Live from CrimeCon 2024 with Payne Lindsey, Dennis Cooper, and Liam Luxon

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1:41Hey listeners, John Street here from the Tenderfoot team. As you may know, many of Tenderfoot's shows have topped the charts over the years. Actually, we've had over a dozen number one shows since we started back in 2016. And that's thanks to you, our listeners. But have you ever wondered what it takes to make a successful podcast? Or what the journey's like for creators? Sometimes shows start slow and steady. Then next thing you know, they're reaching millions of listeners and making a real difference. And often they gain momentum overnight. So what's the secret? Is it hard work? Sheer luck? Maybe some of both?

2:14Well, our team recently attended CrimeCon 2024 in Nashville. And I sat down with Payne Lindsey of Up and Vanished, Dennis Cooper of Culpable, and Liam Luxon of Status Untraced. And they talked about their experience as first-time hosts who created a number one show. and what they share might surprise you. Enjoy the conversation. Okay, we made it. We did. We did. We're here. We're all here. Thanks for doing this, guys. Hey, we have our diehard fans here. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. We are at a place unlike anything else I've ever been to, the Gaylord Opryland. First, I want to get everybody's thoughts on this place.

2:52It's a very unique venue. Yeah. Thoughts? Have you ever seen the movie Biodome? Yes. I have. It reminds me of that, where it's a pretend outside, and for a moment, the illusion can trick you. And then in a brief moment later, you're like, holy shit, I'm actually inside. And you had this weird panic, and then you're like, wait, it's still cool. There's a waterfall. But I don't think you can spend more than three days in here without completely losing your mind. No, I would agree with that. Other than that, it's beautiful. They did a great job. So we're here at CrimeCon. Payne, have you been to every CrimeCon?

3:27Maybe. Maybe? It definitely feels like I have. Okay. I'll just go ahead and say yes to that. All right. Hard yes from pain. I went to the first one. I know that. Okay. Which was where? It was in Indianapolis. Okay. Yep. And the second one was here, right? I have no idea. We've definitely had a crime con here before. They all kind of blur together. With other conferences in between, I'm like, was that crime con? Was that another thing? I don't know. But I've definitely been here before for crime con. I believe. Right, Mike? Right? Yeah. 18. So now it feels like a deja vu thing. Yeah, it does. All right.

4:04So we're here to talk about number one show. So obviously each of you have a different show that you've kind of pioneered, created. Pain, everybody knows pain. Liam, why don't you take a second to introduce yourself in the show? Sure. Yeah. So my name is Liam Luxon. My show is called Status Untraced. It's about a nomadic traveler who went missing under extremely suspicious circumstances in India. He wasn't just like a nomadic traveler though. He was an extremely trained survivalist. One of the last things he ever said was, I should be back mid-September. If I'm not back by then, don't come looking for me.

4:40And then disappeared soon afterwards. You could call him the lead suspect, was arrested and spent three weeks in jail. And about three days before he was released, was found hanging in his jail cell. And that was, yeah, that's That's the baseline of the story. There's a 10-episode series on it called Status Untraced, which is out now. And took four years to make. Took four years to make, and it's incredible. And it's a deep-dive investigative story. And it's his very first podcast, and it actually went number one. Dennis, what you got? Oh, my intro. Yeah, I'm Dennis Cooper. I'm from Louisville, Kentucky, where I live with my wife and four kids.

5:21And in 2019, I got into podcasting and created a podcast called Culpable. we covered the suspicious death of Christian Andreacchio, a 21 year old in Moradia, Mississippi. We did a second season out of a small town, Brown County, Ohio. We covered the case of a young pregnant mother of one who was killed while driving on the highway headed to her father's birthday. And from there, we've launched our case review series where we are covering more cases in less episodes. So just doing one episode per case. And then I'm in the middle of working on season three of Cold War right now. So we're here at CrimeCon, an entire conference dedicated to the genre of true crime.

6:06So I'm curious from each one of you, how long have you been a true crime fan? Like, what was that journey like for you? For me, I mean, I think the moniker true crime has kind of become something more representative of like a larger genre that's existed for a while. I mean, going back to Unsolved Mysteries, I mean, I used to love that as a kid. It scared the shit out of me. But my mom let me watch Unsolved Mysteries. And I've always been fascinated by things that are unsolved, things that we can't explain or figure out. I mean, you could go back to like, again, Agatha Christie book. It's just the suspense of not knowing.

6:52And just to me, that bothers me. And it gets this little curiosity bug in my brain going. And so for me, it's always been about solving a mystery and telling that story. And so in 2016, when I made Up and Vanish season one, I took a new approach and I made a podcast where I was going to personally go investigate an unsolved missing persons case, which at the time I had no real business doing. And, um, that's really ultimately why I'm here today was just kind of taking a leap out of my comfort zone. And, you know, for those who don't know me personally, or like what would maybe drive me, it never really is about the, the nitty gritty true crime parts of it.

7:40It's not about the forensics. It's not about, you know, these are all interesting things to me, but it's, to me, it's about who the hell did it or what, what happened in like that part of it drives me. And as I've kind of grown into my shoes a little bit more, I've just tried to push the envelope more there because I feel like it's more authentic to me. And it's what I have more control over. If I, if there's a suspect to a murder case and I know where they live, well, I could go knock on their door and so that's kind of where i'm at but true crime is i think a little bit different to everybody but i think at the end of the day i think that people are curious they want to know why people do fucked up shit and they want to learn from it and it's okay to have a little bit of a morbid curiosity i think if you don't have that then maybe you're one of the people who's killing people out here.

8:34I agree with that. He's like, touche. Pretty much all of that is true for me. I've always been really inquisitive. I've been very curious. Status untraced in the disappearance of Justin Alexander Shetler for me was Justin himself was so fascinating. He was this guy that gave up everything he owned and already lived all these crazy, adventurous lives of being, you know, crossing the Himalayas in flip-flops or becoming a monk or living with indigenous tribes. And that's unique to you though, right? Because not every true crime story, you felt connected to the way he lived his life. Well, in the fact that I had always aspired to do things like that, not that I had done things like that.

9:17So to me, it was kind of like that childhood hero that I grew up wanting to be, you know? And the mystery of what happened to him was so fascinating. There so many different things that were just so odd about his disappearance that I immediately felt like I had to know what happened. I think that's, that it was my draw to true crime originally. I guess still is too. Yeah. I've always been into true crime as far as I can remember. Um, my parents were both into it. So it was always on the TV growing up. Like forensic files and stuff or what? Yeah. Forensic files more, uh, they were more like dateline 2020, you know, those specials uh when they're on but friends look a little bit of forensic files unsolved mysteries like you mentioned one of my favorite shows to this day and i still i still re-watch them oh yeah great re-watch oh so good it's so good uh and then when i met my wife she was an even bigger true crime fan than i was so then all of a sudden i went from like watching sports at nighttime to like we'd fall asleep with like forensic files on the tv because you know it's just if that's what you want to watch um so it's just i've just always been around and always had an interest, but didn't anticipate doing a podcast about it.

10:24But it's like you both hit on, like, you find that story and your heart's just in it and you're just so, you know, you're just so wrapped up in it and just want to get answers. Like, just want to make sense of this problem. Like Payne said, I think we all have a little bit of a problem solver in us and want to fix injustices and things that we see wrong. um so yeah you know doing that was was really cool because it was something i think i always envisioned was like being a creative and maybe even specifically in the true crime space but i didn't put in the work to do it i didn't go to school for it i didn't like try to go make it happen it just like how do you do that right i don't know exactly right yeah just do it you just do it nike you know yeah but you know the stars aligned and here i am so i'm curious like why Why podcasting?

11:12And Payne, specifically for you, well, I guess, Liam, you too, because you both come from more of a film background. So why is podcasting the platform that you were like, yeah, I'm going to do this and I'm going to take it to podcasting, and I feel like that's the right way? I was at the point in my life and career where I was dead broke and I just finished binging Making a Murderer and The Jinx when they had just came out. and like to this day they're there's still landmark legendary like premium documentary true crime series and i just had this like stupid thought at the time i was like i mean i couldn't stop thinking about the cases and i was like how does one like become the person who does this like like did they just say hey i'm gonna go do this how did they even like put together the resources to do that at all and that puzzled me and so actually i never even said this before but early on there you know i used to watch id channel too and there were some shows that no offense uh i thought were pretty trash um but i still watched them and and kind of liked them and i was like maybe i should email like some of the producers of this not telling them that their show is trash but more like hey um you know can i work on this show or how could i don't know how could i get involved no response uh and then i was on a road trip with my friend to louisville actually and serial had just came out and and the first five episodes of the podcast serial were out he's like dude you gotta listen to this show and i'm like okay what is it he says audio shows I was like, man, I don't like audio, radio shit.

12:56He's like, just trust me. And so we binged it on the way up there. Got the episode five. We're there for like three days. And then a new one had come out, and we got to binge that on the way back. And then the rest was just me at my house waiting for Sarah Koenig to upload that last one. And, you know, culmination of events, a few months later, I kind of went back to the drawing board on, okay, if I wanted to make a true crime show, what's my entry point? And I was like, you know what? I never imagined how in like enthralled and compelled I could be by an audio show the way that Serial season one did for me.

13:39And so it told me that that was possible. Thankfully, I've been like an editor of video stuff for a majority of my life. And so I just had the crazy idea of, you know what? fuck it. I'm going to go find a case in my home state and go put together a true crime podcast about it. And I don't know what it should sound like. And I'm just going to make it sound like, I guess, whatever I would want to listen to as someone who didn't like listening to audio shows. Right. And that was just the basic premise. And then, you know, that evolved over time. But that's how I got into it. And I think something audio only like allows you to do that video doesn't?

14:21Because I think something that Alex and I did a lot when working on Status and Traces, we would constantly go, okay, but why is it better as audio than as video? And the thing that we kept on coming back to is, okay, you're most likely doing something when you're listening to a podcast. You're driving, you're working, you're doing something typically. So how can you put that person or put yourself in their head so they're in the same adventure kind of as you are, but you're, you're with it. And the same way that you read a book and sometimes you add context to the pages, I think adding that audio, you get to hear all of these interviews and things like that, but you actually get to feel like you're there with them in a way that you, you're not watching it on TV.

15:06You're kind of there with them. So that was, that was kind of one of the things that made us lean back into it while creating the, you know, the podcast itself. I don't know. That's not necessarily why I chose a podcast. I think I chose a podcast because of circumstances the same way that I fell into doing this in the first place. So did I. Yeah, exactly. I think it was more circumstantial than just anything else. But I think that there is something to podcasts having a special edge over, not necessarily edge, but it's in its own medium for a reason. And I think that there's a true crime docuseries, I think, fit very well into that because you are interviewing people.

15:40You are generally trying to solve something and you can really be drawn in and pulled with that in that way yeah yeah there's something like attractive about podcasting like it just it just feels more feasible i don't come from film but maybe you all can speak on it but i just imagine like getting into podcasting has to be immensely easier than film i could be wrong though that's also true that was also one of the reasons i mean like coming from a filmmaking background i'm like i don't want to raise money to do this i went to Best Buy. I googled podcast starter pack. Didn't exist. Seeing them now, I'm just like, lucky bastards.

16:20Because there was just not any sort of guidance online for how to get started. But it turns out it was just very simple. It was just a microphone and something to record into. And I was like, oh, duh. But now they make it all neat. And it looks more. But, yeah, it's even easier to get into it now probably. But, yeah, I think it's cool for me because, honestly, I probably don't make culpable unless I listen to Up and Vanish. I always say I'm the same way. I listen to Serial. I still vividly remember binging it, and it got me into it. It was the first, like, oh, this is cool. I didn't even know that they did these types of stories.

16:58The ones I'm watching late at night, they do these in audio only. I'm interested in that. That's cool. And then, what was it, a year later when the first season of Up and Vanish came out? Yeah, about so. Yeah, and I listened to that and was just enthralled. And to hear somebody who openly is like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to give this a try, it was encouraging for somebody like me who was even considering that as an idea of like, hey, maybe I could do this too, actually. And so that was very much a blueprint in a lot of ways and kind of helped jumpstart that idea of like, I could do something like this.

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19:05Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Yeah, Payne, I'm sure you get that feedback a lot from listeners. Like, just the connection that people can have with you because you're there. Your mindset is, like, I'm diving in. I'm digging in. I want to know. But also, I don't want to put on this front that, like, I know exactly what I'm doing because this is my first time. Tell us a little bit more about that. What is that process like for you of trying something new while also not being an expert coming into it? If you're watching a movie, a lot of times it's with your friends or your significant other on the couch, and you're not both wearing headphones, right?

19:42So I think there's oftentimes, I don't know the statistics, but there's a more personal side of, you know I'm listening to this person talk about whatever this unsolved crime into my ears and you start to follow along and in like I've done the same thing with other shows I felt that way with Sarah Koenig I don't know her but I I bet you you know if I ever met her I'd be like oh my god you know I feel like I know you and she's like no you don't and I'm like I know but I think that part of podcasting is special and like is especially in the true crime genre feeling like you're at the edge of the seat or right there with like an investigative journalist who you know it feels like you're a part of it in a way that you can't really recreate many other places.

20:46And so I think that that's, and I didn't even really know that going into making up and vanished. I kind of realized that after making episodes and realizing how they felt and sounded to me and sort of just general feedback. And I just kind of leaned more into, you know, peeling the curtain back and, and it being okay that I'm, I don't have the credentials. maybe that's what's kind of interesting about this yeah you know this whole thing could bomb but at least it was authentic yeah and I really was only making a podcast back then as a stepping stone to try to do something bigger in my mind like a tv show or a documentary I didn't think that there was any business or money to be made in podcasting I thought cereal was just a really cool thing that happened and that was the end i'm gonna use this as a uh just a blanket blueprint for how i would do a podcast go do my own and maybe that's my proof of concept to sell to the the money guy that hey pick me i want to do it uh one of those id channel shows that i hate you know that i emailed you about you know that i emailed you about you never got back to me I do think that having it uniquely starting as an amateur and going into it, again, makes it more relatable.

22:15It's just like, have you ever seen Don't Fuck With Cats? Yeah. Yeah, that to me was more relatable because none of them had any business doing that, which then leads to finding something, which is unique. I think that sums up the nature of this industry generally. What do you think? Because I look at Serial and Up and Vanish, and then it's funny to hear you say that you were inspired by both of them. And I feel like that's just the natural evolution of how things go, which it's cool to hear you say that. But what was it for you, though? like I guess just um dipping your toe in the water it was uh you hit on something a minute ago that made me think of something you were talking about um like once you got into it like that perspective changes and I I didn't I didn't know if I would actually enjoy doing it like I just sure it was more like a challenge like I always say it was on my bucket list like after I listened to cereal it was like on my bucket list right I was like I'm gonna do that someday and like I said I give a lot of credit to you because listening to you, I mean, Sarah Koenig, Sarah Koenig, like she's, I mean, she's kind of a big deal in this space, you know?

23:36Where are you by the way, Sarah? She's not here. She probably had better engagements. But, but you, on the other hand, getting into it, we're just an amateur. This guy's just fucking normal. I'm like, this guy has no idea what he's talking about. This guy ain't doing shit. Like, I don't, I could do better. But no, I get it though. But yeah, it just made it seem like, okay, that's, that's doable. Like, I can definitely do that. But at the same time, I didn't necessarily expect to enjoy doing it because none of my career up to that point was anything remotely close to that field. I mean, I worked in healthcare and telecommunications, a bunch of random shit.

24:07It could have easily been the opposite of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it didn't really make sense at the same time to even be trying it. I shouldn't have been the one doing it, right? But I found something I loved. You get in the weeds of it, and all of a sudden you realize, wait, actually, I'm enjoying this. This is the most fun I've ever had doing work before and the most meaning that I've put into work. There's never a dull moment, right? Never a dull moment. There may be a lot of stressful moments, but it's not dull. It's stressful. There's definitely purpose, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it challenges yourself in ways that maybe you never had before, right?

24:37Right. That and then, like, there's a responsibility that you immediately start to feel to the victim's families and finding answers. There's a lot of things that just start to, like, that's something different. It forces some reflection a little bit, too, right? Oh, 100%. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So what are the things that keep you up at night, I guess, as a creator or podcaster? I mean, are they more like process driven? Like I got an episode, it's coming out in a day, I'm falling behind, I got to get locked into the edit. Or is it more story driven and like wrestling internally with, you know, what makes the cut?

25:06What, you know, how much do I put into, you know, my own bias or thought process? Like what are the things that are kind of stressing you or keeping you up at night? There's been an evolution of different things that have done that. But I would say just like more recently and more, I guess, like more like six, seven years in the things that bother me the most or keep me up at night, which, you know, is not always the case is shit. Like, why is this person being like that? Like, why? Why are they talking to me like that? What do I not understand about that from some human nature psychology thing?

25:49Like, or, you know, why would this person do this if this is what happened? And how do I bypass the obvious, uh, fuck you, I don't want to talk to you. How do I get there? Because if I can't figure out a way to do that, then I'm just retelling a horrible tragedy. Right. And I don't have any genuine interest in doing that at all. And so if I ever feel like that's all I can do, then I'm probably out. Yeah. And so that will keep me up at night. And I lead with that. And it opens up all these other doors. And so much is out of your control. but you know I want to have a pulse and a like a thumb on the persons of interest because most of the time in any cases I've looked into that's what the police haven't been doing so if I'm going to go cover this and really do it or or if it's going to sound like that then I'd rather get better sleep at night knowing that I really am doing that.

27:02And you can think whatever if I'm really am or not, or if you would have done it differently, that's fine. But I go to sleep at night knowing that the shit's fucking hard. And I did all that I could. And I will learn from that and get better the next day. But I really want to find the bad guy. Because that's what the family is telling me. They're not thinking that like, I'm going to get too scared or like uncomfortable at some point and say, sorry, got to stop here. That's what mine would be. I think the thing that I fixated on, I'm just going to do just status and trace because I have one show to experience on.

27:38Great examples in there. Yeah, I think the thing that I fixated on more than anything else was beyond like, how are we going to do this? Because everything was like difficult finding, you know, searching in another country is not easy and getting into another country during COVID was not easy and all of those things. But was finding a way to accurately tell the story and the findings while also honoring Justin's legacy. That was like, I constantly, like I would go to, I'd be like, am I doing a good job of that always? Because that for me was the thing that I constantly was thinking about. It's simple and sweet, honestly.

28:11I think you answered it. I think that's how you do it. You have to constantly check yourself. You have to remind yourself. You don't just like say like day one, I got it figured out. And then day 365, still be in that same mindset. that. You fucked up if that's the case. You got to be constantly like, okay, reshaping, re-evolving, look in the mirror. How would they perceive this? I mean, you have a lot of experience with that. Yeah. I mean, truthfully, to answer your question, not much keeps me up at night these days as far as work goes. Because that ambience, that works, right? No, it's just like you said, you mature into the role, you grow, you learn how to work-life balance, but there's always going to be those things that kind of nag at you.

28:59For me, it's usually more like beating myself up, like, damn, I should have asked them that question earlier. Or like, you know, did I sound like an idiot when I said the wrong name earlier? Like really, really stupid stuff like that is honestly what I get hung up on. It's kind of weird. But no, for the most part, like I enjoy what I do. And now where I'm at, like, it's just so much more of a breeze. It's heavy at times. It can be taxing investing in a case, but like compared to making season one, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I didn't have the resources I have now. Like, I probably shaved years off my life working season one.

29:33Oh, 100%. You know, yeah. You know, and you probably did too. Absolutely. You took four years to make your show. So I can't even imagine. Four years, bro. You got to times it four years. You might have lost 10. Yeah. But no, like now it's, you know, I got a good team, good support system. I've matured into the role. So, I mean, truthfully, not a lot keeps me up at night now. but you never forget those things that you felt dumb about do you no no they i mean i've because also there's no take backs usually yeah there's no redos yeah the ambience fix it at night i think i think about all day long though i'm like damn i that sounded so stupid when i said that they're probably gonna hate me yeah i think that's just a piece of the yeah yeah yeah that's it yeah that's gonna be perfect that's gonna be how that is you're like yeah I'm not cutting it.

30:20So you all are digging into stories that are really hard and can be very dark. So I'm curious, like the idea of like a moral compass, like what does that mean to each one of you? And how do you bring that into your creative process? I mean, if you polled every single person in this building, they'd all give a slightly different answer. Maybe it's just 0.1 % different of what their moral compass is, what their belief system is, what their religion is. what they believe in. And so I think that's person to person. For me, the easiest way to always kind of just stay in a straight line is remembering one thing only.