Cowboy Capitalism | Powell at Jackson Hole, Jackson's Billionaires, Chevron CEO Mike Wirth, Dallas Finance Boom

22:08Raghuram Rajan:When he says big investment, he means it. The River House sits on a 36-acre property in Wilson, Wyoming, the town founded by Philip Wilson's great-grandfather. It's about 10 miles from downtown Jackson and is currently listed at$60 million. Obviously, you have a room like this, you walk into the room and it helps sell the house. You want to live in a place like this. Now, how many houses are in this price range? Over$20 million. A lot of properties are in the$20 to$30 range. Properties like River House form the higher end of the range in a place where private land is hard to come by. But as the ultra-premium market goes up, so does the rest of it.

22:51Raghuram Rajan:Some people here say the billionaires are pushing out the millionaires, not to mention those in lower-income brackets who sometimes commute from across the border in Idaho. And Jonathan Schechter thinks the wealth divide could become a bigger problem under the latest federal legislation. You're number one in per capita income, but also number one in income disparity. Yes, yes. We have roughly 90 % of our income, a little north of that, is earned by the highest earners. So maybe 15 % of our community earns roughly 90 % of our income, leaving about 10 % of our income for the other 85%. The big, beautiful bill disproportionately benefits the wealthy.

23:35Raghuram Rajan:A lot of these cuts that are going to occur, a lot of cuts in social services programs and other programs are going to disproportionately harm those of lower income. And when you have the greatest income inequality, the greatest income disparity of any county in America, then I'm concerned about my constituents, my friends, my colleagues, my neighbors. Philip Wilson's rodeo employs locals, and the lack of affordable housing means he has to run a leaner business. We'd like to have 80 employees here. We're not up to where we need to be, but we make do. There's not enough people here in the valley that live here to work here, because most of them live outside of here.

24:19Raghuram Rajan:So when you come to the rodeo, we're in the evening. You know, they're either 100 miles away or 60 miles away down in Star Valley. Despite the challenges facing Jackson Hole, its workers and its residents say the sense of community remain strong here and that's what Philip Wilson hopes to preserve bringing the ultra wealthy along for the ride. If you're going to come to the rodeo we want you to have a good time because we're going to have a good time so when you come here we try to show them the friendly type of atmosphere that's why we do so much handshaking here at this rodeo. And there's a cowboy western culture in Jackson.

24:55Raghuram Rajan:Oh there is there is here you know the cowboy culture is I'll tell you one thing that a cowboy does is every time he sees you he shakes your hand. If he sees you tomorrow he shakes your hand. If he sees you tomorrow afternoon he shakes your hand. I mean it is the most amazing community ever. I can tell you I have incredibly close friends that are fishing guides and that are self-made billionaires and frankly some of those people I didn't even know they were really wealthy because everyone drives the same like F-150 and wears the same kind of jeans around town. It is a place where there is an enormous amount of wealth, but showing that wealth is not part of normal behavior.

25:35Raghuram Rajan:Jonathan Schechter says he hopes the community spirit and a respect for the land will be constant even in the face of economic change. But he also says they need to be protected and are no longer as certain as they once were. You just needed to have that potluck kind of church social mentality because there were too few of us and we had to rely on each other in a very harsh and extreme place. And so we can't take a lot of these things for granted. We can't take for granted transmitting our cultural values from one generation to another. We can't take for granted transmitting a healthy ecosystem from one generation to another.

26:12Raghuram Rajan:If we lose that, then we've lost something really special. These worries seem far away on a Friday night at the rodeo, a view from the stands shows that although much has changed here, much abides. The story of Jackson Hole is one of American ideals. The wealthy and the ultra-wealthy of today may see what the Wilsons saw when they arrived in Teton County over a hundred years ago, an American frontier that can share the bounty of the land with its people. But more than ever before, those who live here will have to reconcile the values of capitalism with a culture born of cowboys and unforgiving landscapes, a culture which may be their greatest asset of all.

26:57Raghuram Rajan:Coming up, fresh off his transformative acquisition of Hess, we talk with Chevron CEO Mike Wirth about what it means for his company and what it tells us about his industry overall.

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29:14Raghuram Rajan:This is a story about growth and renewal. Not long ago, all the talk was about the looming end of fossil fuels. But now it looks like much of that talk was premature. One of those who was steering his global energy company through the ups and the downs is Mike Worth, chairman and CEO of Chevron, who says that what the industry needed all along was balance. Whenever you talk about energy, there are really three things that matter. And this is whether you're a company or a country. Affordability, because energy that people can't afford doesn't change lives. Reliability, because reliability enables an economy to be built.

29:54Raghuram Rajan:And then protecting the environment. And in policy discussions or in business strategy, and if we focus only on one of those, we sub-optimize on the other two. Well, I think there was a genuine hope to transition to a carbon-free economy very rapidly. And I think what that led people to miss was the reasons why the energy system we have today is in place. Whenever you have balance, there are some trade-offs. How do you minimize the damage to the climate while pursuing the other goals? The first thing you do is you focus on efficiency. The best way to find new energy is not to use energy wastefully that we have today.

30:36Raghuram Rajan:And so efficiency in industrial facilities, in transportation, in manufacturing, all really, really essential. The second thing that we're focused on is investing in technologies that we think hold the promise to reduce the carbon intensity of energy use in the future. So hydrogen is one example, renewable fuels is a second, geothermal is a third. Earlier this year we started up our largest renewable diesel facility. We're the second largest producer of renewable fuels in the United States. Later this year we will start up the largest green hydrogen facility in the United States using solar power to turn water into hydrogen.

31:16Raghuram Rajan:And that will have the storage capacity equivalent to three times all the grid-installed batteries in the entire United States. As we talk right now, it looks like the demand for fossil fuels will continue as far as the eye can see. Do you think it peaks at some point? Demand last year was the highest that it's ever been. Demand this year is up versus last year. Demand next year will be up again. Again, not because of anything our industry is doing, but the population on the planet continues to grow. There will come a time when the population on the planet plateaus, plateaus when development will have largely occurred for most of the less developed part of the world and efficiency will have offset some of that growth.

31:55Raghuram Rajan:Different models give you different assumptions on when that will occur. But the important thing is once we reach that point, it's not like demand for oil will then drop off a cliff. The big consumers of oil are airplanes, ships, long haul trucking. And so even as we find these new technologies becoming more competitive, we're going to have existing consumers of energy that will last for a long time to come. This is going to be measured in decades. The global demand for oil is something over 100 million barrels a day. How long do you think that can sustain? Well, we're closer to 105 million barrels a day today.

32:34Raghuram Rajan:We'll probably be close to 110 million barrels a day by the end of this decade. And then, you know, some forecasts would have it beginning to plateau. So some would have it continuing to grow. OPEC has a growth out through 2050. The IEA shows a plateau beginning in 2030. Our view is probably somewhere in between those two. But that's still an enormous amount of demand in the world to be met. Chevron specifically has positioned itself recently to be in a position to supply some of that with your Hess acquisition. Explain why that strategically was so important to Chevron and to you. Well, we've got a strong growth profile through the rest of this decade.

33:10Raghuram Rajan:The Permian Basin just hit a million barrels a day. We've had global records the last couple of quarters for production. Hess brings with it a nice growth profile that extends beyond the next few years as we reach maturity on some of our big projects that have been starting up. Hess has some very talented people in exploration who have been quite involved in the identification and appraisal of the resource in Guyana, which is the largest new discovery in the world over the last couple of decades. So we're going to bring their talent, their experience, their insights and blend it with ours. And as we move forward, we've got acreage around the world.

33:51Raghuram Rajan:And we're going to have a stronger team as we move forward to challenge some of our conventional thinking, maybe help us think about these opportunities differently. And I'm confident we'll get better results. Can you get along with Exxon as a venture partner down in Guyana? We partner to share risk, to share costs. It's quite common, particularly on large-scale developments. We put our people together, and we get the best out of the people from organizations that bring different experiences together. And we've got great respect for all the companies that we work with. I would fully expect that our team will be good partners with Exxon and vice versa in Guyana.

34:30Raghuram Rajan:Many of the people that will be working on this project are the Hess people who have now joined Chevron. Chevron is much more than an oil company. It's a gas company, too. Let's talk about natural gas. There was a time that was sort of a bridge energy, getting to solar and renewables. Is that still true? I actually think it's becoming more true once again, or more recognized. As you bring wind and solar into an electricity grid, they have great strengths. Once the capital's been invested, the marginal cost is very low, but they're not good at providing baseload capacity because they're variable with the wind and the sunshine.

35:08Raghuram Rajan:You can't really turn the sun up brighter or make the wind blow, it is what it is. And so you need other sources of supply to provide level loading for the grid. Natural gas is ideal for that. It's much lower emitting than coal. Give us a sense of how you think Chevron can help really contribute the power that we need for those huge data centers. The demand is coming. In fact, it's already here. And we're talking to the biggest companies in the world that are investing in building these models. The two constraints that they have right now are chips, the GPUs that go into the data centers, and electricity.

35:46Raghuram Rajan:The U.S. is in a race with China for leadership in AI, and both countries have strong technology bases and strong energy resources. The challenge for us in the U.S. is to mobilize our energy to support the growth in power demand. We've got a grid that is challenged in terms of putting all that power through the grid. So what we're looking at doing is building a large-scale power generation off the grid where we can go fast, we can deliver large scale, we can take advantage of the abundant low-cost gas resource in this country. So we're in deep discussions with several of the biggest companies working on this.

36:25Raghuram Rajan:You have announced already a deal with Vernova and with Engine No. 1. Where is that project? When will it first be online somewhere? So this is what I'm referring to. We've got a site identified, a primary site. We've got some other sites that we're working on as well. We've got seven of GE Vernova's largest turbines coming with delivery beginning next year. So this will be over four gigawatts of power generation. When you talk about permitting, I do think about governments, federal certainly, with the administration, but also state. When you talk about balance, how do you strike a balance between, let me pick names, Gavin Newsom on the one hand in California and Donald Trump in Washington on the other?

37:02Raghuram Rajan:They don't seem to see eye to eye on energy policy. They probably don't see eye to eye on a number of things, energy policy being one of them. And certainly we've got a long history in California, a large footprint in California. But the policies of the state have been designed to discourage investment in the traditional energy system and encourage investment into renewables and the next generation. We talked earlier about balance. My belief is California does not have the balance right. California is trying to convert the supply side too fast, and the demand side hasn't adjusted yet. And that runs the risk of creating shortages.

37:37Raghuram Rajan:I think President Trump is more of a believer in all of the above, certainly been an advocate for oil and gas. And I think his policy approach is more market-oriented and likely to yield the kinds of results that we're talking about in terms of competitiveness. Give us a sense how you became CEO. What brought you to Chevron to begin with? I had a degree in chemical engineering, and I got a summer job where I worked in engineering and really enjoyed it. In the early 1980s, in my early 20s, I decided to go to California. I landed with Standard Oil of California, which is what our company was known as at the time.

38:17Raghuram Rajan:And I found myself working with incredibly talented people on important projects around the world that blended engineering and technology with economics and business, and then with this geopolitical overlay that we're talking about. And 43 years later, I'm still doing it. Looking back on your career, was there a formative moment that you look back on and draw from as you deal with crises or difficult situations? I'll tell you the one, the most recent one that I learned a lot from is COVID. And we, I had some insights that this thing was perhaps going to be worse than most people thought. And I was able to use that to begin to mobilize a response to our company before the rest of the world really recognized what was going on.

39:02Raghuram Rajan:one of the first things that I did is I called my three immediate predecessors, each of whom served as CEO for about a decade, and all of whom lived within a stone's throw of where I live. And they had gone through wars, they had gone through terrorist attacks, financial crises, and they all had experience dealing with an unexpected black swan type of event. And they were incredibly generous with their reflections on what they would have done differently, their suggestions to me on what I should do in response to it. And And it was nice to not have to figure it out all myself. You've been CEO for a while.

39:37Raghuram Rajan:What is there left for you to accomplish? Well, we've got immediate integration of an acquisition. We're going through a large corporate restructuring, which is rewiring business processes and where work gets done. We've got a contract to operate in Kazakhstan that runs out in the next few years. Those will be some things that are on my list that still need to be taken care of. Coming up, the Lone Star State is giving New York's Wall Street a run for its money. We look at what Dallas is doing to become its own version of Lower Manhattan. So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises.

40:16Raghuram Rajan:So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need.

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42:13Raghuram Rajan:This is a story about ambition. They say everything is bigger in Texas, but for the Lone Star State, the status quo is not big enough, particularly when it comes to the financial sector. Our colleague Scarlett Foo went to Dallas to see what it is doing to attract Wall Street business and whether it can handle the growth.

42:36Mike Wirth:When we first moved to Dallas, we lived across the street from the kids' elementary school. And I'll never forget walking through the park with the ducks. And it was like a fairy tale. In Dallas, I think there's no limit. Dallas is a great place to be. Dallas has long been the financial hub of Texas. Since the pandemic, it's become a leading financial and innovation center in the nation. According to the Census Bureau, Dallas-Fort Worth Arlington was the third largest gaining metro area in the U.S. from July 2023 to July 2024, adding almost 178 ,000 residents.

43:10Raghuram Rajan:I moved for work. I had a great opportunity to join an innovative company that was wanting to grow from local to global. I was 15 years an entrepreneur in Los Angeles and truly 30 ,000 miles a year in a car, trying to get home with the kids, all that good stuff. And I just thought there had to be a better way. And we just started looking and a friend called me from here in Dallas. He says, you've got to come out and take a look and see all the things that are going on here. And I did. And here we are 11 years later.

43:38Mike Wirth:Sarah and Ryan Brown ditched California palm trees for Texas tumbleweeds 10 years ago, settling down in the Dallas suburb of Highland Park.

43:46Raghuram Rajan:I see an influx of tech and tech-focused entrepreneurs and operators more and more every day. It's a hot topic here, and I think a lot of it is also coming because of the investments that are coming here. As a tech entrepreneur or someone in tech, you don't have to live out of your car in Silicon Valley.

44:06Mike Wirth:This relative affordability makes the northern Texas region a magnet for both young people at the start of their careers as well as established professionals. Dallas now has the second most finance jobs in the U.S., ahead of both Chicago and L.A. And while it might remain some way off New York, Mayor Eric Johnson sees his city as more than just an upstart. The future is Dallas because I think this is where the growth in the country is occurring in terms of business. The Sun Belt is the fastest growing part of the United States. Texas is the fastest growing part of the Sun Belt. Dallas is the fastest growing part of Texas.

44:42Mike Wirth:If you want to be successful, you go where the action is headed, not where it is. I think the action in this country is headed to this part of the United States, and you can't be in a better place than Dallas. Financial firms are leading the action in Dallas. From Wells Fargo topping out construction of a$500 million campus in the inner city suburb of Irving, to Goldman Sachs building its second biggest U.S. headquarters downtown. to the New York Stock Exchange moving its Chicago branch to Dallas, culminating in what some are calling Y 'all Street.

45:13Raghuram Rajan:Folks have been trying to figure out what to call it. You have the Texas Stock Exchange, Texie, and then all of a sudden Y 'all Street came in. I think it's going to stick. I think it's great.

45:24Mike Wirth:I still would tell my bankers, follow the money. That's exactly what everybody's doing. The money's here. Elaine Agather is chairman of the Dallas region for JPMorgan Chase. After starting her banking career in New York, followed by stints in London and San Francisco, she returned home to Texas in 1984. As I grew with the firm, the state grew. I've literally watched it happen. And with today, 32 ,000 employees. We have more employees in the state of Texas than any other region for J.P. Morgan. Including New York. Including New York. Agatha has seen the city of Dallas grow in stature in the financial world.

46:03Mike Wirth:In the 1980s, Michael Lewis coined the term equities in Dallas and made that into a shorthand for the least desirable assignment in an investment bank, the equivalent of being out of sight, out of mind. Oh, not anymore. Yeah, does anyone reference that? No. No one says that. No one says that anymore. But I remember that, but no one says that anymore. Why do you think that is? I think because of the growth. I think the wealth, the wealth that has been generated here. Today, we are so diverse as an economy. I mean, we got smart. It's everything from tech, food, retail, huge retail. But that diversity, it really attracted the growth, that people didn't have to just be an oil and gas guy to move down here.

46:47Mike Wirth:Years ago, you really needed to be in New York for a big job. That has all changed. We have lots of jobs here in Dallas that are national jobs. Dallas has a lot of things going for it as a city. Number one, there's the infrastructure here. Two, it's a very business-friendly environment. And three, there's that tremendous depth of a talent pool. Young professionals are coming here in droves. Just anecdotally, we recently had a post for a new analyst position and had over 200 applicants within 24 hours, and all from outside of the state of Texas. Really now, this is a career move. It is the career move for young people to come to Dallas to build something.

47:24Mike Wirth:J.P. Morgan isn't the only big bank betting on Dallas. I believe you can almost see Goldman Sachs' new headquarters from your office here. Oh, right there. Yes, I look at it every day. It's very annoying. I'm teasing. And then in B of A, and you just see along this park the growth that has happened. And it's attracted many financial-type institutions. The opportunity set here in Dallas, especially in the wealth management side, is tremendous. The number of households in our target demographic has grown 20 % year over year in the last one year alone, and it's been consistent over the last five, so I just can't imagine a better place to do what I'm doing.

48:02Mike Wirth:Ashley Herbst is the head of the Dallas market at J.P. Morgan Private Bank. She is one of the city's many recent transplants. We moved here for my job. The opportunity to run J.P. Morgan's private bank in Dallas was an absolute dream come true. It was a dream job, no-brainer for our family. It was definitely not easy. The career decision was easy. The personal decision was harder. It's just been an incredible place to build a career for me. I love my job. I can't wait to get to work every day, but my family's happy. And that's really important to me, and I think it's a good testament to what living in Dallas is like.

48:38Mike Wirth:Dallas absolutely can handle the population growth we're experiencing. Dallas Mayor Eric Johnson is quick to compare his city with New York. This has been a long-term conscious effort on the part of the city and our business community to make sure Dallas continues to be a truly pro-business city. It's not just rhetoric. We are a sanctuary city from socialism in this country. This is a place where we still actually view business and people who create jobs and people who contribute to the economic growth of the city. that's a good thing. They're not the enemy. We're not trying to punish them. We don't vilify them.

49:20Mike Wirth:It's just not in our DNA. Like Dallas is a city that gave the world Texas Instruments, gave the world Southwest Airlines. A lot of our great Fortune 500 companies started here. We have a culture here that really respects business. So when it comes to financial firms, what do you think is Dallas's biggest draw to that sector? We don't really feel the need to throw incentives around to get people to invest in Dallas and to move to Dallas and to relocate significant operations to Dallas. We will target a big fish like a Goldman Sachs because then the other companies will follow. You'll create an incentive for other financial service firms to be in that same ecosystem with a company like a Goldman Sachs, but you also will get the accounting firms, the law firms, and it becomes sort of this virtuous cycle.

50:05Mike Wirth:So the Goldman Sachs deal is a great example of a case where they're going to invest over half a billion dollars and an 800 ,000 square foot development that's going to create 5 ,000 jobs and is just going to be transformative for our city. Chris Kleiner leads Hunt Realty, which is one of the developers behind the Goldman Project. Hunt Realty is also working on a massive development to the north of Dallas with other marquee names, the Professional Golfers Association of America and Universal.

50:32Raghuram Rajan:Fields is our 2 ,500 acre development in Frisco. It's a gem amidst all the unique positive things going on in Frisco and Prosper and other parts north. And there was the opportunity to master plan something really special. We set our sights to create something different, something world class. The inclusion of 26 miles of trails, the inclusion of water, the inclusion of parks, different price point homes. very unique mixed-use retail residential office development. Mass attracts mass and we're over a thousand homes being built. We've got great residential home developer partners. Universal has bought 100 acres.

51:16Raghuram Rajan:They're going to be opening a very unique ages 3 to 11 theme park here in 26. University of North Texas has a Frisco campus that is adjacent to our site. We're thrilled with the potential and we're seeing that come to life.

51:29Mike Wirth:Just northeast of Fields lies Prosper, another small town in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that is pitching families on its affordability and quality of life.

51:37Raghuram Rajan:We're saying here's this community that we have awesome amenities, great school district, you've got space to meet people, we have lifestyle programs, it doesn't matter where you come from. We get a lot of people in from the West Coast, Toyota relocation, there's been other Fortune 500 relocation.

51:55Mike Wirth:David Blom is president of TELUS Group. Its Winsong Ranch project in Prosper is now home to some of Prosper's 40 ,000 plus residents. From 2000 to 2025, Prosper's population has grown by 2 ,000 percent.

52:10Raghuram Rajan:It's become more diverse, and diverse is probably an overused term. But with corporate relocations from the West Coast, we've had people come in from the Midwest, from the Northeast. least.

52:22Mike Wirth:The risk is all this growth makes Dallas and its surrounding suburbs less affordable. There was any issue that our community is facing is that the housing prices are going up, so less families are able to afford it. So we have more seats in our schools. So that could be two ways, right? We don't have enough funding for our school, but we don't have crowded schools either. So I guess it's a balance. New residents also point out a downside of master-planned communities, the limited outdoor public spaces, especially when compared with the natural landscapes and wonders along the coasts.

52:53Raghuram Rajan:I think it's really difficult to be a weekend warrior here on the recreation side. And when we lived in California, we're at the ocean, we're at the beach, we're in the mountains. We're doing everything outside. There's not a national forest here. There's no Bureau of Land Management here. And so everything is very privatized. So I do miss the ability to just get outside and maybe get lost.

53:14Mike Wirth:The growth of Dallas can't be questioned, But Yall Street is not yet a replacement for Wall Street. While firms are adding middle and back office jobs there, the seats of power still reside in New York. Jamie Dimon and the CEOs of J.P. Morgan's different businesses aren't likely to move from the firm's brand new headquarters in midtown Manhattan. But Dallas is heading in the right direction. The growth just keeps happening. Our Plano office was about 6 ,000 when we built it and we kept adding to it. You need an area of the country that can get to both coasts quickly. And this center of the country is a huge advantage.

53:50Mike Wirth:James used to tease about the headquarters will be here. No, no, it's in New York, make no mistake. But he is very proud of Texas. I want people to know that Dallas really is a place where the American dream is still very much alive and well, and it's not rhetoric. Like, we really are a place where people can come who are not from here. We welcome outsiders. It's a place that really embraces energy and hard work. that can-do spirit we have, when we see it in other folks, we embrace it. How long will it take for Dallas to win as a financial center? I think we're winning. I really think we're winning now with the growth.

54:27Mike Wirth:There are still people that have not been to Texas that might have kind of an image in their head. So I think that over the next 10 years, as more people understand the sophistication, I think that that image of Texas will continue to change.

54:47Raghuram Rajan:That does it for us here at Wall Street Week. I'm David Weston. See you next week for more stories of capitalism.

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