Recap: Caleb Hearon + Caitie Delaney on TV Writing, Ego, and Bad Notes

0:02That's the sound of zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine, and the power to burn body fat. Storm, energy for life. Storm Energy Blend helps boost metabolism, which in combination with exercise and a healthy diet helps burn fat. This product alone does not produce weight loss. Individual results may vary. But trying to find collaborators that you're not intimidated by is such a loser's move. You need to find a collaborator that you're a little, the tiniest bit intimidated to pitch to because they're so good at what they do.

0:24Justin Tranter:I would say to a young person, what is your goal? Is your goal to just be a part of something? or is your goal to be a part of it in the way that you know is perfect for you? Caleb was one of the first people that I took notes with who just knew a little bit better what you wanted and you would be a little firmer with executives from the beginning and say like, no, I don't think we want to do that, but like, thanks for the note. So sometimes you're getting a note just to get a note. And listen, sometimes those positions in the corporate world are very hard earned and there are a lot of really talented people in there.

0:55Sometimes somebody just knows someone and you might have as much experience as they do in that job. So I think it really comes down to discernment. When you get outside of that and you have some financial security, I don't know, sometimes I'm like, when you get further into your career, it's like, did I just get older and more mature? Or did I just make enough money to be like, f*** you. And I was like, oh my God. We can't speak to them that way. That's an executive at Netflix Incorporated.

1:29Justin Tranter:Oh, my goddess. This is a very exciting, exciting situation happening here because I am sitting with my co-creator of this podcast. You've heard her voice off the screen many a times. Ladies, gentlemen, everyone in between. Morgan Stewart. Come on. You can do better than that. Morgan Stewart. Pathetic. Do better. On this episode of Unfamous, little cutie recap episode, we are going to go over our time with Caleb Heron and Katie Delaney. And if you're new to this podcast, we talk about the art of collaboration. And what was really cool about this episode is I learned so much from how Caleb sets creative boundaries with his team, with his co-writers.

2:15Justin Tranter:I learned so much about how to handle the balance of like making art for a huge corporation while still trying to remain an artist and a bunch of other awesome shit. And I also laughed my ass off quite a bit because obviously Katie and Caleb are professional funny people. So it was a great time. Yeah. And for some more context on the episode, if you're new to it, Caleb Heron is, you know, viral comedian on the Internet. He is co-writers with Katie Delaney on shows that he has created and they've worked on together. She is known for her work on shows like Big Mouth and Rick and Morty. What's that show that straight men love?

2:59Justin Tranter:Rick and Morty. She also did something with Tim Allen. I don't know how she gets in with like all these guys. So sorry. But you know what? No, that room needs to be like lit up with more women. They're bringing her in to those very bro-y rooms. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool that she's getting in there. But also what I love too is like, and we'll see it on some of the clips, how Caleb, while he's learning so much about becoming a stronger writer, she's also learning how to speak up. And that just because somebody in a professional setting might have a higher title than her, she doesn't always just assume that they're always right.

3:38Let's start with a clip where Caleb talks about needing to turn his Twitter comedy into a 30-minute episode series and why he knew Katie would be the perfect collaborator. Amazing. What made Katie such a great collaborators I think there's such a a great balance to strike between like you actually shouldn't go for the person I didn't want a writer from like modern family or Seinfeld or someone who's been doing it for decades like I didn't want like an old veteran I wanted someone who's very good at what they do who has done more than me that to this day is a much better tv writer than I am and always will be I genuinely I'm like I wanted Katie because I'm like Katie is smart and funny I'm already a fan of hers but also Katie isn't some grizzled old vet who's just throwing this on her plate to like make another another thing yeah it's like no she'll give a fuck she's young she's hungry like I am and so that thing you're talking about there's a balance to strike I think between like um getting someone who can teach you something who you who has skills that you don't have that you admire but who also like not trying to swing so far above your weight class to where it's so so different I think there's a really good balance to strike yeah but trying to find collaborators that you're not intimidated by is such a loser's move you should people do that They're like, oh, I'll collaborate with this person because they'll like let me walk all over them.

4:52Yes, man. Yeah, what's the point? Yeah, it's like that's a loser move. You need to find a collaborator that you're a little, the tiniest bit intimidated to pitch to because they're so good at what they do. I mean, I love this clip because he's not looking for a collaborator just to stroke his ego, which like a surprising amount of people do. They're creatives and they want the attention and just to be told like, yeah, you're great. In my worlds of pop songwriting, the amount of times that you're like, why are this, this person clearly just wants to write this alone.

5:24Justin Tranter:Why are we all here? Either their manager forced them, their label forced them, or for whatever reason, they clearly want to do this alone. Right. Why did you invite somebody into a collaboration when you don't want to collaborate? Yeah, it's a waste of time, including that artist's time or that writer's time, because nothing about your work is going to get any better. But what I also love, he had a following. He could have gone for somebody with some, you know, big following, big accolades, whatever. But he'd rather go with somebody who like speaks his language, can make him a better writer. but then you know also has that hunger he chose that over a big name and I think that's like when I heard that I was like oh he like actually really fucking cares about making good work knowing your weaknesses is the best thing that you can do as a collaborator because if you know he knows what he's really good at and he knows what she's really good at so that they can like openly balance each other out.

6:30Justin Tranter:And I look for that in every single co-write that I do. I'm always like, well, I know that when it comes to this, this, and this, I'm really good. So I need somebody else to be good at the other things. And what I also think is important about that clip too, is showing that wanting someone who's better than you means that you want something great. Caleb is just such a fucking star. Yeah, truly. Even just like talking about how somebody else is better than him at something, I'm like, God, I just love him. Yeah, that's right. Deeply. Love it. The next clip is actually like one of the clearest conversations we've had on Unfamous about what great collaboration actually requires, which is no ego.

7:14God, I would say training in improv is the most important collaborative skill I've ever learned because it like took that self-importance out of my work.

7:24Justin Tranter:Yeah. And was like, no, the best thing to do is get the funniest idea and it doesn't matter if it comes from you because by nature, like by virtue of being in the room, it's also yours. Yeah. You know what I mean? If Katie has the best joke in the script, but we co-wrote the script, that's our joke. That's our joke. You know what I mean? Like why would I hold on to my joke just for the sake of it having technically come from me? Yeah. That's stupid. It's so stupid, but it's so common, right? I think so many people make that mistake because you just want, you just want to prove that you did like the best joke or the best.

7:53Justin Tranter:Well, you want to win. You want to win. Yeah, which is stupid. Which is stupid because the whole point of collaborating is that you're winning together. It's collaborative. No one on the outside knows which part of the song I wrote. Right. No one on the outside knows which part of the song somebody else wrote. They just know that they really like the song. No one's there counting. Right. Yeah. And you should be in service of creation. Always. Not in service of your ego or your whatever. Like when you're really making the best stuff, it's easier said than done. But when you're really making the best stuff, you're in service of creation and tapping into this like thing that kind of hangs above all of us rather than like, I'm the guy.

8:28It's like, you don't need to be the guy. You just need to be in service of creation and it'll go where it's supposed to go.

8:33Justin Tranter:I find myself only wanting to like remember what I actually did in moments of frustration. Like when I'm like annoyed at the industry as a whole, I'll start venting to people, mainly Jimmy, of like, you know, if I hadn't done this and that song and this and that song. These fucking people wouldn't even have had their fucking bloody daddy. And it's a good thing to remember that the only time that I ever want to take ownership of something I've done is when I'm really annoyed. Right. And like that. When you hated the collaboration. When I hated. And normally it's like something about like someone's manager or someone's A &R.

9:10Justin Tranter:It's never about my actual co-writer. You know, it's like something in the business has like deeply upset me. to then I want to like get my ego flares up because I'm upset. Oh, okay. And then I start wanting to like take like tally of what I did and why everyone should fucking be nicer to me. You know what? Okay, so that's actually a really good segue into the next clip. This is a really interesting clip from Katie about like learning the difference between respecting other people's expertise and then also trusting your own instincts and knowing what boundaries are. So the way that I sort of approach notes from executives is I'm still very reverent to people that I think know better than me.

9:53And it kind of gets in the way when it's like I'm talking about my own idea. And sometimes I'm listening to an executive who like glanced over it quickly and is like giving me notes that they came up with, you know, half asleep or whatever. And I would always be like, yes, OK, I totally understand what you're saying. Like, yes, we'll do that. and Caleb was one of the first people that I took notes with who just knew a little bit better what you wanted and you would be a little firmer with executives from the beginning and say like, no, I don't think we want to do that but like thanks for the note.

10:25And like the first time I heard you say something like that I was like, oh my God. We can't speak to them that way. That's an executive at Netflix Incorporated. And I do appreciate the note. I'm like glad they give the note. Right. But it's a no, but thank you. you automatically, I think know what you want, which is a huge strength of yours. You always know what you want. And I'm a little bit more like, uh, let me take it away and mull it over and think about it. And I've learned to just like accept a note in the moment and then later be like, we're not fucking doing that. But just, uh, you know, I think there's a balance of having them feel heard and maybe make executives think you're going to put the like stupid joke that they wrote in and then just not do it.

11:03They'll forget about it. But, um, I, I have learned from you to be a little firmer and just like prouder of my own work.

11:11Justin Tranter:I learned so much from this episode and I was, I'm doing a bunch of really cool film projects currently, but to hear them, how they, how they handle that and what she was learning from him and him in some ways, because he's from, from standup comedy, from improv, from the internet, he's like in some ways newer to the sort of super corporate space. He's like, well, no, but this is my script. This is what I want to do. No. And she comes from that. She broke in the corporate world. She has their like opposite journeys. And so like how they both handle that was very, I learned a lot from both of them and how they handle that.

11:50Yeah. And I will say having come from a corporate background, sometimes those notes are so important to listen to because there are just certain things behind the scenes, like on how things are built that like, this is needed to get to the next level. But also sometimes people are giving notes because they have to show their value and they have to bring that up in reviews, you know, because when it comes time to cut budgets, to lay people off.

12:24Justin Tranter:They need to prove that they did something. So sometimes you're getting a note just to get a note. And listen, sometimes those positions in the corporate world are very hard earned and there are a lot of really talented people in there sometimes somebody just knows someone and you might have as much experience as they do yeah in that job so i think it really comes down to discernment hello my little unfamous friends so um the thing about the algorithm little miss algorithm is that she um doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it. So if you follow this podcast, what do the old school YouTubers say?

13:06Justin Tranter:Like, subscribe, and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. like you have to know how to read people as well as like you know just like know how to read the room and see what everyone's doing and why yeah um just to really use your discernment to decide like is the note good enough to change what you're working on when i get a note that i know is the they're right i'm so fucking thrilled it's so exciting like oh my god you just made this so much better.

13:50Justin Tranter:Thank you so much. When I get a note that I know is wrong, it gets very stressful because then I'm like, okay, how do I not hurt this person's feelings, but not do what they're saying? What's really interesting that they bring up, which is in our next clip is, are you financially stable enough to say no? Financial security is such a big part of it. Cause when I was first starting out and getting my first writer's jobs, I didn't ever want to ruffle anyone's feathers i did it anyway but i didn't i had a bigger fear of like it was an internal fear that i kept to myself my behavior was pretty much the same but the fear and anxiety it caused me at every turn of like oh speaking up in the writer's room like that or oh talking to this talking to this exec about how i truly feel about the script there was that anxiety i would go home at the end of the day and lose sleep over like fuck if i lose this job i don't know how i'm gonna pay my bills right and when you get outside of that and you have some financial security you feel i lose no sleep over being like, if they hate me and never want to work with me again, that's great.

14:49Because then we both know that we're not in a working situation we don't want to be in, you know, but you can only act that way if you have financial security.

14:56Justin Tranter:Yeah. So that is such an important, I think, I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, when you get further into your career, it's like, did I just get older and more mature or did I just make enough money to be like, fuck you, fuck you. Agreed completely. But also I think there's another step to everyone's different and everyone's personality is different of for me, I could, I am at the place of saying, fuck you. I don't need your money. Very lucky to be there. Very grateful to be there. It still doesn't matter for me. I'm such like, I have such good student disease that I need to be like teacher's pet at all times that it's really hard for me to tell collaborators, co-writers, co-producers, executives, directors, A &Rs, it's really hard for me to tell anyone, no, I don't agree.

15:50Justin Tranter:No, I don't think that's right. No, I'm not going to do that. I have a really, really hard time. How would you tell a younger creative to protect their voice while still acknowledging that not everyone has the same freedom to push back? And how do you deal with, maybe somebody's pushing back too much and it's actually like, ooh, it's just showing a level of immaturity. Yeah. I would say, what is your goal? And so what I said to myself through the last three days of deciding whether I was going to go along with the project that they flipped the script on me, I had to decide, what is my goal here?

16:32Justin Tranter:And is my goal just to be a part of this project no matter what? Okay. or is my goal to be a part of the project in the way that I think actually makes sense for me? And if they need it that way, there's somebody else for the job. And even if it ends up being the biggest fucking thing ever, I need to prepare myself now that I said no. So I think I would say to a young person, what is your goal? Is your goal to just be a part of something or is your goal to be a part of it in the way that you know is perfect for you? Okay. Yeah. And that's kind of calling back to what Caleb was saying in the earlier clip about like being in the service of creation.

17:13It's like, do you want to go more for something that feeds the ego, which isn't always a bad thing, but it can obviously get in the way, especially of collaboration. Yeah. Or is it in service of like the greater purpose of the creative thing that you're partnering on with other people?

17:28Justin Tranter:Yeah. Okay. So I saved the wildest and most layered clip for last. Oh, wait. It takes like all of the writer's room insight where you'd have to watch the full episode. They talk about house numbers pitch. They talk about just like getting the bad ideas out. Just like breaking down like what it's like, how a writer's room works essentially and what their experience has been. You all put it into action when Caleb starts talking about something pretty dark. And then you three start riffing in real time. I know what this is going to be. It becomes one of the funniest and fucked up moments of this episode.

18:06Justin Tranter:I know what this is going to be. I went to college and I was like studying pre-law and I was studying sociopolitical communication. No way. Yeah, I thought I was going to be a lawyer. And then I got so fucking depressed in college and suicidal. Shout out. Shout out sophomore year. Who else? That girl? That girl? That girl. Yeah, I woke up one day sophomore year and I was like, being alive has been fun. What if it was over? quick pitch I'm really good at pitching this isn't the answer this isn't it but like killing ourselves and then I was quickly like it might be it and your friend's like no listen you gotta say it get it out get the good idea out get the bad idea out thank god you were in a writer's room at the time yeah yeah yeah I took it to the room I was like I'm thinking about killing myself you guys they're all also suicidal okay not this but killing myself it's not killing myself but like something like that I get driving really fast without my seatbelt on.

19:03I have something, you know? House numbers pitch. House numbers pitch. House numbers pitch. Suicide. I don't have to be alive anymore is the idea that we're trying to get to. Something in the suicidal arc. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

19:15Justin Tranter:And your job as my collaborator is to elevate my suicidal thoughts. We workshop my suicide note. No, it's heavy on top. It's too detail heavy. Let's more pro, yeah. It's really sad. but no I was so depressed and of course all my friends were theater kids like that's who I gravitated towards yeah and I had a bunch of friends that did improv and I was like that seems like the most humiliating thing you could possibly do to yourself but I am gonna kill myself soon so I have nothing to lose wow and so I was like well if I'm already gonna kill myself I may as well do improv on the way out and so reach the depths of hell before they take an improv class Yeah, and then, you know.

19:58And so I did, yeah, I started doing improv. And then I had this will to live that I was like, oh my God, this is so much fun. I should do this forever.

20:04Justin Tranter:He's just so fucking funny. Well, all three of you were. Like, you all decided to yes and his story about suicide. Well, he opened it up with the shout out. Yeah. Shout out. Another great collaboration trick. If you make a joke inside of your story, inside of your pitch, it lets everybody feel like they can join the situation. And I mean, it was just like a perfect example of like everything that they talked about, every skill that they've honed together or separately like throughout their careers, like in that, like watching that from behind the camera, I was just like, I was silently just like crying.

20:44I don't think I could even see through the tears that I had.

20:47Justin Tranter:What's also so funny is that even though he's telling a story about a very dark time and we made a joke out of it and then started fake pitching the whole thing. I know bullshit every single session, minimum three times go, this is definitely not it, but what about this lyric? And just start talking. And more than half the time, whatever I just said is not it, is it. And it's not even like a trick that I'm doing just to like, oh, I'm going to like make this seem less egotistical and blah, blah. No, it's actually like I don't have the idea fully formed yet. So I'm going to like present it as an idea of like, this is not it, but here's the lyric.

21:29Justin Tranter:And then normally it just ends up being the gist of just that lyric. Yeah, you have to get it out. It takes the pressure off of it. Yeah. And it's just like you can't be afraid of it being a bad idea or like judgment in the room. I mean, if you're working with people who are going to like rip you apart for something that's not a perfect idea. Yeah. Like that's crazy. But yeah, like you have to be able to throw ideas out in order to actually collaborate. Otherwise, nothing's happening. It takes the pressure off yourself by saying, hey, I don't think this is the right idea, but I'm just going to say it to get it flowing.

22:04Justin Tranter:It takes the pressure off yourself to say something that might not be great. And it also takes the pressure off of all of your collaborators, because then if it actually isn't great, they don't feel bad. True. saying no or yes anding it and moving on to something better. Whereas if you're just like, this is the, this is it. And it's terrible. Right. Everybody's fucked. He actually did say something really funny earlier in the episode when he was like going more into detail about getting the bad idea and then everyone collectively landing on the good idea. But then he always knows when a more green writer is in the room because even after they achieve the idea, Then they do that.

22:47Wait, I've got it. And he's like, no, we've moved on. Yeah. Yeah.