What the Body Reveals

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1:41Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is intended for mature audiences and may include topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical and sexual violence, rape and murder. The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey. Thank you so much for listening.

2:27From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey.

2:38I'm Mike Rooney, and I've been helping Payne create Up and Vanished since season two. I usually prefer to be behind the scenes, but Payne is currently dealing with some things, and he really wanted to get these results out. So, here goes nothing. For this episode, we wanted to follow up with our polygraph expert, Jessica, and go over all of the charts from John's polygraph test. This was an interesting day. I was actually in the room next door with the door closed, hiding so that I could record the test with a hidden mic and not affect his answers in any way. We wanted to ensure that John felt comfortable and that he was alone in the room with her.

3:22while maintaining everyone's safety. Anyways, here's our follow-up with Jessica. Normally, when I test somebody, you know, a real test, not for some TV show or something, we do what we call a throwaway test. Before we actually do the test, we'll say, these are the questions we're going to ask. So that they're not jumping with surprise. So I did a total of three charts. You've got to remember, a polygraph machine does not directly detect lies, but rather measures the physiological responses to questions, which are then interpreted by the examiner. It's known worldwide as a lie detector test. It actually doesn't determine someone's life.

4:06We're reading physiological responses to questions. And then those are interpreted by me or whoever the examiner is. for the accuracy of the interpretation and the effectiveness of polygraph tests in detecting deception. I mean, obviously, that's still, you know, an ongoing debate, but they use them in law enforcement agencies across the U.S. You can't become a police officer without passing a polygraph test. And 20 % of the candidates fail. So we know that they are effective, but you have to remember that these are physiological responses.

4:46So here's the thing. With his breathing, there were questions that I asked, and he would almost, like, hold his breath for a second. When it flatlines, that's also a sign of deception. And his blood pressure would shoot up. You can elaborate later. Like, you just have to answer yes or no right when that question is fired off to you. That gives the immediate response. any delays or any movement after that we're taking that first 15 seconds and that's what we're measuring that's what we're looking at on the polygraph he said did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding florence's disappearance he said no that showed he was telling the truth no deception was indicated So in other words, did you tell the truth about law enforcement, about everything you'd ever go?

5:42He said no, and that one showed deception. First he said yes, and then he said no. But that was on the last one he said no, and that did show he was telling the truth. He said yes, and then he said no. But when he said no, it showed he was telling the truth. It showed he was being forthright and honest. so did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance no that right there sets him up for everything because he said no and that showed he wasn't being deceptive so in other words he's held back on a lot of things probably with law enforcement and and with you guys as well because he already said no he didn't tell law enforcement everything he knows about Florence's disappearance.

6:40Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? And he said, no, he's admitting already that he's holding back, that he didn't tell everything. That showed he was telling the truth. His body had no reaction regarding deception because he was clearly saying, no, I didn't tell them everything. He knows more than he's willing to say. Then he also was asked, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? That also sowed deception because he answered no. But the problem is it's complete conflict with the other question.

7:25did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? No. So he's saying, no, I didn't tell them everything. And that showed he was telling the truth, right? So this other question, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? When he says, no, it showed deception. And you could almost understand that it's going to show deception because in the previous question, he already said he didn't tell law enforcement everything about Florence's disappearance. The other one about, have you ever had sexual contact with Florence?

8:03Oh, peel up. He said no, and he was like really adamant. His physiological responses in his body exploded.

8:16So not only was it just the skin conductor, but the blood pressure and the breathing all just exploded on the chart. So I don't know what he did. I don't know if he had sex. I don't know if he had sex and it was consensual or not consensual. I don't know if he touched her. We don't know any of this. But we do know that when he was asked that question, this was probably the most dominant question regarding his reaction and these physiological changes in his body. So everything on the chart exploded. His breathing, his blood pressure, and the GSR, the galvanized skin response, the skin conductivity.

9:03It showed deception. Because remember, we're measuring physiological changes in his body with these things hooked up to him. the breathing apparatus the skin conductivity those around his fingertips and with the blood pressure cuff on his arm but this one was the most dominant of everything that was asked of him so again we don't know if he actually had sex with her we don't know if he did if it was consensual or not but the question was have you ever had sexual contact with florence so you know it It doesn't have to be sex. It's sexual contact was the question that pain had given me. And when he was asked that, his body exploded.

9:51And he said no, and he was adamant about it, but his body exploded. So something occurred between them, but we don't know what, because we weren't there. But it definitely showed deception. Is Florence Oak P. Luck alive? he was like squirming on this one remember yes or no questions he has to answer with his mouth only with no movement so any movement can show deception because that raises things it can raise your blood pressure it could change your breathing and it can also shoot microscopic changes to sweat to the fingertips so on this one he was like well i don't know i don't know how to answer that blah and he was squirming.

10:37He said he didn't know, right? So that right there is an indication of deception. I mean, is she alive? He wasn't able to answer that. Then there was, do you know what happened to Florence? And he said no, and there was deception indicated. Definitely the strongest one for me, My favorite out of all of these physiological changes are the winds and sweat because some people can control their breathing a little. Even blood pressure, you know, some people can be calm. And I think he started out thinking because so much time had passed, it's been like five years, right? My feeling regarding him and watching his responses to these was I believe that he felt like so much time has passed, he would easily pass a polygraph.

11:29I truly believe that.

11:48We'll see you next time.

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13:11You heard all of the things he was saying to me before we even started the test. He protects women and he's, you know, he was just trying to go overboard on his innocence and what a good guy he is. And Payne had forewarned me about him. when we asked do you know what happened to florence deception was indicated when he said no so he definitely knows more than he's saying also are there other people involved in her disappearance that was the other one that he squirmed on you know he didn't know how to answer that so obviously this is a sign of deception did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

13:53He said no. That showed he was telling the truth. Right there, he's saying that he's holding back information. And then the other one was, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? And that one showed deception because she obviously said no. So based on the federal guidelines and readings of this polygraph test, it clearly shows deception overall with the exception of did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance he said no that showed he was telling the truth that right there tells you that this guy is holding back but based on the guidelines on all the other questions it did show deception I mean I believe he definitely knows more than he's willing to say and he's definitely not being forthright about it.

14:54He's, I think he's possibly a bit of a narcissist. There's three different types of narcissism and he falls into a certain category of narcissism. And I think he definitely does not believe his own lies. His body reacted so dominant and sharp. And I have a feeling that he has probably changed his answers. If he was asked these by law enforcement or anything, he's probably changed his answers with them many times as well. But I think that he has a problem telling the truth. He will not be forthright. I think he knows more. He knows more than he's telling. So, yeah, he's overall, the guy is very deceptive.

15:46And such a long time has passed. Five years is a long time. And his body still reacted. On the outside, he acted very, yeah, I want to clear my name. Let's get this over with. But I believe that this guy truly believed that so much time had passed, he would be able to pass a polygraph. no matter what the questions were. His body told a different story. The only question that he told the truth on was when I asked him, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? And he said no. That showed he was telling the truth. Everything else showed signs of deception.

16:39That was only everything else showed deception from him. His heart rate, his blood pressure, his respiration, and his skin conductivity, all, they didn't just fluctuate. They shot up so much. That happens when a person is stressed or, you know, excited. And his body was doing that. After five years, that's what his body was doing. you know when he was asked these questions which is signs of deception i asked questions in between to keep to keep a baseline so i had some questions in between like have you ever eaten a mcdonald's because that shows what his body does when he's telling the truth right and then you ask a relevant question after that and then his body would explode so he definitely had very serious signs of deception he was being deceptive this guy is um i think he's deceptive i think he knows a lot more than he knows i think that he thought that after all this time he truly believed that he would passed this easily.

18:02And it just, it didn't happen. He passed one question. And that was, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? When he said no, that showed it was telling the truth. So, out of these questions, that was the only one he passed.

18:23If you or I were hooked up to this polygraph instrument, And we know that we were telling the truth about all the questions that were asked. I can tell you this. When I passed my polygraph from the law enforcement agency I was with, I didn't get up and say, I hope I passed or did I pass? I knew that I'd pass. I didn't ask them, hey, how'd I do? Did I pass? Because I already knew I was telling the truth. if somebody would have told me hey you didn't pass i would have said then your your machine is broken your instrument needs to be recalibrated but why would an innocent person ask hey so did i pass would an innocent person you can ask your your listeners if if you told the truth on a polygraph test why would you have to ask did i pass so we asked you did you rob the bank last week and you said no you wouldn't turn around and ask did i pass because you know you didn't rob the bank right i mean stress and anxiety are what is measured and i believe that you can't isolate them completely but you also can't control your internal physiological reactions in your body your body's gonna do what it's gonna do

19:52Now you've heard the full polygraph test, the examiner's take, and Payne's working on what comes next. But now you know what we know as far as the results. From here, we're going to pivot a little bit. Not that long ago, another tip came in regarding Joseph's truck. This individual reached out to Payne to let him know that someone close to her saw someone else in Joseph's truck around the time he went missing. She saw someone in the same area where Joseph's vehicle was parked. And she thought that it was strange that he ended up missing. I'm probably one of the only people that she's told. I asked her, well, why haven't you said anything?

20:41And she got quiet. I'm a little bit nervous to say anything to her because so much bad things have happened to people in Nome. And I believe that she doesn't want to get involved because maybe she could be targeted. She's the only one with that kind of information. And I told her, I said, you're the only one who knows. You should say something. And she got quiet. I think she was afraid to get involved. This person ended up missing. And I said, so you saw him out there and driving a vehicle? And she totally denied everything.

21:26I want to say his name is Piscoya. The only person that they were talking about was him. She saw him. She saw him out there. And I think... Who's him? Jake.

21:55We've heard a lot of stories about Joseph's truck moving, other people driving it, To the point where it seems like it was almost teleporting that weekend. It's messy. It's hard to know which tip to follow. But we've never stopped talking to witnesses who may or may not have seen the truck moving that weekend. Sometime last year, Payne called Nick Gray, Kim's ex-husband.

22:23Hey, this is Payne. I don't know. Okay. Are you aware of the disappearances of Florence Okpialik and Joseph Baldaris? Joseph Baldaris, other than what's been on the news, that's all I know. Just whatever was reported. But anything else I can help you with? I remember who you are now. I don't need to talk about anything with you at this point. We're done talking. Thank you.

23:06Your call has been forwarded to voicemail. The person you're trying to reach is not available. At the tone, please record your message. But then something unexpected happened. Nick's sister called Payne, and what she said flipped everything.

23:24Hello? Hey, is this Nick? Speaking correct. Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about Joseph's truck. Oh, is this that, uh, what's his name? Doing a, uh... The podcast? The podcast. Yes. Where do I start? Um, what about his truck? Like, what do you move? I was told that she thinks that you moved his truck. I didn't touch his truck, no. Why would I? I don't even know the guy. I wouldn't even feel comfortable touching it. Why would she say something like that, you think? You would have to ask her. I don't know. Is that surprising to you? I haven't talked to my sister in a while, so... Did you know Kevin?

24:15I knew Kevin, yeah. I know Kevin. Correct. I used to be married to Kimberly Piscoya. at the time she was my girlfriend. We were driving on the council road, heading back to Nome, and I noticed Joseph Baldurse's truck. I seen Joseph Baldurse in the car. I couldn't recall who was with him. I don't recall. And they were heading towards council. What day would that have been? Well, man, it's been so long, I don't even know. But it was that weekend he went missing? It was before he went missing, though. That Saturday or Sunday, we took a ride towards Council, right where his truck was parked. I noticed it right there.

25:12As we passed that truck, we ended up stopping at East Fork because there was a herd of muskox at East Worth Bridge. One of the Longatown twins was underneath the bridge in the river. Mikey and John. I don't know what they were doing. I don't know if they were fishing or whatnot. And then we went about our way. The bridge is a little bit further past right where Joseph Pogars' truck was parked. The bridge is, I don't know, about half a mile from where his truck was parked, I'd say.

25:58I don't know too much about it. I tried to stay out of it. My main focus, my main focus, because I have kids with Kimberly in the square, my main focus is my three kids. Were these kids of yours the ones that were supposed to be on the beach with Christine that day? As we were driving out of town Saturday, I didn't notice my kids on the beach, but I wasn't really paying attention. At the time, me and Kim were having difficulty time focusing on what's in the best interest for our kids. Today, now, we communicate very well for the best interest of our kids. Right. You said that you saw someone in Joseph's truck with him.

26:56Yes, yes. Male or female? Yes. Oh, definitely a male. I just don't know who. I can't remember who. Even my current wife does remember me talking about it. I just can't picture the face. I don't know who it was. When all that was going on, my communication with the Piscuea family is very, very minimal. Payne hit a brick wall when he tried to call Nick back, so he came up with a plan. Hello? How are you doing? I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing pretty good. Do you have five minutes? Yes, I do. I just called your brother about five minutes ago, and he shut me down immediately. From my perspective, it looks like he has something to hide or he knows a particular detail.

27:54He knows something to see. Every time I ask him, it was always a cold shoulder from him. And him and Kim were still married at the time when Joseph was missing. He's not being truthful about that because every time I ask him about it, you know, when it was up, He always gave me that cold shoulder and not gave me that. He's not going to talk to me. These were his words that he would say to me. I'm not going to get into this with you. He knows that I could get it out of him. But when he tells me that, I don't want to interfere. You know what they have going on because their babies, their kids are thriving.