Happy 20th Birthday Copenhagen Fashion Week! A catchup with Cecilie Thorsmark

0:00For me, fashion is a verb. So it's true fashion. You're listening to Wardrobe Crisis with Clare Press. Join me every week as we look at sustainability, ethics and the business and madness of fashion. Hello again. I hope you've been enjoying our series on human rights in the fashion supply chain. It's back next week with a focus on Cambodia. But I'm interrupting it to publish this short, joyful, candid chat with my friend Cecilia Torsmark, who is the CEO of Copenhagen Fashion Week. I wanted to get this to you this week because fashion's eyes are on the Danish capital as the Spring Summer 27 shows are in full swing.

0:40I'm not there. I got FOMO. But I was there last season when we recorded this between the shows. It's actually the second time that Cecilia's been on the podcast. The first was back in 2022. It was episode 151 and I'll put a link in the notes if you want to go back and listen to her ambitions for the event. I think it's really become an example to fashion weeks everywhere around how these types of industry showcases can take sustainability seriously. I don't normally invite guests back, but in this case I did want to, because it's a milestone for Copenhagen Fashion Week, which turns 20 this year.

1:20Now I'm on their sustainability advisory board. It is unpaid, so this is not SponCon, but I am proud of that work and I'm just a fan of Danish fashion in general and what Cecilia and her fabulous team have built. up for discussion. How is the language of sustainability evolving? And what about enthusiasm for the whole idea of sustainable fashion? Is it true that momentum is stalling? And if so, how do those of us who really do care about it keep going? And why is that important? Please do share this episode if you like it and let me know what you think. I'd love to hear from you. I'm at Mrs. Press on Instagram and Wardrobe Crisis is on Substack, which is where you can go to support the show.

2:05Paid subscribers power the podcast and help keep it ad free and free for all. And actually, just a reminder, if you do subscribe to disable auto renew in your settings. It's like this annoying feature of the platform that it just automatically puts everyone's settings on auto renew. Ugh, big tech. Creators can't do anything about it. I only just found this out. Anyway, it is solvable. Thank you, as always, to my beloved supporters. Okay, let's catch Cecilia Torsmark between the shows at Copenhagen Fashion Week. It's cool that I get to say this. You are the first, I think, person who's ever been back on this podcast.

2:46Welcome back, Torsmark. I'm What an honor. You know, I love you. But also, there's a reason that we're doing this, and it is because. It's very exciting because it's 20 years of Copenhagen Fashion Week. It is. Happy birthday. Thank you. It's quite a milestone. Absolutely. We're growing up. Actually, what does 20 mean? 21 means something. 20 means, I think, long enough to call yourself established. In the Fashion Week ecosystem, some have been around since the 80s. we've got previous episodes that talk about the history of different fashion weeks if we talk about the big four but in terms of new players I can tell you that Australian fashion week turned 25 I think last year 20 years is a good innings so well done thank you you've been CEO since 2018 I'm gonna just ask you a cute question because I like it what makes you proud what makes me proud I'm proud of the transition of Copenhagen fashion week going from you know being a you know traditional showcase event featuring shows events and presentations becoming a platform with a purpose yeah a platform that can drive change that makes me proud and it's not you know it's not us achieving it that i mean it's it's not that you know that we set out goals and we made it i'm proud that the industry accepted the challenge and i'm sure that we can get more into what exactly was that challenge.

4:13But, you know, we set sustainability requirements that brands must comply with in order to be a part of our schedule. And I'm so proud that the industry accepted the challenge and also, you know, have stuck with us. Even in, you know, in times of immense financial pressure and maybe sustainability is no longer high up on the agenda, but they still accept our standards as this is a minimum baseline for participation so I'm proud of the industry good me too I mean sometimes I'm really frustrated with this industry I've got to say so when I said me too I'm proud of being part of Copenhagen Fashion Week and seeing that you can I want to say this thing which sounds a bit it's not like I wrote it down just popped into my head but I feel like you can be small and mighty you can be small and lead and I think being small and nimble and not establishment allows you to be a disruptor so yes I do feel that Copenhagen Fashion Week is a kind of beacon of hope in this space but last time we recorded this podcast it was 2022 and we were just coming out of the pandemic do you remember that you're talking about being in your garden shed slash office yes exactly which I haven't practically used since we thought we're Anyway, that's another story.

5:33Go on. Well, lucky us that we don't have to be confined into the home. But that time was obviously a very disruptive time. We were coming out of the pandemic. And here's one I prepared earlier. I was listening back to our conversation, Cecilia, and I was thinking about that time and when there was this enormous momentum behind let's use this pause, this forced pause to make change. Let's disrupt this whole system and rebuild it in a beautiful way where sustainability is at its core. and at that time I mean can you remember that whole thing with business of fashion for example it was called um rewiring the fashion system the fashion system and hundreds and hundreds of brands and creatives and councils and everybody signed up to this vision yeah but then it was great didn't do it no no so thinking back to that time and that push for momentum we're now in I would argue I don't know if there are parallels, but there's still really tricky circumstances.

6:30Like if you think about geopolitical strife, climate inaction, I don't know, insert problem here. How are you feeling looking back on that time and looking at today's challenges? Where are we now, do you think? Sadly, I'm feeling less optimistic. As you said, there was a lot of momentum back in 2022, apparently when we did the podcast. So a lot of momentum and sustainability was still, it was still, you know, on the agenda and the brands were excited about it. And it was like they were expecting that ultimately, you know, it would be the more attractive option to become a more responsible brand.

7:10And that there'd been some kind of reset and people didn't need the old more, more, more. Yeah, totally. And as I think, I think you phrased it perfectly because I think, you know, the picture today is just so much more complex. There's so much uncertainty in the world. There's not really a demand for sustainable fashion. And if you put it frankly, it's super expensive and it's super complex. and if consumers are not demanding it at least not to the degree that we would have hoped and if the industry is constantly or often met with backlash from the media criticizing i'm going to pick you up on what you said there because you said there's not the demand for sustainable fashion that we might have thought was there.

8:02Is that true? It is. Yes. It is. It's very true. I mean, customers are not pushing for it, are they? No, it's not. I mean, it's still just, it's not the main, it's not the main driver of why you purchase fashion. You want fashion that looks good, that feels comfortable to wear, that has a certain quality. And of course, quality and sustainability can go hand in hand if you look at it from the longevity perspective. But, you know, a B Corp certified brand isn't necessarily the more attractive option just because it's B Corp certified. I've heard so many examples of, I've recently brands saying, you know, we got the B Corp certification, but we might not go ahead with it.

8:50It's too expensive. It's too time consuming. And the consumer does not care. It's awful. I don't want to say this. I don't want to say this. And we're looking at each other. We both have this very painful look in our eyes because, you know. Because we want it. And I'm sure that if you're listening to Wardrive Crisis, you're thinking, well, I want it. But actually, broadly, we know that it hasn't been a selling point. And they talk about the values action gap, for example, that people say they want something, but then they don't want to pay for it. But I think this idea that sustainability, well, two things.

9:24One, that we can make it sexy. Two, that it sells. they're actually hollow promises really it's complicated i don't know i don't know if i know the answer but there's part of me that thinks you just have to do the right thing because you want to do the right thing not because you're going to win points by doing it and the customer's going to say round of applause thank you i'll get that shirt and i'll and actually this is what i think as i'm saying it i'm i'm figuring out this is what i think we've also seen from some brands of course not all and not just brands big companies in all sectors It's a massive walk back on CSR in the kind of Trump world.

10:01And to me, that's just evidence that you never meant it in the first place. So you actually have to mean it in the first place. And you have to be doing it for reasons that are other than a marketing advantage. Or an incentive, a financial incentive, because it might not transition into one. I'm going to tell you something that Dita from Ghani shared with me at the opening drinks the other day. She was talking about the transition to vegan leather and telling customers that they were going to use the more sustainable alternative that was not animal leather. And the reaction was actually disappointing.

10:36The customer was not there yet. And it was more trouble than it was worth, might we say? I mean, I don't know. I'm putting words in our mouth. No, but I mean, and I think that's a stellar example. Another stellar example is also brands that have implemented or tried to implement new business models like rental or reselling. And it's, I mean, from a financial perspective, it hasn't proven to be a good business case yet, sadly. So we also see brands, you know, rolling those sort of initiatives back. If we accept the complexity, because I do want to say that it really does depend on the brand. there are some brands that are born from sustainability who remain extremely dedicated to their values-based vision but we do certainly see with some of the bigger brands a watering down of or a quiet walking back from for example 2030 commitments that is I'm going to say depressing so coming back to that question of where are we at now how do you forge forwards and continue this path that comes from you being born of a values-based vision knowing some are just with you from the start but that broadly it's getting more difficult yeah um two things that's an easy one we've had four hours sleep no two things you know of course it's it's a challenge for us to to balance some very long-term visions we have you know on behalf of the industry with the short-term realities that brands are constantly operating under i think that in itself that's a challenge for us that we need to have the answer and we need to be able to keep being very clear about why it matters.

12:16And I was talking about incentives before that the consumer isn't demanding a sustainable fashion that, okay, we have EU legislation coming up, but it's also been rolled back significantly since they announced it first. For me, it's so important to hold on to our vision because we are a very visible platform and a very important platform for the industry. And that's why I think it matters that we have requirements. Because if our system was built around, let's say, manifestos and guidelines and so forth, no one would be doing it because they wouldn't need to do it. With requirements comes an actual incentive to change.

13:03because you want to do a show at Copenhagen Fashion Week for other reasons, you know, to get international attention and sales obviously also and to have a thriving business. And that's where the incentive comes back in, that you have to live up to certain criteria and you have to document these criteria. Actually, Cecilia, this is a very interesting way to look at things and it makes so much sense. When we live in a civil society, there are rules that we obey. if you want to be part of a community that thrives. Let's just take, for example, a city. You want to live in a good city? You're going to obey the laws that are set to make sure that everybody within that community has a decent trot.

13:44And I'm thinking, for example, you know, there are parking rules, there are rules about how you deal with your bike, there are rules about rubbish collection. And generally speaking, if you want things to function properly, you abide by this framework because it serves everyone equally. And actually, why shouldn't we? I want to say rules-based order sounds not very appealing but actually we kind of need that in fashion everyone needs to know what the rules are and then act accordingly so that it becomes a workable situation and that's in a way what you're doing you say come and join the fashion week these are the this this is the framework you might not say the rules but you're saying this is how we do it well we and this is why it works we we verbalize that it is requirements and it's requirements that must be, you know, with documentation that has to be submitted.

14:33And we have an external screening committee that assesses the documentation and who ultimately holds the power to either accept or decline a brand. In most cases, luckily, we managed to accept the brands because we work so hard with the brands all year round. Talk about the progress with the minimum standards. How have they been strengthened? So we implemented the first set of sustainability requirements, the 1.0 version, you could say, in 2023. And that came into effect. And those were the standards that brands had to live up to for the following two years, so four seasons. But already, when we had implemented that first set of minimum standards, we started looking at the updates, the revisions that were needed for the 2.0 version.

15:26So we worked on that throughout 2023 and 2024. We did some seasons of piloting the updated requirements, and they have just gone into effect as of this Fashion Week. So it's a 2.0 of strengthened and more rigid minimum standards. And there are also new standards. A good example, or I think the best way to put it, is that many of our minimum standards have gone from like a commitment level to an implementation level. So before a minimum standard could be that, you know, we are committed to XYZ. And today you have actually, with the new minimum standards, you have implemented XYZ. So that's also our way of working alongside the industry and together with the industry, making sure that, you know, that we do it both in a pace, but also in the right order.

16:29And that it's okay to start from a commitment perspective. But of course, we want to reach the implementation phase as well. So that's been the main change. And then we've added a minimum standard on circular business models. In your speech at the opening cocktail, you very candidly talked about the challenges as well as the successes. And you said, basically, when you put your head above water, someone's always going to try and find fault. And what you actually said was scrutiny and criticism are important and really nothing to fear unless you're doing things wrong. What happened with the Danish Consumer Ombudsman last year and how did it end up being a constructive process?

17:09I think that's a really good question. And I'm really happy to touch upon this subject because, you know, as I said in the speech, you know, being under scrutiny, of course, it's never comfortable, but it's okay. And we need criticism in our industry. We need it from the media, from activists, from an ombudsman and from other institutions. It's okay to raise questions regarding other people's work. And it's okay to look into it. And as I also said, unless you're doing things wrong, you don't have anything to fear. We have, since the Danish Consumer Ombudsman put out guidelines many years ago on greenwashing, we've been, of course, adhering strictly to those guidelines, making sure that we don't communicate in a way that could be misleading.

17:56So when this complaint regarding us and greenwashing was submitted to the Danish Consumer Ombudsman, I felt very comfortable from the beginning because I knew that we had abided by the rules. But of course, you can never predict what such process is going to be like. Who brought it? It was the Danish Consumer Council. I think it's, of course, important to say that the case was closed. The Consumer Ombudsman didn't find grounds to pursue the case. So that in itself was obviously important for us. But moreover, I found it to be a constructive dialogue that we had with the Consumer Ombudsman, a constructive process ensuring that you know we actually can continue to work with the sustainability requirements and that our work is credible.

18:41Did you not feel a bit like indignant like what no come on we're not exactly trying to sell you product we're trying to build this world and we're living in a world where language is constantly evolving and actually the use of the word sustainability is now under scrutiny and it's tricky yeah like remember when there we're sustainability editors, still got some, we might not be able to use that word anymore. Yeah. And that's because language evolves in terms of what is appropriate usage. But yeah, didn't you feel a bit like, come on, that's not fair? Yeah, for sure I did. Because I also knew that, you know, what we're doing, we're not doing like a national fashion campaign to, you know, target consumers and have them buy more clothes.

19:20You know, we don't sell one product. We are an industry event. We're B2B focused. We're not going to sell one product. And our sustainability requirements has one purpose, and that is to push the brands that we work with and not sell more clothes, but push the brands that we work with and allow us to use it as a screening tool. And we are in danger, I think, with the greenwashing conversation of creating a landscape where we can't discuss any of it because we don't have the language to use it. Of course, we need to be specific. Of course, we don't want to make misleading claims. And lots of greenwashing occurs.

19:53My goodness. Yeah. But, yeah, what are we going to do if we're gagged and we can't say sustainable? I used to always say more sustainable to be careful. But I think even that is now. I guess the point is this is an evolving space and your approach is one we can learn from too, which is be candid, talk about it and say things are changing, be honest. Yeah. And I mean, and I also think it's, as I said in the beginning, I think it's totally fine to question our work. And I also think it's, I also, I can also understand why people sometimes get confused. I mean, it is probably the most complex topic to navigate in itself.

20:36And I understand that, you know, when people read, it could be anything from interviews with me or articles on Copenhagen Fashion Week. What is highlighted a lot is, of course, our work with the sustainability requirements. But it's not something that we've been pushing for. We developed a framework and we've successfully implemented it. And there is a tension around that. There are, you know, media that pursues that story, that wants to understand why we work with the sustainability requirements that we do. So there has been, you know, it has been spotlighted. that's not the same as us trying to position ourselves as a sustainable fashion week because we are not and we will never be there's no such thing but we are a fashion week that's conscious about positive change and that's conscious about our role in the ecosystem yeah and how we can use that role to push for progress absolutely we started off talking about how hard it isn't fair because it is but it has been very encouraging to see other fashion weeks adopt this protocol I'll talk about this.

21:41What does it mean for the broader landscape? And it must be encouraging to see this momentum building. I was in Berlin when you announced that the Berlin Fashion Week had come on board. London's positive fashion arm is starting to pilot these minimum standards. What else? I'm so happy that we're ending on this positive note because there are great things to say about it. It's been one of the most encouraging developments for sure to enter into these partnerships with other fashion councils and fashion weeks. Ultimately, because sustainability only creates real impact when it's scaled beyond our own operations or our own fashion week.

22:21Yeah, so we've happily entered into partnerships with the councils of Norway, Germany, the Netherlands and the UK. Amsterdam. Yeah, Amsterdam Fashion Week as well. so they either have implemented the sustainability requirements or are in the process of implementing hello australia can you please do this it's all very well to talk about rules-based orders i would like to talk about clothes we just saw a very beautiful show it was the garment which i love which is charlotte yeah eskilsen what have been some of your favorite shows over the years what do you wear what are you wearing now what are you going to wear to your 20th anniversary dinner oh well it's two very different questions because what i'm wearing now is um is actually a mix of both the garment speaking of yeah and uh mkdt studio both long-standing favorites of mine even though i'm very reluctant normally to um mentioning favorites but uh on thursday on the other hand i'll be wearing um i'll be wearing nicholas gogo oh lovely he's so one of our amazing talents or he's he's an alumni now but he started in our cphfw new talent program and it's just my favorite the program is my favorite it's so cool i was saying that actually this podcast is weirdly danish because i come here often and if you counted all of the designer interviews i've done over the years there is a disproportionate amount of nordic talent in there all right what were you wearing to do the opening speeches beautiful i was wearing opera sport it was really pretty what would be your message to anyone with power from other fashion weeks or other fashion events around the world listening my message would be to reach out to us yeah a very tangible message shameless ad i'm happy to do it shameless ad no but really we are we're so happy to engage in these kind of partnerships not for the sake of gaining recognition around our work at all that's that's not what it what it's about but it's actually because it's such a great tool for brands to work with it serves as a common language a common direction for an industry and it provides it's sort of like an a to z guide for a brand that you know because sustainability is complex but we map out you know the most important minimum standards throughout the value chain and it's great to work with i think the fact that that framework's already in existence We're always making new protocols and new agreements.

24:46Actually just work with what is in existence because the work's been done. Yeah, and we're happy to share. Love that. Thank you so much for taking time out to talk to us, Cecilia. Of course, Claire. Happy, happy here. Thank you for listening to Wardrobe Crisis. You can find the show notes for each episode over on our website, thewardrobecrisis.com. I hope you've enjoyed the show. I'd love you to help us spread the word. tell a friend share on social media or leave us a rating and review in apple podcasts it really helps new listeners find us on the app you can get in touch with us on social media the show is on instagram at the wardrobe crisis and i'm on there too i'm at mrs press