Who Made Your Clothes? Cambodia Edition

0:00For me, fashion is a verb. So it's true fashion. You're listening to Wardrobe Crisis with Clare Press. Join me every week as we look at sustainability, ethics and the business and madness of fashion.

0:16All right, let's talk about money. How much income do you need to survive? How about to thrive? What does that look like for you? Obviously, survival is the essentials. It's a roof over your head, food on the table. Thriving, I imagine, is considerably more. Maybe you want to make sure you can take a nice holiday. I don't know. Buy some treats, save up, make some investments. Obviously, all this depends on the cost of living where you are. But the basics don't change. As in, you need to be able to strike a reasonable balance between money coming in and money going out. This series is about workers in the garment supply chain, and we're diving into the story of different producing countries.

1:02So this week, Cambodia, where about a million people are employed making apparel and footwear. Now, if you missed our recent episode on the Philippines, do go back and check it out because it's a good partner. Now, when I recorded my chat last year with Thola Muin from Cambodian Labour Rights Organisation Central, the Cambodian government was in negotiations around setting a new minimum wage, and it was going to be effective from January 2026. The old rate was US$208 a month. The new one? 210. Just a$2 increase from 2025. The official line was that the decision reflected the government's commitment to gradual, predictable wage adjustments, balancing industrial competitiveness with worker welfare, but the unions had proposed$232 a month.

1:55So does the new rate balance competitiveness with social protection? Or does it just perpetuate the plight of too many Cambodian workers who simply don't earn enough to get by? A report by Central and Action Aid Australia reckons 65 % of workers feel their wage is insufficient, and in 2022, 80 % of respondents said they had to borrow money to pay for fundamental daily needs. So which brands are making our clothes in Cambodia? With low labour costs and a skilled workforce, the country's become a magnet for the likes of Nike, Adidas, H &M and Inditex. That's what we're focused on in this interview with Tola.

2:39He's a legendary human rights defender who has himself been in the eye of the storm. Back in 2016, Cambodian prosecutors sought criminal charges against Holler and two other civil society leaders. One was an advocate for press freedom and the other was an activist monk. Human rights groups said the charges were baseless and politically motivated and over 100 international organisations called on the government to drop the charges, which did happen. But I tell you this because it goes to show that doing this work, speaking truth, standing up for workers is often dragged into politics and it can be high risk.

3:19Anyway, to get to chat with Tola about rights and wages and current garment industry challenges in Cambodia was fab. Before we get into it, I did just want to shout out to a couple of smaller brands that for many years have been leading the way for ethical fashion production in Cambodia because we are talking about the big guys in this conversation with Tola. Okay one is Dorsu. I've watched them for ages. They make beautiful basics. They're actually Khmer owned and operated. They pay living wages. Their factory operates on a 40-hour work week with secure contracts, the right to collective bargaining and the kinds of leave policies that you'd expect in consuming countries.

4:00So check them out, Dorsu, D-O-R-S-U. The other is Outland Denim, an Australian company that I've written about in my books. And actually, the founder, James Bartle, was on the podcast in the early days. But their factory in Cambodia is Khmer managed, and it takes ethical conditions very seriously. You can read all about it in Where Next, chapter three. Okay, let's hang out with Thola Muen, Executive Director for the Centre for Alliance of Labour and Human Rights in Cambodia. And if you value this series, please do help me share it. And of course, you can get behind my substack for all of that good stuff.

4:38Welcome to the Wardrobe Crisis podcast, Thola Muen. How was my pronunciation? That's correct. You are the Executive Director of Central, an NGO that advocates for transparent and accountable governance for the fulfilment of workers and human rights in Cambodia. You say your mission is to see Cambodian people living with human dignity and in peace. Tell us about that. Well, that's absolutely true. I call Central, it's just like easy for the audience, just only the acronym from the full name, which is Centre for Alliance of Labour and Human Rights. The vision statement of Central, it's just exactly extracted from the Article 52 of the Cambodian Constitution.

5:20We really envisioned that Cambodian people must be the master of the country, living in peace with the respect of human rights. Cambodia used to be a communist country, and then we signed peace agreement in Paris. That's what we call Paris Peace Agreement in 1991. The country committed to turn from communist to democracy, and then turn from the planned market to the free market. So that's why there was a big carrot provided by the democratic ally country like US and Europe. At the time, we called multi-fiber agreement. It's provided to the country who finish, who end civil war, and then looking at the democratic development.

6:05So that's why it was a big carrot to attract the international... A big carrot to attract. Yeah. Okay, so multi-fiber agreement. This is one of the reasons why garment sectors were established across Southeast Asia and other parts of the world. First of all, we had the multi-fibre arrangement, and this began in the mid-70s. Originally intended as a short-term measure, it imposed quotas on the amount of clothing and textiles that so-called developing countries could export to so-called developed ones. Essentially, it protected the garment industry in the West. so in the 1970s 80s and early 90s in countries like the US and Australia and in Europe we made most of our clothing locally and the multi-fibre arrangement helped prop that system up.

6:51In 1995 it was replaced by the WTO's agreement on textiles and clothing which began the process of relaxing the quotas. Then in 2005 this all really kicked off with the new multi-fibre agreement. This, as Tolla says, really incentivized imports. And it was designed to remove textile trade barriers internationally. So it sped up the race offshore, opening up new markets and lengthening supply chains in the process. It's like school here. Anyway, now you know, you cared. Now you know. That was a big incentive for the country to attract the foreign investment. And then the government manufacturer just come to invest in the country because they got free quota.

7:38And in the return, those manufacturers have to respect the fundamental freedom and rights of the people by Cambodian ratify all the core conventions of ILO. That's the requirement. So they have to ratify the core conventions of the international labor organization. So that's the history of labor movement in Cambodia. So the Labour Law was passed in 1997, but we started organising the trade union from 1995, using the convention, using the Cambodian constitution to organise people into trade union. According to Fashion Revolution Cambodia, which began in 2016, I just discovered, around a million people work in the garment sector.

8:21Many are migrant workers who come to Phnom Penh from rural areas, and up to 90 % are women. Does that sound about right? The industry, I can say it's considered as the backbone for the country economy. We have over 1 ,000 factories. Really? Yeah, employ around 1 million people. And what's the population? The Cambodian population is over 18 million. Working age is around 10 million. From the report, we can see that 79.66 % employment rate in the country, but 53 % of the employed people, the poor work, kind of poor work, informal work, work without pay, and then... Work without pay. Yeah. That shouldn't be a phrase.

9:13Exactly. And then around 15 % of the employed people living under the poverty line. Even you are employed, but you're still living under the poverty line. And another burden is 51 % of the adult population are in debt to the microfinance, to the bank. Really? Yeah. Sorry, so over half the population is indebted to microfinances. So basically getting loans with high interest from small players because they can't afford to live. Exactly. Really? Yeah. Because of the healthcare, it's not there. There's not the education, even it's free in the paper, but people still spend on the education for their kids.

9:56So this is the big burden for the people to accept any condition that they are provided in the industry. So if you look at the population in the garment sector, like now we consider garment, food, wear and travel goods. So this around 1 million, this population who migrate from rural provinces, over 80 % of them are female. Some even cannot read or write their name. So they are completely vulnerable. And then at the same time, they have the debt. So this is no way that the people... They don't even understand what they're signing up for. What are the reasons for rural migration? Why are they leaving the rural areas to come into the...

10:43Because there is not much development in the rural provinces. They migrate from the farmer family. There is not enough agriculture infrastructure. So people cannot survive with their farming. But migration in Cambodia, I consider as the forced migration. The migration by force, not migration by choice. Pushed off the land. Yeah, because of the land, not enough land, not enough income, poverty. So people have to decide to leave the community either to the town or either to the other country nearby. What sorts of factories are we talking about today and what are they making and who for? We start first.

11:28What are some of the brands? Yeah, those brands who source from Cameroon, like, for example, like, in the text, Adidas, Levi's still small percentage. Uniqlo, they are from Japan. And Puma still there. H &M still there. Gap still there. And VS from the American brand. VF. Yeah, VF. Okay, what happened in 2014? Can you talk us through those very significant protests by garment workers? Well, there was no standard minimum wage mechanism before 2014. No minimum wage mechanism at all in Cambodia? Yeah. Which, just if you're listening to this, think back to what we said about the multifibre agreement that had spurred industrial development.

12:16And yet you've got like 20, 25 years before a minimum wage was established. Yeah, yeah. So there was no mechanism to set up minimum wage. The minimum wage just only increased when the people stood up the street, top the street. So in 2009, I decided to initiate the study on the possible minimum wage figure. And then that finding was used by the trade union for their wage campaign. It was not successful enough because the minimum wage was increased like$5 and then kept for five years. But that moment just like tell all the key actors, for example, like ILO and the government, the policymaker, this is the issues for the industry.

13:07So then in 2013, we had the national election. both ruling party and the opposition party took the minimum wage as the political agenda for the campaign. So the opposition party, they put$150 per month as the promised minimum wage if they become the ruling party. And then the result of the election was really clear that the people choose the opposition party more. and then the election committee announced that the ruling party win while the people may consider themselves choosing the opposition party and then people campaigned for 160. So there was a dozen people were killed and arrested, like 23 people were arrested.

13:57Killed with rubber bullets. Yeah, with the rubber bullets. We'll share some links if you want to look into the show notes at reporting around this at the time and very, very upsetting imagery of protesters being violently suppressed. You know, I was the witness. I witnessed with many places during the campaign. Workers did not have any political agenda at all. Their agenda was clearly about wage. That's what I talked with H &M at that time. H &M? H &M. they said about living wage. I said, okay, you are talking about living wage, but people are talking about surviving wage. So for me, I would put in two different definitions.

14:47For the minimum wage, it's just only the wage which is enough for surviving. For the living wage, enough for the living and some amount for saving. This is what we understand. If you are talking about living wage, this is not something that people are looking. But it's nigh our gratitude to hear that the brand want to pay living wage. But now, before living wage, you should pay surviving wage for the people. So what happened after those protests? Well, after the arrest and killing people, one person still missing. One person is still missing? Yeah. Arrested and no one knows? No. So was this a union leader?

15:36Just disappear. Was this a union leader? He is not a member of the trade union, but he just joined the campaign. As I said, the workers were not coming to the violence. The workers wanted to get paid. Yeah. That's it. They just wanted to get paid. But there are quite a lot of speculation. There's quite a lot of manipulation in the campaign just to show that the campaign was violent. But as a witness, I can see that workers are completely innocent. And then after the arrest, after the kill, there was a campaign to the brand. I think without the brand intervention, that still brand, they have completely strong leverage to the authority and supplier to put pressures on the government to release all those people.

16:25And then... So they did do this? They did do that. Including H &M? Exactly. Inditex? Agentum and the other major brands in the techs who source from Cambodia. Then the government decided to release the people, but they also decided to set up the minimum wage adjustment mechanism by annual basis. Okay, union leaders are currently demanding that the minimum wage for 2026 be increased to US dollars 232 per month. And a joint statement to which you're a signatory read, This is not merely a request, it's an urgent necessity grounded in the real costs of survival, like you say, for Cambodian workers and the demonstrated economic capacity of the country.

17:09The current wage is$208 a month, and you say that's far below the threshold for a dignified life. This figure was determined by the research that the union conducted, initially approved by everyone. Unfortunately, some unions, they might receive pressure from the authority. They also have a seat in the National Minimum Wage Committee. So they give up the right to collective bargaining by saying that because of the U.S. tariff and border conflict between Thai and Cambodia, so they decided not to negotiate about wage, let the government decide whatever amount. For me, I would respect the union decision, but the only question that I have is whether the decision raised by the union had been consulted widely with their member.

18:05Well, it also says, according to this report, that actually households in urban areas require$417 a month to secure basic but a decent standard of living, including essential needs and social security. So double. Exactly. And then the living costs. The living costs are higher. So people cannot, while the weight is not high enough, but the living cost is very high. And again, as I said, like 51 % of the adult population are in debt. Okay, Violet. I wanted to mention a case that had a lot of attention. It involves Nike. In July 2020, Violet Apparel, a garment factory in Cambodia producing for international brands, suddenly closed, leaving nearly 1 ,300 workers without jobs and legally owed compensation.

18:56Former Violet Apparel workers and their union were demanding a total of US$1.4 million in unpaid compensation and damages, which workers are actually entitled to under Cambodian law. When the Business and Human Rights Resource Centre invited brands reportedly buying from the factory to respond, Nike was like, no, no, we didn't source from Violet. Not since 2006. Although Labour groups said, no, we've got evidence that Violet apparel workers were producing clothing for Nike for many years, at least through the end of 2019. Five years later, the workers are still waiting for their legally entitled severance pay.

19:37Now, while this example is obviously egregious, Tola says a more widespread problem is weak unions or even unions run by, wait for it, employers. What? Nike, they still have percentage sourcing from Cambodia. So very common about the case of violation is about the union busting. Even Cambodian ratified the core convention 87 and 98. But the implementation of the FOA, I mean the freedom of association in a country is still very weak, very poor compared to the other country. The current trade union law definitely is the toll to weaken especially the independent union. I mean it's very shameful when we are talking about union.

20:26We must talk about independent union and the yellow union. So the Yellow Union, we refer to the union who are controlled by the management or who are controlled by the political party. It's not really a union then, is it? That's formed by the management. But that's not a union. That's not a union. That's why we call it Yellow Union. And is that very common? Quite common in Cambodia. I think they also extend that tactic to the other country in the region. Okay, here's the deal on yellow unions. This is from Human Rights Watch. The labour movement in Cambodia has been deeply divided since its inception in the 1990s between independent unions and yellow or so-called instant noodle unions.

21:15Yellow unions are affiliated with or controlled by the Cambodian People's Party, CPP, or by employers. And they typically enjoy a faster and easier registration process, which is popularly likened to making a two-minute cup of instant noodles. Now the term yellow is actually used in this context internationally. It's etymology possibly derived from France where at the beginning of the 20th century workers organisations called themselves yellow to make sure they stood out from the communist red ones. Who knew? But broadly, yellow unions means those that are too focused on protecting the interests of the employer.

21:53So then brands can say, well, we respect the unions. Even though the unions are run by management. The branch is like washing their hands and saying, okay, we respect the union. We cannot interfere the union affair. And then the yellow union definitely, they got registered with the Ministry of Labour. So the brand say, well, we respect the domestic law. We cannot interfere the domestic law. So this is the way that, again, I recall the message that I talked with H &M in their headquarter in Stockholm. They said, well, the minimum wage has been decided in 2014. They said, well, the minimum wage was decided by the government.

22:33It became the government policy. It's now$100 and people demand$160. So we cannot violate the law. I said, one, there is no law prohibiting the business to pay their worker more than the law required. For example, like the Martin T. Live Cambodia allow people to take 90 days off. But it's not illegal if the company provides 100 days or more than 100 days. So let me just come back to this. You are in contact in your role with brands. You get access to their, you can go to Stockholm and meet with H &M. You can talk with these colleagues, if you want to call them that, about the situation. So you know what brands are saying, what kinds of excuses they make.

23:20What's your feeling on why brands broadly don't step up and pay more? I mean, in the corrupted system country, that's why when we start to have MFA, ILO and the World Bank set up Better Factory Cambodia because it's clearly show that they cannot trust the government system or the state system to make sure that all those international instruments are in place. But isn't this one of the reasons brands love to produce in countries where they don't have to? Yeah. It's like, I know this sounds very cynical, but it's obviously the case that it's attractive for brands to produce in countries where wages are kept low.

24:07where organizing is kept to a minimum and where the power is not in the hands of workers. This is the business. I mean, I can say, you know, the brand, if they don't receive enough pressure, they would do anything. They would do nothing unless they receive enough pressure. For example, If you look at the bigger pictures, in Cambodia, the brand responds when there was a dozen of people got killed. They respond to the violence. Yeah, they respond to that because it affects their image, their business. They respond to Bangladesh when the building collapsed and that's the pressure for them. So without any pressure, the brand would not do anything.

24:57Of course, I think they really know that they have strong leverage, but they are trying to hide their responsibility by saying they are not interfering with the national politics or national laws. You're about to go to Switzerland to do work with the UN? Yeah. Yeah. So you're in these circles, you see all sides of this, you see the workers, you see the brands, you see the policymakers, you see the international NGOs and organisations. How does it make you feel then to know really that brands are not going to take action unless they're pressured? When you're sitting across the room for them, like presumably some of them are your friends because you work with them.

25:41I mean, that's my question, I think, Tola, because I, I have friends and brands and know that there are good people in places that may be upholding bad systems. It's not like the people are all terrible. And yet the system is terrible and it's not changing. How do you get through that? How do you feel about it? To be honest, I mean, sometimes I feel so much frustrated. Even that's why I said brand, they wrote a very nice code of conduct. And if we screen out, we zoom out the code of conduct, there is a clause saying that whatever, like in terms of freedom association, in terms of women rights in the workplace, if the local law provides protection less than the code of conduct, they require to apply the code of conduct.

26:34If the crocodile provide protection, less protection than the domestic law, they refer to the domestic law. But the real practice is just like the paper. But how do you respect them? How do you like forgive them? Only, I think we have no choice. Because as I said, like we are living in the corrupted system where the judicial system is completely corrupted and political influence. So the only way is we build up the solidarity among the regional and the group between the people who produce the product and the people who buy the product. Without this kind of solidarity, we cannot make the brand speak anything.

27:23I mean, you have to just keep negotiating, don't you? That's the job. Yeah, that's the job for the labor movement. I mean, believe me, if there is no pressure, the brand is going to sleep. For example, I would race again to H &M. I'm sorry to mention H &M, but this is only the example that I want to show how brand would ignore the responsibility. After pressure about wage, H &M come out with saying that, okay, H &M looking at paying the living wage, and they even organized Living Vague Summit in Phnom Penh. Did they? Yeah, they did. When? I think in 2016 something. Then when Cambodian government dissold the main opposition party in late 2017.

28:15So we have never heard about Living Vague spoken by H &M anymore. So this is clear. For me, brands are also hiding under the closing space or shrinking space. But at the same time, we have no choice. We need to maintain the unity among the region. And also, we know that the UN mechanism is not binding. It's just only a shaming mechanism. Shaming mechanism. Yeah, shaming mechanism. even due and resolution I low resolution it's just like there is no penalty for any state who fail to comply with the recommendation with the convention and so on I'm pulling faces at you because I feel like oh it's so frustrating the brands get to keep making record profits hide behind kind words sign a few non-binding agreements knowing that there are no consequences have a summit have a summit and put on pen talk about how much they'd love to work towards a living wage then do nothing and get away with it that my my word talking about that when i got so much frustrated uh in 2014 when people got killed people got imprisoned because of just only demanding the surviving wage i get all those code conduct all those brand mechanism just only commercial propaganda we what we want to see is we want to see the action not just only talk but again i mean we still hold them accountable as long as we are united so that's why we look at the enforceable brand agreement and also we advocate for the human right due diligence laws i cannot say it's a big victory but it's something that we we see the new option that we we might be able to hold the brand accountable because let's just very briefly touch on that and then i want to end on something else but just on the csdd which is the corporate sustainability due diligence directive from the eu we are seeing it being watered down but what's interesting to me being in this forum in thailand surrounded by union activists and leaders from southeast asia but also the world is that you're talking about this as a real mechanism for hope for being able to enforce better protections and better behavior from brands and I think that in in Europe or perhaps in Australia when we talk about it I don't think we've been thinking about how workers and union leaders view this as a real change maker it's actually a tool that is really necessary.

31:00Interrupting one more time from the edit suite. If you haven't heard of the CSDDD, it's a new EU law and it applies from mid-2029 and will require big European companies, so firms with more than 5 ,000 employees and a turnover above 1.5 billion euros, to identify and address any adverse human rights and environmental impacts of their actions inside and outside Europe. And the new rules will also apply to large non-EU companies if their turnover reaches the threshold inside the EU. So it is a big deal. For me, I think it's important to have this kind of mechanism because the brand have been living and operating with free bill for many years.

31:50So they have nice code of conduct, they have global free agreement, they sign Bangladesh Accords and so on. But those kind of mechanism are not binding. We expect that the new supply chain are going to put some penalty, both civil penalty and we expect the criminal penalty for the business who involved in human rights violation or liberal rights violation or a violation of the environmental protection also. But I can see the brands still have influence to the state in some states. Yeah, the brands don't want it because Is mandatory human rights due diligence. They're not allowed to just have a meeting and then do nothing.

32:31Yeah, yeah. All right, I want to end on a difficult but I think really important and under-discussed aspect of what the future holds, please, Tola. I want to talk about automation because we talk a lot about what happens when a brand pulls out of a country when wages rise and then they chase cheaper production elsewhere. But what happens if there's no production? I'd love to hear what unions are thinking about this. with a very real prospect of brands simply replacing workforces with robots. That has been discussion and we don't see the proper preparation for that so far. I feel it's real, but somehow I feel like they are trying to use this as the threat for the worker.

33:19You better comply, otherwise we'll have no jobs for you. take our rubbish wages because otherwise we'll have no jobs yeah that'll be worse yeah if you complain i mean you you need to think about your future whether you don't have a job now you have a job and you have some income be grateful yeah you should be grateful uh but at the same time i agree that um we see the climate change people got affected like the factory got flooded the heat inside the factory campus and so on. But there should be the responsibility of the brand, not just only wash the hand and poke away. They, you acknowledge or not, but the brand leverage to the policy maker also, because they have been doing that to influence the state and encourage the state to deregulate in order for the benefit of the business.

34:12So there should be a proper preparation. And then now the people, they did not take serious measure in terms of environmental toll impact assessment when the business, for example, like if you go to Cambodia and you go around the factory area, you're going to smell the sewage system and the way that the factory just flowed. the liquid waste is completely affected. Effluent into the rivers. Affect the community living around. Not proper chemical treatment. Yeah. So this is a kind of the environmental care. They cannot just wash their hands, but they need to have a proper preparation. If they want to replace a human being by the robot, there should be a proper preparation.

35:09It sounds like you're saying there are more pressing matters right now that are not addressed before we start panicking that the robots are coming yeah it has been disgusting for a couple years already um if i not wrong but it's still there until i feel like i just like something crazy come to me like is it only the threat to the but for now you focus on the workers yeah yeah i'd like to end on what we can do if you're to this and you are a consumer of I don't know some clothes made in Cambodia some sneakers and you're thinking I want to be part of positive change what can you do in order to hold the brand accountable for the the rise of the people the welfare of the people is very important to be connected between the producer and the consumer.

36:09I would encourage the consumer in the exporting country not just to look at the report from the brand. They should also look at the report from the workers, from Better Work, Better Factory Cambodia. You need to get the real information to make sure that the brand are not lying to you. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. Thank you for listening to Wardrobe Crisis. You can find the show notes for each episode over on our website, thewardrobecrisis.com. I hope you've enjoyed the show. I'd love you to help us spread the word.

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