Wendy Goldstein | The Art of Building Superstars

9:14Justin Tranter:if you could, and then I'm going to get back to your story, but just so that people have the context as we talk more about your journey. So that's the original technical term of A &R. What does the daily life of an A &R look like right now? And obviously you're now, not Wendy, the chairperson. Wendy, you know, 10 years ago, the A &R. What does that look like?

9:37Wendy Goldstein:So I fortunately, in my opinion, came up at a time where there was no internet and there was no research, which was fantastic because you signed what you truly believed in.

9:51Justin Tranter:You loved.

9:51Wendy Goldstein:And, you know, research did play some type of role in those signings, meaning if a band was drawing 1 ,000 people, they were sticky. People cared. So that was how we gauged it back then. Today it's a whole different thing because research has become the driving force in A &R. Yeah. And everyone has the same data at the same time. So everyone seems to go after the same things because the research, quote-unquote, according to Avery Lipman, does not lie. So the life of an A &R person today is much different. You know, if you were interested in an artist, when I came up, you actually had to physically go.

10:43Justin Tranter:Yeah. And see it.

10:45Wendy Goldstein:And see it.

10:46Justin Tranter:Get on a plane, probably.

10:47Wendy Goldstein:Get on a plane, get in your car, stay out at a club till four o 'clock in the morning.

10:52Justin Tranter:Yep.

10:52Wendy Goldstein:That is all upside down now. That's completely changed.

10:57Justin Tranter:Hello, my little unfamous friends. so um the thing about the algorithm little miss algorithm is that she um doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it so if you follow this podcast what do the old school youtubers say like subscribe and follow um if you do that for me then you will help the unfamous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do me just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. How do you feel that research leads the way versus passion?

11:40Wendy Goldstein:So research plays an important role. Indie releases play an important role. They work as an incubator for an artist so that when we get them, we could just add water and go and it still could take five years. Right. So you're looking at I've never seen a time like the present where it's taking longer and longer and longer for artists to break, which is so counterintuitive to the technology. Because if you think about the Internet, it's everyone could get everything all the time wherever they are. Yeah. So why is it taking longer for artists to break when, before the internet, they actually had a tour and go to cities and get played on radio stations and get supporters and tastemakers to talk about them?

12:34Justin Tranter:Yeah. It is. It's an interesting.

12:36Wendy Goldstein:It's an interesting oxymoron.

12:38Justin Tranter:It really, really is. Okay, so back to your story.

12:40Wendy Goldstein:My story.

12:41Justin Tranter:Thank you for educating everybody watching. You're no better place to get the education than from Wendy. So back to your story. So you start assisting. What would you consider your first win in the music business? What was the first thing that went, oh, either you got a promotion or what would you consider your first win?

13:04Wendy Goldstein:Epic Records, I was still DJing. And Epic had a first, well, actually CBS Records at the time, had a first look deal with Virgin when Virgin was at its height of independent releases in the UK.

13:25Justin Tranter:Yeah. And I got my hands on a new record that was only out in the UK.

13:31Wendy Goldstein:It wasn't out in the US, but we played a lot of imports at Danceteria. It was, you know, the heartbeat of new wave hip hop. It all collided. And I walked in on Monday and I said to, and I brought the record in and I walked in Bruce's office and I was like, this record packed the damn floor last night. And it was Culture Club. Do you really want to hurt me? He's like, oh shit, it's on version. I'm like, yeah.

13:58Justin Tranter:Wow.

13:59Wendy Goldstein:And, you know, we picked it up and, you know, we did a lot of those kind of things. And shortly after that, Bruce went to RCA and he took me with him. And I was able to take that enormous leap from being an assistant to being an A &R scout.

14:19Justin Tranter:Right.

14:19Wendy Goldstein:At RCA for Bruce. And it was great because I had this little interior office. It was 1986, 87. You could smoke in the offices. It was disgusting. I would like chain smokes. I would have a cigarette lit on the phone. Light another one. It's kind of gross. But glamorous. So glamorous. And we really did great things at RCA.

14:44Justin Tranter:Wow.

14:45Wendy Goldstein:You know, house music was starting. So one of my first signings back then was a house music group called J.M. Silk. Okay. Who wound up being Steve Silk Hurley, one of the biggest house remixers ever next to Frankie Knuckles.

15:02Justin Tranter:Of course. What I love about you DJing and saying this record filled the dance floor, that is a lovely old school version of research. Totally. It's seeing how humans react in real time.

15:19Wendy Goldstein:You know, DJing is such a great background to do A &R because it teaches you very early on. It's not about what you like. It's about what works. Love that. That's the total antithesis to how A &R people believe they should be. Right? Now, there are certain things I've signed that I love, love, love, like, you know, would go home and listen to. Yep. But as you grow up in this industry and as you get to be at a higher level, higher level, your job is really providing the release schedule.

15:59Justin Tranter:Yeah. To keep a label hot.

16:02Wendy Goldstein:However, we need to keep putting music out.

16:05Justin Tranter:Yep.

16:06Wendy Goldstein:So I'd always have a little bet with myself. For every like passion project, it was okay to sign something that I knew would sell.

16:20Justin Tranter:Yep. That wasn't necessarily my particular taste. Yeah.

16:25Wendy Goldstein:And as I got older and got more in tune and refined, I learned how to make records that were hits for that artist. My opinion about it didn't matter. How do you separate in your brain?

16:45Justin Tranter:Because I do the same thing. I never liked down the middle pop music. Me neither. And that's mainly what I like. Yeah, exactly. So when people are like, oh, which artists do you want to get in with? I was like, all of them. All of them. I don't care. I don't take anyone. So how do you, because I know in my brain when I'm looking at a song technically, I go, I need the structure to be right if the artist allows me to make the structure right. I need this level of hookiness. I need this level of vulnerability. I need, because I'm looking at most of the things that I write for my quote unquote job, best job in the world.

17:18Justin Tranter:As I think, this isn't music I would listen to at home for the most part.

17:22Wendy Goldstein:No, so it becomes technical.

17:23Justin Tranter:Yeah, so how do you separate when you're listening to records that you are deeply passionate about versus records that you know the world's going to be passionate about? Do you listen to them differently?

17:33Wendy Goldstein:No, I actually listen to them the same because I have this built-in structure and understanding of what I need in a hit song. Because don't forget, until I got to Republic, I wasn't the queen of top 40. I made hip-hop records, a lot of them.

17:55Justin Tranter:Talk about it. I would love to. I know, but let the people know because I think it's fabulous.

17:59Wendy Goldstein:You know, somewhere in my career in 1993, I landed at Geffen Records, which was still run by Eddie Rosenblatt and David Geffen, still owned 51 % of it. But the first week on the job, someone turned me on to a group that was playing in the street corner of Philadelphia. They were high school kids, and they were drawing 1 ,000 people. And I'm like, wow, I have to go see this. I go, and I meet the manager for a coffee, and what I saw was the most incredible level of musicianship ever. And I made that decision my first week on the job to sign The Roots.

18:37Justin Tranter:So fucking cool.

18:40Wendy Goldstein:And proceeded to A &R for albums with them. It took a minute, but they got there.

18:48Justin Tranter:Yeah.

18:49Wendy Goldstein:So, again, you know, it was always the structure of the song.

18:56Justin Tranter:Yeah.

18:56Wendy Goldstein:And we had put out two albums, and they were touring, and they were press darlings, and they kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger, but we didn't have that elusive hit until the third album. And I remember taking the train to Philly, sitting with them in Larry Gold's studio going, we have to have a hit on this record. And what is a hit in 1999 for a rap group that is selling half a million records, sold out tours, highest level of musicianship. What does that look like?

19:35Justin Tranter:Yeah.

19:36Wendy Goldstein:Right. And the truth is it was a song called You Got Me. And it had all of my personal formula in it.

19:48Justin Tranter:Right.

19:49Wendy Goldstein:coming from a DJ background, the first five seconds of a record has to grab you. If it's not instant, it doesn't matter. That record starts out with Quest Love and this great kind of drum kick snare thing. And you're like sucked in, right? And that's what we proceeded to do.

20:11Justin Tranter:Yeah. And it was hard. For the, I use geeks as a term of endearment, for the geeks listening to this, break it down for me. So first five seconds has to grab you.

20:19Wendy Goldstein:First five seconds. What else do you need? I need a musical hook.

20:24Justin Tranter:That's not the vocal. No. Instrumental hook.

20:27Wendy Goldstein:In addition to a very catchy, catchy chorus. Yep. And what I mean by a musical hook, because I've studied this so much, Funk and soul records are the best example of a perfectly written, executed record because they start on a riff that becomes a hook of the song. The top line melody and the cadence is in the same key with the same pattern. And then if you add a catchy chorus, it's hook, hook, hook, hook, hook. And you think you're just listening to Bill Withers, right? But you realize that when you break it down, there's not a down second in that record.

21:25Justin Tranter:Yeah.

21:26Wendy Goldstein:It never loses your attention.

21:27Justin Tranter:Yeah. And what you're so right about soul and funk records is that the instrumental parts, for the most part, blanket statement, the players on those records are so fucking good.

21:38Wendy Goldstein:Unbelievable.

21:39Justin Tranter:That they're not just playing the chord.

21:41Wendy Goldstein:No, it's Sly and the Family Stone. Think about that.

21:46Justin Tranter:Half of the James Brown records, sometimes the instrumental parts, whether it's the bass line or the horn line or whatever, the guitar riff, is sometimes hookier than the vocal.

21:55Wendy Goldstein:The Ohio players. I mean, you could go on and on. Casey and the Sunshine Bay. I mean, a lot of that kind of morphed into disco. But those records have a tried and true formula.

22:11Justin Tranter:So when you just so beautifully broke down what you're looking for in a song, in a record, what is it about an artist that makes you go, oh, fuck, we've got to talk about this in a good way? Artists have to be superpowers.

22:28Wendy Goldstein:Honestly, they really do. And they come in different shapes and sizes. I'll talk about my Joe Jonas story. Yeah. Because when I signed Joe Jonas, it was at a time where the band had broken up. Nick was doing very well with his solo career. I went and met Joe at his house, and we hung out for three hours. I left the meeting thinking he's so charismatic. He's such a star. And it's the first and last time ever that I signed an artist because I started following him on Instagram. And his Instagram was so funny and clever. And I'm like, if we can put this into a record, this could be massive. And he's already halfway there.

23:21Wendy Goldstein:He's a Jonas brother. People love him.

23:23Justin Tranter:Love him, yeah. And thus, that's how we met. That's how we met, yeah.

23:28Wendy Goldstein:I signed him off of his Instagram.

23:34Wendy Goldstein:Yeah. So, you know, crazier things have happened.

23:38Justin Tranter:Yeah. And then we got to make that first DNCE album together. Cake by the ocean changed all of our lives. Yeah, it really did. It really, and I'll never forget playing you that song. and I had just very recently stopped my band.

23:59Wendy Goldstein:I know.

24:00Justin Tranter:And so I, at the time, still, when I would play an A &R or a manager, an artist, every song, I would just perform it. I would just do a full number in the middle of the studio. And you know, Conway is built, amazing studio, one of the best in the world. Yes. But it's built old school. So there's a board in there that's so fucking big. So there's really not that much room. It takes up all the room. So there's not much room. So you and I are like in a space no bigger than this couch. And I'm like doing a full dance number of cake by the ocean for you. And you're just looking at me with this biggest smile.

24:35Justin Tranter:And I'm like, I literally was thinking, I don't think I've ever told you this in my head. I'm like, she either thinks I'm insane or she loves me or both. And I, and I was like,

24:47Wendy Goldstein:that song going back to my perfect structure of the song and a funk record

24:53Justin Tranter:has all of those elements that you're already in the first five seconds. Yep.

25:00Wendy Goldstein:The guitar line. Yep. A hook. Yeah. And it gets better and better and better from that. And it's the most ridiculous lyric on the planet, but it all worked. Joe, being Joe. Being funny. And being funny was really able to sell that. Yeah. So my dream of signing an artist off of Instagram actually worked.

25:26Justin Tranter:It's one of the most synced songs in history.

25:29Wendy Goldstein:In history that we have, especially at Republic.

25:31Justin Tranter:Yeah.

25:32Wendy Goldstein:Because songs about nothing that make you happy are everything.

25:37Justin Tranter:They can fit into every commercial, any movie.

25:41Wendy Goldstein:Movie trailer, movie trailer, any like, you know, driving to Vegas, you know, bachelor scene, right? It just fits anywhere. Yeah.

25:50Justin Tranter:How has, whether it's your instinct, whether it's your gut, whether it's your knowledge and deep research of, and I don't mean research in the internet sense, but research in music. Yes. How has that evolved over the years? How has the A &R from 1993 changed from to now?

26:12Wendy Goldstein:You know, my process has always been somewhat similar in a way. And I think, again, given that I have a DJ background, I know every record ever made that you can dance to. And because of that, I tend to use a theory, what's old is new again.

26:38Justin Tranter:Yeah.

26:38Wendy Goldstein:So I'm constantly digging in the crates to come up with new. For Ariana, the way it was big puns, still not a player.

26:49Justin Tranter:Yeah.

26:50Wendy Goldstein:Right? I mean, we have the next Kylie Cantrell single is Mary J. Blige, Real Love. Yeah. And I twist them enough where it's the new artist's signature sound. And the records are old enough where their audience won't even know where it comes from.

27:11Justin Tranter:Right.

27:11Wendy Goldstein:But there is something about...

27:13Justin Tranter:Knowing your references. Knowing your references, having something that people lean into subconsciously. Yep. Feels familiar. Feels familiar. But feels fresh.

27:26Wendy Goldstein:But you can't use it in a corny way. Yeah. You have to use it in a cool way.

27:30Justin Tranter:Yeah. No, I think that there's such a, you know, there's no fashion designer on this planet that creates a collection without deeply researching a new set of references. A thousand percent. And, you know, I think that in the modern world of music, you know, it's like I'll never, you know, the first day I met Julia Michaels, her knowing like deep Fiona Apple album cuts. I'm like, you're 19. You shouldn't know this. And you know who had the exact same similar deep references as in the heat of hell COVID. I did a Zoom with Olivia Rodrigo. We ended up never writing because of COVID. but she was also talking about deep singer-songwriter album cuts from the 90s.

28:13Justin Tranter:And you can tell the young writers, artists, whatever you want to call them, the young ones who have just, because they're so passionate, have done their fucking research.

28:21Wendy Goldstein:You have to do your research.

28:24Justin Tranter:There's just a different level of artistry.

28:27Wendy Goldstein:And I understand the difference. You know, when I came up, let's say rock and roll, soul, pop music, started with the Beatles in 1962. Yeah. So I only had to go back 20 years to do a deep dive into music. If you are 20 years old now, you have to go back 70. I mean, that's a task. So it's harder for them to really gain the knowledge of all of those records. And every time I hear a record, EDM, what was EDM? And it was Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Art of Noise, you know, Black Box. It was all of those instrumental dance records. That's what it was. That was the foundation. Yeah. There's not a lot like, you know, the best form of praise is an artist paying homage to someone else.

29:32Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah.

29:33Wendy Goldstein:When I played Max Martin The Weeknd, you know what he, his takeaway? Oh my God, it's Michael Jackson.

29:39Justin Tranter:Right.

29:40Wendy Goldstein:That wasn't the intention, but that was where his brain was.

29:43Justin Tranter:Where Max could grasp it.

29:44Wendy Goldstein:Yeah, where he could grasp it.

29:46Justin Tranter:Yeah.

29:46Wendy Goldstein:And, you know, there is something about that, the art of A &R. If you don't have that knowledge, you're kind of pissing in the wind. Right. Like just, all right, well, is this good? Is it not good? Like, you know, how do you know?

30:03Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. You have to do the research to know.

30:06Wendy Goldstein:You have to do the research and you have to understand what works and what won't work. When I think what is such a great thing to learn from you,

30:17Justin Tranter:because, you know, this podcast is about collaboration and the job of an A &R is so fucking collaborative. You're collaborating with an artist. You're collaborating with a producer, a writer, a marketing team. It is deep collaboration. But I think a lot of people come to this podcast to learn. And I've learned so much from you. What I've learned from you today is that so far, because we still have more to talk about, you did all the research because you loved music so much and you were DJing. Like doing research is really hard if you don't love it. It's very hard.

30:48Wendy Goldstein:You have to have a purpose to do it. Yeah.

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31:50Wendy Goldstein:I was DJing. I always wanted to play a funk and soul classic record. I wanted to show these people that I was cool, that I knew disco and funk and soul and Otis Redding and as well as all the current stuff, which was, you know, Blondie and Talking Heads and Grandmaster Flash at the time. And so I wanted to play everything.

32:16Justin Tranter:Yeah. All at once. Show that you knew all of it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Do you, this is a much more technical current question, but I think it's a really good one that Morgan wrote, which is, I'm just going to read it because it's really good. What's the thing artists think get them signed that actually doesn't?

32:37Wendy Goldstein:Jumping on your desk and performing in your face. I hate that. Right, because especially if the record isn't amazing

32:51Justin Tranter:and maybe they're not even the best performer and that's not why you were interested in them, you're interested in them because they were like...

32:56Wendy Goldstein:Yeah. And it's like, I never want... I want to sign artists that I'm pursuing more than them pursuing me. Yeah. It's almost like dating. Yeah. Right? Play hard to get. Yeah, play hard to get. Exactly. Yeah. Let me show you why Republic's the right place. I'm the right A &R. Yeah. What my added value. Yeah. As an A &R person. Because really at the end of the day, your discography walks in the room with you.

33:30Justin Tranter:Mm.

33:32Wendy Goldstein:As an A &R person. As an A &R person. Yep. And therefore, if you're walking in with a very long discography, you can be cool about it. I don't need you singing in my face. She's a pet peeve.

33:49Justin Tranter:No, that's a great answer.

33:51Wendy Goldstein:Yeah, thank you. It's a really good answer.

33:54Justin Tranter:You mentioned before how it's taking artists longer and longer to break, which we've seen, whether it's Chapel, whether it's Sabrina, Zara, the list goes on and on. And I'm just thinking of the pop girls because that's what I pay attention to. But it's in every genre, right? What, as an A &R, as a chairwoman, whatever position you're in, when an artist is taking a long time to break, how do you decide when it's time to go, maybe we're not the right label for you or when it's time to go, hey, we need to pivot your sound or when it's time to just like stay the course, whatever the answer is. How do you navigate that with these people who are looking to you to make their dreams come true?

34:44Wendy Goldstein:So I was taught very early in my A &R career by some of the most amazing record executives.

34:51Justin Tranter:Yeah. This is one of your pearls of wisdom I have not heard. I am listening.

34:56Wendy Goldstein:So if you're sitting on an artist, You got to wait and slide in exactly when something is faltering to really take that slot. So, A, you always need records on reserve that are clever, that an event happens. You know, I come from a hip-hop background. What was so great about hip-hop is that they would literally make a record and drop it the next day. Whether it was a diss record or whether someone passed, it was very in the moment. Pop music also has to be in the moment. Thank you, next. Ariana Grande, perfect example. She's very clever. She called and said, I want to drop it Friday. I'm like, but it's not even mixed yet.

35:49Wendy Goldstein:And by the way, this was Thursday.

35:51Justin Tranter:So giving you eight days or giving you one day?

35:54Wendy Goldstein:Half a day. And I remember calling Serbin. One of the best mixers of all time. Best mixer of all time. I love him. And he would always know when I'd call him and I would go, hello? And he goes, what's wrong? I'm in the car with my parents. I just picked them up from the airport. They're in from Canada. I'm dropping them in my house. What do you need? And I remember saying, I have this Ariana song. We want to release it tomorrow, but I have to deliver it. Finished, mastered by 5 p.m. New York time tonight. And it's already 9 a.m. L.A. time, so it's noon. And he goes, got it. I go, it doesn't even have to sound good.

36:44Wendy Goldstein:You just have to mix it for a minute. And he goes, just for a minute. And get it to Randy and Sterling. Just a minute. and he goes, all right, let me drop my parents off in my house. Let me have lunch. I'll go right to the studio. And we made the deadline.

37:01Justin Tranter:Wow.

37:02Wendy Goldstein:And that was something that was, she dropped that record like a rapper.

37:06Justin Tranter:Wow.

37:07Wendy Goldstein:And it exploded. Wow. That... And she got that slot at that moment in time.

37:15Justin Tranter:Yeah.

37:16Wendy Goldstein:So everything leading up to that was preparedness. Yes.

37:21Justin Tranter:I mean, that's actually a really, really good point, right? She was massive before that, but that was the moment she became - A superstar. The generational superstar. That is a very good point.

37:30Wendy Goldstein:And she wrote that record in a very tough time in her life.

37:34Justin Tranter:Right.

37:35Wendy Goldstein:And the thing I love about her more than anything, even till this day, she puts it all out there.

37:41Justin Tranter:Yeah. Oh, it's - It's all out there. I mean, I was lucky enough to do one song on that album because you were nice enough to send me to New York to do it. and I'll never forget. She played me Thank You Next and I was blown away, but she also played me Imagine. And I was just like, what the fuck is, this girl's always been amazing, but something is happening on this one. And then I was with Priscilla wrote, who is now Money Long. Money Long wrote Imagine. I got to write Fake Smile with Money Long and Ari for that project. And it's also to see her instincts, right? Like she came in and we had like started a bit of Fake Smile and she heard like, I don't know, eight bars and was like, no, this is on the album right now.

38:29Justin Tranter:Let's finish it right now. We finished it in an hour and a half. She cut it, edited her own vocals. You know, she's like the engineers at the computer while she's in the booth. You know, very politely asked him to move so she can edit it herself.

38:42Wendy Goldstein:She knows what everything she's recorded.

38:44Justin Tranter:Yeah.

38:44Wendy Goldstein:And it's quicker when she does it.

38:46Justin Tranter:Yeah.

38:46Wendy Goldstein:But she is one of, the thing I love about her more than, I mean, there's so much I love about her. Of course. But since the age of 16, when we signed her.

38:56Justin Tranter:Crazy. She has been decisive. Yeah. She doesn't mull things over.

39:03Wendy Goldstein:She doesn't think about things. She really sticks to her own first instinct. You can't get in her head and mess up her flow. Yep. It's the best. When an artist is like that and they're not constantly second guessing or changing their minds, you can do amazing things.

39:24Justin Tranter:Would you say if we, because obviously talent and having that gift and that X factor is, of course, goes without saying. Any superstar is going to need that. Would you say that the second most important thing is that level of decisiveness?

39:40Wendy Goldstein:I think so. Knowing who you are and creating your own brand.

39:44Justin Tranter:Yep.

39:45Wendy Goldstein:Ari created her own brand. All these things that you wouldn't think would be cool at Coachella like a ponytail. I go out and there's 100 ,000 people in ponytails. God bless. God bless, yeah. She stuck to who she was.

40:03Justin Tranter:What would you think is the most common thing you've seen artists do that hurts their career?

40:14Wendy Goldstein:Too much. Sonically, too many musical styles. The one thing with Ari is that when you hear an Ariana record, you know it's Ariana.

40:24Justin Tranter:Yep.

40:26Wendy Goldstein:It's R &B tinge. That's how she sings. Yep. It has a little hip-hop in it. It might have a little EDM in it, but it's funny. It's quirky. The vocals are still, like, you know it's her. You know an Ari record. To get any artist that you're A &Ring, the goal had always been, and I learned this very early on, when the Michael Jacksons of the world were signed and active. My boss said to me, the most important thing is that they are on a one first name basis with the fans. If you could achieve that, and when you think about that, it's Madonna, it's Gaga, it's Beyonce, it's Rihanna, it's Ariana, right?

41:18Justin Tranter:Even just Ari, they shortened even the name.

41:20Wendy Goldstein:But that is an achievement that you can only get by doubling down on your craft and making it better and better. If you go and go wherever the trend is, you're not an album selling artist. You're going to be single to single. And you see the difference.

41:40Justin Tranter:That's so, so perfectly said. When it comes to writers and producers, what to just really boil it down, what, when you're collaborating with a writer and or producer, because sometimes they do both. What is the thing that you would say you 100 % need every writer and or producer to a quality they have to have for you to have a long-term relationship with them?

42:08Wendy Goldstein:They have to be cool. I hate to say it. No. And we have to be able to hang because I know now in my career, I've made so many records that I know how to give notes and I know how to inspire. I'll send a producer like, here, listen to this record from 1984.

42:34Justin Tranter:I'll give very specific notes that are helpful, not notes to just give notes.

42:41Wendy Goldstein:And I will walk in with a very specific sonic palette for an artist. Yeah. Right? If you picture a mood board, something old, something new. So therefore, they're in it at the ground level.

42:58Justin Tranter:Yeah.

42:58Wendy Goldstein:And they're in it with me and the artist. Yeah. And that is really important to build a foundation. I have never been a big fan of using too many producers on an album. to be two to three max, preferably two. So it's a cohesive sound. And it's deep. You know, deep cuts, fan favorites, those need to speak and say something. They're not album fillers.

43:29Justin Tranter:Yep.

43:29Wendy Goldstein:Right.

43:30Justin Tranter:What is so smart about that point of view is that I know as a writer, when I know that the artist, that the A &R has the artist writing with the entire town for the album. When I go in, if I get three days with them, I am only trying to write the first single. Yeah. I'm not given the luxury to go and get weird with them for a day because I don't view album cuts as filler. I want to take them seriously. But if I only have three days with you and I'm competing with the entire town. No, of course. So then on those albums, you can hear it. It just sounds like every song was trying to be the first single and it's not a proper body of work that anybody cares about.

44:07Wendy Goldstein:And they don't know how to fix the sonic. to make them align with each other.

44:11Justin Tranter:Yep.

44:12Wendy Goldstein:Right? So one of my, you know, things that I'm always pretty determined and make sure happens, I like to have an executive producer on the album

44:25Justin Tranter:who is a real producer that I can work with

44:29Wendy Goldstein:where outside songs might come in, but they make it sound like the artist. They bring it into the world. Like the body of work that we're trying to put out to the world. Yep. consistency is key in all of this. And that is why, you know, when I was coming up, you listen to albums and you listen to them in the sequence that the artist intended you to listen to. I was very young when Songs in the Key of Life came out. And I had a record player in my room and I loved that album so much that it took me six weeks to even turn it over to side B. I couldn't, I just always want to listen to the songs I want to listen to.

45:14Wendy Goldstein:And then I discovered, oh my God, side B is even possibly even better. So I come from loving and adoring albums, reading the credits, knowing people that are involved, like a real fan, a real, you know, I was an A &R person before I even knew what it was. Right. I knew what label it was on, what year it came out, who produced it, who managed the art. Like I knew the B-sides. Like that was just me. I was curious.

45:47Justin Tranter:Yep. And I think that's what is you're so great for so many reasons. But one of the most important reasons is that artists, writers, and producers, 9.5 times out of 10, we are doing this because we love it so deeply. and we can tell when an executive is giving us notes based on something that doesn't come from the love of music.

46:11Wendy Goldstein:Of course, because it's not coming from the true essence of the soul.

46:14Justin Tranter:And it just feels fucking weird. And it's like every time you've given me a note, every time I'm like, oh yeah, that's probably going to work because it's coming from a deep love and a deep research. It's not just the sake of giving a note.

46:28Wendy Goldstein:Exactly. And for me, it's always instrumentation. I'm very big on BPMs.

46:36Justin Tranter:You're very big on structure. Yes. Which I love because I'm a big structure geek and we always.

46:43Wendy Goldstein:But I'm also good at a loose structure if that's what's required. Intentional. Intentional for that song. Yep. Right. If you're in making an album, they all shouldn't be perfect.

46:56Justin Tranter:Right. It gets boring. No. Yeah. What's the thing a writer, a producer, so the most, you said the most important thing is to be able to hang and collaborate in a fun, loving way. What is the thing that a writer, a producer is going to do that immediately you're like, I'm never calling them again?

47:12Wendy Goldstein:There's many things. Yeah. There is an over-aggressive manager. Big turnoff. Because again, yes, there's money involved, but you should be doing this because you want to be aligned with something. Yeah. That even if it doesn't happen this year, next year, the year after, you're in there. Yep. That's a big turnoff. Doing too much, big turnoff.

47:45Justin Tranter:Like the creatively doing too much or?

47:48Wendy Goldstein:Too many sessions with other people, not allowing enough time.

47:53Justin Tranter:Yep.

47:53Wendy Goldstein:which is a signal to me that you're not that into it. Because if you're really into something and you are a producer and you love music, you will drop everything to literally stand next to this artist. And if you're not going to do that, I don't really, I'll figure out the hit. Yeah. I want to surround my artists with people who love them as much as I love them, as much as the label loves them. That is beyond important to me because it's like, yeah, you could go after and get the biggest person, but if they're not gonna devote their time, you're gonna get like a B record.

48:38Justin Tranter:Yeah.

48:39Wendy Goldstein:You're not gonna get the A shit.

48:41Justin Tranter:Well, especially because you are an A &R who wants a small team on the album. Yes. So if someone isn't giving it a proper amount of time, then you need somebody else.

48:50Wendy Goldstein:It's not fair to the other people either. How do you balance giving an artist,

49:00Justin Tranter:and they're collaborators, writers, producers, giving them time to breathe versus delivering on like logistical needs?

49:09Wendy Goldstein:Every case is different and you have to be able to read the artist and be close enough to the artist to really see what's coming ahead of it and adjust accordingly, right? And also be transparent. If the label has a record in for a certain month and you know six months earlier, you're not going to make that date, tell them. Don't lie.

49:40Justin Tranter:Meaning the artist shouldn't lie.

49:41Wendy Goldstein:Well, no, tell or tell the people running the label.

49:44Justin Tranter:Right.

49:45Wendy Goldstein:Right? Because there's business plans and forecasts and things that they're going to have to find those units somewhere to replace it.

49:54Justin Tranter:Right.

49:54Wendy Goldstein:You never force the art to make a deadline.

49:57Justin Tranter:Right.

49:58Wendy Goldstein:That's rule number one.

50:00Justin Tranter:Love that. And so then when, if, so if the art isn't making the deadline, you're not going to force it. Then on your end, how do you, how do you handle that? Especially now as chairperson.

50:12Wendy Goldstein:You just have to be honest.

50:13Justin Tranter:Yeah.

50:14Wendy Goldstein:You're not ready.

50:15Justin Tranter:Right.

50:15Wendy Goldstein:This isn't ready and it has to be great.

50:17Justin Tranter:Yeah.

50:18Wendy Goldstein:If we're going to put marketing muscle, money, all of our efforts behind something, when it leaves the A &R department, it should be the best that it could possibly be. Yeah. And if something's having an engine problem, you're replacing that with a plane with another plane. Yeah. But you have to at all costs protect the artist. That's the franchise. And one bad release can derail their career in this market.

50:52Justin Tranter:Yeah.

50:52Wendy Goldstein:So you have to be smart about those things.

50:55Justin Tranter:Yeah. You know, I, as you know, was in a band for years. And when I started writing songs with and for other people, I found so much fulfillment in helping other people achieve their dreams. And that is literally 100 % your job.

51:15Wendy Goldstein:And the one thing that I know is what we've done so seamlessly at Republic is build not only artists, but build franchises. Right? So if you're building a franchise, catalog matters. catalog on an artist that's still current when that artist puts out in new music but all boats rise with the tide that's the foundation of a label's growth yeah a label's financing for that year. So in doing that, certain specific things need to happen. An established artist who's in a core genre, let's say it's R &B or hip hop, if they don't have a record that crosses out of that every 36 months, they're not going to get a new audience.

52:19Wendy Goldstein:And what does a new audience bring? People are curious. Kids are curious. A new audience brings them back to listen to the entire catalog. Discovery is the most important element in that. So artists that don't stay on that path, they become a dying franchise.

52:43Justin Tranter:Right.

52:44Wendy Goldstein:So yeah, the catalog still might stream. I might be a big celebrity, but by not having a driver, it shortens the lifespan of what it could possibly be. And that's why current music is so important. It's to introduce a new audience to everything this artist has done.

53:09Justin Tranter:Yeah. When you've had to have those hard conversations with artists or writers or even employees, when someone has sort of lost sight of the main goal, how do you approach those hard conversations? Because this is something I'm learning and something you told me when I started publishing company and label. And I'm learning that the publishing side, I really understand because I'm a songwriter. And the label side, I'm still fucking learning. It's hard. It's hard label. It's a totally different skill set. And you said to me, when I started all of this, of like, you're such a leader. This is going to be amazing.

53:46Justin Tranter:But just can I give you one piece of advice? And I said, please. And you said, just know when you start business, when you're just a songwriter, you can be everyone's best friend. Yep. The second you start businesses, you have to have hard conversations and people might not like you. And you're very well liked right now. And at starting a business, you are going to have some enemies be prepared. And you were very right. So when you go into those hard conversations and someone's going to view you as the bad guy for the day, how do you?

54:14Wendy Goldstein:I still try to do it as nice as I can.

54:16Justin Tranter:No, you do do it very nicely.

54:18Wendy Goldstein:It's just matter of fact. It's like, you know, I'm lucky enough now to be in a position where when I walk in a room, my discography walks in with me. And sometimes you do have to make it about yourself.

54:32Justin Tranter:Yeah, you do. So it's, it's, you're, I mean, I'm, I'm learning that, you know, on the label side, especially. you know, like we, we are both together working with the amazing B Miller right now. And, and because that label part, I'm still learning is hard for me. I just, me and B made like a really cool new school arrangement that we're just like a kind of like a creative team. We've locked arms and I am here to call people. I'm here to write her songs. I'm here to do everything, but I am never going to like have some weird comp. We're, we're making, we locked arms as creative partners. And I learned that for me is the way that I can handle it.

55:10Well, as an A &R person, the truth is the thing you have to protect most is your creativity and your reputation as a creative person.

55:23Wendy Goldstein:So certain conversations might not be appropriate for you to have and still continue to A &R an artist on the highest level. so at Republic we work as a team it's not that I'm scared of having it it's just I need the artist to look at me as the chief creative officer I need to stay creative exactly that and that's the

55:51Justin Tranter:big and I I love hearing you say that because it makes me feel less crazy because I learned early on when I started my label I was I was asked to have a really hard conversation with an artist And I was like, okay, yeah, I'm so good with people. I'll do it. Well, me and that artist never wrote another good song together ever again because all of a sudden I was like the big bad executive and we're supposed to be writing together. You can't. As an A &R, you're a creative partner.

56:19Wendy Goldstein:You have to understand your value and protect your value.

56:24Justin Tranter:Yeah, I learned it the hard way.

56:25Wendy Goldstein:As an A &R person, as a creative, as a songwriter, as a producer. it's very difficult to be business person and creative at the same time. And if you notice and you look at labels throughout the ages, for every creative who ran a company, there was a suit. And it was the suit that had the tough conversations. Because the creative needs to be creative. And that's where growing up in the business at the height of the business and when it was thriving and not indies and not internet and not streaming and all that other stuff, you saw that. That was so transparent. And unfortunately, younger A &Rs, they don't get to see how it was done to even imbibe that.

57:24Justin Tranter:Yeah. What's the thing you miss the most about the industry before social media came and flipped everything on its head?

57:32Wendy Goldstein:Well, what social media did was make the consumer expect that the messaging of a new release, a new video, a new tour come directly from the artist. Yeah. So if you think back to the 70s, David Bowie was a mystery. Would he have been a hit today?

57:53Justin Tranter:Right.

57:53Wendy Goldstein:If he had to do that.

57:55Justin Tranter:If he had to talk to his phone every day.

57:56Wendy Goldstein:Yeah. So I think that the times has so much to do with the type of artists that break. Prints who became a symbol. Like I walked around all of my high school thinking I was David Bowie. Right? Dressing like David Bowie. Yep. Um, that's how important he was in my life.

58:25Justin Tranter:Yeah.

58:26Wendy Goldstein:So I do think that, but he didn't do a lot of interviews. Right. You really didn't even know what his voice sounded like.

58:33Justin Tranter:Yeah.

58:34Wendy Goldstein:And I liked it better that way.

58:35Justin Tranter:Yeah. What's a positive from the new world of the music business? I think a positive is the fact that you can reach so many people so quickly. Yeah.

58:47Wendy Goldstein:You can get your message out. and if it's really resonating, you will see it explode.

58:55Justin Tranter:Yeah.

58:56Wendy Goldstein:And I think that, you know, that's the good and the bad news of gatekeepers.

59:00Justin Tranter:Mm-hmm. Yeah. To wrap up every episode, we play a little game.

59:06Wendy Goldstein:Okay.

59:07Justin Tranter:It's called gag or drag. Okay, gag is if you love it.

59:10Wendy Goldstein:Mm-hmm.

59:11Justin Tranter:Gag, I love this. Drag is if you hate it. Okay. Okay. Okay. People talking through the opening song at a concert. Drag. Drag. Shut up. Shut the fuck up.

59:25Wendy Goldstein:Why are you here?

59:29Justin Tranter:Gag or drag people leaving a concert before the encore.

59:34Wendy Goldstein:Gag. Only because, you know, I've done that. You want to get in your car. You don't want to get stuck in the traffic. I'm an adult. I need to wake up the next day. I'll give him a break.

59:46Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. Fair. I love that. I love that. That's a very, very real, honest answer. Gag or drag people comparing New York to LA.

59:55Wendy Goldstein:Oh, drag. Coming from New York, born and raised, there was like, why does a city have to be better than the other?

1:00:04Justin Tranter:Yeah. Thank you. It's when I moved here, the amount of friends, because it was before the mass exodus from New York to LA, the amount of friends of mine who were like, oh, so you're a sellout. Yeah. And I was like, actually, yeah, I'm trying to pay my rent through music now. I'm going to write songs for other people. Yeah, I'm actually 100 % a fucking sellout.

1:00:27Wendy Goldstein:I moved out here in 2001 for a job to be the head of A &R Capital. And I couldn't have been happier. I was like, yeah, why not? I don't have kids. My husband's English. He already made one big move. He's like, oh, who cares if everyone's shallow and superficial? I could get a convertible.

1:00:48Justin Tranter:Gag or drag the phrase work-life balance? Ugh. Yes.

1:00:54Wendy Goldstein:Drag. Drag, me too. I hate it. First of all, who's to say who came up with the formula? Right. And it's not one size fits all.

1:01:03Justin Tranter:Right. I eat this. I breathe this. This got me through illness. Yeah. Well, actually, let's fucking stop this game for a second. Mm-hmm. So I had maybe had like two-ish hits. One of them was because of you, Cake by the Ocean. and you invited me where you were getting an award. That's right. From a hospital, right? Yeah, St. John's. St. John's. In Santa Monica. Because you had the same year that you survived cancer, you had the biggest year of your career. I did. And I don't want to get emotional, but I love you so much. And it was, I was so new to success. and you invited me to sit at your table while you got this award.

1:01:54Justin Tranter:And I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? This woman just like literally saved her life while also blowing up The Weeknd and Ariana the same fucking year. And DNC. And DNC, right, while I was there. They performed. Yeah, yeah. How, I don't even know what question to ask you about it. How did working so fucking hard that year help you get through that battle?

1:02:24Wendy Goldstein:It's a very interesting question. Cancer is a funny disease. A lot of it has to do with your mental state and also the doctor you choose or can get to go to. And when I got diagnosed, I have a lot of great friends in the city of Los Angeles. So I was able to get in with Dr. Lawrence Pirro, who is one of the best, most innovative, brilliant oncologists in LA. And when he met with me, the first thing he said is, you're going to work right through this. And you're going to have your most successful year ever. and I looked at him like he was effing crazy. I'm like, you don't even know me. And Peter's sitting next to me, he's like, uh-huh, uh-huh.

1:03:16Wendy Goldstein:He's like all bought in. But the truth is he was right because when I was going through treatment was when Ari was in with Sovin, Ilya, Max, and a bunch of the Swedes on her second album. And I told very few people that I was going through treatment. But obviously Ari had a lot of cancer in her family, and so I told her and her mom and Savin and Max and Ilya, and I would just go to the studio every day for a couple hours and just lay on the sofa and just be there, be in that environment. Helped me so much. I think it would have been so much worse laying in bed, feeling sick than laying on the sofa at Conway feeling sick.

1:04:11Wendy Goldstein:But it was true because I put everything mattered so deeply. You know, cancer is an amazing thing to go through. It's hard, but you grow from it so much. It makes you a better person. For the first time ever, I put myself first. I cut out things in my life that didn't serve me. And I leaned into things that gave me joy. Making records gave me joy. And I only focused on that. And the records that were made in 2014 were extraordinary.

1:04:58Justin Tranter:Yeah.

1:04:58Wendy Goldstein:And I will forever be grateful to that experience because it let me see and hear and experience things at a totally deeper level.

1:05:14Justin Tranter:Yeah. Yeah. Last question. If you could give one piece of advice to someone about the, the how to collaborate well with an A &R specifically. Artists, writer, producer, you've given a lot of amazing advice, but if there was one last thing that anyone watching this is like, how do I communicate better or work better with an A &R? What would that piece of advice be?

1:05:44Wendy Goldstein:I think the first thing is communication. Having a relationship that goes beyond just making that record. You know, it's a business built on relationships. When I worked at Geffen Records, Eddie Rosenblatt and David Geffen would say to me, your only value is who you can get on this. And they'd pull out his cell phone.

1:06:09Justin Tranter:A new fancy fan-dangled device.

1:06:11Wendy Goldstein:Well, it was huge back then in 1995, but whatever. But the truth is my greatest gift is that I know everyone. And for the most part, I've had really pleasant and good experiences with them. And I feel that as an A &R, that's your job. Who you can get on the phone, who you can get to, who will do you a favor, who will drop their parents off and go into the studio to mix a record for you when they were taking the day off. That is your value. So when you work for a label, you have to add value. Yeah. And that is, you cannot replace that. Yeah. You just can't. A call from me means something to a certain person.

1:07:05Justin Tranter:Yeah.

1:07:05Wendy Goldstein:And I feel that.

1:07:07Justin Tranter:Oh, I always know the difference when a session request comes through someone at an office versus when you call me on the phone.

1:07:15Wendy Goldstein:And I'll just pick up the phone and be like, hey. Whatever it is, just say yes.

1:07:18Justin Tranter:If you called me, the answer is yes, so just book it.

1:07:21Wendy Goldstein:So I think that that is what I was taught to aspire to because it's not about me. I serve a function.

1:07:30Justin Tranter:Yeah.

1:07:31Wendy Goldstein:And I do it at the top of my game.

1:07:33Justin Tranter:Yeah.

1:07:34Wendy Goldstein:But I have no illusions. I am not the star, which I love. Yeah. Because I can go to Irwan and Beverly Hills and be anonymous. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But it is that. It's being kind to people.

1:07:54Justin Tranter:Yeah.

1:07:55Wendy Goldstein:Because it's a very small industry.

1:07:58Justin Tranter:Yeah.

1:07:59Wendy Goldstein:And being transparent. If a song's not going to make it, tell someone. Like, you have to be honest. The thing that gets a lot of younger A &Rs and executives in trouble or get them a bad reputation is by not being transparent.

1:08:17Justin Tranter:Yeah. And when you're old, you're blunt, right?

1:08:24Wendy Goldstein:I mean, there's that, you know, I wish I was like this when I was 20, but I wasn't. But the truth is I learned the hard way, made a lot of mistakes. You know, whenever I would make a record and it didn't work, I would do a Monday morning quarterback and I would evaluate it.

1:08:45Justin Tranter:Explain what that means because I actually meant to ask you, what do you do when you have failures and you just answered it without me asking? Yes.

1:08:51Wendy Goldstein:So a lot of it is I thought it was a hit, but it didn't work. And it could not work for a structural reason or the artist just isn't hot and no one cares. Or maybe the song isn't as great as I thought it was. Maybe the message in the song isn't as powerful as I initially thought. Or maybe the artist isn't connecting for a myriad of reasons. And to really just put it to bed, to learn from your mistakes is as important to know what not to do and not repeat that again is so valuable.

1:09:34Justin Tranter:So valuable.

1:09:34Wendy Goldstein:Because it's a job that they are paying you for your taste and your expertise.

1:09:41Justin Tranter:Yeah.

1:09:42Wendy Goldstein:Two of the most intangible things on the planet, the most subjective things on the planet. Like who's to say I have good taste and you should eat that. Like, like it's an opinion.

1:09:51Justin Tranter:Yeah. So you're making a career off of an opinion.

1:09:56Wendy Goldstein:Wow.

1:09:57Justin Tranter:Yeah. Love it. Everybody, Wendy Goldstein.

1:10:04Justin Tranter:Watch Unfamous on Spotify. Subscribe for no ads. I'll see you then.