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Up and Vanished: Episode 23 - Oregon Jon’s Polygraph Test
Episode Overview Podcast Title: Up and Vanished Episode Title: 23 | Oregon Jon’s Polygraph Test Host: Payne Lindsey Description: In this episode, the host investigates the results of a polygraph test taken by Oregon Jon, who volunteered to clear his name regarding the disappearance of Alaska Native, Florence Okpealuk. The episode walks through the testing process, the questions asked, and the implications of the results.
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Key Points
Introduction to Polygraphs
- Nature of Polygraphs:
- Not admissible in court; subject to debate.
- Serve as a tool to measure physiological responses when answering questions.
- Context and conditions of the test are crucial for interpreting results.
- John’s Motivation:
- Oregon Jon volunteered for the polygraph test to clear his name and seek truth in the case of Florence Okpealuk’s disappearance.
The Polygraph Process
- Preparation:
- A polygraph expert, Jessica, was flown in from Los Angeles to conduct the test.
- Setup:
- A controlled environment was established to minimize stress and ensure accurate readings.
- Questions were crafted to include both controlled (known truths) and relevant questions.
- Key Questions Asked:
- Examples include:
- "Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence?"
- "Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?"
- "Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who’s asked?"
The Testing Experience
- John’s Attitude:
- Initially calm and confident, but underlying tension present as he faced questioning.
- The Tests:
- Two tests were conducted: the first without cameras for a less pressured environment, and the second filmed for public scrutiny.
- Contradictory Responses:
- Notably, John provided different answers to the same question in two tests, raising questions about his honesty:
- First test: "Have you withheld any information?" → No.
- Second test: "Have you withheld any information?" → Yes.
Results and Implications
- Polygraph Findings:
- Indications of deception were noted in key areas:
- Signs of deception regarding whether he told the truth to law enforcement.
- Contradictions in responses about withholding information.
- Public Reaction:
- The episode encourages listeners to reflect on their beliefs about polygraph accuracy and implications of the results.
- Ongoing Investigation:
- The exploration into Florence Okpealuk’s case is not over; further developments are anticipated.
Conclusion
- Reflection on Truth:
- Emphasizes the importance of truth in the investigation and the need for continuous inquiry into unexplained circumstances.
- Upcoming Content:
- Promises more information and analysis in future episodes, maintaining audience engagement in the unfolding story.
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Key Takeaways
- Polygraph tests, while controversial, can provide insights into individual responses and behaviors during questioning.
- The psychological pressure of a polygraph can influence responses, making the interpretation of results complex.
- Contradictory answers raise critical questions about credibility and truthfulness, especially in a sensitive investigation.
- The pursuit of truth continues to be a central theme in the podcast, highlighting the significance of community engagement and inquiry in unresolved cases.
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Additional Information
- Host’s Background: Payne Lindsey has a history of investigating true crime cases, focusing the narrative on missing persons and unresolved mysteries.
- Podcast Production: Up and Vanished is produced by Tenderfoot TV and is committed to shedding light on cold cases and providing a platform for families affected by these tragedies.
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This markdown file outlines the critical aspects of the episode, offering insights into the narrative structure of the podcast while emphasizing the significant themes and discussions presented by the host.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
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1:02Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is released every Friday and brought to you absolutely free. But for ad-free listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts.
1:25Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is intended for mature audiences and may include topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, rape, and murder. The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey. Thank you so much for listening.
1:50Let me start by saying this. I know what you're thinking. A polygraph test? Yeah, I know. They're not admissible in court. They've been debated for decades. And depending on who you ask, they're either a breakthrough tool or complete junk science. The truth is somewhere in the middle. A polygraph isn't an answer. It's just a tool. A way to measure how your body reacts when you're asked a question. That's it. I'm not here to convince you of its accuracy. In fact, anyone out there rolling their eyes right now, I see you. because honestly, I'm just as dubious as you are. I've never been someone who thinks the polygraph test is some sort of holy grail.
2:35I take them all with a grain of salt. And that's why the context and the circumstances surrounding what you're about to hear are very important to remember. And please hear me clearly. John asked for this himself. He wanted to take this test himself. He wanted us to film it. He wanted you guys to see and to hear it. John wasn't paid to do this. He wants to simply clear his name. And as for me, and the family of Florence Okpialik, we just want the truth. I'm sure like many of you, I thought there was no way he'd actually go through with this. Surely he was bluffing. But he wasn't. Not one bit. And that in itself already stands for something in my book.
3:24And if we're going to do this polygraph test, we have to do it right. By the book, no shortcuts, no pressure, just clean data. Whatever that even means. So let's talk facts. According to some studies, it's claimed that under ideal conditions, polygraph tests can be up to 85 to 90 % accurate. But the National Academy of Sciences also warns there can be serious flaws and false positives. But let's also talk history. False confessions. Malicious police tactics. Misused results. We've all heard this. There's a dark side of this tool, too. So no, this is not a verdict. This isn't science fiction. This is just more information.
4:11Data. Take it or leave it. Because when you're trying to figure out if someone's telling the truth, sometimes the best thing is to just look them in the eye and ask them.
4:45From Tinderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey.
5:20the polygrapher, and you only see him after the real test. So if you set it up that way, you get the best possible results because he's not going to see you until after the real test. My producer Dylan and I have been going back and forth on this for about a week straight. A polygraph test isn't just a yes or no decision. It's a domino. One that, once pushed, could fall in any direction. And the scary part, we won't know which way until it's already too late. What if John fails miserably? Like, really fails? Would he start to unravel in front of us? That's not being dramatic. That's just being real.
6:03What I've learned throughout the years is that when you corner someone who's hiding something, there's truly no telling what they might do next. Especially if they feel they're at the end of their road and maybe have nothing else to lose. At the same time, if he passes, public perception could shift instantly. We might even start second-guessing things ourselves. Now, it wouldn't take away from all the other crimes he's committed, especially those towards women, which we do have the court documents for, but that's how powerful this moment could be, regardless of anyone's personal opinion of the science behind it.
6:43Let's come up with what we think are the hard-hitting questions and what could be a resolution to something. We care about the data. We're going to be by the book about that. I don't want to have any sway. I want to set up the scenario that is an authentic result.
7:12Thank you for coming. My pleasure. We flew in a 20-year polygraph expert from Los Angeles to Portland. Her name is Jessica, and she definitely knows her shit. Absolutely. All right. We had a hotel room set aside for the test, and she began unpacking all her gear. Every cord, every sensor, every pulse. And I'm just watching, slowly feeling the gravity sink in.
8:04Meanwhile, I keep refreshing my phone, waiting for Oregon John's text. He just landed in Portland, too. And the blood pressure cuff.
8:20I've done dozens and dozens of interviews. I've talked to murder suspects, even serial killers. I've walked into some pretty dark places. But this, today, was making me feel a new kind of nervous. Because this wasn't just a conversation. conversation. This was a psychological reaction.
9:06yes, there's no consequence for that, right? It only reacts to relevant questions where you might lie like, did you rob the bank last night? And you say no, but you really did. It would react to your microscopic changes in your body chemistry.
9:25The knees will go across this upper and lower chest, stomach.
9:33And this is the same photograph that federal and law enforcement agencies use for both their law enforcement officers and suspects.
9:49I'm going to turn this on. I'm not going to leave it running because it will freeze if you leave it running. In terms of the questions, they have to be yes or no, right? Something you can answer with a yes or a no, with your mouth only. So you want to have this person sit like a statue for not more than four or five minutes. We're going to pepper in the relevant questions with some controlled questions or known truths so that we keep a good baseline of what his body does when he's telling the truth so that when he's asked a relevant question, we can see his internal reaction. The last time I saw John, I was undercover.
10:22I catfished him. and I was about to meet him face to face for the first time as the real me. No masks, no fake names. Everything seemed to be going smoothly. Almost too smoothly. I checked my phone again. John is now in his Uber, eight minutes away. Some people can control to a certain extent. Maybe they're breathing or something, but you can't control everything. one way or another your breathing will react or your blood pressure or the internal sweat that squirt to your fingertips but you have to give the body time to calm down between each question that's why you're asked controlled questions in between or known truths in between you don't want to just keep them elevated that that defeats the purpose right that you will not get an accurate reading like that so four relevant or questions of importance each chart covered in with the controlled questions or the known truth.
11:24ETA two minutes. I'm about to meet John in the hotel lobby. It's time to put my game face on and finish what I started. And right before I headed down, Jessica had one last question for me. You want to administer the questions or me? By the book. I would like you to. Okay.
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16:35I meet John in the lobby. He walked in cool, calm, cheery almost.
16:46Maybe even a little bit cocky. I left a semester school to go to Alaska. But confidence isn't truth. It's also sometimes a mask people wear when they want to control the room. Probably a lot similar to the one I'm wearing right now. Magic. This is just a good one.
17:12So, this was it. The wires. The questions. The silence. it's strange, watching a man walk into a room to be judged by machines. And you start to ask yourself, do I even want the truth? Am I afraid of what it actually might confirm? Then you have the flip side. Two years into an investigation the police gave up on. A missing Alaska Native woman, Florence Okpialik, and the person who last saw her alive, as we know it, is about to sit down in the hot seat. There's no turning back now. And so, the test begins. Are you ready to start the test? Yes. Okay. Is today Friday? No. Okay. Have you ever eaten at Taco Bell?
18:09Yes. Okay.
18:14Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Aquila? No.
18:22Have you ever ridden on a train? Yes.
18:31Do you know what happened to Florence? No.
18:40In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble?
18:48Yes. Okay.
18:53Do you know how to make pancakes? Yes. Okay.
19:02Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? Yes.
19:19Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?
Read the full transcript
19:29Yes.
19:37You heard it. There it is. But here's the twist. If you watched this first on Instagram Live last week, you didn't see the whole thing. This was by design. For the best interest of all parties here, what you saw and what you just listened to was actually the second polygraph test. That's because during the first test, we took extreme measures to ensure that John was in the least stressful environment possible. No me, no cameras in his face, no lights, no added pressure, just John, Jessica, and the polygraph machine. So let's rewind a bit. Back to the first test. This test happened immediately after me bringing John upstairs.
20:46Y 'all can both text me if you need me. We'll just be right down the hall. Let me turn this off. I'll leave y 'all to it, okay? Yeah. All right. You know, I used to work for the government and stuff. I had to take a couple of these and, you know, just even get hired. If you're a government employee, you do. I was a contractor and I worked for the Census Department. Oh, okay. Then you're familiar with that. I actually went to Quantico and got a profiler job. Oh, wow. I worked at Guantanamo for three years. My religious beliefs, I help a lot of people that are in bad situations. That's how this situation arose.
21:24And I asked for this. Okay. Because I've been being harassed. You know, and people just believe the worst. I live in a small town of 2 ,000. We have tourists. It's Ketchikan, Alaska. Oh. This originally happened in Nome, Alaska, which only has 1 ,200 people. Therefore, the rumor mill in very small towns. I yes you know I've been assaulted I've been run off the road oh my god I have to carry a firearm everywhere I go up there the police know about it because they've had to respond multiple times they already did their own investigation you know and it's what happened with that one did they were you cleared or well they they can't find anything on me there's no current case oh you know um so no PD they called them they don't even really remember who I am even all right well are Are you ready for our polygraph test today?
22:14Oh yeah. So, um... No drugs, no alcohol. I did have a half a drink on the plane yesterday here. And that was about two. That's okay. My question would be, are you hydrated with water? I just drink about two or three of these a day. Holy cow. I'm also a merchant semen. I, uh... Which, that's a lot of background checks. I volunteered for this and he seemed kind of shocked. Cause they kind of... But that's good. You know, cause they... I don't know... Yeah, I don't know anything about that. He does a podcast and he's given me the opportunity to completely clear my head. And that's why I'm here. We'll do the test.
22:51We'll do a test without him in here. And then when we're done, so I've been doing this since the 1990s. I'm going to ask you a series of questions. And in between each question, we're going to give you like 20 seconds. There's four relevant questions I'm going to ask you regarding this case. And then it'll be peppered in with some controlled questions or what we know is known truths. like is the sky blue along with a couple of questions that are meant to embarrass you like have you ever sold change out of your parents wallet when you were a little boy or you know something like that just it's just to get a baseline correct so you're very familiar with this so i'm gonna hook you up to the equipment and it's going to be an upper lower thoracic which is your breathing measures your breathing along with a blood pressure cuff and gsr which is a galvanized skin response which we will put on your fingertips so you're gonna just answer yes or no and you're gonna sit like a statue for like four or five minutes at the month um I won't we'll do that and then after the first chart we can call pain in and then and don't move so make sure you don't move okay like I said you're gonna sit like a statue so are you ready yes okay so I'm gonna you don't need to stand up for any I'm gonna get this chain around you so I'm going over your head and then lean back a little bit probably and I want it snug but not too tight.
24:10One more and then you can push your arms down. I'm going to put this on your arm for the blood pressure and then leave this hand here and I will put these on here. So I appreciate you volunteering for this. Well, it'll help the investigation concentrate on where it should be. There you go. See, that's good. You're doing another good deed and you can just relax right there okay take a deep breath for me are you ready to start the test yes okay
24:47is today Sunday yes
25:00Have you ever eaten at McDonald's? Yes. Okay.
25:15Alright, this is a relevant question. have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Akpiluk? No.
25:27Okay.
25:31Have you ever flown on an airplane? Yes.
25:40Is Florence Akpiluk alive?
25:47Unknown.
25:57Do you know how to ride a bike? Yes. Yes.
26:11In the last year, have you ever been pulled over by a police officer and lied to get out of a ticket? No. Okay.
26:28Do you know what happened to Florence? No.
26:43Are there other people involved in her disappearance? Unknown?
26:58on did you ever sneak out of the house when you're a little boy
27:06turn on me doesn't matter it's not a relevant question me too yes or no did best your no okay okay Okay. That is the end of our first chart. Alright, so that chart was stopped. I'm going to start a new chart. Are you comfortable? You want to drink water or anything? I drink a cup of water. We were talking. Okay. Alright, got your breathing, got your blood pressure. Alright, are you ready to start the test? Yes. Okay.
27:52Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell? Yes. Okay.
27:59We have a lot of questions here. Okay.
28:07Do you know how to ride a bicycle? Yes. Okay.
28:22Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Octane? No.
28:38Have you ever ridden on a train? Yes.
28:57Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? Yes.
29:10Okay.
29:16When you were a teenager, did you ever steal from a grocery store? Yes. Okay.
29:30Do you know how to ride a horse?
29:35Yes. Okay.
29:44Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? No.
29:56Okay.
30:00Do you know what happened to Florence? No.
30:12Before today, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble? Yes. All right. We're done with this charge. I'm going to let Payne know. So have you told the truth about everything that you know about Florence? I'll read that on. No, I should ask. Oh, yes. Jessica sent me a text asking me to come back inside. Oh God, what is it now? Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and keep an eye on your kids' spending with real-time notifications.
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32:24You can only keep someone hooked up for solo. Yeah, right. Or it's becoming ridiculous. Yeah, so now the third set... Here came the first monkey wrench. John felt that some of the questions I prepared for him were unfair. Because in a polygraph test, you must answer yes or no questions only. And I agree with him. Because if he doesn't actually know something, then he couldn't really answer yes or no. so on the fly right there in the room i quickly made up two new questions i showed jessica she approved and then john began asking why we weren't filming this test i explained it to him that i wanted to give him an opportunity to take this polygraph without all the theatrics even admitting to him that it'd probably make me nervous too but i stepped out once more so they could finish the first test to me that would feel like nerve-wracking to get cameras out of my face kind of thing i was kind of actually expecting that no no I was and I was kind of hoping for it so that the well so I do it so I want to this actually happened so I'm not that's why I'm here now right so I wanted to give you more data so my point here is for you want to know that this actually so this one I'll be here I won't say anything but I'm going to film this one checkable yeah okay So here we go.
33:49Round two, I guess. John wants this next one filmed. No problem. We had to adjust two of the questions. So once they were back set up, I left the room once more to let them finish. But now we at least have two sets of data to compare by the end of all these sessions. He respected that. And I also respected the fact that he wanted the world to see him for his own vindication. I left the room once more to let them finish the test. And once they were done, we planned on filming the next one. I sat down at this tiny table and positioned myself quietly at the edge, pulled out my iPhone, and just started filming.
34:32Are you ready to start the test? Yes. Okay. Is today Friday? No. Okay. Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell? Yes. Okay. Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence? No.
34:55Have you ever ridden on a train? Yes.
35:04Do you know what happened to Florence? No.
35:13In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble?
35:22Yes. Okay.
35:27Do you know how to make pancakes? Yes. Okay.
35:36Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? Yes.
35:52Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?
36:02Yes.
36:21You heard this test already in the very beginning of the episode, but it wasn't until 24 hours later, once I got back home, thousands of miles away from here, that I noticed something very odd from the first test he took with Jessica. After all, I wasn't in the room. So this was the first time I had heard any of the audio from it. This is where things start to unravel a bit. Let's go back to that first test, the one where I'm not there. It's just the two of them. And let's rewind back to that very last question.
37:01Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? No.
37:10Have you withheld information from anyone else who's asked? Pretty straightforward, in my opinion. His answer the first time, when I was not in the room, was no. Meaning, no, he has not withheld any information regarding Florence to anyone else who's asked. Not the police, anyone, including me. Okay. But what's stranger is that during the second test, the one where I'm there, literally sitting across the table, he has a completely different answer.
37:45Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?
37:53Yes.
38:00Yes? So you are withholding information? He was asked the same question twice. And it wasn't a complicated one. First test. No. Second test. Oddly enough, when I'm in the room with him, his answer is yes. This wasn't a polygraph reading. This wasn't a twitch in the needle. It was a verbal contradiction. You heard it. Even if I try to play devil's advocate here. and come up with a million reasons why he answered the questions differently. The irony behind all of this makes everything different. Have you withheld information from anyone else who's asked? That very question is the sole reason John is here in the first place.
38:43Because John has swore to me up and down for hours upon hours on the phone that he has, in fact, told me all he knows, which is why he came here today. to prove to me, and anyone else, that that's true. So, what is he holding back? Anything? Was it just a word slip-up? Take the polygraph out entirely, and what you have is a man giving two completely different answers to the same question within a 20-minute period. A question that's tethered to the entire reason he's here today. Hmm. Before we packed up, I gave John the chance to say, well, whatever he'd like to, on record, to the family, the community, you guys.
39:31I want to give you the opportunity just to say why you chose to do this today, your piece, and so people can see that. And whatever you want to add, also want to say thank you for being a man of your word. I just like you want to move on through life and keep searching for the truth truth is very important to me it's part of my beliefs in my religion and everything and the reason to be honest the biggest reason why I want to do this was to give my life a little peace Flo and Flo's family deserves to know that this area here is not you know to concentrate to be able to look at other places because as long as suspicion is upon me it's not going to be looked at in other places or as much I don't want to be barking up the wrong tree either And nobody deserves anything like this to happen to them.
40:42And if anything I can do to help, I have to. Well, thanks again, man. I'm glad it was a relief. One question. Did I pass?
41:00The question we all want to know, right? But let's talk for a second here. I know how split the audience will be on any polygraph result at all. If you're someone who firmly believes it's all junk science, or if you're someone who has a lot of faith in this test for whatever reason, or you're somewhere in the middle, I want you to ask yourself right now, will these results do anything for you? Or have you already made up your mind? I told Jessica to hold off on telling anyone, even myself, what the results were until the entire test was over and everyone was out of that building and back in a safe place.
41:42A few hours later, after she had a chance to review the charts, I came back in and asked myself, And before you hear this, I want you to remember everything I've said about polygraph tests. They're debated amongst the science community. Inadmissible in court. It's just a tool. Remember that. Now, what's your reaction going to be? Some deception. You can wait until they get back. Of course. Yeah, I'll wait so I don't want to repeat it. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, good for him coming in to do it.
42:26So, what do we think? So let me pull these up so I can accurately, even though I know some off the top of my head.
42:39So, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? There were signs of deception.
42:51Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked on that one? There were signs of deception. And I think he moved on that one too, so I can't say with 100 % accuracy because of the movement that he did.
43:09Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence? Definite fail.
43:19and the two that were the ones where we had to change that is Florence alive he was him high and he didn't know how to answer it so he didn't want to confirm yes or no and correct I get that and also the one where are there other people involved in her disappearance it was showing deception even though but he was also moving he was him high because he wasn't sure how to answer it. Didn't he also answer yes to one of the questions? He did. He did answer yes. To a question about withholding information. Right. So that's what I was going to say. So the first time he didn't, but the second time he did.
43:58I don't know. When I was in here he said yes. So when he said yes, that one was true that he withheld information.
44:12He failed questions. Big ones, in fact. He contradicted himself. He spiked off the charts when asked about having sexual contact with Florence. Which is strange enough considering sex itself isn't a crime unless it was non-consensual. So, I'm going to let that resonate with you. It is what it is. But next week, I'll have Jessica on the podcast to further explain in detail all this data from the tests. And as for me, a major question still remains. What does John still know that he's not telling me about Florence? Or does he have a good explanation for why he lied about it? What you heard today was real.
45:04What it all means, part of that's up to you. Stay tuned next week For another episode of Up and Vanished In the Midnight Sun And thank you again to John For being a man of your word And making the effort to do this in the first place Our investigation into Florence and Joseph Isn't over Don't you guys know me by now? We have even more new information That is going to change everything I'm looking at it on my computer screen right now But it's not for clicks y 'all One step at a time The truth is what I care about See you next week
46:08Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Lead producer is Mike Rooney along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanik-Glen, and Eric Quintana. Artwork by Rob Sheridan. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set.
46:43Mixed and mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and The Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes. For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app, or visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.
47:13At City Harvest, we believe no New Yorker has to go hungry. With your help, we're on the road every day, rescuing over 86 million pounds of nutritious food and delivering it free to millions of New Yorkers, transforming surplus food into sustenance, sustainability, and smiles, rallying thousands of New Yorkers to power a network of nourishment across our city. Feed good for our communities, our city, and our planet. Donate at cityharvest.org. In 2007, a man was murdered in a quiet Memphis suburb. The case was closed fast, maybe too fast. I've spent the past year retracing the investigation, following the evidence and the lives that were forever changed.
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From the publisher
Polygraph tests aren’t proof — but they can reveal pressure points. In this episode, Oregon Jon agrees to take one. We walk through every question, every reaction, and what the results might mean. It’s not science. It’s not evidence. But it is... something.
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