too. I was like, oh, I didn't understand they let women be rock stars. That's cool. Yeah. And I started getting into like rock music after I heard that. And I was thinking like 10 or something.

46:20Justin Tranter:I mean, those are both pretty impressive places to start. Stevie Nicks and Shawnee. I'm still there. I'm stuck. Naomi grew up with a very good music encyclopedia in terms of what they were raised on. Do you remember yours? Shout out to my family. I mean, like in a way, it's just, it's really funny because I think I've fallen in and out of love with like music as I've aged. Yep. But like from the time I existed, I just knew it was what I was going to do for whatever reason. My dad used to show me like movies like The Last Waltz and, you know, we'd listen to like Neil Young and stuff like that and go to like see Heart, you know.

47:01But I just. So special. I just knew I was just going to do it for some odd reason. You know, I think about like all of us and I and I think about like even the band and it's funny. It's like I think this is like a gift of the young where it's like you just knew you were going to do something. And I feel like we just have always known that we were going to do this and do this together.

47:24Justin Tranter:Yep. I think that's like what makes someone successful is just having that like blind belief. And I don't know if I'd have that like now in my life, but it's the same feeling I had when I was like eight to the feeling I had when we were, I don't know, 20. Yes. Yeah. Deciding to do it. Is there something that you wish you could like tell the band, you and starting the band 13 years ago that you could say now about the art of collaboration? Is there wish, is there something you'd be like, Hey guys, let's skip this step by just like learning this cheat code of how to like talk or write or. Oh, about collaboration.

48:00about collaboration. Probably being kinder to each other, but you have to be mean to learn how to be kind, probably. Like, you know what I mean to other people? That's a bar.

48:09Justin Tranter:That's, yeah. And also, we kind of had to experience everything that we did. I would say, like, the things, the advice that I would give would really have nothing to do with the three of us. Like, really. I mean, it would be like, be yourself sooner. Totally. Totally. But you have to not be yourself, I think. And like, don't listen to people when they tell you, Totally. Objectively crazy things about yourself that aren't true. Yeah, we were subjected to some bad stuff at certain points. Definitely. So is everyone who's queer. Right. Just like styling. Yeah, I mean. But also just people not understanding who we are.

48:48Justin Tranter:When you say styling, do you wish you would have given yourself advice on better styling or that people were saying horrible things to you about styling? I mean, for me, I would have maybe said like, actually, no. I have no notes. I was going to say, it's for me. You don't need it. It's for us. It's not for you. That haircut's iconic. The haircut is iconic. The T-boss is fair. I would have told myself that what I've learned through all these years of collaboration is don't get that haircut. You don't actually need the haircut. I think she needed it. Yeah, I think, no, actually, she did need it.

49:19You did need it. It was iconic. It was really I actually know exactly

49:23Justin Tranter:what you're talking about and it's iconic. It's so iconic. Okay, so rapid fire fun, fun part. Cute. is gag or drag. So gag means you love it. Gag. Totally. Drag means hate it. Interesting. And we've also learned that some people need the meh option that you just don't actually care. Okay. Unfortunately, it's probably going to be a lot of meh. Okay. We'll see. Being labeled a queer band in every article before anything is spoken about your music. This is a leading question. Drag, slack, drag. Like whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It is like, you know. It changes for me. Because even as a songwriter, I still get queer.

50:03Justin Tranter:Like, I would say 80 % of the headlines, the headline has to do with how fucking gay I am. And some days I'm like, that's fucking right. That's right. I'm sucking dicks on the reg. And the other half of the time, I'm like, but. I'm just the best. You're not talking about that way with Max Martin. It's so weird. Yeah, totally. It does seem like creepy a little bit sometimes. You're just so interested in what we're doing. Yeah, you're, and yet, I think it can, unfortunately, like be used as a tool to undermine your artistry. A hundred. And I think that is a huge drag. Huge drag. Yeah. Yeah. But also, you know, if people need to read that to be interested in us and then they become, they're coming, the concert's crying, then that's great.

50:44And representation is ultimately more important than not.

50:47Justin Tranter:Yes. Than us being pissed about it. Yes. That's how I, when I like call myself down, I'm like, well, how cool that someone can read about this. Yeah. Yeah. Fans thinking that they're entitled, and this is not leading all the, first one was leading, you're right. You're trapping us. I swear, I swear. This is what I'm actually curious about. Fans thinking that they're entitled to information about your personal lives. You know what? Our fans are really respectful. Like, I don't know why. I feel like. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gagged by. You gagged. I think it's because they are specific fans. No, I think it's because they're like little queer kids who like.

51:21Justin Tranter:Respect boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's something. It's funny because it's like low key, like I'm sharing a lot of information. Read the lyrics. Yeah. I'm like, they have it, you know? So like, I guess that makes sense. Lesbians insisting on living on the east side. Gag. Gag. Where else would I go? We're safe over there. I'm trying to move further east. East and western is where we're safe. I need like a mountain close to me. You know what I mean? I think it keeps you gay. No, I feel you. I thought this was my dream neighborhood and I'm like, I need to get on the other side of Western. This just feels fucking weird.

52:00If you're really got to get on the other side of the LA River, it's the truth. Oh, okay, wow. I don't know if I can do that. That's deep. But that's deep lesbian territory. I can go even deeper.

52:12Justin Tranter:Setting boundaries and being called difficult. Is gag. Gag. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think. But I also read something really interesting this morning that was about like it was like angelina's like 2026 prediction like different cultural creators and somebody was like i feel like um like therapy speak is going to be like out in this next little bit like it's like i do actually feel a cultural fatigue of hearing about boundaries like boundaries holding space themselves are i don't think people know what boundaries are right so i definitely I think boundaries are actually, I mean, like it's boundaries are more of an internal thing than an external thing.

52:53And I heard a huge bar from my friend Christine last night about boundaries. You want to hear it? Please. Okay. If this is a somebody else's quote, but I don't know whose quote and sorry to that person. I was about to say something. Sorry to this man. Sorry to this man. Sorry to this boundaries, man. Um, boundaries is the distance from which I can love you and myself at the same time. Totally. That's great. You like that? Yeah. It's a bar.

53:18Justin Tranter:Yeah. It's a bar. That's a bar. Yeah. I love it. There was, I skipped it because we talked about so many other things, but this came up in the rapid fire section. So it's not rapid fire anymore, but I'm very curious. What is something, talking about boundaries and therapy speak, Like, what is something that you have learned to say no to as collaborators? Hmm. Wait, what do you mean? Like, I have learned to be like, I don't have to do everything. I don't have to. To take every session? Every session. I don't have to, like, finish this fucking song that I don't think is good. Like, is there something that you feel like you can say no to now that you couldn't before?

53:56I feel like I said no to too much. You're really good at saying almost too good. Yeah, I think I really held myself back. and I'm in more of a yes zone. Okay, I love that. That's so interesting. I love that. I think we have, we have like good, we can be martyrs too. Sometimes we have good, yeah, yeah. I've been told no more Muna Martyr. I like Muna Martyr. We will always be, we'll always do good things. Well, of course. I think there, we sometimes can maybe spread ourselves a little thin. and like you know you know what i really don't want to have to do anymore well it's not gonna happen i'm excited i really don't like doing things that are going to move the needle i i don't if i get if anyone ever says that to me again gag or drag moving the needle it's the most complete drag yeah it's us playing an acoustic set for people who hate us guess what no one knows what's gonna move the needle and it's like we're in vegas on a rooftop playing for people who are in a pool while a DJ is playing.

55:01We've done some of the most great things you could ever imagine. That's just the truth. That's like a true thing that's happened. Wait, but okay, this is what this is making me realize is that my no is actually like a no. I've learned to not explain myself every time that I say no to something. Powerful. Like if we don't want to like do a like collaboration with a certain brand or something like that, It's like, we don't have, if like, I don't have to like fight with somebody about it. It's enough for me to just say like, I don't need to do that. And I don't need to spend any more energy on why I'm not going to do that.

55:38Justin Tranter:I'm kind of getting there now too. No brands want to collaborate with me in that sense, but in the sense of like. No, that's not true. That can't be true. No, never. No. I hate this. Well, this is what the podcast is for guys. Reach out. But no, I've gotten to the place of like, no, I just don't want to do that session. Right. And I'm not going to explain to whoever. It's a publisher, a manager, whoever. I'm just, nope, nope. Don't want to do it. That's so good. And that is okay. And it's hard to learn that. Okay, let's do. Oh, gag or drag reading comments? Because I know some artists actually love to read the comments.

56:11Justin Tranter:Drag. I think in this phase, drag previously may be gag. But I think like when you are. Why was it a gag previously? Because I think when you're in. Some of our fans are really funny. I think when you're in a, maybe you're less exposed to. Random haters. people who might dislike you for reasons that are out of your control. Yep. I think when you're a small band, some of the comments are just a gag. And some people are really funny. Yeah, some people are funny. And they make funny memes and like do funny stuff. And I like all that stuff. And I'm honestly one of my, I think it is going to be, this is going to be something that's just like another trend, but I'm happy to be like jumping on it.

56:51I don't want to be as online as I've been in the past. I think I've been hyper online. like very online, chronically so. Yeah, chronically so. And I don't want - Some could say. I just want to be a person and protect like, you know, my divine essence. But also you used to be able to sort of protect

57:11Justin Tranter:what you were seeing online. And with TikTok, they're going to show you something that you really don't want to see. You'll see the worst thing of yourself of all time. About yourself. I don't want to know what's going on anymore. I don't want to see that photo. I don't want to see that photo. I don't want to see that. I don't want to see, yeah, all, yeah. I just don't think you need to think about yourself as much as we're forced to. Some photos and angles of yourself you shouldn't see. No, legally speaking, I don't want to see that. Legally speaking, don't show me that angle. Okay, last gag or drag.

57:42Justin Tranter:And this is really because I just need to vent with it with people who understand. Gag or drag being asked about politics in almost every interview when you're supposed to just be talking about the structure of a chorus. Listen, go to our highlights. You'll learn everything you need to know about our politics based on the shirts we've worn, the things we've said, the things we say in our songs. I'm assuming this is a, you're in a drag moment with this. And I have to hear more about this. It's just, I know for a fact that no other hit makers, it's weird to say that about myself, but that's what we're called.

58:20Justin Tranter:Facts are facts, America. no other hit makers are being asked to comment on any recent legislation no it is not a thing that any other but you better be up on the reading yeah of course you better have done the homework and it's like it's your gay duty it's really insane for me and i'm like if this interview is about that and i feel like this is a platform that i could maybe help somebody learn something or he sure but if we're supposed to be doing like a retrospective of my career and half the interview is about like am I afraid to use they them pronouns in Trump's America I'm just like wait right it like affects the nervous system I was talking about melodic math 12 seconds ago yeah yeah yeah that definitely I need you to speak more on that actually yeah melodic math melodic math I don't know if I know like if the verse starts before the one okay yeah oh sure you've taught us a few tricks I love it I know melodic math is good though I'd be interested in hearing like, you know, we've had internal conversations about like, I feel like your opinion these days is like that.

59:30It's interesting. Like, do you identify as an activist and like as and or like an organizer?

59:38Justin Tranter:I definitely identified as an activist for a very long time. Ever since I was in high school, like I started a literal like variety show to raise money for local HIV and AIDS charity. I just feel like this is so part of your identity. In like the mid nineties when like doing that as a teenager was crazy. So it is a part of who I am. But like now in some ways the word activist makes me cringe in terms of myself. Because there are people who are full-time activists. That's their job. That's their life. I don't want to take something away from them because I can like, I can post a story to my 250 ,000 followers and I can donate money to causes.

1:00:15Justin Tranter:Like that doesn't make me a full-time activist. but yes it is been a part I have been involved in like raising money whether I had the money yet or not I haven't involved in raising money for good causes my whole life right or since I was old enough to figure it out yeah so it is a part of who I am but like the term activist like you you see like I kind of think you are because I think you have you have some you have so much power and like such a big platform and you're very aware of how you use it. And like, I just think that, yeah, that's the energy I get from you is that you like are trying to like rise to an occasion.

1:00:55And the thing about that is that it's really exhausting.

1:00:58Justin Tranter:It's exhausting. It is. And I think it's okay to be like annoyed by it. Put it in it, put it in it. It's exhausting. I agree with both of what, I agree with aspects of what both of you are saying. I do think like the thing that I resonate with, with what you're saying, Justin is like, there is a level to which people value like celebrity opinion that's weird that's weird totally yeah and like i think there i i hope we're in the middle of a cultural change regarding that i mean it's not that what people in the entertainment industry think cannot be you know impactful and important literally and like have you know adverse or positive effects i think we take it upon ourselves to be like very politically informed and outspoken but i i would hesitate to call myself an activist i think i'm like i think i think about politics a lot and it consumes a lot of my time but i i yeah i do hear what you're saying about like giving respect to people who actually are organizers and who are like you know dealing with like community land trusts like our friend who we're talking to the other night like i'm not i'm like doing my i'm like doing my thing in a different way.

1:02:08I think there's like,

1:02:10Justin Tranter:and thank you for saying I rise to the occasion because I do try. I do care. Yeah, yeah, of course. And caring's exhausting. But it's in moments where I'm like, how did this interview about pop music turn into this? That's frustrating. And also like, I might not be educated on all of it and I might fuck it up. It's just a fucking totally stressful. I hate that. Stressful. Totally. And the last thing is like, this is a really exhausting time where I think a lot of us are being asked to like ramp up our organizing and our activism. And like, I'm starting to think about kind of like how to be judicious about, cool pronunciation of that word.

1:02:49I knew what you meant. About that. And like, if we're having to give a speech about politics in like every interview that we're giving, it's like, I think there's like a finite amount of energy. And it's like, I need to save that for like the spaces where I'm actually having like those conversations and strategizing with people. Yeah. And like not give it to, you know, someone from BuzzFeed.

1:03:11Justin Tranter:Also like... Sorry. What year is it? I don't know why BuzzFeed caught that stray. But also like for me, like being able to like really focus on pop music and make a bunch of money and give it to full-time activists, I'm learning like is my actual superpower. Yeah, yeah. Like I have access to things that can like give full-time people their thing. Their redistributor. Yeah, that's great. And so funny, I was making a joke about how annoying is it that we have to talk about politics in every interview and then we all just did it. Yeah. Unfortunately, we could go forever. I mean, I joined into it.

1:03:40Justin Tranter:That wasn't shade to you. That was shade to all of us. I feel like what's so beautiful about talking about collaboration with your collaborators is that you're allowed to talk about things. If you were doing an interview alone, you maybe aren't sure if you could say. And you guys were so wonderfully kind with sharing like some of the harder parts of collaboration. so I think what would be super cool is what is your favorite part of collaborating with each other cutie do you know what I mean yeah because I can think with my main collaborators I could like think of two things for each of them right now can you can you choose too many think of one one that you're your favorite thing about each person when you when you're making music together well there's favorite things about each person but also like the first thing that enters my head is like we've had a lot of like um synchronicity moments in making this album where it's like we're all it's such a good feeling to have like a mind meld you're laughing at the dog shake it sorry um i wish you could see it's really he really he's he wants to he's testing it oh um mind meld mind meld and it's like where we all have like the same idea about what a song needs in the same moment Like it's just so gratifying because it's like, we worked really hard on, you know, like honing our instincts in that way.

1:05:07Yeah. And it's like, yeah, either like, so it's like mind meld, but also there are things where like, sometimes you get like so surprised by something. Like there are things that they'll do if I'm like not in the studio and then like I'm returning and it's like, they made a song so much cooler. It's just like, not to be like that, like, that what I'm most grateful for is like not having to do labor to make something better. But honestly, that is amazing. But that's part of what you do that I don't want to do at all.

1:05:38Justin Tranter:So it's fine. The point of collaborating is that someone's helping. Right. Yeah. I think it's very fair to celebrate that someone slayed it while you were like drinking with your partner. I think that's totally fine to celebrate that. Yeah. It's the best. I think they're similar to what you're saying. I think with this record in particular, it's always fun when you just like, you know you've made something good. You like send the demo to the text group and then we're like all being excited about it. I think we can all get really like psyched on stuff when we feel like something good has happened or like it's fun to like, I don't know, just talk about something a couple days later and be like, wait, this song actually is bangs or something.

1:06:26And that's really fun and exciting.

1:06:31Justin Tranter:It's like sharing the fruits of your labor. Yeah, it's really fun. And there is a magic about like when it's not the world going, oh my God, you guys, you slayed that song. It's just like only three people have heard it and the three people are you. And you're like, oh, fuck this. It has that little feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That little feeling for sure. Yeah. I mean, for me, I think it's that we make something that at least for me is stimulating in the sense of it being pop. But there's a complexity, I think, in the music that we make that satisfies me more than like the other things I get to do.

1:07:07And like it, I don't know, I know when we're going to make something, it's going to scratch that itch of it being pop and also being something that's like super chewy. Yeah. And it tastes the best. Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:21Justin Tranter:I fucking love it. I love it. Something that tastes good. Something that tastes good. And as someone who's been lucky enough to collaborate with you guys a couple times, I think a really valuable lesson that people could learn is that you're all willing to let everybody do everything, but everyone does in like an unspoken way sort of have like their assigned strength, right? So you're focusing on the story and the lyric, but very open to everyone else contributing to that. You're on the computer focusing on producing and you have an instrument in your hand almost at all times and are focusing on that.

1:07:57Justin Tranter:But what has been really cool for me to see is even though everyone has their unspoken assigned strength, that when somebody else jumps in with a lyric, with a production idea, with an instrument idea, you let it happen. and I think like you might you guys might be so used to that so me as an outsider anyone who's like trying to figure out how to collaborate it is a very cool thing of like we kind of know what each person does mainly but also totally acceptable to jump in and it's like and like actually kind of integral like it's really important it's really important if we just stuck to like these rigid roles as a band it's like that's actually like really denying everybody's personhood because it's like everybody has the potential to be like all of these things within the band.

1:08:48So it's important that we kind of like foster each other's movements in those ways.

1:08:53Justin Tranter:I love it. Okay. So we have two songs on the record. Yes. Girls, Girl. And then Mary Jane. The reason why I was unsure of the second song is because that's where there was a different process. Totally. So what is it like before we dig into the actual specifics of the song what is it like bringing in a guest star in your very long-term collaboration oh well it depends on who it is i think we're very i think i think because of like the in the inherent like insularity of our group like we're very particular about who we bring in and we don't bring in you know there's only a couple of songs on this album that are co-writes and it's with people we've worked with before like you and Leland and uh Dan Toshan who is amazing and yeah all people that we love and like have rapport with and relationships with we won't we won't um we typically won't do something if we aren't like on some kind of uh we don't have some kind of relationships like rapport rapport with because we all like need that to be able to like actually make the most of bringing someone in and their strengths and like being able to openly collaborate and not just like spend the entire time getting to know each other and then make like the worst song that's ever been made which has happened yeah I mean I think it's so it's what was so like pleasurable about working with you is that like that some of the things that I find to be really scary like I still find co-writing to be kind of scary yeah And like throwing out ideas with like, even just with them.

1:10:32Like, so let alone like somebody that I don't know as well. But it's like you are so seasoned at it that I think you can kind of like, you bring about this nonchalance to the process where it's like, it's fun and let's try it and let's be silly. And it's like no big deal. And you can kind of like trick people. So you deceived us. You deceived us into having a song.

1:10:54Justin Tranter:But we did have a lot of fun. Yeah, had a lot of fun. Yeah. There's also a shared understanding, I think, though, too. Yeah. Like, not to be like, well, because you're gay. But, I mean, like, there's an understanding. Because I'm gay. Because you're gay. There is a safety in terms of our mutual identities. Yeah. And there, I think, is, like, the more I do co-writing, like, outside of the band, there's something about queer people that you just get it. It's better. You know what I mean? And I think you're listening in a different way. to be honest. In our song Girl's Girl, right? In a gay way. Listening in a gay way.

1:11:34Justin Tranter:And in Girl's Girl, it's very much like inside lesbian baseball in terms of the verses. But in terms of the chorus, it's just like, oh, so you love everybody but me. Except for me. Except for me. Which is the whole world can relate to. Totally. But we were able to because, you know, I luckily have, I'm not just a fag. I have many lesbian friends. One of them sitting right there. Which is the best kind of gay. That's what we need. That sort of lesbian inside baseball for the verses, we could all have a blast with, but then be pop writers and make sure that chorus can relate to anybody being like, oh, so you love everybody, but fuck you.

1:12:19Yeah. And we were lucky also like on the day that that, we had that session, Like I did come in kind of like locked and loaded with like this crazy thing that had happened. Yeah. But you came in with the title. And you came in. Did I? Yeah, you did. You don't remember this? Oh, no. We have to give you your flowers. Oh, thank you. I was like, we were talking about like, I was like, it's crazy how you can find out like tea on somebody that you're interested in without even trying to just because of how connected like the lesbian web is. And like, I was like, I accidentally got like my heart. broken i wasn't even fishing for this information and like found out this person was fucking on somebody else and fucking on fucking on is iconic iconic and i don't know i don't know what happened just then but i loved it totally but yeah i and you were like i've i've been i've had this title in my head like girl's girl and it could be funny to be like um she's a real like she's a real girl's girl and kind of subverting the what that normally means and basically being like she's fucking on

1:13:23Justin Tranter:She's fucking on lots of girls. For songwriters that are out there, it's like you should write songs from activated places. Totally. Because it's true. I have this like gerotanical like I'm already like all like therapied and out and recovered. No one cares. No one cares. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So I think that that was really fun. Yeah. And then like it was like. It's a cheeky, fun, like unserious song, which we don't really normally. we have few do we have a few but they're fewer and further between we're like quite self-serious I think but I think also like that the other thing that came into play with that session was like you had that title in your back pocket I had like I think I had right I had written another song that was not a real song oh yeah yeah called people talk that was like a similar vibe of like this kind of like lesbian telephone game and like that song didn't work but I was like but that could work for the verses of this song like this idea of like um the the the chain of gossip and so it's like I think that's part of what you were pointing to in our in the other episode where you talking about like I have ideas that I'll be like toying on years and then they'll find a way It's like then those things get collaged together and make a real song.

1:14:49Justin Tranter:Yeah. Mary Jane, the second song we did together. What I think is so cool about this is, I'm just talking about myself, how about that? Is like a very much like genuine, real deal, personal growth for me. So we wrote a whole ass song. Two days later, you group text me and say, hey, changed a lot of the song. including every single lyric. This is a classic Katie thing though. Which though every, the lyrics are my favorite part of a song, right? I can work on all things. I can be a good collaborator on all of it, but lyrics are my favorite part. Me, six years ago, would be like, how fucking dare you?

1:15:30Justin Tranter:Damn. Me now, I went, awesome, I can't wait to press play. And then when you press play, you're hoping that's good. Oh yeah. But I was able to, at this point in my elderly state, actually be genuinely pumped and go, that was good. This is better. It makes more sense. Fuck yes. It actually was no bullshit a cool moment for me to like realize my own growth as a collaborator and go, it's great. I think I sent you back a voice note with like one tiny tweak, but it was like, everything is perfect. Maybe try this one thing, but if it sucks, I don't care. You changed the post chorus for us, which the song really needed.

1:16:10But yeah, I mean, that's really fascinating to hear. And I think like the feeling, I felt like low-key a little bit bad and sad about not having that idea for that song, like when we came in for the session. Yeah. Like, but also going back to this thing of like, some things are out of your control of like when. And I think like, yeah, we had written another like song that like it was, we use this terminology of like, it was cool, but it like wasn't real in the sense of like, I would like, we weren't feeling it in our like gut and heart, you know? And yeah, I think that's, I mean, I don't know if I would be in that place yet to like recognize.

1:16:58Justin Tranter:I'm much older than you. No, you're not. Yeah. Enough older than you. And I just hope as someone who was in a band for 10 years and now someone who's had this whole other career. I hope that y 'all realize like the fact that you're still doing this successfully and beautifully is really fucking cool. It's really, genuinely, as someone who is in a band and still choosing to be in this shit show of a business a million years later, like it's really awesome. And you should like all be very proud of each other. Thank you. And I think that like bands don't celebrate survival nearly enough. Oh, that's sweet.

1:17:36Justin Tranter:So like, thank you for surviving. thank you for surviving yeah love it stream our album come see us on tour bye