Troye Sivan + Leland | A Look Inside Their Creative Partnership + How “Rush” Started With a DM

27:35I'm always like, am I actually good at this? Or am I just really cunt? Do you know what I mean? Like, am I just like so charming? But, but like the audience doesn't, like the people listening to songs, they don't know I'm cunt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have no idea. They don't even know my fucking name. Anyway, but I just think about you guys and being able to like, no, no, no, go write that verse right now. This course that your friend sent you is amazing or whatever it is. I wonder like having a creative partner as close as you are, does it help with imposter syndrome? Are you able to be like, no, no, I promise we're killing it?

28:08Or like, how does that work? Because I'm just curious. I definitely still get it. I think like the reason why I get, why I got excited at lunch 30 minutes ago when you said that you were so excited is because like, yeah, I guess, you know, I'm always wondering, I'm like, oh, but like, is this, is this actually good? Am I, I don't know. I, I'm aware of, you know, like just example of the kind of thoughts. It's like a lot of artists that I love have taken turns that I'm like not a fan of, you know, on an album or whatever, where I'm like, oh, yeah. How did nobody like catch that or say something?

28:45Or maybe that's just what they wanted to do. and that's cool, but it's just, I'm just not like, it's not for me kind of thing. And so, yeah, of course I'm scared that like something like that is going to happen where maybe I just, but the thing that relaxes me about it is the reason why I think I don't really struggle with it that much anymore is because historically all of the things that have like, like worked for me have always been things where I'm just like really honest. And so I'm like, okay, that's all I can really, that's all I really have to do is make something that is honestly cool to me, inspiring to me and true to me.

29:23If it feels like if it's real, people can say that it's bad, but they can't say that it's not real. It wasn't where you were in that moment. Exactly. Only you can decide that. Then I'm like, okay, I don't really mind if people don't like it. If it was real, it was real. I think I would be devastated if I tried to, if I forced something and and tried to make something that wasn't true to me, because I thought it was going to work as me, and then it didn't work, that would really suck, I think. So I kind of like remove that from the equation and always just do the thing that I'm like, well, this is like what I really believe in.

30:00So it's like, here we go. Yeah. Do you have imposter syndrome? I do. I mean, I find myself definitely in rooms sometimes where I just have to remind myself of the journey and that it's just something I can always tap into. And some days it's great. And some days it's not great, you know? Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I definitely will feel imposter syndrome. I mean, especially when you get what I love, and I know I feel like all of us excel in this environment, is just being thrown into the deep end. Yeah. And that's a feeling that I feel like I chase for sure. Do you guys ever feel like you're thrown into the deep end when you're together because the relationship is so close?

30:41or is it like you just push each other in there as a unit? Sometimes I feel like we're wearing it together. Yeah, definitely. Sometimes we'll be in a room where, again, one of our looks, I'll look at him and we just know it's like, well, this is kind of like tough or this is scary or this is crazy or this is amazing. Like, holy shit, can't believe that we're here kind of thing. And that happens all the time, yeah. Yeah. Was there like a producer you guys worked with and you're like, oh, I can't believe we finally got in this room? Yeah, for me recently, we've been writing with Circuit. and I, I mean, I feel like...

31:14Friwa doesn't know Cirque's a huge pop producer and in this moment, he's kind of like the king of perfect pop production. Wait, is that fair? Like that's kind of like... Yeah, yeah. There's dance pop elements, but he does all types of genres. And all pop, rock, pop, yeah. Like it's just like, he is this kind of king of perfection, but it doesn't make it, it doesn't mean that it's like clean and unfeeling. There's still lots of feeling, but it's like perfect. Yeah, and for me, I've like struggled with it. It probably is the imposter syndrome, but anytime I'm in with like a producer that like their reputation precedes them to me personally, like I have kind of melted down and not really been able to like choke for sure.

31:58Yeah, like Mark Ronson. I mean, Back to Black is like literally, that was like the album that made me want to start songwriting and I have just like never been able to do anything good in the room with him. Wow. Yeah, so like it definitely happens. I still sweat profusely every time I see Max Martin. We've never written together, but just like even bumping into him at the studio and stuff like that. So I was really excited by the circuit sessions because you know I was really nervous. Yeah. And I'm kind of like working through it. All these people are so nice as well. that's part of that's the thing yeah yeah yeah so welcoming it is very rare that there are like huge in our field hit makers but in whatever creative fields you're in it is there are some big people who are assholes that is true but what's that i'll tell you after i'll tell you one now one after one after um there are but for the most part most really successful people are yeah and they're good They're good collaborating.

33:04That's why they've gotten there. Exactly. Because they're good collaborators. It's hard to be mean and a good collaborator. There are people that are really good because they will just bully the artist. Well, imagine if I bully this. Or the artist will just bully. Or the artist will just bully the collaborators to get there. Right. And I think that that can work when you are in your prime. You're like, no, I know what this is, and I promise everyone it's going to fucking work. Shut up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen writers do that I've seen producers do that And I've seen artists do it But the problem is Is once they get used to that behavior The second like They're having like a bad month Then the songs are just The craziest shit you've ever heard They're The like A song you guys wrote That you weren't sure about And you're like I don't know if this is it And then it's like Now like a fan favorite What?

33:57Oh yeah Great fucking song Totally yeah Yeah we We started that one And then I was like, this is not going well. I mean, I liked the concept and I liked that. That's another good thing about having like a gay bestie is like we're working with Oscar Halter, who I adore, love him so much. He's like a straight man. And I don't think he had a clue what we were writing about, which is like perfect. Yeah, you don't need to know. Don't worry about it. Yeah, exactly. Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please follow and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations.

34:39And also, pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show. It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday. Peter Spenson, who is incredible. We left, and what happened? Well, we left that day after writing. I was already excited about it I knew this was I was just thinking crazy thoughts but I was so excited about it but then I also knew to just like let you live with it that's really a thing and also to let me live with it but we went back the next day Oscar had worked on it Oscar had stayed and he actually completely flipped he flipped the idea totally production wise he completely flipped it so then that changed it for you when I heard it the next morning I was like, oh, wait, cool.

35:29I just knew I loved like the phrasing and the lyric of that chorus. And it felt just really special to me. But then he played it for us. And we also, producers love like a presenting moment. You know, they love to work on it and present it. Or they also love to surprise you and understate it. Yeah. And then it's amazing, you know. But then even after that, the song sort of just like lived on the outskirts for a while. and then do you remember when it became like a thing and then the name of the album and the name of the tour? I mean, that's crazy. I don't know if I like this. And then it's the name of the album and the name of the tour.

36:07Yeah. No, I don't really remember. I think, I mean, thematically, I remember just like the album kind of being like a bit of a coming of age. Yeah. And so then the song became like a lot more relevant. But that's probably what it was, just realizing that that song wasn't going to be so scary and to like so extreme as maybe we initially thought. Yeah, and the subject matter. And that also something that I love when we write is that funny is good. There are so many iconic songs that are really fucking funny if you are listening to the lyrics specifically. And I feel like it's such a weird, things have gotten funnier lately, thank God, whether with Sabrina, with Chappell, like pop music has gotten funny again.

36:55it is so like you guys, like do you guys, how many like songs that you loved when you were kids are actually hysterical. You were just too young to realize they were hysterical. You guys always have that sense of humor in it, but then you can do it really emotional. The, uh, one of your girls, one, is that what it's called? Yeah. Like that is kind of funny, but it's also really emotional. And for queer people who've lived these type of experiences, it is traumatic, but it is also kind of funny. Yeah. We were dying laughing writing those verse lyrics. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And then also just like, I'll be like one of your girls or your homies.

37:33Like that was kind of like a funny lyric. Yeah. Take your pick. Anything but your boyfriend. I could be your girl or your homie, but like, don't worry, don't take it seriously. It's fine. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's going back to the production change because that is such a crazy part of collaboration, right? Like when, before I comment on production, I actually have to ask another question. in bloom once the production changed did a lot of the lyric and melody change or would it was basically the same thing that was a that was another thing as well was i remember like making music back then was a very different process for me where it was like i i didn't really know how to like sing in the studio in the way that like i don't think i had really like the control um i'm not saying that i'm like some crazy singer now but i feel like i know my voice a lot better and I know how to kind of like sing into a mic in different ways to get the textures that I'm after and stuff.

38:27And I remember Bloom being hard to sing and like not fun for me to record. And so I don't know what Halter did overnight. Maybe it's best that I don't know, but he whipped that vocal into shape. It's someone else singing the song. It's actually Oscar singing. But he really whipped that vocal into shape and then like that made me feel a lot better about it, I think. Yeah. I used to like, it hasn't happened in a really, really, really long time, but this is probably another reason why it's so nice to have a friend is I used to get like, like I would get really sad and like overwhelmed and like if I felt like something wasn't working, I would get kind of like embarrassed.

39:10Oh, really? Yeah, just like not, I don't know, just like it's not, if I'm having a hard time seeing something in the booth, I don't think anyone enjoys that feeling, but I really don't like that feeling. And that's where like the imposter syndrome used to be really hectic for me. It was like, if I'm writing, before I understood how making an album looks, it's like I was as good as the song that I wrote that day. Yesterday or that day, yeah. And so I was just a lot more kind of like up and down with how I felt about the album, myself, what I was doing and everything like that. And so, yeah, now those, I still feel sometimes those feelings of like frustration if I know I'm not like nailing something or if I'm not whatever.

39:50But it's, I'm so kind of like, I expect those waves that they seem, they're so much more mild than they used to be. But having a friend, I think is really nice. And also someone that like, you know that he knows that you're really fucking good. Exactly. So even if you're having an off day, you're like, well, at least one person in the studio knows that I'm actually fucking fierce and I'm just having a weird day. It is true. It's like, it is like going into the, I've had sessions where I'm, if it's all new people and I really pride myself in some days I'm going to lead, I'm going to be the lead writer of the song.

40:27And then some days I'm just, I'm really just here to help someone be the best versions of themselves. So it is so beautiful to have a long-term collaborator. Cause even on a day where God is so-and-so going to think that I don't actually do anything, you know, it's, it's a tough it's such a vulnerable thing to do that having this long-term creative partner is so important i think it's also just like ego checking like checking your ego at the door which i don't even think not to like speak for us but i don't think we really even have to do that i'm i know totally i'm excited to write with other people and i love when we bring in new people yeah and i also just instinctually know that there's someone new in the room yeah so i need to make sure and like which I would do anyways, but give them space because they're, they're here and we're not with them all the time.

41:13Yeah. So let's like mine those ideas and hear what they like take as much as they can give. Yeah. You know, because we are writing together every day and we can always work on a song and revise a song and do all those things afterwards. Yeah. But we've got a new collaborator. So let's listen and give some space. Absolutely. What do you guys think writing so many songs together and being this close, but specifically about writing, not about the friendship part. What do you think you've learned from each, about yourself as a writer or even as a person from the writing process with each other? Is there like a skill that you've taken from the other or like a way to like deal with an asshole producer?

41:52Like, is there, what do you think like you've learned the most from the other person?

41:58I mean, there's just, I mean, there's so much. There's so much. but I know I think I mean less about myself I just I know when I need to take something to you like it's funny you know like someone like Oscar Gores who we also work with all the time him and I I remember we were doing some like I think we were doing what's the time where you are or something we were working on something just the two of us and at one point I was kind of like stuck and even he knows He's like, get him on FaceTime. And I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Get on FaceTime and like bing, bang, bong. It was like done. So it's like - That's amazing.

42:41It's like a puzzle solver sometimes. Yeah, just knowing when you've taken something as far as you can and just ask for fucking help. Totally, or you need to like - And I love that workflow because I love him taking the space. If he's got some tracks at home or a track idea that he's building at home, I love when he calls me and he started something. Yeah. That is so exciting to me. I don't need to be there for like the birth of everything or the inception of everything. I think one of my like skill sets is hearing something and offering my advice on what would be, what would make it better. Level it up.

43:15Yeah, absolutely. So I love that workflow. It's so fun. What I love about that specific job in terms of writing and collaborating is it is actually a different skill set than starting something from scratch. like helping someone else take what they've done across the finish line is a completely different way of thinking about writing it's not like what's that magic crazy lyric that's going to change our lives because it's probably already there else he wouldn't bring it to you but you need to figure out how to frame that lyric you need to figure and that is a different way of thinking um i have a question i think it's just for you uh no offense but i'm just actually really curious because you do so many different types of writing.

43:59So like finishing something for someone is a different skill set. Starting something is a different skill set. When you are writing a pop smash with Troye Sivan, for Troye Sivan, how is that different than writing a comedy song for RuPaul's Drag Race? Someone finally asked it. Because I'll do stuff for film and TV or for musical theater. And there's a slight difference because like all of a sudden the script is my pop star, not the pop star, but writing a straight up slapstick comedy song for a bunch of fabulous drag queens, I'm assuming is a different skill set than writing a pop smash with your best friend.

44:40It absolutely is. I do think sometimes it's a gray area, which to me is like my favorite. You know, that's the place I like to play in the most. Yeah. where it's maybe a seed of an idea. And I'm like, well, this is ridiculous. This could go 10 different ways. But for Drag Race specifically, it's to make Rue laugh. It's to make Rue laugh and it's to make me laugh. And then it's to play it for Troy and for Troy to laugh or give, you know, it's funny because we spend so much time together and talk all the time. He is in album mode, but he's also in Drag Race mode in a way because he is listening and giving notes.

45:22And there's three seasons at any time. So it's a lot of work. Never stopping. So it is my full-time job, but it's also his part-time job, which is so fun. But it is a different beast completely. But what I do, I love nothing more than in the morning working on Drag Race and in the afternoon working on Troy's album. That's like a dream day to me. I think, you know, I think just because I'm loud and do a lot of press, people think that I'm the gayest person in the music business. I'm not. You literally are. You are doing Drag Race in the morning and Choice of Out in the afternoon. That is so gay.

46:01I'm not quiet about it, but I'm quiet about it, you know? It is really fun. I just do like chapel round and wear heels, so people assume I'm the gayest, but you're actually the gayest by far. I do think— By far. I don't know, but I think we're right there, neck and neck, for sure. No, it's a huge compliment. That's so funny. When I really break it down, you are the queen homosexual. That's so funny. And I think we need to all just accept that. I love that. What, when you guys were young, we're doing a moment in every episode of like, what ruined your life in the sense of like, oh fuck, this song is so good.

46:39This video is so good that now my life is ruined because I have to be in the music business. And that's an awful thing to do. So what song or video or concert, for both of you, question for both of you, what ruined your life? Yeah, I mean, so just to quickly touch on it, you know, I grew up in South Mississippi and in a very conservative part of the country, the most conservative state, all of that. So I, and in a pretty conservative home. but um MTV and TRL I was just the perfect age for that too and I also had a 45 to an hour window of being home before everyone else right when TRL was on oh it was just me and the TV and I would look forward to it every single day and I would make my like frappuccinos and what how old were you I was I mean I was also obsessed I had a brief chapter obsessed with like coffee syrups because you know we would go to i feel like you know this because we would go i would go to coffee shops and there would be the rose and i'm like well i want that at home right so um i was just making milkshakes every day basically well basically you were you were you were a mixologist before you could have a cocktail wait how i need to know because this is important for like what era of tRL but also need to know how young you were making frappuccinos because that's insane this was i think i was 14 15 making frappuccinos yeah yeah yeah absolutely that is the gayest thing And I just had this hour at home.

48:09So I would watch TRL. And I just remember Britney Spears being on TRL, shutting down Times Square, Backstreet Boys, Jessica Simpson, Destiny's Child. Yeah. But it worked out beautifully that I won tickets on the radio to see the Oops, I Did It Again tour. Shut. At the Superdome. I always wondered if those radio things are actually real. They were real. And I called, called, called in my room with the door shut, very quiet. But then I never thought that I would get through. So then I did win. And I ran into my parents' bedroom live on the radio. And live on the radio. You get the clip. And I know I do need to get it.

48:46We have to find this clip. That would be amazing. And I screamed. I was like, I won, I won. And one of my parents did not want me to go. And the other said that they would take me. And so we went to the Superdome. And it was that just seeing that show in person and seeing her in person at that time. and how I choreographed that whole album in the living room multiple times, new dances every day, all original. So that was so impactful for me. And it made me fall in love with pop music. And it also, I think in a way, realized that it would lead me to my people. Wherever this is happening, there are people that I know are going to see me and that I'm going to just absolutely fall in love with.

49:32And that's exactly what happened. you know my group of friends here yeah and that they are just that's the dream yeah that's absolutely the dream so that was it that that concert that moment and then i think full circle was just her her vma performance of oops i didn't have the nude bodysuit and that sort of like sealed the deal i was ready to come out at that point you're like that's it yeah i was like that's it i'm done i need a nude bodysuit tonight yeah i'm gonna glue my own stones yeah i That's a good one. It's a really good first concert. Unbelievable. Yeah. Do you remember a moment specifically where you're like, oh, fuck, music has taken me over?

50:10It was... I mean, okay, so there's like... There's probably... I mean, there's so many of these moments. Like, I can pinpoint probably like five or six really, really, really significant ones. But I remember... I remember really clearly hearing and seeing the video for Together Again by Janet Jackson. and I remember like the feeling of that chorus and just how warm it felt and seeing her dancing and everything like that I was like oh my god this is like the this is the most beautiful thing I've ever heard in my life like it was like the feeling of it but then the crazy thing was that obviously at that time this is like pre-streaming and stuff like that and I was probably even too young to like know who she was or asked to go like buy the cd or anything like that so it was this like rare it felt really special.

50:58And I remember having to like, when it happened again, when the song came on again, I was like so happy and so excited because I got to hear the song again. And I wanted to understand, I remember wanting to understand like, what is it about that? It was like the chords, I think. But there was like this warmth and this kind of like melancholy warmth, like this like, I don't know, this like happy, sad thing that I think has like informed my entire music career. Listening to you say it, I can, I hear it. I know what you're talking about. That is the feeling that I had when I was like five or something like that, that now I'm still like constantly chasing.

51:33And the thing that I love the most in the world, like when some warm chords come in over something that feels like maybe a little kind of sad, I'm just like, it still gets me the same way that it did when I was like a kid. Yeah. It is crazy how like the first round of like chord structures that you fell in love with will endlessly inform you. I was so, mine, because I'm much older than you guys, is it was all of the alt female singer-songwriters of the early slash mid-90s. And there was so many of them where the upper structure of the chord would stay the same. Yes, the bass changing. The bass would change.

52:11And there's just like, it just feels like, not childhood, but early teens when I was finding myself. So anytime anyone does that, I'm like, yeah, it's perfect. even though it might actually be wrong for the song but I don't care because there's such a there's such a core memory to that type of chord structure that it like doesn't, have you met Janet? Never. Really? And I mean one of the other most significant moments in my life was seeing her at the Hollywood Bowl not that long ago, maybe like five years ago or something like that and that show completely informed our whole like last album I can hear it, yeah she's a gal, North Star for sure I mean, she's just...

52:55Also, so many of her songs, it was like high-level musicianship choices in those chords. Absolutely. Even though the average person's probably listening to them just like, oh, these are fun, and she's dancing, that's kind of... No, it's actually like some serious... Beautiful lyrics. Beautiful. Yeah, master craftsman. Did you ever get to meet Britney or work with Britney? No. Hey, it's Christy from Lululemon. I'm here at the office, and we just dropped some really fun new summer colors in the Flow Y styles. If you're like me, you've loved the Flow Y tank and bra for years. And as of this year, it also comes in a dress and a crop tank.

53:27These are made in our buttery soft Nulu fabric. And my favorite part is the built-in bra. It makes it super easy to wear for yoga or honestly, as an everyday basic. You can find Flow Y styles in store or online at lululemon.com. No, no, no. In my head, like, I thought you were going to be like, well, and here she is. Here she is. I mean, if, if, if, if I don't think she's making music anymore, but if she was, I would, I would send the text to make sure you could get the album. I just think it's, it's for me, all these alt queens, it's rare that I'm going to get the chance to write with them. But I did get a few.

54:03I've gotten Courtney Love. I've gotten Gwen Stefani. Yeah. So I did. I think it is. People say don't meet your heroes, but I think you should. Oh, absolutely. I mean. I think you should. My list, the top of my list is, is Barbra Streisand. but even just writing a song for Cher has been the craziest thing and I could never tell everyone what the song is DJ play a Christmas song it's Cher Christmas again you're the gayest person you win again I think you know this story but I just remember being in Mississippi and our big venue was the Coliseum and Cher was playing the Coliseum and I remember hearing that there were elephants and all these things and just like a huge spectacular spectacularly gay show.

54:48I was like, I, and I knew that I could not ask for tickets because that would be sort of revealing a part of myself that I was not ready to share at the time, to share at the time. So I didn't, I have yet to see her live. And I think, I think I will. You have to. Isn't it so crazy growing up? I hate to say closet because we were too young to even make the choice, but we were, I guess, right? That like admitting that you liked certain things. And depriving yourself of expressing that out of fear. I remember, I mean, so much. I used to, even after I came out, I would still like sense myself. I used to like watch America's Next Top Model in my room.

55:29You know what I mean? Wow. And not in the main, in the family room. Not on the TV. Yeah. Or, you know, little things like, but I mean, also I think it impacted the music that I liked as well because like one of the other significant moments was finding Robin for me and that was a shift as well where I was like, oh wait, pop is like, pop is not a dirty word and it's like it can be so cool and because i feel like at the time everything was was sort of like anti-pop and pop was like lame and cheesy and stuff um and then finding robin and then finding just like swedish pop in general yeah and then finding out that scandinavia like the gay marriage was legal and stuff this is like right as i'm like realizing that i'm gay and love pop and everything i was like okay cool i'm gonna like move to norway or Sweden.

56:12That was a real thought though. Fully a real thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100 % I was like, I guess I just need to move to the next Scandinavia. A marriage is legal and the music is... And Robin is there. And Robin is there. Have you met Robin? I've met Robin. I was like, you have, you guys are like such like kindred creators. I feel like you have to have met. I really love her. It is, there are, because you know, when I was growing up, pop was such a dirty word. If you liked pop, you weren't cool at all. Yeah. And it was Gwen Stefani's Love Angel Music Baby. I was like, guys, we all have to admit this is cool.

56:39I was in a glam punk band in Brooklyn. Yeah, shouting from the rooftops. I was like, can we all just stop being idiots? This is cool. Britney's Blackout. Guys, let's just be honest. This is fucking cool. Robin. Cool. Cool. And now I think pop has not been a dirty word for like at least a decade. Totally. But it is. Robin was, I think, hipsters fully were like, oh, fuck it, Robin's. Yeah. Robin's good. That's also something that's so funny about cool. in music that I think about all the time when we're in studio is like, like someone like Charlie XCX. I just feel like, I mean, she's the epitome of cool to me, to the entire world now.

57:22Like, you know, and yet in the studio, there's like a pop nerd there. You know what I mean? Like she just like loves to make music. And I think there's something really charming to me about like, um, musicians, it's like the, the part that the world gets to see is like the, the tiniest little, tiniest little bit of the work that is like finished and out there and everything like that. And there's all this stuff before it that like, and it's, it's really charming to me to, to, I love when I see someone that I super, super, super admire, um, just kind of like going through that process of having to kind of like work through, you know, some great ideas, some not great ideas and whatever, you know?

58:05Yeah, we're all, I think to be great at something, you have to be a fucking geek. You just do. You're geeking out over it. It's just a fact. It's like in my era in Brooklyn, like all these hipster bands, I'm like, you're all like obsessed with Star Wars. Stop acting like you're so fucking cool. And I'm a big sci-fi geek as well. It's like, guys, can we just not, like I went to music school. That's the least cool thing in the world. like I had to like learn jazz songs you know what I mean like it's like this obsession with we're all fucking geeks to be great at it you have to be a geek as you guys evolve as co-writers and friends and are there is there things that you like I can't believe we used to write so much about this or so much you're like it's in this new era we can't talk about this again or do you not put like those sort of rules on yourselves I don't think there's any rules I think what What's so nice about this process is that life, it's not two separate things where life is happening over here and an album is being made over here.

59:09It's very, very much intertwined. So sometimes there will be melodic ideas where the right lyric or story may not have happened yet or the aha moment or the conclusion of not drama, but whatever's going on might not be there yet. So I really don't think we put limitations on ourselves in that way. And it's also just like the right word at the right moment, falling at the right time, being presented in the right way. If it lands, then that's sort of where we start. I also think the way that we write most often, I have like an aversion to like concepts, like anything that feels too concept-y. I feel like I hear the writers in the room and I'm like, oh no that doesn't it doesn't like um I don't know I think because honesty is like the thing that I'm striving for above all else if it feels too thought out or too contrived or something like that then it kind of can put me off a little bit so um for us when we're writing it's like almost always um you're just sort of writing and then and then like a little word that might seem quite like menial and mundane yeah um you think about it in a different way or you say it in a in a fresh way or something, or just in the room would be talking about the concert.

1:00:30And then it kind of like comes. So yeah, when thinking about things that we've written in the past, I'm like, all of those things just felt like accurate at that time. And really at that time, I wouldn't write them again now, probably, you know, like, but - Because you're not there. Yeah, exactly. But I think there's something like now, if I was to go back and listen to my first album, it would feel like a little endearing to me. Like, it's kind of like, oh, it's sweet. That's where I was at at that time. Do you do it? Do you go back and listen to things? No, not really. Really? I listen to my own music like incessantly when I'm making it.

1:01:06And then when it's done, I'm like basically don't really listen to it again. Really? Yeah, like I don't know. I mean, I hear it all the time on tour and stuff like that. How does it feel when you're in, because I fucking Uber hearing your song in an Uber, like when you're in like, because I think we talk so much about like, like the world needs like queer joy in the art. And you guys, I think do that better than maybe anybody right now. Like you really do, like your music is queer joy. Like when you're in a gay club and your song comes on, can you have fun or are you like, oh, this is so weird?

1:01:41More, it's so weird. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the one time where I really, really, really had fun was Grammy after party with, it was like my first time being nominated and it was for Rush and it came on at the after party and it was like the place went crazy really? I don't want to put words in her mouth but there's a video of Dua saying like she's like drunk off her tits and she's like a song of the year and all of a sudden it's all on video and it was raining so hard that night and so water was leaking through the tent while the DJ was going crazy and it was just absolutely euphoric. And all of Troy's family and friends from Australia were there.

1:02:27It was a really magical moment. It was really, really cool. And Alex Chapman was DJing, I believe. Yeah, yeah. Who was on the song with us. Sick. So it was great. Can you have fun because you are the unfamous? Well, but you're in gay community because of drag race and everything. You kind of are famous. He's gay famous for sure. You might not know, like, because I think we both probably at gay bars get recognized. but they might not know exactly what our full discography is. So can you have a little bit more fun if it comes on? Yeah. And I can also like make it a fun, stupid moment. Like for us.

1:02:59Yeah. Rush came on when we were at high tops one time and we, Oh, and one of our friends will like whip out his Shazam as a joke and like, Oh yeah. You know, like it's those types of things. Like those are the moments. I think I love those types of things. And going back to Troy, what you said about like a concept writing, I had just finished my concept era right before we met. Thank God. So I feel like now I get my, I flex the concept muscle with drag race. Cause that's, that's actually the huge difference where drag race, you pick the concept and every lyric goes, every lyrics, a joke at that concept direction.

1:03:33Well, but what, what year did you guys meet? I think 11 years ago now. Right. So, so 2013, 2011, 12, 13, it was all. It was concept. That's what was getting cut. Someone like Sia did it so well. So this is not a cut to Sia, but like Sia would be like titanium right towards it. Everyone else is shooting for that and not getting there. Yeah. She's getting it, which is amazing. We all tried to copy it. It sounded like a fucking idiot. It's like for myself, I like it when it sneaks up on you a little bit. Yep. Where it doesn't feel like I'm like trying to, you know, hit something home, you know? No, I think.

1:04:08That's a rush. I know, literally. I was just thinking that. Like the TikTok. that is the because we've we did which i was both stories you guys told about like what music ruined your life were both so beautiful and like shed light on like all of our queer experiences of like we love this and we might not even tell people like if i know for me i look back at my younger self and trying to be successful was a form of revenge of like, you have all been so awful to me at public school. You're all fucking terrible. I'm going to get so fucking successful that you are going to regret that I'm not your fucking friend.

1:04:54And I wish I could like go back and tell my younger self, like that definitely turn all that bullying and all that pain. I think it is good that I turned it into like motivation, but like living off of revenge is probably not healthy. And I hate that you went through that and had that experience. Because where did you go to school? I grew up like 40 miles outside of Chicago. But I came out of the closet at 14 years old in 1994 and grew up across the street from a pig farm. Wow. I probably shouldn't have come out. It would have been better to not. But as we all know, the bullying starts before you even come out because the kids can fucking smell it.

1:05:29But knowing that there was ways for me, I thought the only way to succeed was to become the most famous person alive. and I think it's so great having conversations like this because yes, you are famous, but how amazing that you have this queer co-writer with you, that you get to go on this journey together and succeed in different ways, succeed in friendship, succeed in greatness. Is there things like you wish you could tell your younger self of like, chill out about this or like, just wait, it is going to be good. Because I would tell your younger self like, Like, no, keep fucking dreaming big, but like maybe don't be so mad about it.

1:06:10Like it's going to be, you don't have to be mad to be successful. What would I say? More than, I don't think I would really tell him anything other than to just like relax. Because I think it's so funny, but now when I think back to like me as a kid, it's like all of the signs were so there that I would kind of grow into the adult that I am now. I remember I have memories of I had a tape recorder and I would hit record and I had a fan in my room because I grew up in Perth in Australia. It's super hot. And I would put the recorder on the other side of the fan and sing through the fan. Because if you've ever spoken through a fan, it makes it like, to me, that was like a Britney effect.

1:06:58Love it. It was like sickening. You were making your own auto-tune at the time? By the way, if you don't fucking sing through a fan on the next album, I'm going to protest. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I remember the first time I was on TV, it was like local TV in Perth. And I saw a green screen when I walked into the studio. And I remember asking the guy, I was like, can you do, I guess Britney was huge. I was like, can you do Britney Spears style effects on this green screen? like little things like that where I'm like or the first time I remember how unbelievably excited I was the first time that I figured out how to double my vocal and I was not even doing it right I was like in GarageBand I just like duplicated the vocal and then made it a tiny bit delayed so it sounded like phasey and I was like oh wow this is like this sounds like a pop thing so like all of those things like I was I think that a big part of it was feeling like other and gay and nerdy and stuff I kind of just like accepted it.

1:08:00And I was like, okay, I'm just going to go into my room and like make stuff. And I think that, I don't know, sometimes I'm like, oh, had I have had more friends or had I have like been straight or been like, I don't know, good at sport, like all the things that people valued at the time. It was like either at my school, you were either like academic or sporty. Those were the things that people, the arts program was like a nightmare. and um all of those things ended up like kind of pushing me into my room pushing me onto the internet yeah pushing me into fucking around on logic and like learning how to you know and like nerding out and yeah um and so though maybe they didn't feel like great at the time i i'm so like i don't know i i i'm really happy that they all kind of like happened the way that they did and stuff yeah so i i don't know that i would really have any advice for him other than just like just keep like enjoying yourself and doing the things that feel like exciting to you whether like doubling your vocal or singing through the fan or whatever like yeah all of those things you're still going to be doing them when you're like an adult you know it's going to be your literal job yeah exactly singing through the fan a version of it is going to be your actual job it's the same thing that's beautiful yeah like for real beautiful yeah yeah it made me think about a couple things.

1:09:22One is that I would still tell my younger self, you are going to be fine, but you are going to have to work really hard. You're going to have to work really hard. You can't like sit back and just let it work out. You have to push and like break down doors for this to work out. And then the other thing I would say is I remember so well wishing my life would change at certain points, you know, wishing my circumstances would change, wishing that I remember like going to church like three times a week, sometimes more and, and being like, I can't wait to not have to do this, you know, um, and, or to, and to also just be able to explore spirituality on my own at my own pace.

1:10:11And just because I'm curious, just explore. But I remember just wishing so many times my circumstances would change and I would tell myself now, all of those experiences are essential to making me, to make like this version of me. The artist you are. Art, because there will be moments where I'm having to pull from those experiences on certain projects. So I was working on the other two, the HBO show. A masterpiece, by the way. Which was so fun, and I had to write some praise and worship songs for it. You're like, I got this bitch. I don't need to do any research. Jesus fucking Slays was one of them.

1:10:47And My Brother's Gay and That's Okay. You know, all those. That song is actually brilliant. Go on, go on. But I did. And even with Drag Race, when we're doing gospel numbers or just anything that's like, especially, you know, I was a Nora, and I still am. But at a certain point in my life, I was like Nora Jones, like number one fan. My friend Michael's going to kill me for saying that because he is. But really going back to the circumstances I was in, I'm so happy I went through them. And just telling myself that life will change when it's supposed to. But it would not have changed unless I worked incredibly, incredibly hard.

1:11:26I'm sure both of you relate to this where I could have moved home 20 times. Probably more. But I had to turn the ship around. Yeah. I almost quit like, cause the band had crumbled, not us. We still love each other. The business side of the band had crumbled and that's a whole other story that we don't need to get into. And I had been writing for other people, but like, it just wasn't happening. I was like doing both of the last end of it, the band and writing for the people. It just wasn't happening. I was like, fuck it. I think I just have to go back to New York and I'll just work in a jewelry store again.

1:11:57And I do love jewelry. So there could be worse things, but, and like no joke. I was like making plans to move back to New York and got the email that centuries by follow boy was going to be the first single from the album. Like in the, like in planning to just fully be like, all right, music wasn't for me. I tried really hard. Okay. So we're going to play a little game that Morgan, my amazing producer and co-creator of this podcast invented called gagged or dragged. So I'm just going to list very short things, opinions, thoughts, trends and you if you love it it's a gag and if you hate it it's a drag rhyming bed with head uh gag really yeah okay rhyming crazy with baby gag yeah absolutely dad i gotta say and also party with body like those are my body is maybe it's my half rhyme it's yeah it's like kind of oh your accent is a dead rhyme yeah perfect right got it like a whispered chorus where the beat drops out So a down chorus.

1:13:02Depends on the decade. I want you to explain that. I love that. The pop geeks are going to love this answer. It just depends on when it feels cool. Okay. And when it hasn't happened long enough and it depends in the context. But I think I would love the assignment because I think that would be fun to execute. But that's not something that we will do typically. You know, it's the one, and we've all definitely done it, myself included, but the one that is like a drag to me is, when it's a drop-down chorus, but with, like, a bass guitar still. Yeah, it's happened. We've been there. Oh, yeah. I mean, we've done it.

1:13:39I'm pretty sure it's like that, but, like, we... I don't want to do it anymore, for sure. Yeah, fair. TikTok ruining the bridge of songs, a.k.a. TikTok making songs too short. Oh. Or shorter, because too short is me giving my opinion. Sorry. TikTok... TikTok, like, I think, subconsciously encouraged the whole music business to shorten everything. drag yeah definitely yeah give us a we'll write a bridge we love an outro we love an intro love but then also like sometimes the song is better shorter just depends what's right no yeah i love the idea of like a relentless like hit you in the face pop song that's like from beginning to end every single choice is like completely intentional and it's like something about that perfection is interesting to me but um so it's like sometimes a six minute thing with a long slow fade out like describing a hookup or a sexual encounter, uh, with lots of detail.

1:14:31Yeah. Gag. In the song. Yeah. Gag. 1000. Gag. Actually gag. Um, this is more for you, but you have written for other people. So it could be for you too. Writing a song for a pop girl and then realizing it's actually just about yourself. Oh. Yeah. I mean, gag for sure. Right. Cause then you're putting yourself in the place. The song is going to be more honest, even though like, you don't know what it's like to be like a rich straight girl. Absolutely. I mean, we can we which is so nice. We've you've done it to the like highest level you can and in the best way. But we've both written for Selena.

1:15:10And I think that's both of our like little gay boy dreams of of putting like giving giving something to someone that they can world build around. and that's so fun to me not only do we get to be a fan and know where we would love for an artist to go but to get to contribute to that in a small way is really really fun yeah it's really also you know like the women experience in this world and what gay men experience is very different but there is a lot of similarity and to be able to like be a part of that and I think a more honest way than like some random straight dude writing for a young woman.

1:15:50I think ours is a gag. It's fully a gag. Calling someone a gay icon when they aren't actually gay. The world calling someone a gay icon when they're actually gay. I actually think that there is certain people who just burn it. Like... Janet. Yeah, for sure. But also in general, I feel like even in the world, you can immediately feel when there's like a straight girl who like really, really, really gets it, in my opinion. And has spent real time with gay people. Ariana. Yeah. She is like, you meet her and you're like, oh, you just like completely, completely, completely understand. Yeah. And I don't know if it's because she grew up with like a gay brother or whatever, but like, it's just like, there's just this immediate...

1:16:37You're on the same wavelength. I'm like, okay, Sarah Hudson. She gets it. There's a few people where I'm just like, they don't miss a thing. Yeah. I'm meh about it because in certain instances Madonna earned it what she did for queer people specifically in the AIDS crisis it is so real I just want we need more famous gay people and gay people need to like worship each other more instead of I do think there are so many straight women performing our culture back to us and that makes us more comfortable in a way because we don't have to see ourselves. We can see a performative version of ourselves.

1:17:20Now, some gay icons have earned it and that is no shade to them. And if you're offended by me saying this, you clearly didn't earn it. And if you earned it, you're not offended. I just want like, you're a gay icon and like we should be lifting you up the same way that we lift up a straight woman performing us back to ourselves. so I just feel like it's a meh for me because if you've earned it I'm in if not I just want more gay gay icons we have you we have chapel we have Lil Nas it's getting better but I want more I want gay icons in saying that I can definitely think of a few people I can think of a few people who I would be like if somebody called them that I would be like a little sus but I agree I think a lot of it is also just like in between the music like how do you like really write are you like write or die or like how real is this to you And I think that's what I mean with like, you know, I think you can feel it usually.

1:18:15Yeah. To wrap this all up, collaborating and co-writing, well, co-writing because it's us, right? But collaborating, I think, is just the only way to really make great art. And if you had one piece of advice to someone listening to this or watching this about like collaborating, like what whether that could be like what really makes you guys the best collaborators possible or what what did you learn like what what would be that one piece of advice well I think um I think because we do have such a uniquely like close friendship and and we're collaborators I um I love to world build with him within music but also outside of music and just we're also very much collaborators like in life I would say like what our aspirations are for us when it comes to life so I I think um as a collaborator whether you are very close friends with with the person you're working with or not just bringing in genuine like care uh and understanding of what's going on maybe outside of the studio and curiosity about what's going on outside of the studio and in life because I do think of course we will talk and have conversations in a session to understand where the artist is, meet them where they're at and write about something topical for them, but actually going beyond just finding little bits to write about.

1:19:43And I think just like supporting or caring outside of the studio if they need that. I really love that because I've never, would have never thought to give someone that advice ever. That's really kind. I think it's just connecting. Yeah. You know, like. that's really kind that's beautiful do you have do you have something you think um about this i'll ask you a more specific one as right because we both have artist careers but for the most part we spend our days writing songs with and for other people so you being the artist the one who's going to sing it is there advice you could give we'll just talk about songwriters specifically yeah like of people coming to write with the artist of things that like you've been like someone did this and don't ever do that or just anything you can, you can think.

1:20:34Cause it's, I don't think that artists get asked that. We get asked that all the time. Yeah. But I don't know if you, if, if this pop star does. I would hesitate to give the advice only because I think it's like different things work for different people. You know, like there are people that I am a huge, huge, huge fan of that I've written with that we've never got a good song and we've tried, you know? And it's like, and I think it's an acknowledgement of like, you know that's one of the things that's so magical to me about songwriting is like you can be the same group of people in the same room two days in a row and one day you come up with absolutely nothing and the next day you write like a song that's going to change your life and you know it's like to me there's this element of something magical floating in the air that like you've got to just be able to exactly like you just got to be there to catch it kind of thing i know that i don't do well with like super strong um personalities in in the room maybe i'm that i I don't know.

1:21:27I don't know. But like, you know, just like I know things that don't really gel for me, but then for other people, it's like... Maybe for somebody else. Completely. So I think just like understanding and having faith that like you have your special secret sauce and like how to tune into that and like know when to like listen to it and then understanding that your collaborators have that too and understanding when to like step back and let them go. Like one of my favorite, favorite, favorite things is like in the beginning of the session when we both just have our voice members going and we're kind of like mumbling to ourselves separately or whatever.

1:21:59It's like this in every session. But then when one of us like, you know, he'll do something that perks my ear or vice versa. And then you know that in that moment, it's just about like, you just like keep going. You know what I mean? Don't fuck that up. Yeah, exactly. Make sure you're recording. And make sure you're recording. Knowing when to listen to yourself, knowing when to kind of like step out and just like be silent for a second. Listen to someone else. Listen to somebody else. Like, yeah, I would say that that's the... There's people that you are huge fans of. and you didn't write great songs together.

1:22:28I think knowing that just because one collaborator, even though you love what they do outside of you. And we're friends sometimes. Friends, like you're not the right collaborator for everyone. And I think that like that is hearing you, a pop star and artist say that, I think it's so important for people like me and Leland to hear of like, it doesn't mean that we're not awesome. It just means that that was the wrong pop star. And so I - And you are awesome. like on paper because you've made amazing stuff. You know what I mean? Even when you're starting though, it's like, you know, if someone you loved and you didn't write the best song, that doesn't mean that it's just, that's the wrong collaborator.

1:23:07And you may have your chapter down the road or, you know, like who knows? Yeah, I think that's both of what you said is actually, I just learned a lot of that. Like, no, just listen, keep going. It might just be the wrong fit and that's okay. And I've never heard someone like give such kind advice. And I think that's really beautiful of like, actually care about the person outside of the studio. And to balance out the kindness, I can say like, no, but like to, just to, to go into the studio with an artist that is working on a new album and to not push them to make something similar to what they just made.

1:23:44Yeah. That's, that's really eyeopening for me. And knowing that they've got aspirations and a vision and probably want to evolve, but of course, Exactly. Something else to prove. not to go in and say, well, let's make something like you just made. You know, I think. And just listening, like pushing with them, experimenting with them is, yeah, really exciting. That was amazing. Thanks so much. That was so much fun.