Ruth B + Cole MGN | What Happens After Your First Song Becomes a Massive Hit

26:47Justin Tranter:So it still feels like a singer songwriter album. It just takes you to a new place. And I think you guys did an amazing job with that. When you say you had to figure out what the boundaries were, I'm very curious about that. How did you figure out what it was? How did you, is it just trial and error of like, okay, this is what this album sounds like? Or what was the process of getting there? I mean, I think that we, you know, Ruth had done quite a bit of co-writing in the past, but I think that every co-write is different, right? And every collaboration is unique. And so we had to find how we were going to collaborate with the skills that we're bringing to the table, you know?

27:31And I think that, yeah, it does take trial and error. And I think at first, well, actually the first few songs we started, you had brought in most of the song already written. And so that was a cool way to actually start because we could kind of start to experiment with something that was already strong. Cool. You know, and those songs made the album too and are some of my favorites. But then we were like, okay, how can now we like set forth on the next leg of this journey, you know, and try something different and write together, you know. and and that took a second because I think one of the first days I remember me starting to play some chords or or try to make some music to for us to write to and then you were kind of sitting there and you just I remember you just being like a little frozen of like how do I now just on the spot write a song you know what I mean yeah and and I just remember being like hey it doesn't have to be it doesn't there's we you know we don't need to feel this pressure we don't need to have this idea that you're just going to pull out of your ass just like an incredible top line and lyric right now with nothing you know what I mean and so instead I think we after a few days of working together we I remember you trying you getting on the mic at some point and just sort of trying melodies trying singing melodies and that was something you hadn't done before were you saying lyricless yeah I remember Cole was like why don't we just set up the mic right now and just sing and I was mortified.

28:57Justin Tranter:Oh, I, I, I still to this day hate it. I was horrified because I'm like, I, like I ha I have such a routine way of writing. Yeah. And he was like, just see, like what, what's the worst that can happen? Like I'm, but you're, you can stay seated and comfortable. It's not like you have to stand and feel the pressure. He's like, just like do it. And like, after a few times I was like, wait, I kind of love this. And we would like, we would pull out lyrics from those little mumbly things. And that would be the genesis of like a new song. You were freestyling the song right then. And it was actually incredible to see and to know that that was the first time.

29:30I mean, it's funny you say you were scared because maybe I sensed a little fear at first, but actually by the second or third time, you were in your back. No, I loved it. I was like, I want to do this every day. Wow. Yeah, I still hate it. I don't know.

29:42Justin Tranter:But I'm much more like, we all do lots of things when we co-write, but like lyrics are my favorite part. Yeah. And so for me, like the freestyling, the melodies, I'm just like nine out of 10 of these are going to be so bad. Yeah. But I mean, there were some bad ones for sure. I think even the best melody writers of all time are going to have some bad ones. But because it's not my strength, they're mostly bad. And I'm just like, OK, never mind. Here. Have either of you worked with Nisha? Amazing songwriter. I've heard that. Beast. And that's how she writes every song. And we were writing together a couple weeks ago.

30:17Justin Tranter:She's like, why don't you try it? I was like, after you just killed it for 20 minutes, you want me to go? But I am such a fan of hers. I was like, if Nisha's asking me to freestyle, I'm gonna do this. And it was kind of nice to be like, you know, 96 years old and still be afraid of something. Hello, my little unfamous friends. so um the thing about the algorithm little miss algorithm is that she um doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it so if you follow this podcast what do the old school youtubers say like subscribe and follow um if you do that for me then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people.

31:09Justin Tranter:So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. Air Lyrics is kind of awesome. No, I think you've got to step outside your comfort zone sometimes, you know, and I mean, and, and collaboration, hopefully the collaboration allows you to do that. You know what I mean? And, but, um, I think that, yeah, I mean, so getting to the lyrics though, you're right. That, that then became the, you know, next step. We had all these songs that had beautiful melodies with a few lyrics. The thing, I think we knew that it was great already though, because we were listening to it without lyrics and we were like crying.

31:46Justin Tranter:We were listening. Which song are we talking about? If you can remember. There's a few. I definitely remember like, who's going to love you. Yes. Was one of those. Breathe. Breathe. For sure. Oh my God. Breathe was like the OG. There's a song on there called Breathe where it was just like straight melody. And we're like. That is amazing. Because her voice. And I mean, it was already so much of it was there, even without the lyrics, you could picture what the song was about. I mean, because there was a few words and that's the beautiful, magical thing about that. Sometimes you could hear a few things and maybe what I heard was different from what Ruth heard, but we kind of listened back to it and tried to let that then guide us.

32:21of kind of like, okay, I think it's about this. And actually interesting thing with that song in particular, right, was when we were trying to figure out, we were like, you know, doing the archeology of what this actually is and kind of dusting off and trying to figure out, I think it's this, I think it's that. I kind of had an idea. I was like, I think it's this kind of thing. We started, we basically wrote the whole lyric together of kind of what I heard. And then I think actually to Ruth's credit, an amazing moment in the process was you being like, you know what? I like this, but I actually think this isn't the song.

32:52I actually think the song is something else. And I just need to take my time with it and figure out what, what those lyrics are. And, and we did, that's the, the other thing I think is just that giving it the proper time. Yeah.

33:04Justin Tranter:How do you be, how do you find like the confidence to go, no, I just need time. Or is that something that's just in you? No, absolutely not. That's not in me at all. I think this album with Cole, I think I really challenged myself. And before we started it, I remember I was like, okay, this album is going to be like my most personal one. I've been through a lot and like I know I have stuff to say. And I want to feel as comfortable as possible to kind of in a way like guide that a little bit. I think in the past, like it's intimidating. You get in, you know, the room with like these people have been doing music forever and you love their music and you're a fan.

33:46and you're kind of like, okay, like you tell me what to do kind of thing. But I think with Cole, part of how we met too, like we didn't meet in the studio. We met like at a coffee shop and I wanted to kind of know the person I was going to work with before so I could have that confidence because I don't think that's something that comes to me naturally. But, you know, I feel like once you become familiar and comfortable with someone, it's so much easier to just be like this, I feel like this and that. I need this, I need that.

34:10Justin Tranter:how did you decide as someone who did get put through the crazy like do a million sessions with a million different people and just see what happens how did you decide Cole was the main collaborator for the album yeah I think um so I remember my manager and I like once this was about three years ago I had been through a lot of stuff I hadn't put out an album in like four or five years and I was like I think I think I want to make something now and the one thing I said was like who I don't want to do the sessions thing I want to just find my person and work with them and like get in um and so once I said that Mark I think it was Cole had recently signed to my management company and oh cool um Mark was like looking at his resume he's like back back back and like we both love back and like that was all over Cole's stuff and I was like I don't know if it makes sense but let's let's meet um yeah and so yeah we hung out at a coffee shop I always say I feel like the scariest person to meet someone is in the studio.

35:08Like for the first, like, just, Hey, let's write together. That is like the most terrifying thing to me. I love that.

35:15Justin Tranter:I love it. Yeah. But I can like have a great conversation with that. I can. Yeah. Okay. So like, like going to coffee with someone is that doesn't mean for me that we're going to write a good song together. Yeah. And it didn't to me either. I think it was just more about making the fear away. That's exactly what it is because I just feel it just, there's so much pressure. I feel like meeting in that place. So anyways, we hung out and like we had a really great chat. We bonded a lot of over some of our favorite music. I was very surprised to find out that he's like a super fan of like Ethiopian music, which was so like crazy and random and shocking.

35:53But I was like, OK, my parents are going to love him, too. So I'm like, we just it was like an instant kind of thing. And I was like, let's just try it out. And like, you know, at that point felt like this isn't just a stranger that i'm walking into the studio with now this is there's something here yep um and we did a couple sessions and i was like yeah this is let's go let's do it let's do the whole thing what do you what do you just because people are coming to to watching this to

36:19Justin Tranter:try to learn how do you then because that's a big undertaking okay we're going to make this whole album together yeah what was it that is crazy what for both of you what was it that gave you what was the signal like yep we should I want to go on this crazy journey with this person you want to go first you're so polite what artist let somebody else go first what a sweetheart Canada I think that it was like my personal journey of where I was at the time too I had just done a lot of kind of random sessions as well, you know, which is one day, like nice, I call it nice to meet you session where you're just trying to, okay, let's write a song.

37:06That's also something that I don't excel at. I don't think, I think for me, it's more like, I really want to dig in and take time and sort of build something, you know? And sometimes it's like the third, fourth, fifth song. That's actually the best one, you know, or 10th song. But, but I think that, so I had just made this playlist, like somebody had recommended somewhere that make a playlist of everything you loved as a teenager. And this is kind of actually loops back to what I was saying about those initial meetings in LA and kind of like having, I was like reconnecting. I think there's a continual process of reconnecting with, you know, the reasons that you got into music in the first place and why you love this.

37:45And so, you know, I had just, I'm such an avid fan of music, listening to stuff and discovering new things all the time that I hadn't really taken the time to go back and really spend time with what I listened to in those formative years, you know, of like 15 through 20, which is just like that. To me, that is like your music taste is, you know what I mean? And so then I made the playlist of just everything I loved and it was just like 60 hours of music. And I would listen to that on shuffle and it was incredible because it'd be like the song 13 on a most deaf album or something. And I was just like, this is, I remember this so well.

38:25I know every word. I know every moment of the song, even though it's just so, and then hearing it through like producer ears, whatever, 20 years later. And I was just like, this is so weird. Like this beat is so bad in a way, but I love it so much. You know what I mean? And, and just, and hearing all that stuff, but there was just certain things on there. And I remember you, when we met at the coffee shop you were kind of like oh so my favorite artists are stevie wonder lauren hill and the beatles or whatever and like those were just like at the top of my list of my teenage playlist or whatever and i was just like okay we already connect them it's not like you're like i mean no shade again but it's not like you're like oh the whatever new thing you know trying to make whatever new you know current music you're kind of like drawing from a deeper well i feel like in a way you know and that at least I connected with that you know and then the Ethiopian music thing was just random and weird and I was kind of like oh my favorite artist you know my favorite Ethiopian music is Mahmoud Ahmed you're like oh it's my dad's favorite or whatever you know um yeah but and so and so there was just weird things like that just just felt like kismet and felt like there was some synergy already happening and I mean for me I think with the type of producer I am Like I love to co-write with artists who are already amazing writers.

39:43Yeah. Makes my job a little easier. No, but it's also just that I just, I love an artist who has a unique voice that is, comes through in their writing, you know, and that they are doing something that, that would just nobody else would write, you know? And, and so I knew obviously that Ruth was that, and you could do it already all on your own. You know what I mean? And so I just felt, okay, let me come in here and just like help you, um, help, help like bring out some of that growth that you've been going through in your personal life.

40:14Justin Tranter:Yeah. And then just put that into the music in a way that you hadn't yet. What was it? Cause it, like you've mentioned a couple of times, it was like a long time between albums. What, if you don't mind and you can tell me to off, you don't have to answer this question, but like, what was it in your personal life? Cause you've mentioned a few times about what you've gone through. What was it that you were like, I need I'm ready to write about this? Well, I think at the top, I went through like the biggest breakup of my life. Thank, good for you. I know. I think breakups are amazing. They're actually so good.

40:45In the long run.

40:46Justin Tranter:Like don't come to me with looking for like to vent about your partner because I'm just going to tell you to break up. I'm done. It's going to be my advice. Yeah. So I'm proud of you. Good for you. Yeah. I think in the moment it was like the worst thing ever, but hindsight's 20-20 and now I'm like, oh, thank God for that. But I think, yeah, breakup. And then just like growing up, like going from, you know, your early 20s into your late 20s, there's like so much stuff that happens. And you find yourself out of a relationship that you've been in for like five years that kind of define you. When you're in your 20s, five years is a long time.

41:19It's a lot. And it kind of defines who you are. And you are that person. And that person is you. So the separation of that, it's almost like, oh, my God, I have to like find myself. Yeah. Who am I outside of this? Like, who are my friends? because I was so secluded in this thing. And it just, there was like a lot of life to write about. And so I think, you know, I told my manager, I'm like, I'm ready to make music. I don't know who to do it with. Met Cole. And I think the thing for me was like, I just, he, I felt very understood by him. Yeah. In the sense of like, I felt like he really appreciated what I already had going on.

41:52He wasn't coming in there to be like, well, you should do this. We should change this. Like, he was like, you have something really good. Like, I want to help you make that even deeper and better. And like, I loved that. Like I was like, oh, finally, like this is someone who like sees what I have going on and is telling me it's a good thing and is like, let's let's just like elevate it. Yeah.

42:11Justin Tranter:Can you guys walk me through what was the hardest song on the album to write and finish and get across the finish line? and like really walk me through the process if you don't mind because I just think that's such a helpful thing for people to learn about is like we always tell the stories if we wrote it in 20 minutes and we just knew it was nothing but piano and a kick drum and now it's the biggest hit ever that doesn't help anybody there's nothing to learn there like what was the hardest and how did you get through it? I don't know I don't know if it was the hardest but the song Breathe that we already talked about, I think it was one that we had to be delicate with, you know?

42:58And I think that sometimes you do have to be careful, even though I tend to be a just throw a paint at the wall, break stuff, burn it down, start again. But I kind of, I had just come through doing a couple projects where I had done that on every song. And it was so exhausting actually that, you know, we'd write the song and then I would say, okay, let's take out all the music. Now what should this be? Let's do, I'll do a ballad version. I'll do a hip hop version. I'll do this. I'll do that. And by the end of it, I was like, that was not really helpful. Actually, it was so tiring. And I made 20 versions of every song and it was just complete indecision.

43:31And that sounds awful. It was horrible.

43:34Justin Tranter:I'm just going to be honest with you. That sounds like a really bad idea. It was a terrible idea. No, sometimes I feel like sometimes you have to do that. But I think I came out of that being like, you know what? This project with Ruth, this is kind of towards the beginning. I'm just like, I don't think this is going to need that. I just want to do this where we trust our instincts. where we really trust the first thought. And even though it wasn't the kind of thing where, as we sort of started to describe it, we didn't write the song in 20 minutes or anything. It evolved over a long period of time because we would go months without working together and then get back to, and there was a lot going on for both of us during then, but definitely for you, where you would sort of be going through periods of, I think where it seemed like you felt like you weren't as connected to writing and being creative.

44:19And then you would kind of come back and be ready to go again and um you know you were going through the breakup you know and all the repercussions of it and everything and then trying to figure out how much of that to include but i think at times it's just like you just feel bad and you just are like i don't want to write about this yeah yeah but um to get to the process of writing i i think that with that one it was kind of like i think the crucial moment was when you said you know i don't think this is actually the song, even though we had already, we wrote it. And, and then, and when you went back and rewrote it, you rewrote the verses, right.

44:56And it took a while. Like, you know, it took like, I think we probably started the song and didn't finish it until what, two years later, a year and a half or two years later. Yeah. It was one of those. Because, but also it's a song about something then a little different than, than what you'd written about. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, yeah. No. So that that song, I would say is like definitely my most personal vulnerable song probably that I've ever written about just because I think, yeah, I think a lot of my music, most of my music is kind of about someone else and like how they made me feel and the heartbreak or the love of it.

45:33And this was like just about me and like my journey and like my struggles with my mental health and stuff. And I was I was really going through it while we were making this album. I'm sorry. No, I like it was tough in the moment. But now I look back and I'm like grateful because it's like you can kind of hear the like pain, but also like the healing throughout this album, which is why it's so near and dear to my heart, because like, I know what I was going through when I was singing those exact lyrics. And I think with Breathe specifically, like we started it as kind of like this love song or whatever.

46:04And then there was there was a lyric in it, I think, on the mumble mumble track that was like the mountains are so big. I feel so small. The oceans are so big. They could swallow me whole. And like I remember I was kind of like one thing I'll say about Cole is I'm so thankful for his patience because there were like literally two years to finish this.

46:22Justin Tranter:I'll see you in two years. Literally, there were times I was like, OK, I'll see you tomorrow. and then he wouldn't see me for like three months like straight up because I was just so in the trenches um but I remember my best friend she she was like you know I was back home in Canada and she's like we gotta like do something like you gotta get out of this funk and she took me to Banff which is like my favorite place in the world I used to go there growing up a lot mountain town and we stayed there for three days and that's actually where I like wrote the song and I was kind of sitting outside on the balcony one day by myself going through a bunch of our say and like it really that's what I would say to people is like I don't think you need to rush music like yeah of course we live in an industry where it's like you got to do stuff but like you you should give yourself the time to feel the music you're writing and like do you think that because obviously like you said we're in this music business and there is pressure especially on artists of course release release release release do you think that you know that you need to give yourself time or that you just there's there's no option for you like for the way your creative process you are gonna give yourself time or is it something that you like actively put your foot down and and make happen I think it's I don't have a choice yeah yeah I think for me it's like I'm not the type of person who's gonna write every day like at all like it's like I write when there's something to say yeah it really is like a form of therapy which is why I think I need to like know the person I'm working with because I could never just, unless I'm like writing about just like some, like something that's not to do with me.

48:01I could go in there and have fun. The Disney album you're going to sell. Oh my God. I'm going to like, when you're, when you're 79. Oh, and it'll be done in a week. Like it'll be quick. No, but, but when it's my, it's like, I just, you know, it's like writing in a journal almost. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's not really an option for me. It's like, if I got to do it, I got to do it.

48:20Justin Tranter:I get asked all the time of like, you know, because if it's a really crazy week in my life, I can, I can, sometimes there's eight songs written. And I'd be like, how? It's like, well, but it's not about my life anymore. I haven't written a song about my own life in 12 years or something, 13 years. I couldn't, I couldn't tell you how long. So for me, it's, I'm just there to help other people tell their stories. So I don't need to like go and live. But when you're writing about your own life, you have to do that. There's the song Storm is a lyric from like a decade ago, right? What made you go, okay, now I have to, this lyric now has to come to light a decade later.

49:07How does, how do you, what sparked that?

49:10Justin Tranter:Yeah. So Storm was like one of those vine things that happened 10 years ago that people had like always asked me to like finish writing, finish writing and didn't have the life experience for it, I think. And so, you know, 10 years later, I kind of found myself in quite literally a massive storm of life. And I went back to finish it. And I thought, I don't know, I felt like I wanted to like close the gap of like that first album to like now and Safe Haven was that album. And I thought Storm was like the perfect bridge of like, okay, I'm giving you guys this last piece of this era of like Lost Boy and Dandelions.

49:43And we finna go into this new era. All right. Like you guys are going to come with me. And so, yeah, I just, I kind of wrote it when I needed to write it. Same thing and put it out. And yeah, I was just happy to give people something that they'd always been asking for.

49:58Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. Did it, were your, were your OG fans very? They were geeked. They were geeked. They were so happy. Yeah. Like they were like, fine. I mean, I was still getting DMs like 10 years later, but where's this dorm song? Yeah. Cool. How do you, how do you produce something that's a decade? Oh, what's, what is, what, what is your creative producer thought process of like, what do I do with this thing that people already love and blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. It was, it was weird with that because I mean, yeah, again, I kind of was like, even just, you know, watching, basically watching the, the vines that you can now find on YouTube.

50:33Right. And of just that was the genesis of this whole thing, you know what I mean? And kind of like I watched those videos so many times, actually, because it is amazing. And something about the six seconds is wild, right? Where it's just you get just enough of a glimpse into something, but you don't see what came before. You don't see it right in the middle, you know, and it's just it's just really makes you want more. Yeah. And, and, um, I think I, but the thing is, is I really trusted because I did actually, that was one of the first ones we worked on. Right. And so it was, um, yeah. And it was kind of almost before we started the album proper.

51:15Right. And, and, um, and it took a little while to finish cause I was still coming out of my try 20 versions of every song and I, but it was hard because it was something that already existed that people already loved that was out in the world. And how do you kind of do justice to that? How do you figure out what came before and what came after on that Vine video, right? And so I think kind of in a lot of ways, I was really just inspired by that video and tried to just get some of the same mood and try to figure out what it was you were doing. Because it was just this really spontaneous kind of loose moment.

51:47And how do you just, you know, use that to make a full song? And so it took a second to figure out. But it also, I think one of the keys was to get you to play the piano. You know, when we got the piano in there, that was another thing that was a crucial moment, I think, in our process. Yes. Because actually a lot of the songs were written on guitar, right? Guitar, which is so different for me. Which was just something that happened in the process that kind of we were inspired by. But then there was a moment where we both sort of thought, you know what, though? I do think that the songs, this album still needs to be a piano album.

52:21Yeah. So then there was a process of kind of transposing everything to piano. Cool. And then once you started playing the songs on piano, it just, oh, it really came into focus. Because I think then it just sounded like Ruth B. Like, completely. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so that was one of the key things with Storm, too.

52:37Justin Tranter:How did, was piano, like, have you been playing your whole life? How did, is that how you started? Yeah, me too. Yeah, love. Yeah, every song I wrote until I was, like, 33 was always written at piano. Yeah, same. Just, like, me, piano. Yeah, my parents put me in lessons when I was, like, eight. I absolutely hated it. Because, like. Same. It was so boring and I would just like want to play my own stuff. And the teacher would be like, no, like play this. But yeah, no, I, I've always piano. I feel like it's like my perfect dance partner. I always say that like me and my voice and the piano, it's just, you know, home for me.

53:09Justin Tranter:Cole, what did you start on guitar when you were young? I started on piano also. Really? Cool. Yeah. I mean, like as a little kid and then I, I, you know, was in same piano lessons or whatever and didn't love it. And then I kind of switched music teachers. And it was actually an amazing thing because somehow I grew up in Berkeley and there's a lot of weird kind of music scene in Berkeley and a lot of like jazz people and stuff. And I found a teacher that was this jazz musician named Peter Affelbaum. And he was multi-instrumentalist, but he sort of like had drums in his house and had all these other instruments.

53:44So I just came to his house and started trying all these other instruments and playing. And so I got kind of switched to drums for a while. But then, yeah, I just started sort of playing a lot of different instruments.

53:52Justin Tranter:Yeah, I only ever wanted to play piano because I think it's the most glamorous of it all. Honestly. Like guitars, it's like so rowey. It's like get. Can't have your nails done. It's just there's something so glamorous. Like the shoe, your shoes can be like a focal point when you play piano. I agree. You know, there's just like a whole thing. I love it. There's a whole thing happening. Okay, we asked this question of everybody, which is what is the song that ruined your life? in the sense of you heard a song when you were young and you were like, oh, I'm a musician now. I have to do that. Whatever this song just made me feel, I have to now, this is my life now.

54:30I'm gonna go chasing car snow patrol. Cool. Yeah, I distinctly remember being like 13 years old and feeling, like feeling real feelings that were way beyond my ear. I'm like, why am I this heartbroken right now?

54:44Justin Tranter:but I really don't have a boyfriend. No, like I have a crush, like chill out. I literally was in the parking lot waiting for my mom. She's in the grocery store and like it was raining. And I heard that song for the first time. And I was like, whatever this feeling is, I was like, this is wild. And I just, I think that was, I don't think I knew in the moment that I was like, Oh, I want to write music. But I remember that was like the first song that ever like really moved me. Yeah. Yeah. I love that answer. It's a great song. That's a good answer. I, it's so hard for me to answer this question.

55:14I feel like, I don't know if it was the first, but there was this moment when I was, when I was like probably 13, 14, still playing some piano. And I met a friend on through like instant messenger. I don't know how this happened. Like AOL instant messenger? AOL instant messenger. And it was like, it was a, somebody I knew from a, from a class was, was like, I am friends with this person. And he was this guy and he lived in New Jersey and he was an amazing pianist. And I was obsessed with Stevie Wonder at the time. And I remember him and I was, we were IMing about, I was like, oh, I love Stevie Wonder.

55:53And he was like, oh, I know all those songs. I could teach you how to play those songs. And so he like taught me the chords of, and I just remember learning Joy Inside My Tears by Stevie Wonder. And I remember that being just this really, it's like this deep feeling in that song that like as a kid, I couldn't even really connect to, but I knew, you know, I could, I could only connect to it so much, but I felt that there was so much more to it. And it just made me want to go into it and go deeper. And yeah, it just really, it hit me so hard, even as a, as a 13 year old. That's, I mean, that's a pretty high level song to learn.

56:27Justin Tranter:I know. I couldn't play it well, but I could, I could bang it out a little bit enough to like feel it. Are you like a chords, like as chords, like your favorite part of the process for you? Kind of. I just be like obsessed with Stevie Wonder. It makes me think that maybe chords were your, I know. I mean, yes, because I think that for whatever, you know, my, my dad listened to a lot of jazz growing up and I always think that like up my ear completely for like doing pop music. Cause I just was used to such like harmony. You know what I mean? I was used to these chords that were just so much more complex.

57:03And I think that those sound normal to me. You know what I And so, yeah, I do think chords are the thing that really often, I mean, what brings me into a song usually is the chords and the melody. And then the lyric I kind of get a little bit after, but I think that the chords and the melody, that is just what draws me in completely. It's like harmony and melody, you know, and that's what makes me just engaged emotionally. And that's what I'm always looking for.

57:27Justin Tranter:I've never heard someone say like, I love that so much of like growing up with so much jazz and that sounds normal to you. which like in some ways that maybe f***s you over for pop because you're like, no, no, this flat nine is totally normal. So like, why are you playing a natural nine that's so boring? No, and people will be like, I don't know, that's a weird note. And I just don't even, it doesn't register as weird to me, but I just, you know, like I said, come to embrace that stuff. Yeah, that's what makes us all special. I will say my favorite moment on the album is in a song called Pick Me.

58:02And that was one of the ones that I'd kind of written at home and brought to Cole. But in the hook, he like adds this chord. Oh, really? Yeah. And that is my like literal favorite moment.

58:12Justin Tranter:Geek out for us, Cole. What is the chord? I don't even know. I mean, I think I know what you're talking about. You know what I'm talking about. When I played the piano, kind of more towards the end of it. Yes. Yes. I don't know. I don't know. It gets me. Because I never got far enough in piano where I could tell you what chord that is. It's really only just, I just played by ear. It's so good. I don't know where that came from. but I'm going to re-listen to the song now. Listen to Pick Me and you will hear it. It's a subtle moment. It's so subtle. Okay. It's so subtle, but like it's everything.

58:38Justin Tranter:Okay. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. Before we play, we play a game called gag or drag at the end of every episode, but I have to, we have to ask you about your song beginning sampled or interpolated or sampled, right? For Rod Wave. Oh yeah. How does it feel when your song becomes another song? Like what, what just walk me through. I've never, that's never happened to me as a writer. I have definitely interpolated other people's songs. Um, and my first hit fallout boy centuries has a huge Suzanne Vega, you know, interpolation in it, but I've never had it happen to me. How does it, how did that feel? It's really cool.

59:18I got to watch him perform it. Um, maybe it was like two years ago at Barclay center. And, um, he had asked me actually the first time I performed it with him since, but the first time he'd asked me to go up on stage and I kind of was like, you know, I've always dreamed about this moment of like being in the audience and kind of like hearing it. Like, can I please have that? And then we were like, okay, cool. Next time I'll get on stage with you. And I mean, it's so wild because the song that he used was like one of the very first songs I'd written. I was still working at Marshall's. I'd wrote it about this.

59:51Yeah. I love

59:52Justin Tranter:Marshall's. The Marshall's of it is just so glamorous. Marshall's is actually such a nucleus part it's like massive in my life but I wrote it about this lady Mary she was working at the time with me she's like an older lady and she was telling me about the the fights she would have with her husband and she said a line to me she was like you know Ruth like even he he makes me so upset but even when he you know leaves and slams the door like I still set the table for him and wait and that was like the lyric that Rod ends up using but I remember like writing Come on, day job, providing a smash hit lyric.

1:00:23Justin Tranter:I need to find Mary. Like, I need to go back and be like, thank you, Mary. But I just remember in that moment, like hearing it, like I went right back to that moment when she told me that. And I'm like, here I am now. And there's like thousands of people singing these words. And I'm just a part of it. Like, I loved singing it with them. And no one knew that I was like, that they were singing my words. And that was like top five moments of my life. It was so cool to just like be a part of that and feel so anonymous in it. Yeah. I've been lucky enough to because as a writer I have that feeling anytime my songs are performed because I stop performing them right I don't perform them and it is the craziest feeling such a trip of like yeah these bitches have no clue no for real no my cousins take so many videos of me being like everybody everybody no but it's a it's such an insane feeling and I love him he's the best like he's I'm actually singing with him in like a week he's doing like a little special hometown or album show and he's just the best and he's yeah love his music as well yeah that's such an interesting i never thought about that way you you get the experience that like behind the scenes songwriters get yeah you got that experience because of that yes that's exactly right and it was one of my favorite experiences ever ever ever yeah it is it is people ask me all the time like do you miss performing because my band was not known for our songs we were known for our show yeah like do you miss it and i'm like i gotta tell you the feeling of like yeah hearing your songs and you don't have to, you're not doing it.

1:01:52Justin Tranter:There's something really magical about it. I think I might've, I mean, I loved performing it with him too. Don't get me wrong. That was one of the best. I'm like, I think I might've liked just being in the audience a little more. Yeah. It just felt so wild. It was such a trip. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. Okay. We play gag or drag to end every episode. Gag means you love it. Drag means you hate it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Do we say it at the same time? No, you can do it separately. Okay. Or, or we, we've never tried it. Do you want to try it at the same time? No. Okay. We'll take it the way you're talking.

1:02:22Justin Tranter:And this feels like an artist question, but it applies to producer writers too, okay? Obsessed. Gag or drag, someone tells you I liked your old stuff better. Drag. Are you joking? Big drag. That's awful. That's like the nightmare life. I'd be deleting those comments on TikTok. Oh, it is. The comments, I don't know how we let people know that we see the comments. But I think if we let them know, then they're just even more happy about it. Exactly. They're like, no, I wanted you to see this. Yeah. I just silently delete. Like, I'm just like, oh, no. Lost white. No, we want dandelions. Bye.

1:03:08Justin Tranter:Gag or drag, a song you forgot about becomes your biggest song six years later. gag that's my whole life yeah major gag have you ever had one of your old songs go viral yet i haven't had it yet and i'm really really hoping he's like please not not in a big way not in a big way but definitely because a lot of the music i've done is definitely a little more on the kind of like underground indie side that things take sometimes take a while to come around which i think is like the greatest thing of music in this time or streaming or whatever is that like the discovery process is not one week and if you miss that week then it's your song's a failure it can be 10 years later it's amazing what's a song of yours that you that you co-wrote and produced or just produced either one that you really think deserves the spotlight of virality the spotlight of virality I mean like in a not virality but like in a really small way kind of like one of Ariel Pink's, one of my favorite songs I did with him is the song Lipstick that I think is kind of like gone like underground viral in some ways, but I feel like that song.

1:04:16It deserves more. I feel like that song could really go far.

1:04:19Justin Tranter:That's actually one of my favorite songs. That's amazing. Yeah. That's incredible. I didn't even know that. Gag or drag, someone wants to change the lyric that you are the most emotionally attached to. You can say meh. Meh. Yeah. Meh. because sometimes that'll happen and I'll be like, what? But then like. Then they're right. They're right. Yeah, honestly. So that's a meh thing. I mean, yeah, if it's better, if it's better gag. Honestly, yeah. But like most of the time it's not, you know? Yeah, if one of the co-writers, if one of us is obsessed with it, there's a piece of it. Literally, yeah. Yeah.

1:04:56Justin Tranter:Someone hears a piano ballad, gag or drag, someone hears a piano ballad and immediately says, this needs a beat. drag I'm a gag on that one because I'm ready to do the 20 versions you know what I mean that's right up his alley fair fair you already answered this but let's get the rapid fire gag or drag making an entire album with one collaborator instead of doing 30 first date writing sessions gag gag a lag we haven't gotten that one yet I love it But gag or drag, a friend asks what's wrong and you say nothing and then get pissed when they believe you. Gag. Gag. Yeah. You're like, that's the drama.

1:05:43Justin Tranter:Yeah. Like, cry? I thought you were my friend. Please cry. You know, but I think that a lot of, like, therapists would probably tell us if you ask a friend what's wrong and they say nothing, let it happen but it is like no come on we know what we're doing we know this game gag or drag cancelling plans because being alone suddenly sounds better than seeing anybody you love drag for me because I do that every day all the time Morgan I love that you really raised the stakes and said then seeing somebody you love I know and I almost took that part out I was like give it to me you cancel all the time I just like, yeah, I just like, I, I, my social life is, is very, very, very small and I'm working on expanding that.

1:06:35Justin Tranter:I, I can't, I really have a hard time canceling on people. I'm, I'm like, I'm a lifelong people pleaser and like something has to be really, now I will cancel people for work in a heartbeat and my friends know that and so they don't care. But like, if I'm canceling someone cause I just don't want to, you. I wish I was. Call the police. I wish I was more like. Call the police. because I'm not doing well. Okay, gag or drag, someone tells you everything happens for a reason while you're actively going through hell. Drag. Oh my God, that literally just pissed me off. Like, I'm mad. Drag, yeah. There's no reason.

1:07:16Justin Tranter:I say that to people all the time. That's hilarious. I've learned something here today. I'm sorry. I've learned to not, but you know what's funny? when I vent to my best friend Austin and he tries to like solve the problem for me I'm like shut up that's the one that's even worse and he's a very smart person and like probably is giving me correct advice and I'm like no no I'm just I just want to be upset yeah to finish it up what is one advice that you have learned about collaboration something you've learned about collaboration that you wish you could go back and tell yourself when you started?

1:07:56Justin Tranter:A cheat code about collaborating that you have learned now that you wish you could tell yourself 10 years ago? I think for me, I would say to just stay and be open. I think for so long, I was like, I'm going to write all my songs by myself and da-da-da. And like, cool, it works. But what I've learned through collaboration is like, there's so much to learn. And like, every time you get in a room with someone, whether you come out with like an amazing song or not, you, there's something to learn. And I think, you know, with Cole, like, I mean, the whole process to me was just like learning and growing.

1:08:32And I, I really did feel like so excited and honestly honored to be able to work with him because he is so talented and he's so good at what he does and so smart. And like, even when he was just doing his own thing and writing his own thing, I was just like, kind of like a sponge and learning. So I think, you know, as a young kid, sometimes I thought I had it all figured out and Like I knew what I was doing, but I think I would just, you know, just be open. You never know what's going to happen and keep yourself open.

1:08:55Justin Tranter:I love that. That's like really simple advice, but really important. Like I think so. I came into co-writing in my like at like 33. Yeah. And I really fucking wish someone, no one suggested it earlier. Right. And I was like, I really think someone should have. Told you to co-write. Right. Because my whole life changed once I started collaborating. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Mine is kind of similar. I mean, I think that I've had a few experiences that I really try to learn from where, you know, the process of, because I've made a lot of albums and I love making albums. I love, like I said, I'd love to just like dig deep and really create a world from the ground up with an artist.

1:09:37And I think that that process, like making an album is really difficult. It's, you know, it's, you can make a couple of songs, but then to make a full album. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work and it takes a long time. And also it stretches. I think when it's good, oftentimes it'll stretch the people to the point of where it can be torture at times. It can really be like unbearable. Yeah. You know, because you're pushing each other sometimes so hard outside of a comfort zone. People are going through **** in their lives and you're trying to respect the people that you're working with. but you can't force somebody to do something.

1:10:16And you kind of are going on their timeline as much as you are on yours. And there was times when sort of I almost burned bridges and stuff like that. And then, you know, what happened afterwards was something came out and actually was really successful. And what I realized was even though I felt at the time like I was so embittered and I felt like this was such a waste of my time and why did I spend so long doing this and stuff. And then you never know how important the thing that you're doing is when you're doing it. And I just think try to see it through, try to respect the process because you never know what's going to happen with it.

1:10:49And yeah, you know,

1:10:49Justin Tranter:I think that that's, again, another like really awesome, simple piece of advice is just finish it. Just finish it. Like, I think that it's like such a, um, that it, that is such a important skill that a lot of people don't have. And so when things get tough, it's so easy to just be like, you know what? Find somebody else. We already finished four songs. it. I think like, yeah, stay open-minded, be open to collaboration and then just finish it. Finish what you said you were going to do. Yeah, amazing. Ruth, Cole, thank you both so much. This was so fun. It was so fun. I loved it. You're both like the calmest people I've talked to in a long time.

1:11:32Justin Tranter:It's so lovely.

1:11:38Justin Tranter:Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we We say please follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations. And also, pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday.