Recap: Kid Cudi on Creative Trust, Criticism, and the Meaning of "Pursuit of Happiness"

0:00I'm like, yeah, motherfucker, two days to write something you don't like. I love it. I go to sleep at night loving that shit. Like, yeah, motherfucker. Guess what? You gonna write about me. Did I make something that someone approves of or did I make something that cannot be ignored? If it's something creative that's coming out of you in earnest and you put your all into it, you fucking did it.

0:21Justin Tranter:For the first second to be, fuck this, I'm leaving, I hate this studio, I'm leaving. but I was like, oh, God, like this, this literal like visionary writer. Now I have to just like sit in a car awkwardly. What if we don't get along? Right. If I had to trust you. Yeah. Because there were a lot of times where I was like, I don't know if I could sing that. And you'd be like, I think you can. Yeah. You know? And I'd be like, I don't know, man. That's pretty high. He's like, just try it. Yeah. And I would try it and I would nail it. I don't think we would have written something that vulnerable if we hadn't had the hour together in the car of not writing.

0:59Justin Tranter:I think it was all meant to be in a great lesson of like just fucking go with the flow. Yeah. Your chances of something special happening are much higher if you don't say no to whatever the journey of the collaboration might be.

1:17Justin Tranter:Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone in between. This is Unfamous, a podcast where we talk about the art of collaboration and the untold and unsung and unfamous stories of how your favorite pop culture moments get made. This is a very little special series of episodes. I am sitting here with my collaborator on this podcast, co-creator Morgan Stewart. Thanks. Today, we are going to recap my conversation with the one and only brilliant Kid Cudi, who is lucky enough to call him my friend and also lucky enough to call him my co-writer. Morgan, what are some of your favorite things from our Kid Cudi episode?

2:03So I really love how he's talking about going from like a very like singular artist to collaborating on something that just pushed him into a new direction. Like he wasn't afraid to push the boundaries and also his voice and talking about how much he learned there. But we'll start with how you kicked off your first ever session with Kid Cudi.

2:25Justin Tranter:Okay, cool. I mean, I'll never forget our first moment writing together. We walked into a studio on the West Side. And you walked in and you're like, I don't like this room. Fuck this room. And I was like, oh, God, okay. Because it's all about the feng shui, you know? Like, it's got to have the vibes. It was like old school studio where like there's this huge live room that we're not going to write in. Because that would be crazy to sit in a little circle and like hold hands. I mean, it could be fabulous. But it was like just a long, narrow room. And you were like, no, fuck this. Let's just go back to my house.

2:59Justin Tranter:And I was like, okay. So we just, and you don't live close. No, it was a fucking journey. It was a fucking journey. It was like from Hollywood back to Calabasas or some shit like that. It was long. During like rush hour time. Literally. So then we just like sat in your car for at least minimum an hour to get back. And it was worth it, though. It was worth it. Because then like we actually got we got to know each other a little bit. Yeah. Before we just started writing a song. Yeah. So it was like an accident, like a perfect mistake of like, fuck the studio. This is uncomfortable. Let's just drive for an hour.

3:37Justin Tranter:Yeah. And then start writing. And it works out great. He's so respected and loved as a songwriter, as like a singular, as you mentioned, a singular sort of visionary writer. I was nervous to meet him and write with him for the first time. And for the first second to be, fuck this, I'm leaving. I hate this studio. I'm leaving. It was, I didn't really say it as much in front of him, but I was like, oh God, like this, this literal like visionary writer. and now I have to just like sit in a car awkwardly. What if we don't get along? Right, yeah. What if we don't vibe? And we're like stuck in this car and then we have to go do a session because when you're writing and music is playing, it's a lot easier to distract each other from like who we actually are.

4:27Justin Tranter:Right. When you're sitting in the back of like a fucking SUV with his assistant and you're just like making small talk, I was definitely nervous. Oh, yeah. Which we all know he's like such an easy guy to get along with. Yeah, but I didn't know the time. Yeah, but yeah, the time. But I think if that was me in that situation, I also would have gotten in the car because I would have been like, listen, even if this session doesn't work out, at least I'd have like an insane story for myself. Yeah. Like that would be an adventure. I mean, you easily could have been like, fuck this. Let's just reschedule.

5:00Yeah. Yeah, I'm not dealing with this, whatever. And he also could have been like, I hate this room so much. Like we're just canceling. Like I don't even care. But like you guys still went for it. I know that out of that first session, the first song he wrote was Saltwater. Do you think that song would have come out in the same way that it did had you just stayed in that original studio?

5:19Justin Tranter:You know, I don't think we would have written something that vulnerable if we hadn't had the hour together in the car of not writing. I don't think that he would have been willing to, because if you listen to the song Saltwater, he talks in the middle of the song. He like taught in the bridge is him talking mainly to his dad who has passed away. No matter how many joints he would have smoked, I don't think he would have been free enough to like write this whole spoken word piece as like almost like a letter to his dad. I think it was all meant to be in a great lesson of like, just fucking go with the flow.

6:05Justin Tranter:Yeah. Your chances of something special happening are much higher if you don't say no to whatever the journey of the collaboration might be. Yeah. And that actually leads really well into our next clip, which is about how he's known for smoking weed, his cutty hum. And then also just kind of like changing up the process of collaboration while somebody is trying something new and pushing the boundaries of, you know, their vocal capabilities. Cool.

6:37You know what I mean? I mean, people love it. Yeah, people love it, man. It's a cutting hum. But this album in particular, like, the things that were demanded of me vocally were just like nothing I've ever experienced before.

6:54Justin Tranter:Right. You know what I mean? So I needed to really hone in and kind of trust the process. I had to trust you. Yeah. Because there were a lot of times where I was like, I don't know if I could sing that. And you'd be like, I think you can. Yeah. You know? And I'd be like, I don't know, man. That's pretty high. He's like, just try it. Yeah. And I would try it and I would nail it. Yeah. And you'd be like, see how fucking told you. Yeah. You know? Well, it's always, I think for me, it's in, whether it's writing, whether it's getting someone on the mic, whatever it is, it's always like, I'm always just like, it's just music.

7:24Yeah.

7:24Justin Tranter:So let's just try it in the higher key that you feel like might be too high. Just try it. And if it's too high, we just lower the key. It's no stress. Then most of the time, you'd sing it in the original key, and we would all applaud. Yeah. And that was a beautiful thing. They would always leave. I was just going to say. We would get kicked out. They always left, right? He says they kicked them out. Well, I guess I did. I did say I wanted to clear them because I was nervous. I was nervous, right? Because this was all new things for me. but they would leave and then they would come back and we would all listen to playback and like that was always the best part for me like watching Justin like sit there on the couch and just be like woo woo like going crazy and shit and like really loving it and over time like my confidence got stronger and stronger each song my confidence got stronger and stronger yeah you know what I mean simply because I had the support from you everybody in the room that was working on the music and it was just it was so beautiful I hadn't experienced anything like that in my career man The last thing he said is so cool I haven't experienced anything like that in my career I mean he's been killing it his first hit was what 2007 2008 somewhere in there he's almost at 20 years of killing it and to like be able to push yourself after all that success I think is so awesome for lack of a better word, like to still want to try new things.

8:54Justin Tranter:And what's crazy about this too is I think it's great as if you're trying to listen to this to learn about like the art of collaboration. He loved the cheering and the woos after he was done. If you did it early on, I learned quickly like he felt like being cheered on too soon was fake. Honestly, I would feel the same. And he's like, this is not good yet. You're fucking lying to me. Right. And what is really amazing to see is that he wants to put in the work and know that it's at least decent before anyone comes in and listens and cheers him on. Where some singers, they want to be cheered on the entire time.

9:37Tell me I'm great. Tell me I'm great.

9:39Justin Tranter:I don't think that's right or wrong. It's just how each person goes. But I learned with Cudi really quick that he wants to be given space to do it on his own and then wants the feedback afterwards. And what was also really cool is that me and Jimmy just went to see his show. And the one new song he does do, Mr. Miracle, is the most range melodically. and to see when it gets to that chorus, no need to lie, I think he and I even talked about it in this, you might have a clip, of it wasn't the biggest era of his career, this album that I worked on with him, but to see that like giving that sort of bigger anthemic melody that he got to sing in the middle of this show, the whole audience was singing along, even though this era wasn't that massive.

10:28Justin Tranter:For that song, there was something about like hearing the whole audience sing this more rangy melody for him. You could tell that even though that audience isn't thinking that way, it's more of a subconscious thing. But it was a really important part of the show to have that range be pushed for him. Yeah, that's a good point to bring up. He also, in the show, we don't have a clip, but I think it was for a speeding bullet to heaven. He talked about how it took people a long time to catch on. Katy Perry even brought up some of her songs deep in the catalog are now flying up. They were never even singles.

11:03Yeah. Like they're going viral right now. She has several. Same thing with him. I think when that album of yours that you worked on with him came out, was it Maui Waui that all of a sudden was?

11:14Justin Tranter:A song from 20 years before goes viral. Him promoting a new album somehow pushed people to some random song from a mixtape. Yeah. It wasn't even an official release. That actually perfectly leads us into the next clip, which is about what happens when a song leaves the artist and takes on a life of its own. When the remix happened, it flipped the whole shit. The feeling, yeah. Like, it became like, oh, this is a song we get fucked up to. Like, he's talking about drinking and driving. Yeah, this is a song you drink and drive to, you know? And I was like, no, no, no, no. That's not what this point of the song was, guys.

11:53It was meant to show you like this is recklessness. Yeah. You know? But over time, I learned to embrace because I saw that the remix was bringing people joy. When I would perform it at my shows, that was always a moment. Yeah. I mean, that song, I'll always have to have in my set.

12:16Justin Tranter:Yeah. Like I'll always have to perform in pursuit. Always. Always. Such a good song. Yeah, people look forward to coming to my show and having that last moment at the end of the shows where the fucking confetti comes down, the fucking balloons, and everybody's singing Pursuit of Happiness and just raging and having a good time. And we're all fucking happy. So because of having this conversation with him when me and Jimmy went to the show, I was like waiting for this moment and he ends the show with it. The whole time I'm like re-listening for the lyrics about like self-destruction. The lesson is, yes, people will make something their own no matter what, but it also is the power of pop music.

12:57Yeah.

12:57Justin Tranter:That if you want to look at the details of the lyrics and go, oh, wait, this is really fucked up. Like this guy's not doing well. You can. but if you just want to listen to if all you're hearing is pursuit of happiness, the pursuit of happiness with that euphoric, hard-hitting beat the whole time, then that's fine too and to look around at this audience that deeply loves him, these fans love him, they are listening to the details of most songs on this song, just that main lyric like I'm looking for the pursuit of happiness and the euphoric nature of that track is all that they're noticing in that moment.

13:40Yeah, and I've heard you talk about this several times that when you are structuring a song, one part is specifically for just the broader audience, and then another part is for the super fan. Neither is wrong. I mean, it's like whatever it's making you feel, live your life.

13:57Justin Tranter:Live your life. I mean, all the time, as Good Luck Babe, that I was lucky enough to do with Chapel, as that was taking over the world and thinking about how many straight women are listening to this, thinking about like their fuck ass ex-boyfriend who like just is not ready to be a grownup yet. And then that, that I am so glad that that song means just as much to them as it means to queer people. For queer people, we know what that song means almost too well. It's almost uncomfortable. And I think that's the endless beauty of music specifically. The music fills in so many gaps for the listener in a good way of like, oh, no, this is what this song means to me.

14:43Justin Tranter:And to watch this happen for Cudi to talk about it and then watch it firsthand was unbelievable. Hello, my little unfamous friends. so um the thing about the algorithm little miss algorithm is that she um doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it so if you follow this podcast what do the old school youtubers say like subscribe and follow um if you do that for me then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things.

15:26Bye.

15:27Justin Tranter:Last thing I'll say, because I know we have so many clips to go over, is that to watch them like rage with joy for pursuit of happiness, but then to also watch them like rage with like sadness, like on some, because some of his lyrics are so fucking depressing. Yeah. Well, so depressing. And like there's like, you know, a 22 year old girl behind us, like screaming every word to a song that's on the verge of a suicide note. I'm like, this is just the power of art. And for her in this moment, she's partying to the most depressing thing I've ever heard. That is why we get into this next clip where Scott talks about how he just does not give a fuck about criticism.

16:14Oh, yeah. This is a good one. It's work to write a story about. You know what I'm saying? And especially you write something that they don't like. Yeah. Like, I love that. Like, yeah, asshole, you got to write something you don't like. Listen to it again. Yeah, yeah. Listen to this thing you hate again. You know what I'm saying? Your boss is like, you got to write the Kid Cutty review. You're like, fuck. It's going to take me two days. I'm like, yeah, motherfucker, two days to write something you don't like. I love it. I go to sleep at night loving that shit. Like, yeah, motherfucker. Guess what?

16:40You're going to write about me. You're going to write about me.

16:45Justin Tranter:That is so inspiring. That's like deeply inspiring. And that only comes with time. Oh, yeah. Like, I don't think I asked him in this. And I don't think I've ever asked him off camera either. Like, my guess, I would bet money that that is not how he felt at the beginning. And with time for him to be able to find that much joy in even a negative review, that is aspirational. That is unbelievable. Yeah, because it completely reframes the idea of like, did I make something that someone approves of or did I make something that cannot be ignored? Right. And like, I don't think everyone should reframe that way because there is just some shit that goes out, even like not even talk about music, but people are just putting out.

17:30I mean, look at all the polarizing content that's on the Internet just for attention, views, clicks, whatever. But like if it's something creative that's coming out of you in earnest and you put your all into it, whether or not somebody likes it, if it's being seen, you fucking did it.

17:45Justin Tranter:Yeah. And you should be proud. Yeah. Is there a point in your career where you stop seeing like criticism as a horrible verdict? I've always had a more healthy view of it than most people because I was forced to very early on. I mean, I'll never forget like even like the village voice, which is, you know, supposed to be an ally, supposed to be an ally would say really homophobic shit about my band and not about the music at all. It called me Poncey, which is like basically just call me a way more exciting. Just be direct. Don't you're trying to sound smart with like this old British term, like shut up, just call me a.

18:33Justin Tranter:Or like, you know, early days of Twitter. Like even when we would open for Gaga, which is, you would assume is like the most open-minded audience in the world, which 98 % of them are. There'd still be the 2 % that'd be like, get these like AIDS, T-slurs off the stage. Oh my God. Crazy shit. So I think being so queer and so visibly queer my whole career, I've been able, forced to compartmentalize feedback early on. In pop music specifically, what's interesting, and this is a big, big blanket statement, but for the most part, when you get rave reviews in pop music, it's normally for things that like didn't end up being a hit.

19:22Justin Tranter:Like one of my favorite songs ever is Bad Liar that I wrote with Julia Michaels and Selena Gomez and Ian Kirkpatrick and the Talking Heads just because we sampled them. Love it. But it ended up not being a smash, smash hit. And we got put that year like on every best song of the year list for that song, which I agree with them. But also I think if it would have been a smash hit, if it would have gone number one at pop radio, I don't think we would have gotten that critical acclaim. I think because it was an underdog, then it was like cool to worship it. So last clip we'll end on is what really drives Kid Cudi, despite all the criticism or, you know, taking chances on whether something will succeed or fail, like why he does it.

20:11Cool. I always had this phobia. I always had this fear that I would be a loser. In school, I didn't apply myself. I got bad grades. I tried to play every sport. there was and I could never make the team. Like I just, as a kid, I just thought that I was going to be a loser. And like when I went out to pursue music, the one thing in the back of my mind was like, I am not going to be a loser. So I still, even though like I've accomplished all these great things and there's no way, even if I stopped now, I wouldn't be a loser. Right. I still have this thing in my head where I'm like, no, like, I have to keep pushing myself to be like the illest version I can ever be.

21:06Like the Super Saiyan, Dragon Ball Z, gold hair, flying in the sky version of Kid Cudi. You know what I mean? Like that's where I need to find that. And I won't stop till I achieve it. Wow.