What AI Can't Replace: The Skill Every Founder Needs Now! I Oliver Yonchev

0:00And then you have another world which is owned by the machines. Mass personalization at scale where the algorithm serves you what you want. And it is conceivable that your world is fully personalized in real time based on your wants, needs and desires. What do you think does it take to stand out in this new era of media? Do the things you would never do in the past. Particularly if you're young, you should pick the biggest possible challenges. Ladies and gentlemen, by way of introduction, Oliver, when we look at your life through all the different ventures that you went through and also the massive technological shifts that are happening today, what is the most important topic that you think we should talk about?

0:46Embracing change. You hear a lot of people talk about the world is changing, the pace of change is accelerating. and I think although that has probably always been true certainly for many decades I think now we all feel it viscerally if you consider what's happened in the last two years with technology and how we're potentially having to rewrite rule books question all conventional norms you know you have these extremes that are happening around us and I know I certainly have become desensitized to the wonderful kind of updates we're seeing. And you're seeing technology titans have to innovate or die.

1:31Literally, people that you thought would never be displaced are shipping products at an insane level to survive. So yeah, look, there's a few elements with that. Change is intimidating. It's scary. It's easy to ignore. But it can also be exhilarating. It can be a place where you can fast track your career, your momentum, your life. So I'm the biggest believer if you see a wave coming into shore, instead of fighting it, probably try and ride that wave. Yeah. And what do you think does it take to be open to embrace this change, what you just described, instead of like being scared by it, which is probably the very first intuitive reaction?

2:17Yeah, look, when anything changes, you have two choices. One, you can ignore, say it's not happening, bury your head, fear it, be crippled by all of those things. The other choice is you can lean in. I think the number one quality you have to have is humility. It's very hard if you've developed skills in an area and then you have this narrative that I'm going to be replaced or a computer can do the thing I'm capable of better than me, I think it requires a level of humility to lean into change. And then the second thing I'd probably say is just an obsession and curiosity over shiny new toys. Because the reality is most hype cycles, whenever the world, particularly now we live in a world geared by algorithms, where the most extreme opinions are propagated into all our minds, I tend to believe that in that world we will get a lot of things wrong.

3:23This is the next big thing. This is the next big thing. This is dead. This is changing. And two truths can, there can be two truths at the same time. One, lots of these predictions will be wrong, but some of them will be truly transformative. and underpinning that my my I suppose my favorite I suppose my favorite quote in in this kind of modern generative AI age it actually came from Warren Buffett and he said AI might just change absolutely everything everything we've come to know to be true apart from one thing people innately people are the same and do you think it makes sense to try to understand what are the things that are going to change and what are the things that probably will not end up having a huge impact on people, on society at large?

4:18No one can predict the future, but I think you can, from a first principle standpoint, work through what might be impacted. And I think there was a moment for me, I remember watching a few years ago an interview with Sam Altman, and this was at the probably chat gpt3 had just been released so there was this new momentum and you kind of had the generative era starting and you know there was a lot of skepticism around the time and sam altman came out and said let let me how much is the world going to change and he said okay well let me lay out the context there are two primary economic costs in the world number one energy that's everything resources to produce anything and the other is intelligence that's human ingenuity everything we see around of is a byproduct of intelligence and he said instead of answering the question he just went what if the cost of one of those things goes to zero what changes well fundamentally the fabric of society changes yeah so um yeah how consequential this will be um i i think that's a first principle thought i think a lot of things are going to change but if you hold the second truth that people remain the same we still have the same wants needs and desires we're the fixed thing in this equation um i think it allows you then to think about well okay um where should i invest my energy where should i invest my time um so yeah I think it's interesting that also the example that you brought from Sam Altman, that actually, like if you reduce one to zero, what happens is also that the other side sparks like the energy.

6:12I mean, it's just a technological shift that then energy will become probably a scarcity. And Oliver, what is your backstory? So how did you first get into touch with like media and also like now talking about AI? So not only from a consumer perspective, but using it much more as a tool yourself. Yeah, so my career has probably spanned about 15 years, a little longer, actually. I started as a musician. I was a drummer. That was the start of my career. I say I'm a failed indie rocker. I then went on to study university music and marketing, music and promotion. I was exposed to marketing, kind of fell in love with marketing.

6:58It's for me, understanding people is a foundation that every marketeer needs to have. And very much it's the intersection between that and business, psychology and business. So I found it interesting. It was a gateway into a new world. I joined a large media owner on a graduate scheme. So I had a traditional corporate career path. Did that for four years. and then I one day went on to Facebook and I saw a TED talk by Stephen Bartlett and he was talking about building a multi-million dollar business knowing nothing about business and that spoke to me as a he was a few a few years younger than me so I reached out to him just full serendipity and said hey inspiring inspiring seeing what you're doing keep it up my man that was it he asked me to meet him um and at the time the business was gaining a bit of momentum it was a business called social chain it'd been around for approximately about a year um and then i joined that business i joined him on that journey and that was five years of my life we went through an ipo um i i moved to the us with steve we built out the us business um and that was a very interesting period for me because I always describe it as um entrepreneur school I was thrown into situations that I wasn't qualified to be doing doing corporate M &A and you know um a lot of things they were a lot of firsts during that period of my life um and a big milestone in my career was moving to the U.S.

8:37I never had any ambition to to be there yeah um but when I did I I recognized that if you can make it there, you have this sense you can make it anywhere. So it certainly raised my aspirations in many respects. And then after five years, that journey ended, exited that business and started a new company called Flight Story with Stephen. Did that for about three and a half years. And I had an opportunity to sell my stake in the business. yeah um and i'd kind of worked with steve for almost a decade and i was ready to do the solo act yeah and after you know 10 plus years of reflecting on where my skills are what i'm good at what i enjoy i felt that a venture studio would be the right path for me um i'm very romantic about the start of an organization.

9:36I selfishly want to be able to repeat the early days of a company over and over again. So now I launched a studio called Co-Created with three business partners. We invest particularly in creative and marketing startups or creative and marketing founders. And I'll explain because it links to the second part of your question. So my foundational belief when it comes to the world of investing, particularly venture, I think the model is broken. The model is broken because we've conditioned companies to become addicted to the wrong things. Infinite scale, endless money, pump money into something until it wins.

10:25I think that's a dangerous trap. I think founders made bad decisions. And we're now moving into an era because of technology, because of AI, where individuals and small teams are now capable of so much more. They don't have the dis-economies of scale. You can augment an individual with AI applications and systems and processes, and they can be a 100-person team. That is unthinkable. They can create disproportionate economic value because of technology. So I think that throws the traditional venture model and what we've come. You don't need endless capital. I think the second thing is in a world where it gets easier and easier to create technology.

11:09The barrier has been lowered, but that also means that new skills will rise. It's ironic that it's easier to create technology. It's harder to stand out. So I believe that marketeers, creatives, people that understand how to connect with people, to communicate, that obsess over the customer, which marketeers do, I think they will have advantages in the future. So again, backing that sector. And the third component is very much about services are now viable, scalable businesses. So I've built many service companies over the years. And if you want to scale really big, you need to hire lots of people.

11:57That's no longer the case, which means you break out of the traditional economic restraints, which actually makes tech enabled services quite attractive for venture. because they're less capital intensive and now they have scalability without hiring hundreds thousands of people um there is a shadow to everything i just described you it felt a little um it felt a little unhuman i describe a world where we don't hire people so that's the the counterweight and my view is there there needs to be support structures and there needs to be businesses in place to help people guide them and support them on that independent journey.

12:46More and more entrepreneurs will be created over the next decade than any other time in history because of two things. One, need, desire, social pressure to control your own destiny and AI displacement. That is a real thing. Large organizations are resizing and it won't be as wildly abrupt. It will be attrition. Year after year after year, large companies getting smaller, using more technology to deliver their outcomes. And so you mentioned the barriers of building and starting a business is like getting much lower while distribution has become a lot harder. I think it's the counterpart of it.

13:32And what do you think, how will this development affect the media side of things? in a very material way. So I think we have two worlds when it comes to entertainment, media, creative. I think increasingly IP becomes more important. There's a lot of media that doesn't make anyone feel anything. You're not connected with it. You see it in the rise of fandom around streamers. Streamers are some of the most famous people on the planet that your parents have never heard of. It's because they're connected with an audience through live streaming, they're interacting, they're co-authoring. I think the same parallels exist in media.

14:15So on one hand, I think IP is going to matter more and more. It always has, but increasingly so. I think the second thing that is probably important to note around media is we need to be bonded by stories and we need to be bonded by big creative work. So I see a world where great creativity will truly sort of transcend and still bind us. That's great film, great entertainment. But then you have this whole middle ground, which is kind of commoditized and you have this niching down, this extreme personalization. And one of the, I suppose, promises of the generative era as it was coming in was mass personalization at scale.

15:02And we've already experienced that through social media. Your algorithms are different to mine. You're experiencing a different digital world than I am. But the difference in the generative era is that's being accelerated. That's being multiplied. And it is conceivable that your world is fully personalized in real time based on your wants, needs, and desires. So you have these two worlds. ip and big brand creative and media and things that all bonders the water cooler talk and then you have another world which is owned by the machines mass personalization at scale where the algorithm serves you what you want and serves you the things you didn't even know you needed yeah like thinking of those extremes is also again coming back to the beginning of talking about change is also a bit scary to think that everyone because it is living in their own hyper personal environment because then everybody just kind of consumes what they are supposed to consume and they don't get out of like their own their own world think of how that influences that already happens today by the way it's the reason the world is more polarized than ever the world is not binary it's not left and right it's nuanced but we find ourselves in these echo chambers just poor rocket for fuel on that with generative ai and um yeah we're gonna enter i've just recently watched black mirror the new series i don't know if you've seen it but um god we're entering a strange time i'll tell you that um and so based on the description that or like the ideas that you mentioned like what do you think does it take to stand out in like in this new era of media how does that look That's a big question.

16:55How did you stand out? Start from the first principle. What's the one thing that AI will find difficult to replace, to emulate you, your imperfections, your flaws, your vulnerabilities? When you have a rise in content and the ceiling gets raised, the bar gets raised, there's more, there's better. I think imperfection starts to be a real strength. These, you know, and one of the things that AI doesn't do well yet is it still finds it difficult to emulate flaws. It really does. It struggles to emulate flaws. It tries, but it kind of doesn't understand and i i watched a uh a keynote at an event i was speaking at from a neurologist and their perspective was speaking about the differences between machine learning and human learning okay and it was fascinating to kind of the conclusive point was the mechanisms of how we learn are more similar than dissimilar so this idea that machines we'll be able to do a lot of the things we can do even things that feel innately human creativity they're built on mechanisms that are quite logical and rational it's connecting the dots, it's taking inspiration from here and here, combining them looking at things through new perspectives etc etc however, what the conclusive point was machines really struggle to be imperfect.

18:40They struggle to be emotional. They can't be emotional. They can simulate emotion. They can't be. So everything that makes us probably gives us disadvantages in the old world might ironically give us advantages in the new world. So like, think of it. I'll give you an idea. This is practical. A lot of people use automations for sales. Yeah. And we now have a heightened sensitivity for automation. If you can't be bothered to send me a message, I can't be bothered to respond. That's the general theory of most people. And we're all bombarded with an ungodly amount of messages now. And my advice to anyone who's making automations, put some spelling mistakes in there.

19:24Deliberately make it, do the things you would never do in the past. It's so important to humanize everything. And if you want to be effective. So that's just one small example where human imperfection um will give you an advantage even if you are using technology it's uh it's funny that you mention it because i mean i'm from germany i guess you you uh will have noticed by now by the accent but um why i'm saying this is because sometimes i'm like writing a mail like run it through chat gbt and then i notice okay they are like like you know making it perfect like taking out all the the mistakes and everything and i'm like why well like like that's not me so actually i leave things as they are put them in no i mean they're not completely wrong but probably like they're just weird like you wouldn't you wouldn't say it in that way but i think also like that's that's uh basically my background right that's where i'm coming that goes against every german stereotype in the planet to accept imperfection thank you for saying that i'm happy to hear this um yeah and so uh oliva i got a quote for you which is from mark and reason it's funny that we talked about it before um it says the world is a very malleable place if you know what you want and you go for it with maximum energy drive and passion the world will often reconfigure itself around you much more quickly and easily than you would think have you ever experienced this yourself absolutely i i speak about this a lot with our founders really we're backing i literally i i sent a voice note to the guys and it's a quote that that i love that is not too dissimilar so there's two things i want to share to build on that naval did a wonderful podcast with chris williamson relatively recently and um one of the bits i loved was naval sort of stating the that true intelligence we talk about intelligence iq eq true intelligence has been able to get what you want happiness love wealth whatever it is that is by definition probably the truest form of intelligence are you capable of getting what you want um the second one and this is what i shared with some of our founders yesterday enlightenment begins when a wave realizes it's the ocean and it's such a poetic way of describing and i actually need to figure out who said that and when i heard it it just hit home and honestly the big i say this a lot a big part of our monday so co-created we we co-found companies with others so you can come to us with the seed of an idea and we will interrogate its stress steps that help build it like true co-founder support that's our point of difference from the rest of the ecosystem.

22:12It limits us in scale. We can't get involved in lots of things, but it means that we get to control our own destiny, our own outcomes. We're not passive investors. We're really hands-on. And what's interesting is my two observations is one of the best things we can give founders is stopping them fucking up, stopping them making mistakes. You inevitably will walk through. Number two is focus, giving them discipline and rigor, helping them stay focused on the right things. And sometimes you need an objective voice to be able to do that. That's either walked that path or has a more neutral temperament in the good and the bad.

22:49But the third and probably the most important thing we can give to founders is raise their aspirations. And I mean that is help them see what we see in them. And it's so true. If you want to go build a business, if you build a small business, it's really difficult. If you build a big business, it's really difficult. doesn't matter but one of them gives you a much greater return and it's particularly if you're young you should pick the biggest possible challenges because the chances are your first couple of businesses are not going to work so you may as well swing big um so yeah my belief i love that quote i i think it's true i'm not a believer of manifestation and um a lot of uh spirituality practices.

23:35But I will say the mind is a complex thing and it's very, very powerful. And at the root of that belief is self-fulfilling. Yeah. And what does it take to bend reality in that way? So, for instance, you said one of the things you can give to founders is raising their ambition. How do you do this? So there's small things you can do. Number two, you can be very, you can practice radical candor when someone's thinking small or obsessed on the wrong things. You can tell them very directly. The other is when they win, you can celebrate them. You can give them that support. You can show them a future that they can't see yet themselves.

24:19I talk about the few, I speak in five-year, 10-year blocks with our founders. I say, you cannot, I say, do develop these habits. And I'm really, I'm really hard on the guys, by the way. I say, develop these habits I wish I knew this many years ago and I've walked into walls for you and it can be on anything. It can be on how you market yourself. It can be around some discipline in the business. It can be about hiring. It can be how they experiment, whatever that thing is. I try and enforce habits and I tell them the compounding impact in five years of you doing this in a disciplined manner over and over again.

24:57and what's really interesting is that when this really lands is the momentum some of our founders are doing phenomenally well in a short space of time yeah and i've just seen how the results are now reaffirming their beliefs and their aspirations are rising and rising and rising so it's a combination of the macro saying big picture not getting caught up entirely in the weeds yeah And then the second part is obsessing over the detail and like really forming the habits that will lead to great outcomes over the next decade. So it's a combination of those two things. And ultimately, results have to come.

25:36I could tell you till the cows come home that you're going to achieve X, Y and Z. The reality is, if you don't start seeing results, you're not going to believe it. You never will. But the wonderful thing, there is this other force in the world. optimism is self-fulfilling and momentum is self-fulfilling when a business has momentum you get this sense that you can take on the world and that momentum won't always be there so i say to the guys be really impatient with this when we're winning go aggressive don't get complacent we go very aggressively and we move fast there will be times that we're way more difficult than this but when you have that momentum bottle it run at it yeah i love it and um one of your slung from co-created is co-founders first investors second uh how does it translate into like the actionable side of of the business well look i again it comes down to venture people think if you throw money at things it'll work i promise you that's not the case i've worked with hundreds of businesses over my career from the world's most successful companies to many emerging startups and You capitalize a business before they're ready and they will make shitty decisions.

26:52They will hire too many people. They will feel a sense. Constraint is actually a wonderful thing. Constraint as a founder will make you focus. It will mean you can't get distracted. It will mean that you have to be more inventive, more creative in how you find solutions and capture people's attention and deliver results. So I'm a big believer that what most people need isn't more money. Yes, we put money into businesses, but fundamentally what they need is like support. And I mean literal support to get over the... There's so many talented people that just can't take the leap into entrepreneurship because of...

27:36Not because of... There are some because of obviously circumstance, but a lot of people, it's psychological. and when we act as a co-founder and we get hands-on and we are involved in every decision it was something one of our founders said very early like we used to call ourselves uh venture capital or investors it was like you're just so not you're up with me till 3 a.m telling me why my website shit and redoing it for me like the call you know like that level of obsession and it's because genuinely we love it. We love what we do. We love building companies and I'll tell you on a selfish level, over my career, I've become a bit desensitized to good things and bad things happening.

28:21It's a by-product of experience. So if something great happens, I don't feel the high I once did. Something bad happens, I've seen a lot of bad stuff, it doesn't affect me. That's actually advantageous in business. I have a very even temperament. But being around founders and seeing them have firsts in their journey and how inspired and energetic and how filled they are, that's infectious to me. So that's one of the selfish things I get out of the process. Yeah, I think that's very cool. And I mean, you're coming from a marketing background and marketing is also the practice of understanding human behavior and psychology.

28:59and so what are clues that you're looking for when you're trying to understand people like especially um when you're looking for founders to work with that probably are not very far in their journey yet so it's mostly about the person probably and the idea so what is it that you're looking for in people at day zero it's always the person barely ever the idea it's a field is this a is this a upward or downward trend like how difficult is this business can we add value outside of that idea. Always the person. I haven't fully formed my founder thesis yet. I have my starting thesis, which are qualities I think founders have to have.

29:41But my thesis is changing a little bit, having worked with some people. So my starting thesis was, number one, I think you have to be ambitious. And I say ambitious because, again, it's self-fulfilling. If you think big, aim big, I think ambition is one. But ambition manifests itself in different ways. And we all have a, it's subjective, right? So number two, I think being a really nice person. And I say that because I can't overstate how just being likable helps you in business. Helps you negotiate better deals, helps you hire people because they want to be around you. It's the foundation of a kind of trickle down culture.

30:23Just like be a decent person. And don't conflate decent with a walkover or don't conflate decent. You can be nice in one setting, but be a killer in business, hold very high standards. So that's number two. Number three, deep domain expertise. We want to work with exceptional founders. So if you're building a business in fashion, I want you to know everything about fashion. It might be a marketing business, but if you're going to be involved in an industry, and i believe in the new age domain expertise is one of the most valuable qualities yeah the other then is like i'm gonna say hard qualities not soft resilience kind of character work ethic all of these elements um and now as i zoom out we've been trading for about seven months now we've launched six companies three are publicly trading three uh being built out um and i think the number one quality that i and it's hard to like describe it's obsession it truly is obsession like i i'm seeing this in in the founders that are having the most success right now is they are truly obsessed some of them didn't start obsessed but they became obsessed with the results and the process and some of the founders are just obsessed with the thing that they have they just and I mean I mentioned it before one of our guys had an opportunity to pitch to A16Z for well before they should have by the way very early with you know MVPs being built etc etc got down to the last 32 from about 2 000 applicants um 10 businesses will get a million dollar check from a16s aid and moreover it's the experience it's not the check it's the go to la be in that environment sorry go to sam from being that environment etc yeah um and the founder came to me and said hey do you mind if we apply for this i know we're not looking at venture or outside parties but i think great go ahead yeah and seeing what he did in that process so i want to paint this picture because i think it's valuable to the audience so first of all he reads every book affiliated with a16z not just the hard thing about hard thing like literally every modern book he listens to every single podcast he listens to every podcast of the enemy of this business and the enemy is we talk about mission we talk about enemy who are we fighting against who's the number one right now that we're gonna steal share from yeah he listened to every podcast from their chief product officers across three different lanes over the years.

33:12The level of obsession just to derive insight. All week, he's been training his AI to be a difficult, temperamental VC and grill him. And then we did prep work an hour or two before the actual pitch. And he nailed it. And And he's an introvert. He was terrified and he nailed it. As I said, there are many reasons for us not to get this. And I mean that there are way more reasons not to. But I think he put his best foot forward in a way that regardless, we're all very proud of the process. So, look, that to me, that level of obsession. And this is a person that is currently on his notice leaving so he can go full time into the new business while it's being built.

34:08Leaving a very demanding business. He's now building at light speed with us, a phenomenally ambitious company. And he's finding the time to just obsess in the details and do the things that others are not doing. and actually for me i said to him yesterday this makes me want to step up my game yeah i'm inspired by you i'm like i need to be more obsessed i need to do more prep work i need to stop relying on like my comfort zone yeah so look yeah that's that i thought i'd share that because um i think it's an important quality of a founder and how can you assess like like i mean how's the process usually you get a pitch tag when people like also for people listening if they would want to apply for since they they send a pitch deck and how do you um kind of observe this obsession from like the documents that are handed in i haven't figured that out okay it's impossible i don't think you can yeah what what i look for look the the pitch the idea um there's two factors there yes sense check the person's credibility um but that's not that's that's not a hard stop that's not limiting if the idea is interesting.

35:19And from our perspective, and I echo, we will do probably 10 companies a year. That's it. We'll back build from scratch, day zero, 10 companies a year. And what that fundamentally means is we're looking for synergies. We're looking for to be greater than the sum of our parts. So where there are natural gaps in our services, where there are natural hands-offs. So you could pitch us the best idea in the world at the wrong time, like genuinely and you could be super qualified so there is this there are a lot of forces that are out of your control timing but what i will say is just be really concise and solve a problem don't talk about ai like ai is ubiquitous doesn't matter i assume what you're building is ai or has ai embedded within it otherwise like it has to be exactly that's just a that's table stakes now you know that's my assumption um so yeah look really solve a problem and demonstrate that you understand that problem i think yeah coming back to the beginning uh because what you said what is not going to change is human so probably it's more about talking about the human side like basically which problem for humans you're going to solve and then they're like different ways you can either use ai tools or whatever it is but then probably the the problem must be human related.

36:36Yeah. And look, I'll give you an analogy. This is particularly for product and tech, which I love. If you're building any kind of SaaS solution, any agent, just a form of technology, there are two worlds and the middle is fucked. One world is you solve a big problem in a really material way for a few people. So you go really deep and that's how you can create a lot of value. People pay a lot for solving a big problem. Or you go to the other end, which is you solve a little problem, a bit of friction for a lot of people. Anywhere in the middle is no place to play. Go to one of those extremes and you're much more likely to stack the odds in your favor.

37:22Yeah, I love this. And I always like to think of life in different phases. and what phase are you in right now with co-created and what is next for you? Yeah, interesting. We are conditioned to have five-year phases in our life from schooling. You kind of go through these four to five-year chunks. I've very much followed that path. I've had five-year chapters in my life. And when I think about my next year, I started co-created with no intention of leaving it. As I said, I think it's the byproduct of many reflections of what I'm good at, what I enjoy, and I want to do, and I find a deep amount of fulfillment from it.

38:08Maybe that changes in a few years and life and circumstance, but fundamentally, I love, I true, this is the most fulfilled I've ever been in a professional endeavor as I am today. And I've actually never been more ambitious. It's very weird. we do some we do these community hikes so we invite anyone who's involved in startups or wants to start a business just come on a hike with us we do it once a month and meet some interesting people some of the same faces and again i just did that as to as not with a selfish motive not with a kind of business motive but you know i wanted to get out in yeah in the outdoors more often and forcing myself through a habit and a commitment pact was probably important to do that um some of the founders that that come on this journey i get a real insight into what makes them tick uh what makes that like it's it's really fascinating you spend three hours with people hearing their backstory and their motivations um most founders are rooted in some type of insecurity some type of i want to prove it to the world um yeah you know um certainly rooted in ambition so we've got some interesting we've got some really interesting things going off um and yeah, I'm just deeply fulfilled right now.

39:25Yeah, it's beautiful. Oliver, we have a closing tradition on this podcast. It's called The Open Letter and you can address a one sentence letter to a specific person or to a group of people. So it could be, for instance, your younger self to future entrepreneurs or to maybe to your competitors or something. So what would it be and what would you say? I'll give it to my younger self there are no risks take more risks there are none I would I was as a younger man even though I've had somewhat of an entrepreneurial career and I've had music chapter corporate I've always been very risk adverse or certainly measured and having you know Steve's one of my best friends he's got one of the strongest risk appetites I've ever been around and that's infectious and it's helped me a lot to really understand that there are no risks it seems an arrogant thing to say there are no risks if you have conviction and your capabilities there are no risks thank you so much for this conversation Oliver I'm following you since a well and what i'm always very impressed by is how you combine a certain like it's it's a nonchalance with a with a candid way of addressing like the depths of very complex project complex topics and i think you do it in a very with a very comfortable lightness so yeah i really enjoyed this conversation and it leaves me very inspired so thank you yeah likewise