Distressed Denim - Why Four Dutch Consumers Want to Take Levi's to Court

0:00People of all walks of life, from cowboys, from miners, all the way through to the movie stars who wanted that western look, to the rebels like James Dean and Marlon Brando in the 50s, to the hippies, the counterculture people in the 60s, and later on the people who brought down the Berlin Wall. I think Levi's has always been a symbol of freedom. When you think about denim, you think about Levi's. They have a very powerful place in the fashion industry and they can use it for good or for bad. And I hope, yeah, they're going to use it for good. For me, fashion is a verb. So it's too fashion. You're listening to Wardrobe Crisis with Clare Press.

0:45Join me every week as we look at sustainability, ethics and the business and madness of fashion. Hello again. Hands up, who's ever felt frustrated by disingenuous brand marketing? I imagine I'm not alone. Well, I know I'm not alone. And before we get into this week's topic, which is about greenwashing and a particular court case that's being brought by Clean Clothes Campaign against Levi's, I thought I'd just share something I've been reading in Naomi Klein's No Logo. So I just finished reading her much more recent book, Doppelganger. Highly recommend it. It's brilliant. And then I thought, I'm going to go back and reread No Logo.

1:26So I got this edition out of the library. It's the 10 years edition after it was first published. And in her new introduction, No Logo at 10, Klein looks back on how this book was such a success, why it hit home and why she started to write it in the first place. And there's a bit here where she says that she'd started to write about this idea that corporations had decided that they should produce brands and not products. And she says this was the era when corporate epiphanies were striking CEOs like lightning bolts from the heavens. Nike isn't a running shoe company. It's about the idea of transcendence through sports.

2:07Starbucks isn't a coffee shop chain. It's about the idea of community. Down on earth, these epiphanies meant that many companies that had manufactured their products in their own factories and had maintained large, stable workforces embraced the now ubiquitous Nike model. Close your factories, produce your products through an intricate web of contractors and subcontractors and pour your resources into the design and marketing required to fully project your big idea. And she's so right, isn't she? These brands are selling a dream, a lifestyle, a message. Well, in many cases, they're completely abdicating responsibility for how their stuff gets produced.

2:48And of course, that means for the workers who actually make those products come to life. OK, so what was Pam talking about at the start of this episode? She is a Dutch consumer who is part of a court case brought by the Clean Clothes campaign against Levi's on the basis of consumer law. And they're arguing that the brand has used misleading claims. Says the CCC, Levi's sells jeans with the message that the company produces responsibly and respects labour rights. But under European rules and the Authority for Consumers and Markets guidelines on sustainability claims, companies are not allowed to create an impression that they're more sustainable or fairer than is actually the case.

3:31Now the catalyst for this thing with Levi's involves treatment of workers at a partner factory in Turquia. It's called Ozak Textiles and they produce jeans for Levi's. This episode tells that story. We're going to hear from Pam about why she joined the action, from Emma who is a lead campaigner at CCC and from Bego, a Turkish workers' rights activist with an extraordinary story of his own. At 15 Bego was a garment worker making jeans and using sandblasting to give them the vintage look. And he contracted silicosis as a result. That is a life-threatening lung disease that comes from breathing in the dust.

4:11Now Bego's case and subsequent activism helped ban sandblasting from the denim supply chain in Turkey. But as you will hear, while they're not doing that anymore, there's a new dangerous technique that is widely used in the industry, potassium permanganate, PP spray. There is a good news story. Levi's stopped using PP back in 2018 and now they age their denim with lasers and dry ozone techniques which are safe new technologies and they still give customers that worn look. Now that just goes to show that change is possible. So what will it take to change how too many brands continue to allow worker exploitation in their supply chains?

4:52from union busting to denying workers their basic rights, whether that's the right to organise, to strike, to be free from harassment or to be paid a living wage. Could this latest CCC tactic to use consumer law that protects shoppers from greenwashing make a difference to workers? A couple of things first though, this is one you will want to check out the show notes for thewardrobecrisis.com is where you find them and the links in the episode description. These include a link to the Clean Clothes Campaign's crowdfunding campaign for the court case. If you flash with cash, please do consider sending some my way.

5:30Always got my hand out like a busker at risk of playing a broken record. The Wardrobe Crisis sub stack powers the podcast. Your paid subscription helps keep the show ad free and free for all to access. Thank you to my new subscribers, Jackie H, Jackie V, Eugenia, Natalia, I'm sure there are more, everyone who believes in this project, which, by the way, I just realised has had a birthday. I didn't notice because it was my own birthday. But Wardrobe Crisis just turned nine. Would you believe it? Happy birthday! Okay, here's my chat with the Turkish clean denim advocate, Abdul Halim Bego Dumeir.

6:08Welcome to the Wardrobe Crisis podcast, Abdul Halim. People call me Bego. Bego is my Kurdish name. Thank you so much for joining us. We're going to talk about Levi's. But before we do that, I wanted, if I may, to start with your own story. You began working in a denim factory when you were a teenager. Yeah, I started to work in denim industry in age 15 as a child, child labour, unfortunately. So I was doing sandblasting. Sandblasting is a technique that bleaching denim start with fast fashion. But unfortunately, that technique caused a deadly illness called silicosis. In 2007, I was diagnosed by silicosis and I realized I have lost 46.2 % of my lung.

6:55Wow. So in 2008, I established a sandblasting committee in Turkey and we fought for our right. In three years, we succeeded to convince the government to ban sandblasting in Turkey. and in 2011 also published a law and give all workers monthly salary. And then I started to do international sandblasting campaign. That time I joined also Clean Clothes campaign. Okay, just if you're listening to this and you've never heard of it before, the story of sandblasting, it's crazy because essentially what brands are doing is making new product look old when it's new by blasting it with high pressure air and sand, right?

7:37it's an example of how crazy fashion is as a concept that we fake vintage looks and sell new things that pretend to be that yeah unfortunately like I mean the denim itself made for long use or in 80s century it's actually start to be a product for workers in mining industry in USA But with fast fashion, brands want to sell more product to customers. So it's not good for them to sell them a gene they wear for 20 years. So that sandblasting and that other bledging techniques comes with that. Because when you sandblast that gene, its age come down to nine months or one year. Now you mentioned the origins of denim go back to miners, gold miners.

8:26Levi's talks about this, about the 1800s when those first denim jeans were made to be long lasting, like unbreakable with the rivets and the very strong cotton fabric. But now we want them to look like we've already lived in them before we bought them, like we're James Dean or we're a cowboy or whatever. You buy them brand new, but aged artificially. It's actually completely ridiculous. Okay, Bego, I'm going to quote yourself back at you, if you don't mind. You said, The job I was working to earn money cost me my health. Unfortunately. At that time, though, in 2007, did the industry know what the effects of this technique were having on workers?

9:08They should have known because silicosis itself is an old illness. It's come from 1932. People know it's come from the sand, but we didn't know. like i mean when you when you check the sector how the sector formulated in here you think okay they knew actually that's like example my story my court case has been like around 14 years still it's ongoing because i was working for a company but all my legal thing recorded under the big company like the company had a shelter in it so i was producing for the the most famous brand tom ilfigure but i never heard them they come back to ask anything you were only like 15 is that even legal uh i mean in 15 is not legal it's 16 is legal but like 99 of workers who did sandblasting was unregistered.

10:11Really? I was one of the lucky of them was registered, but registered in a different way, not in a right way. Still, the factory covered themselves. The people who were working in sandblasting, the people in need, either people immigrated from Romania to here to work, or from Iraq, Azerbaijan, or people who actually immigrated from east of Turkey or to Anatolia to Istanbul. Domestic immigrants also did this job because we were sleeping in the factories. We didn't have a shelter to sleep in because they knew people who have other options will not do this job because the job itself was dirty. Like you were staying in a cabin in a dark sand and in every evening after the job, you need to shower in the factory and then go out because no one will recognize your face out of the dust.

11:07Yeah, because you're covered in it. Yeah, with the dust. God. What happened then after the Denim Sandblasting Workers Solidarity Committee? Who joined it and what did it achieve? You said that subsequently the government did ban this technique. With our call, a lot of doctors, famous people, lawyers, people from civil society joined our committee. and I mean people were dying here that was the the part of the sensitive took people's attention because with the diagnosed it was like a trauma for us and daily you were watching on tv someone passing away from sandblasting with their story so that's triggered the public of turkey to pressure the health ministry the the sandblasting is an in an industry industry is belong to the labor ministry but the ban comes from the health ministry because people were pushing the health ministry so after the sound lasting band in turkey myself i realized the textile sector is not local thing it's a global because the brands start to move from turkey to other countries so in 2012 and u.s journalist visit me and with some pictures from bangladesh they doing actually using the basically the same technique.

12:30With Clean Clothes campaign, we start like an international campaign, like over 100 brands actually had statements say they will not use sandblasting in their supply chain anymore. Then, you know, the Rana Plaza came like the direction a bit changed. But now we try to internationally look up if they're still using the sandblasting, but they replaced it with a new technique called potassium permanganate, which is also hazardous, like classified by European Chemical Agency as a dangerous chemical. Yeah, I was going to say, so does that mean that everything is safe now? Obviously, hazardous chemicals have replaced the physical technique of blasting the denim with sand.

13:10So again, you're looking at the potential for workers to be in unsafe conditions. May I just ask you just personally, how are you? How are you doing health-wise today? Well, like I cannot run. I cannot climb in high place. Like I have to always take care of myself. Every morning I have injection either from one of my arm. Yeah, I live with the half capacity. That's the thing. But like... Half. Is that what you said? Half. But like my silicosis in my lung is now stopped, but silicosis doesn't have a cure. If it's triggered, then it will took my life in six months. That's what doctor says. Really?

13:55Has Tommy Hilfiger ever heard you speak of this and actually got in touch and said, we'd like to talk to you? No, unfortunately, never. I mean, obviously, I'm so sorry that this has happened to you personally, but I also feel so angry with the brands, not just that example, but generally dodging responsibility. We see this over and over again where the brands, and let's talk about this current case that's ongoing now with Levi's. But the brands love to duck responsibility to just say, oh, we're sorry, we'll take some action, but not actually take any or not take real responsibility. And they so often say it's not our factory or, you know, it gets so tired, doesn't it, hearing this over and over again, but they're not our direct supply.

14:38You know, then we don't own them. It's the way they formulate the sector. Like, I mean, if we talk about Levi's, I remember in 1999 or 1997, I have heard like people in France and Belgium demonstrating against Levi's because Levi's moved their factory from there to Turkey. But in 2011, they sold their factory in Turkey. They said, having our own factory is not beneficial for us. we will outsource the product in this factory in Cambodia and in Egypt. So they basically were running away from responsibilities. But now there are international law make them responsible for their supply chain too. And also like the consumer are more conscious today.

15:27They pushing actually brands to take responsibility for the product they make because brands are principal employer. Okay, here's a scenario that I imagine might be in listeners' minds, certainly in mine. When you go and buy a new pair of jeans, you might be swayed by the design, certainly the fit, how they look. But how can you actually know what processes have been used? Is there a way to know? Yeah, well, like first, they should not buy bleached denim. Because like I said, bleached either made by potassium permanganate, sandlusting. There are a lot of like stone washing techniques, all reducing the denims its life.

16:10If they want to buy a pair of jeans, they should buy like the non-bleached one. And also read the labour, where it's made. Try to pop up questions to people who are selling it. Because I believe those questions somehow will trigger the top. Where it's made, how it's made, do you pay living wage to your workers? What can you tell us about Ozak Textile? What do they produce? Where? How big are they? And under what conditions were the workers, who legally, by the way, sought to strike in 2023, under what conditions were they working? Well, Ozak is a group that has three factories in Turkey, one in Şanlıurfa, one in Malatya, one in Istanbul.

16:55So the factory in Şanlıurfa is only producing for Levi's. Only? Yeah, the only brand in that factory sourcing is Levi's. In 2023, you know, the earthquake happened in Turkey. So after the earthquake, most of the factories in that region, they were like, due to deadline, they were pushing workers to work, to come to work right after the earthquake. Yeah, so in Özak factory, there was a lot of pressure that workers saying they were pushing workers to work overtime to, you know, to limitless even after the earthquake. So when workers, they realize they cannot defend themselves, they become like part of a union.

17:40So when the factory heard this, they're threatening workers, they're dismissing one of the leaders of those workers. And then 400 workers, they're going on strike by supporting the leader worker. So just to make this clear, after the dreadful earthquake that happened, and we did a podcast actually with a British-Turkish designer, Bora Asku, it's episode 179 that touched on this. But after that happened, why were workers being pushed to return to factories? Because what? Because orders needed to be completed? or because other parts of the country were offline or why? No, actually like the Urfa, this 11 city in the region, they are the earthquake region.

18:28Like earthquake actually happened in Urfa, but like the product has deadline. The factory has agreement with Brent. It's a fast fashion time and they need to complete the ordering time. So a lot of the factory in the region without checking the factories they either threat worker either gave bonus they pushed worker to to come to the factories to work we had a research we will find out through a research in the field how they pushing worker to work in the factory without even checking the factory's safety and presumably there is a high risk of the buildings being unstable definitely some buildings in the region they were just repairing the part it seems from the outside, not checking it properly to just tell the worker it's safe, you can work now.

19:21So, okay, workers went on strike. Turkish workers have the right to strike. Is that correct? Yes, like unionising is a constitutional right here. When you become part of a union, you have a right to strike. So in this factory, workers are part of a union, actually, but the union were not supporting workers. The union became like a tool that the factory management using union to push the worker to obey their rule. So the workers switched their union. They became like part of a new independent union. So they went on the strike with the new union. That's why the authority said the strike is not legal.

20:05They tear-gassed workers, they attacked workers. But a few months later, the court decision was saying, no, the action was legal. Three months later, that decision came. We'll share a link to a CNN report at the time into this action. And it's brutal, actually, it's very shocking to see, because the authorities really cracked down on them. Does that happen often? I mean, to me, watching that footage, I thought, workers have the right to unionize, Turkey has a great reputation as a denim innovator. I mean, I've done some work with different manufacturers, but with denim producers, and they talk about how sustainable, how innovative and how modern they are.

20:49And then you see this and you think, well, there's another side to this story. So broadly, how prevalent are these issues? Well, unfortunately, it depends on how the factory owner is strong. Like the ÖZAK owners are connected to politicians. They have really wealth, money, and they can manipulate politicians. They can organize things. Like all authority in Şanlıurfa were supporting the factory. They should have been stay with workers because the workers were the public. They were voting for them. You have seen the videos. They were tear gassed. Even the mosque were closing, nothing led them to go there.

21:35They were really in a heavy situation in that time. And the workers have been blacklisted to not find job in other factories after they've been dismissed. Is it dangerous for you to do this work and talk about this publicly? I mean, when you are in this path, you are ready for anything. Like the head of Pyrtexan now is in prison because of his speech. He just said it is government's duty to support those workers, not the factory. OK, let's talk about what Levi's response looked like. And again, I'll encourage listeners to watch that CNN clip because you can see some of the wording in it that was sent by official emails from the brand saying, yes, we're very concerned and we will take action if the supplier doesn't conform to our code of conduct.

22:29And I'm paraphrasing. What happened? Well, like the person got in touch with Levas, it was like me and Ineke from Clean Clothes Campaign. Like their first response said, this is, again, it's our code of conduct. We will make things right. if the even factory not make things right then we will cut our product from there but they didn't but they went silent after that email they didn't even respond our you know follow-up emails and so the dismissed worker the factory pushed them to accept mediators order like it already took long to be on strike and the only income of those workers were their wage so they couldn't stay longer in strike without earning anything.

23:20In the end, they have to accept the offer comes from the factory. It was like a small offer to just say, we are paying your unpaid wage, you sign this paper and leave. It just comes down to power always, doesn't it? That's what I think. I do wish brands would do better. Well, like I said, there are today They are conscious. They are pushing brands to have responsibility on their supply chain. So somehow brands try to manipulate consumers and do greenwashing to say, look, we have all policies. We have codes of conduct. We do things in a great way. Like even Levi's writing on their product, the product made responsibly.

24:04So when consumers buy it, they say, OK, this made responsibly, they buy it. But actually, it's kind of misleading. What would you like to see happen with this case, Bego? Well, like unionising is a constitutional worker right. So those workers from the factory, they are dismissed because of their union right. So they need to be paid union compensation. That's our legal law, say. So Levi's need to take responsibility for those 400 workers and pay them their compensation. So 22 workers still haven't got their severance compensation as well. They are in the court case process. Those all need to be paid by Levi's.

24:48And they need to make sure this is not happening in their other factories. They need to make sure all their suppliers respect freedom of association. Because that's the only power workers have in the factories. A single worker cannot bargain about his or her wage. it's it's like power thing but when you are unionized a union representative you're selecting from the factory and top behind of you like they will feel in the balance to talk about your ways your right so that's how the ILO formulated the sector how the international law works do you think that the situation in the garment industry in Turkey is improving is it getting better compared to when you started out yeah I mean definitely if you compare with 20 years ago, it's developed.

25:39Like 20 years ago, even brand didn't have the codes of conduct or other policies. Like if you compare sector, the sector is developed. But there are a lot of new technologies. Like 20 years, there was not those options that brand can use. Right now, there are a lot of technologies, the tools that brand can use to make their supply chain more sustainable. So for example, using lasers to distress denim. We don't need to be using potassium permanganate. We don't need to do that. I mean, Brandt have codes of conduct. They have CSR department right now, sustainability department. But all things come from the price part, like the buying department.

26:20So the sector based on cheap labour, cheap product, that's the reason they're not using laser, they're using PP spray, because PP spray is very cheap. And perhaps we ought to leave listeners with some kind of action plan, Bego. if you're listening to this and you're feeling worried about your Levi's or any other denim brand and you're concerned that it's difficult to know the stories behind the denim that you're wearing what would be your advice Bego to the consumer? Well to to join us like we have website about Levi's campaign and to to check our website and to push Levi's actually to do what's right Levi's has their emails on their website and they can use those emails to send them to say, we have here the story of your producing in Turkey.

27:10And now it's time that you keep your promises. You have given worker and also consumer because you writing on your product, you make them responsibly. Now it's time to keep your promises. Next up, this is Emma Voigt from the Clean Clothes Campaign's Amsterdam offices. Hi, I'm calling in from my apartment in Amersfoort, the middle of the Netherlands. Today I'm working from home. We have an office in Amsterdam. I'm working as an urgent appeals coordinator, connecting people in the network that are trying to resolve labor rights violations at factories and making sure that the right people are connected to resolve these cases.

27:53Before joining the Clean Clothes campaign, I worked at what was still called the Bangladesh Accord, now the International Accord. And that also gave me a lot of insights into how the industry works and why we really need binding commitments from brands rather than any voluntary initiatives. Global clothing company Levi's is accused of ignoring its own labor practices by continuing to work with the Turkish factory. Last year, hundreds of employees at the Ozok Textile Factory in Turkey were fired after they joined a union and went on strike. The workers had been complaining about overtime hours and pay.

28:30They were joining this union because they were unhappy with the working conditions. Yeah, one of the workers said in a testimony, for example, that people would get so exhausted that they would faint. And what the factory would do in response was to briefly bring them to the prayer room. and once they were conscious again, they just were sent back to work. So it was really a bad situation and I could definitely understand people wanting to improve things and joining this new union. But the factory was very hostile to this new union. When they eventually formulated a list of demands together and delivered that to the factory management, they tore up the letter of demands on the spot.

29:18And one of the worker leaders I know was then fired. And in solidarity with her, many workers said, OK, that's enough, I'm going on strike. And this resulted in a long period of protests and strikes happening outside of the factory. I think many listeners would expect Levi's to be fairly good with this stuff. That's not what happened. That is not what happened. When these demonstrations were happening, the riot police came to... That's when they were attacked with pepper spray. Many were arrested. It was a very violent response. And end of story. The factory fired all the workers that had participated in these strikes.

30:05So 400 workers lost their jobs. This is on paper very clearly in violation of Levi's own code of conduct, in addition to obviously also international labor rights standards. We contacted Levi's and so did the trade union and CCC Turkey. Their first response was actually to acknowledge that indeed this was a violation of their code of conduct. and not just any violation but a zero tolerance violation meaning that in principle it could end up with them exiting this factory because the factory has not behaved so badly that they don't see any way to continue to collaborate with them well that sounds good that sounded very good but then we asked for concrete action also to help the 400 workers that had lost their jobs We tried to move the conversation to concrete follow-up actions, and that part never really materialized.

31:09So the initial ask from the side of the workers, but also the recommendation from the Worker Rights Consortium, which is an independent labor rights organization that also did a thorough investigation of the facts of this case, Their recommendation was that Levi should ensure that all 400 workers would be offered reinstatement and compensation for the time they were unemployed. That never materialized. Levi's moved to a very vague story of we are in constant conversation with the factory management. We are working on a remediation plan, a plan for corrective action. But then our follow-up question was, okay, great to hear that you're working on this.

31:51Clean Close Campaign Turkey is happy to meet with you. The trade union leader is happy to meet with you to also give their inputs on what they think should happen, which is also what's expected from brands in terms of so-called meaningful stakeholder engagement obligations that they have. So to make sure that actually the people that are affected by your policies get a say in how you define those policies. That was not answered by them. So they kind of went radio silent on us. Yeah, we're now at a point that the demand moved from reinstatement just to compensation on the side of the workers. And they're still asking for that.

32:37You've come up with this idea, which is now involving Dutch consumers and the courts. Levi's in a way made it more difficult for themselves Because they've made a lot of claims to the public About what's happening in their supply chains And the European law and therefore also the Dutch law Protects consumers against misleading and vague statements in advertising We've previously seen successful cases against companies in other sectors like airlines promising that you can fly. KLM. Yes, exactly. KLM was told that they could not advertise their flights as being good for the environment. And similarly, Levi's cannot say we're always standing up for what's right and our products have been responsibly made without substantiating that, without actually providing any concrete evidence.

33:40And even in this case, with a very clear case that is disproving their claims. So we're leveraging this law. We've put out a call for consumers that have bought Levi's in the past few years. And four individual consumers agreed to become formally part of the court case as co-claimants with us. So the way that it's set up is that our foundation, Clean Close Campaign, represents the general consumer in the Netherlands, the average consumer. But these four co-claimants are individual consumers who have a concrete moment that they purchased Levi's jeans based on looking at the brand's website, looking at the labels and thinking, oh, this aligns with my values.

34:31this is why I'm choosing to purchase from them instead of another denim brand and yeah when they found out about the case that happened in the Turkish factory they were very disappointed and have said if I'd known this if Levi's had been more honest about this reality in their supply chains I would not have made this purchase. It's currently ongoing so we're not sure what the outcome will be. But just tell us what this idea around damages in kind and compensation means. Right. So the fact that individual consumers joined us in the case means that we can also talk about concrete purchases that were made under false pretenses.

35:16That means that according to the law, consumers would be entitled to be compensated for damages. And I think the traditional way that we would think about this is, okay, you hand back your jeans to Levi's and Levi's hands you back your money. Their motivation to participate in this case is obviously also not because they want to get a few hundred euros. They are participating because they want Levi's to keep good on their promises, to actually, yeah, to make the reality align with their promises and to compensate the workers. So what their primary demand in this case is, is to receive compensation in kind, quote unquote.

36:01And the way that we've defined that is that Levi's should ensure compensation for the workers. That for the consumers would represent a true compensation for the damages that were caused by the misleading claims. I just also wanted to say that we've sent a final warning letter, or I think the official word is claims letter, in January to Levi's, in which we give an overview of our main arguments. And their response thus far has been mainly to quickly start removing things from their website. As in not say that we're responsibly made. Yes, exactly. My favorite example is the claim, we've always stood up for what's right, which was accompanied by a picture of a person standing atop the Berlin Wall on the day that the Berlin Wall collapsed.

36:56Oh, get out, really? Very iconic imagery also. Oh, in Levi's, in the, you know, iconic jeans. Yes. And they've removed the phrase, we've always stood up for what's right. And after going on a massive cleaning exercise on their website, What they told us is that they had removed the outdated information. Such an interesting choice of words. Our lawyers also are saying this in the writ of summons. How can something like this be suddenly outdated? A statement like, we've always stood up for what's right. You've just decided that in 2026 it's no longer accurate. That's very interesting to say the least.

37:43And yeah, in terms of what it means for the case, we're talking about misleading practices that already happened in the past. The purchases were made in 2024 and 2025. So that's, yeah, is not affected by how they are now updating their website. But it's still interesting as a first response from the company. To the best of your knowledge, is this the first time that organizations have come together to use this misleading claims framework to look at workers' rights rather than environmental claims? Yes, as far as I know, we're the first to start this case against what is called social washing, quote unquote, rather than greenwashing.

38:28Also, the fact that we're mainly drawing in the writ of summons on previous cases that were about greenwashing, I think that also shows that it's a new frontier. Last but not least, we're going to hear from Pam about why she joined the court case. I love this. it made me think like what would it take to consider doing something like this yourself let us know if you would we'd love to hear from you my name is Pam van van der Rooy I work in a hospital as a sustainability manager I have been working on sustainability for quite some time now and I've also tried to make some changes in my personal life so food traveling but also clothes what was it that led you to decide to take part in the court case I try to be a responsible consumer.

39:14When I do consume, I try to do it like if it works secondhand. And if that doesn't work, I try to buy something of a responsible brand. As a consumer, it's very difficult to see what companies are sustainable and companies are not because you just have to rely on the information they give you. And they're not as transparent as it seems. I feel like if you're making a decision on the information you're getting, and it says it should be a responsible choice, then you hope that's true. So that's also why I found this court case very interesting. I saw it on Sarah Dubbeldom's Instagram. She's a Dutch influencer having to do a sustainable fashion.

39:53And I've signed a lot of petitions and stuff like that. But this felt like a bigger opportunity to make an impact. I did also want to say I did feel a bit nervous about going and joining this lawsuit because I mean, signing petitions is one thing and trying to buy from more sustainable brands is another but yeah really joining a lawsuit it felt quite as a big thing but if you feel like you can join a bigger thing just do because I think that's also going to make a difference I hope in the long run and it's not as scary as I thought it would be I actually yeah I'm very glad I did it there's a reason why we don't all do this isn't there you might be for example worried that you'll get judged at work or by your peers or it might mean that you're in the media in ways that you didn't seek or can't control is that what you thought I do feel people around me know what I stand for but still having it laid out publicly but still it feels a bit I don't know vulnerable maybe and people can always look for it and then think something they can also think you're you're hypocritical which I am I think everyone is but we're just trying to do right one step at a time Well, there are so many things in this, Pam.

41:06There's like people find it easy to comment or share on social media because it requires pretty much nothing really. Signing an online petition also easy, but when you get on to speaking at a public meeting or starting a campaign or as you've done joining a class action, that requires more. I think that's brave. I don't want to say I'm brave. I think a lot of people are up for it. So that's what I want to invite them to do because I do feel a lot of a lot of people can make a difference are you a jeans person and before all this what were your impressions of Levi's as a company why did you shop there would it be accurate to call you a fan or a regular shop I would say regular is a bit too much but I do like their jeans I'm not wearing a lot of dresses or skirts or anything so denim would always be my go-to I mean I'm not a person that follows fashion like really on the minute.

41:59It's always denim. Jeans are one of the things I like to buy new. And I have bought over the course of my life some Levi's jeans because I like them. And they're good quality as well, which I think is also important. I felt that they were really working very hard to do right by the workers, to have respect and see in every part of the supply chain what's happening. Of course, I'm always a bit like you're always a bit critical with bigger companies, especially like because there's a lot on going for profits and it's very easy to say something and then don't do it in the in the long run but I did feel that they had a good thing going yeah my perception was that they were really working on giving everyone in the supply chain good rides and working on the working conditions I'm interrupting just to share with you something that Michael Kibori said and You heard from him at the top of this episode.

42:56But in 2018, I interviewed Michael, who at the time was Levi's vice president of global sustainability. Now, he's very much of the opinion that business can make a positive difference. And he sees corporations as having the power to lift people out of poverty in the global south and all that stuff. I don't agree with that outlook these days. But I've got to say that I liked him a lot. And I do think that he meant it anyway. listening back to the episode, it's number 87 if you want to add it to your playlist, I was totally buying this line about Levi's sustainability. I was very enthusiastic about their climate goals, their science-based targets, their work on water and their commitment to durability.

43:42Now there's actually a bit where we talk about brand heritage and Michael mentions those iconic images of the fall of the Berlin Wall and people wearing Levi's and says that it represented freedom. Heard that at the start. At no point do I say in this old episode, freedom for whom? Maybe not for the workers. I wish I had. But this is the next bit that I thought worth resharing with you today. In 2018, the man in charge of CSR seemed to believe that the workers' rights piece was already solved. The next goal for Levi's, he said, was around something he called worker well-being. We started when I began with the company, the work was all about protecting workers' rights, protecting workers' labor rights, making sure they were working in a place that was safe and they were treated with dignity and respect.

44:34That was our focus. And that's what the industry's focus was. And that's what we spent 20 years doing. We still have to do it. Of course, we still have to do it. But after 20 years, we realized, isn't there more that we should be doing? And that's when we hit upon this notion of what had been the standard, what had been the aspiration, protecting workers' rights, was now the foundation, was now the minimum. And what else could we do? And what else should we do? And we said, what about the well-being of the people? What about their health? What about their their access to the financial system. And we said, isn't there more?

45:15And our foundation at Levi's had been working on these types of issues beyond what we call beyond compliance for a number of years. And we said, oh, maybe we should learn from their experience and ask the workers, what more is it that you're interested in? What more do you need? And so we did that. We started asking workers. We started doing worker surveys. And we found, with the help of the foundation in Harvard, that was helping to administer the surveys, we found that workers were interested in health. They were interested in more education. They were interested in equality. They were interested in being part of the financial system.

45:51And so we worked with our vendors, our suppliers, and with local organizations to bring these kinds of programs to the workers. We've been doing that now for about five or six years. We're reaching literally nearly 200 ,000 workers who are making our products and improving their well-being. How do you measure it? Is it working? We measure it through with Harvard going back. They're doing a longitudinal study, so they're tracking people. We're beginning to get the results now. It's starting to reveal there is more happiness. There is more well-being on the part of the workers. But we're also realizing there's other things that are really important to that, such as you mentioned, making sure that the basic rights are still being protected.

46:36So that's still very important. And making sure that our what we call our purchasing practices or our business practices with a factory are also making sure that workers have steady jobs. So Pam, how did you feel after you learnt about the treatment of the workers in Turkey? It's very disappointing, especially when you're such a big company and you actually have the means to do it right as well. There's not really an excuse to not do it right. If you earn enough money to make a good living for yourself. How can you ever explain that everyone in the supply chain that works way harder, I feel, to make all these products don't get enough and are not treated well and cannot have a union and stand up for their rights.

47:22So yeah, I feel that's really a shame. The fashion industry is one of the most untransparent industries and it's so big and there's so much money to be made. I felt very disappointed because as a consumer, you're trying to make the right decision to buy from a company that you feel is doing things responsibly. And you know, it's a bet in this world of consuming more and more. It's always difficult to find these companies. But if you feel like you found one that you like, then you feel very disappointed knowing that they're not doing what they claim to be doing, that they're not actually doing right by the workers.

48:00So I would say I felt very disappointed. I feel maybe in the system in general, but also in Levi's specifically. And is it about trust? Because when I hear these stories, I think, no, I believed in you. It also feels like putting an individual against the system. Oh, yeah. And the system of capitalism does win. Like you're trying to fight it. And sometimes you feel like you're succeeding. And then you feel like happy if you can support small brands and they're turning to doing like really good stuff and then sometimes you're buying something you're like okay I did find this like this bigger company but they're doing good things which makes a lot of impact and then when they turn out not to it does feel like you failed against the system.

48:45How's the case coming along because it's a long game right you're not going to find out immediately what's happening? It's going to be a long game yes first the card is going to see if it's really a valid lawsuit like looking at the process and like if all the boxes are ticked and then they're gonna look at the content of the lawsuit so it's gonna be yeah for sure next year before we know anything about it but what i would like most is that levi's is actually gonna do something about the working conditions because that's the most important thing i wouldn't want them to like if they would change their marketing and be transparent about it that's also very important but i would much rather have them keep on to what they're saying and actually make it true.

49:25And one of the other reasons to join this is because I feel like Levi has such a strong brand. So if they're made responsible for what they're doing, I hope this can be true for a lot of other brands as well. Do you think that consumers do have the power to change things? Oh, it's a very difficult one. I always try and tell people Like, okay, change can actually start with you. I do feel that. Like, I feel if you're really believing it and you're taking little steps and everyone's taking little steps, we're also making progress. But in the end, that's not going to cut it. We do need big changes.

50:01We do need laws. We do need big companies to show up and take responsibility. Because as a consumer, as we also discussed already, you only know what you can actually read and access. And that's not the whole story. Are you wearing jeans right now? I'm not actually, because I'm about to go to a sports class. But if it would be a normal day, I would definitely wear jeans, yes. I thought you were going to say I'm cured of my denim habit over the Levi's lawsuit. No, because that's also not what I want, of course. I do still want to wear denim, but I just want to know that it's responsibly made. Thank you for listening to Wardrobe Crisis.

50:37You can find the show notes for each episode over on our website, thewardrobecrisis.com. I hope you've enjoyed the show. I'd love you to help us spread the word. Tell a friend, share on social media, or leave us a rating and review in Apple Podcasts. It really helps new listeners find us on the app. You can get in touch with us on social media. The show is on Instagram, at The Wardrobe Crisis. And I'm on there too. I'm at Mrs Press.