Inside the Investigation with Payne Lindsey, Dennis Cooper, and Kyle Tekiela

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1:06What are you doing? These guys are true crime podcasters like me. They have their own investigations and stories that they've told. I'm huge fans of theirs, and I've known them for a long time. I think we all have kind of our own unique experience in this space, and also like a lot of similarities. And I just kind of want to just rip it open with, I'll start with you, Kyle. For those who don't know, what is just the logline of your story, your podcast? And you came to us years ago, and I was like, okay, holy shit, we're making a podcast about this. But for those who don't know, tell them what the premise is.

1:46Yeah, Crick County is the story of my dad who lived a secret double life as a Chicago mafia hitman. And the whole family, including myself and my mother, didn't know about it. He kept it secret from all of us for 30-something years. And I found out when I was like 29. I was already married. I was already planning on having a kid. And now I have this bombshell dropped in my lap. So what am I supposed to do with this information? And so it took me years to kind of digest all of that. And then I started recording just for posterity, just for family archives. And then as time went on and the more footage I got of him, it just started to come together.

2:25like it just needed to be something bigger than just a family thing it needed to be a show so i've watched the sopranos and stuff like that i like goodfellas i like mafia style movies i don't know what it's like for it to be a true story because a part of me is like that's badass but that's definitely not what you thought correct well what's weird is i still don't know what it's like okay because i grew up with like he was just a firefighter paramedic in my eyes like we had no idea so we lived like normal boring suburban lives right it wasn't like we knew that he was this big mafia hitman growing up and he had a reputation around town and everyone knew we were like mafia you know kids like that's not how it was at all like we just thought we were a regular a regular family so it's weird knowing now that that whole part of my life was kind of like a lie and that there was always danger around every corner like if he did something he fucked up like that could have come back on us, but we had no idea.

3:23So that's crazy to think about. What was your first reaction and where have you settled now? My first reaction was you're full of shit. Like, are you insane? Have you lost your mind? Now, mind you, he was also like, I put him through rehab and I got him clean. So he was a heroin addict. So I'm like, is this some like heroin, like fever dream? Like, what are you talking about? What happened in that rehab I put you in? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, it wasn't an ayahuasca trip, was it? Right. So but but over time, as he started telling me more and more of the story and it became this huge, like, you know, full of details and full of life.

3:59And, you know, I'm starting to verify things with people that he grew up with and other family members who didn't know but kind of knew that he had like a dark side. And it all started to make sense like, oh, this actually is real. I don't know how much is real, but it's real. Like there's enough there that that's real. So I just started diving in and doing the work, and eventually we got Crook County out of the deal. So to sum it up, at this point in time, how do you feel about it, actually? Are you mad? Are you— You know, if he wasn't such a fuck-up, pardon my French, and it didn't, like— The mafia thing didn't destroy the family.

4:37His heroin addiction destroyed the family. Okay. So I'm pissed that he's a degenerate heroin addict and that the dynamic of our family is like gone because... Is that associated with the double life he was living? Well, I mean, he was always like, I mean, he's around narcotics and cocaine and booze all the time. And he's, you know, it's just, I can't imagine the stress and guilt you could feel being someone who's killed people, multiple people, like that had to weigh on him. And so you self-medicate, right? But it got really bad because as a firefighter, he was in a really bad accident. and then they gave him all these painkillers to deal with the surgeries.

5:15And that's when everything escalated as far as his addiction is concerned. And that's like when he lost control of it. You got like a legal form first and then it just became an absolute. Exactly. Then he had to hit the streets after they cut him off. So it's like I'm more mad that that happened. But now it's like I guess I'm grateful that we didn't get the mafia blowback as a kid. Like I'm grateful that whatever he did didn't come back on us. so it's a weird full of very contracting you know emotions you know i've covered dozens of stories but they've never been about you know my family right um sure and so like that's got to be a completely different beast and so i i think that one kudos to you for for i mean i'm sure maybe it's even therapeutic in some weird way to to sort of like put it down and like i don't know Is it a processing part of that?

6:08I mean, it took me years to make it for a reason. Yeah. Because I needed that time to process it. And because the whole time I'm also investigating, I'm learning new information. I'm getting new stories out of him. I'm interviewing people. I'm getting more raw emotions from people. And so it took a long time to, you know, I'm like editing and putting a story together and also processing things at the same time. Then I take a break. Then I edit a little bit and then I process and I take a break. Yeah. And so, but yeah, now that it's all done, it's extremely cathartic. Like, I feel like that monkey's off my back now.

6:40And it's no longer my burden like it was. Like, now it's, like, out into the world. And now it's, like, a gift, like, my gift to other people to maybe listen and maybe learn from or maybe gain some inspiration or hope or whatever.

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10:21let's start with just culpable season one like you getting into true crime podcasting just that journey yeah so uh not a personal story so much uh you know working with strangers uh on the contrary but as you know i mean you were a big inspiration for me um i just pretty much heard what you did and thought i could probably steal that formula like yeah that guy i can do better than that guy yeah you know so and he did and he's so much better he did i've been that's what i've been saying i've been trying to tell you guys but yeah no i i just uh funny enough i never intended on doing this it was just something that you know i thought was really cool and i was inspired what you did i thought maybe i could and you know to shorten a long story i learned about christian andriacchio's case at crime con of all places which is why I always love coming to this.

11:13I always love seeing so many people out here and seeing these people, you know, pass out their loved ones flyers, just trying to get attention on it because, you know, ultimately at the end of the day you want to solve these cases that you follow. But a big part of it, too, is just getting them the attention that they need and deserve. And so it was 2018 CrimeCon Nashville and got a flyer from one of his family members about his case and contacted Ray Andriacchio and the rest is history from now. telling the story of an unsolved case and you're basically trying to pick up where investigators left off and move the needle.

11:49Tell me from your perspective what that's actually like. Well, it's tough. I mean, there's there's so many layers to it. You know, just to go back to the start of your question about picking up the pieces where they've been left off, you know, oftentimes that's the problem with these cases. That's why they remain unsolved is because that attention dies off. The police department or sheriff's office moves on to new cases. And this one is just getting colder and colder by the day. And so, you know, also these are more often than not open cases. So it's not something that you can just walk in there and see the whole book on it and all the investigative work that went into it.

12:32Right. You're really like you alluded to more than anything, starting from scratch. Now, fortunately, in season one of Culpable, Christian's mother, Ray, was just a warrior, a bulldog of sorts. I referred to her and she, you know, for years was like, I'm not going to give up on this. I'm going to get to the bottom of this. And so, you know, I had a leg up in a sense of that. I knew some information going into it, but for different reasons. The authorities there did not have any interest opening up the doors anymore on that or working with us in any capacity, and that's still something I think all of us struggle with to this day.

13:15I know you just had some of that in your most recent season. It's just I think a lot of them are still warming up to the idea of people like us coming in and trying to help them, essentially, at the end of the day. but then on the on the personal side it's it's a different kind of struggle because I do want to have a personal connection I do want to connect with the family and meet them on an emotional level I've always been a natural you know just empathizer and so I have no problem making those connections where I struggle is you know it's sensitive material and they can't write these stories these are our stories um about about their loved one and so that balance is is always a struggle it's always a struggle of knowing what to say and how to best say it in a way that's um you know caring and concerning of of their emotions but also getting the truth out there what's actually the hardest part about it genuinely or maybe even not even when you're doing it but like afterwards and sort of like you know i was told by mark smerling who who did the jane's six seven years ago and at the time i didn't even fully get what he meant he said these stories never leave you and i was like right i was like what do you mean he's like they never leave you he starts talking about cases he did 25 years ago i was like i still talk to those people and I'm like, you're right.

14:46And, like, I'd only been eight months into investigating Tara Grinsa's disappearance. And I was like, I guess it's going to be, like, part of my life forever. What does that even mean, right? But it's true. Yeah, it's very true. I can't really put it a better way than you just did. I mean, I think in... Well, you should. I'm going to do my best. I mean, it's like... Yeah. I didn't know this going into it either. When I decided to do season one of Culpable, I just thought it was like, talk to who needs to be talked to, figure out what you can figure out, write a story, record it. You're like, that guy didn't do, I could do that shit.

15:25I underestimated it. You fucked around and found out. I fucked around and found out. Yeah, you're like, damn. And then I'm like, holy shit. He has trauma too, I bet. Yeah, like it is a long journey, an emotional journey. I mean, I'm pretty sure I've shaved years off my own life. But again, it's not a pity party. Right. I'm fortunate to be able to do this and I love doing this. But man, it's a lot. And I didn't realize when I signed a contract to do that show that in a way I was signing a contract with the family of like, we're in this together forever essentially right and that's that's really what it was I mean I just I just I just uh contacted Ray Andreacchio um just about a month or so ago and and we kind of did a follow-up and put an episode out about it and we're talking like what's new and you know do we need to do some other follow-up and this and that and it's just you know we're talking about our families and stuff.

16:24It's not just about the victim. I mean, we're meeting on a more personal level. You look around and see other true crime podcasts and they're mostly not about their own personal story about their dad being living some double life. So what was your approach and the closeness that you had with that and how you would delicately, I mean, because there's a level of vulnerability there I can only imagine was kind of just weird and like maybe uncomfortable. 100 you know like at first it's a story about my dad and then as i'm recording and i'm asking myself questions and i'm contemplating and i'm mulling all this stuff over i'm going well no it's much more than that it's a story about like what happened to my mom too and it's also a story about what happened to my brother which means it's a story about what happened to me so it's like i'm like going through all these mental like exercises and i'm trying to figure this out and at a certain point I said I have to put myself into the story you kind of just have to be uh completely shameless yeah and like get rid of the ego yeah and like if you if like you know there are times when I felt like I was really weak and I made weak decisions because I was young and immature you know you almost have to like take a step back and like I become a character in my own story and but I'm not that character I am that character but I have to treat it like I'm the director of another family.

17:42It's a part of how you got here. Right. So it's a weird exercise, and it was hard at first or awkward at first, but over time, it becomes second nature, and then by the end of it, it's just like I don't care at all. I completely wear my heart on my sleeve. I will say exactly what I'm thinking. I don't care if you don't like me, but in contrast to what you guys do, I'm not treating it like a procedural crime that I have to solve. I'm treating it like I am telling a very deep, intense story with a million different layers, and I have to do it, and I have to do it authentically, and I have to do it in a way that is going to make the family proud.

18:20That family just happens to be my family.

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20:08The human curiosity is at the core like a relatable thing. Oh, for sure. And that manifests in different ways. So for you, Dennis, like how do you creatively keep going when it already is a lot of pressure from a cold case standpoint? And there's people saying, you suck, you got it wrong. And the family's like, I don't know if you're right. And the law enforcement's like, don't come over here. Yeah. Right? Well, I think ultimately it's just enjoying what you do and being passionate about it. I mean, like you said, none of us really have the qualifications, you could say, to be in here, whatever those qualifications are.

20:46Some of us don't. I don't. Kyle, I definitely don't. No, for sure. If hair were to be a qualification, you do. Oh, yeah. I have a PhD. You do. It looks so real. It's a great rug. It looks very real. It's a great rug. I got a great rug guy. But yeah, just being passionate about it. That's why I love making connections with families. I think that kind of helps keep you going, making a very deep connection with the victim and knowing I'm in this for the long haul, no matter how hard it gets. But I think if you peeled back all of our layers, I'm sure there's something there that points to why we're here.

21:25I mean, as a college dropout, I probably shouldn't be here. But at the same time, like I was as a kid, I I did watch Survivor. I was not filming anybody, but I did like to write short stories for fun, you know. And so I always had kind of a creative itch, I guess you could say, as a writer. For whatever reason, I did not pursue that as a career in any sort of way. And, you know, but it worked out nonetheless, I guess you could say. So, yeah. But I think ultimately it's like you said, making something that you would want to listen to. because, as you know, having made it yourself, and I listened to it as a fan, what, seven years ago, whatever it was, like, you clearly didn't sound like you knew what the hell you were doing, you know?

22:10Clearly. Clearly. How clearly was that to you? It sounded like you were walking around with a Zoom. You were like, I want to follow it. I'm going to, like, do exactly what that guy did. It sounded like you were walking around with a Zoom recorder, walking up to people saying, hey, do you know anything about this? That was, like, 25 % of it. but at the same time it made it seem attainable and also made it made me realize like damn you can you can convey a lot and you can tell a really compelling story by just having your heart in it and uh and and through audio only and that amazed me as somebody who was always fascinated with watching true crime and growing up watching shows like dateline 2020 and watching every documentary that was out there to learn that there was this medium where it had no visual representation, but yet you could feel like you were in a movie was like, well, damn, I want to do that.

23:00That sounds really cool and easier. Honestly, like, I don't know how to work a camera. That'd be a whole nother thing to try to learn. So, um, so, you know, I just try to master that and, uh, you know, keep my heart in it until the end with the stories I tell. In the future going forward in any other projects you do, how are you approaching it differently? or what have you learned and what do you want to bring forward for your own for your own work in this space doing different seasons of culpable means you know you can pick a different case each time and with that opens the door to all different possibilities you know this newest season of culpable is very different in that um right when i started to produce it um some some events happened and i i obtained like the case file to this case and and on beyond that there was like all these different recordings and stuff from way back in 1998, which has been really cool to utilize and work with and was something very different than I did in past seasons.

23:57So, I mean, I think in some ways, like, each story just being different, each victim being different, each family being different, each expert you talk to, like, it opens possibilities, like, different creative avenues. Because I'm like you as a creative. Like, you definitely don't ever want to get stuck in a lane or feel like you're just doing the same thing over and over and over. It drives me nuts. You also want to look like you're doing, like, your best still, right? Yeah, just coming up with new things. Not getting lazy. Yeah, complacent with more of these. For sure. It's like, that's not what this is, right?

24:25And that's why also deep down, I also would like to break out at some point and try something different. I messaged you when High Strains came out, and I was like, man. You were like, take me on a UFO ride. Please. All right. It didn't sound quite as emotionally exhausting, you know what I mean? It's different. That is very true. And it just, you know, so I think at some point, too, I'd like to try to branch out and do some different types of projects like that. And you should. I think that, like, your storytelling, like, skill set is, could live in so many different lanes. And I think that's what it takes sometimes to even, like, get this sort of energy back where, like, I've gone through, like, whoa, man.

25:07I have to, like, heal after, like, being in the trenches with something. I was going to say, do you have to take a vacation after you finish the season? It's like it kind of just builds up. I don't even realize it's gotten so bad. Who am I? I usually notice that the bags under the eyes is always the dead giveaway. When you start seeing those, when you look in the mirror, it's like, that's not good. You're like, but I did sleep. I know. It's just a – you learn that through time. and you got to like take care of yourself to be able to do something especially about anyone else and yeah yeah keeping that 100 you got to be on your game otherwise you're going to do a disservice to whatever the story is right or you shouldn't be doing this there's like a pressure there yeah for sure i mean that's another thing too but like some of the stuff that i don't know if you've done this in years but like you were doing stuff that was like live like you were editing and then like the next episode's not done yet, but it's releasing next week.

26:09That's got to be insane. It's important to sort of like check yourself, balance yourself, to make sure you're doing it the right way. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, there's a rule I learned in Hollywood a long time ago is nobody knows what they're doing, and nobody knows what they're talking about, no matter how successful. And I think to some degree that's extremely true. Right. You know, and so you just, you can't beat yourself up if you're trying to do your own thing. You just got to go and do it and believe in yourself and just persistence is key. and just keep cranking away and like it'll just start to make sense and it'll just start to get good if it's not good yet it will if you just keep working at it and i think that's what makes us a little crazy you kind of have to be a little crazy to do it yeah a little bit because like not everyone's going to be like yes correct right like there's a period time where i was like i don't i don't really get what he's doing to be honest and you're like you got to push through that part and you're like damn maybe they're right i shouldn't be doing any of this shit yeah right And that applies with anything.

27:04But also, no, fuck those people because you believe in yourself. So just do what you want to do. That's true. So don't be influenced by that. I'm like, wow, this guy just doesn't care about anybody. Just fuck us. Really? He's so self-centered. I just realized I'm swearing a lot in this panel. I apologize to everybody. It's fucking fine. Sorry. I'm from Chicago. Don't even fucking worry about it, bro. This is fucking GrimeCon, dude. thank you guys for sitting here and listening to us talk shit for a little while this has been really enjoyable hopefully you guys were at least mildly entertained or you learned something or at least you're like okay I'm never fucking with those guys again I don't know thanks for joining us cheers y 'all thanks for listening this conversation was live from CrimeCon with Kyle Tequila and Dennis Cooper.