Heights Founder: How to Optimise Your Brain - Dan Murray

0:00We Have A Meeting:The doctor in the UK learns about nutrition for one hour in their seven-year training. So my journey started with chronic anxiety and like depression, whiskey, weed, anything that would fucking knock me out. So my name is Dan Murray. The problem I solve is I suppose I want people to feel great. Wellness is overwhelming and confusing and there's tons of products everywhere. But your brain is an organ in your body. Your house is on fire. I spent£120 on these three supplements. Three? Someone like Brian Johnson, who I want to see. The more longevity stuff he does, the more you're like, I'd just rather die.

0:39We Have A Meeting:I got this email from Stephen Fry. So gave him this code. He became our first customer. He's still a customer. I don't feel like I'm that interested anymore. That's a really bad place to psychologically be. Maybe it's time for me to move on with this thing. But is that success actually making you happy? Or is it holding you back? and it's quite a trapped feeling. So I think the question of like, what happens if I succeed? I think it's a really interesting one to ponder.

1:08Dan Murray:Before we get started with the episode, our books are now open. If you need help getting in front of the right people, finding your dream customers or winning new business, we might be able to help. Why not outsource your sales to We Have A Meeting? Just go to wehaveameeting.com. Dan, welcome to the show. Thank you, mate. We always start off the same way. Who are you and what problem do you solve?

1:31We Have A Meeting:So my name is Dan Murray. And the problem I solve is, I suppose, I want people to feel great. I think wellness is overwhelming and confusing. And there's tons of products everywhere. And our job at Heights is to simplify it with quality. And so we sort of start internally with a question of, you know, who wants to feel well? People want to feel great. So how do we design great products versus well products? So I think if I had to argue the problem I'm solving, how do people feel great, like they can reach their heights in the simplest way?

2:08Dan Murray:So typically, what are the symptoms that a listener who's just tuned in might be experiencing that make it worthwhile staying tuned?

2:16We Have A Meeting:uh i think the most uh the most obvious symptoms would be fatigue apathy uh some general drudginess about you know the day the life they've got to get up for the work they have to do versus want to do um motivation waning you know a lot of these things are kind of uh things that we sort of assume everyone else is feeling in a very normal um and because i felt all of those things myself i think the thing that would be unbelievably surprising to people is a lot of these things are downstream from nutritional imbalances full stop um even motivation right a lot of people think that motivation is just something i don't have quite the right job or you know i just i'm not that glass half full a lot this just has to do with your dopamine like how is the dopamine in your body being received how is it um coursing through your body throughout the day do you have the right kind of spikes obviously some of these things are also due to behaviors like the first thing you do in the morning, last thing you do at night is stare at a tiny screen, bright light with all the world's information in your face and expect to have a nice calm dopamine reaction.

3:23We Have A Meeting:It's not going to quite work for you. But you know, all of these things, they impact your motivation, your ability to feel like you're happy being yourself and you're happy doing what you do. So I think these are some of the most common things and obviously just being tired. You know, the most common thing is people just feel exhausted all the time. Modern life is exhausting and people trying to keep up and actually i do think you can have your cake and eat it too like proverbially speaking obviously don't actually eat cake it's terrible before you fuck it openly and make you feel terrible but hey so so when you think about the problem that

4:00Dan Murray:you're trying to solve now i guess what what makes you the man to lead the revolution on wellness

4:06We Have A Meeting:so i think that a lot of people in our space come from medical or science backgrounds which is important and they should and I think that's a good thing um I just come from a personal experience so there is enormous benefit to the fact that I entered this space with no formal training or understanding whatsoever because as an entrepreneur my natural proclivity is to ask questions to be curious to ask why I never stopped being that kid in the back of the car asking why are we there yet like I'm just consistently asking the questions. If you are someone who is absolutely comfortable looking like the dumbest person in the room and looking like you're really clueless and have no shame over the fact that you've asked questions that seem stupid, you can go really far and uncover things that other people don't.

4:58We Have A Meeting:Because medical professionals, scientists, like any professionals in the space are by the very nature of the work they have to do, they're academic, they're really smart, they do know it all in really narrow fields, right? And so it's kind of, A, it can be quite embarrassing to ask silly questions. B, they don't ask why things are a certain way so much. They exist in enormously set up structures. And so a lot of these disciplines don't talk to each other. So, you know, I would imagine if I felt sick, going to a doctor would be really helpful. And it will be helpful if there are certain symptoms, but a doctor in the UK learns about nutrition for one hour in their seven-year training, right?

5:37We Have A Meeting:And that is still the case. So we have, fortunately, in a modern-day environment, a good understanding that nutrition and lifestyle factors make an enormous difference to our health, right? That is essentially what we consider to be wellness, right? It's the idea of taking some personal agency and saying, I want to feel well. What are the things I can do to feel well about? That might be some exercise. It might be eating healthier food, it might be eating less processed, ultra processed food, etc, etc. I mean, everything's kind of processed, but ultra processed. So that stuff all comes down to an individual's personal agency and ability to read these things.

6:19We Have A Meeting:A doctor has been trained essentially within a pharma environment of if you show these symptoms, you might have these acute illnesses and sicknesses, and therefore these are the pharmaceutical products that will cure those sicknesses and so in that world it's really important right i mean obviously doctors pharma everything is an absolute miracle but the whole entire system is set up especially in the uk but obviously globally too to help heal people who are sick but the modern day consumer isn't interested in not getting sick like fundamentally i think we've all broadly fortunately thanks to information and the democratization of information and health information and great authors and writers on this space, we all kind of understand that actually prevention is the best cure, right?

7:10We Have A Meeting:We're not, if I think about how my parents treat food, nutrition, lifestyle, et cetera, et cetera, and I was growing up to how me and all my friends do, it's night and day. Like we all understand that if we all just do a little bit of healthy stuff regularly, we're going to probably avoid most of the chronic diseases that were super common back then. So this idea of prevention being the cure is totally different to what the whole entire medical industry is designed to support, right? And so there are, of course, a lot of people who are acutely sick in the UK. Just look at the state of the NHS, right?

7:44We Have A Meeting:Of course there are. I have no interest in trying to cure those people. That's not my responsibility, not my job. I'm not a doctor. I'm not, you know, not medical. I wouldn't dare to. But as a general consumer who got sick from certain behaviors and was able to sort of go on a process of avoiding pharma and looking at what other interventions in my life will help me get better I at least have the personal relatable experience of being like if you have some personal agency and some curiosity you can hopefully go on a journey to go from feeling sick to well and then well to great and I think that is the journey that anyone would want to go on right so my journey started with chronic anxiety and like um depression but Obviously, depression is slightly more complicated.

8:30We Have A Meeting:My dad died. I got depressed. I'm not saying you can eat your way out of that. There's depression. All of these symptoms, by the way, they might be psychologically, they might be caused by a psychological challenge. They might be caused by grief. They might be caused by trauma. So it's not like there's a one size fits all thing. I think what's really interesting in the mental health space in general is if I said to anyone on the street, if I went out on Soho right here where we are, right? At Starstruck Studios. If I went out on the street and I said to someone, hey, I've got a mental health problem.

9:07We Have A Meeting:What should I do? I've got depression, let's just say. We'll go see a therapist. We'll be, I think, probably 99 % of people's answer, right? Which means that broadly we understand that there is a psychological aspect to mental health problems. So nationally and broadly, we know that if you have something wrong with your brain, you might have a psychological issue, go to the doctor, they'll recommend a therapist, etc. No one on the street is going to go and say, see a nutritionist or dietitian, right? No one. However, an enormous, enormous body of data would suggest that that is as valuable a way to start as going to see a therapist.

9:46We Have A Meeting:So on my journey, when I had insomnia, I went through this exact situation. I went to the doctor. Doctor's like, you got insomnia. Fine. Take some sleeping pills. And I cool. I get it. They will work. But I'd also had depression in the past and been on SSRI. So antidepressants and they're quite hard to come off. And when I'd come off, I was like desperate to not really go on them again because they create other problems anyway. Mostly around weight. Right. So, you know, GLP once didn't exist then. So, you know, at that point, you're taking a cocktail and you're like, I mean, this is all getting a bit a bit much anyway.

10:20We Have A Meeting:so I always just kind of wanted to find the right solution that is long term so knowing that you go to a doctor and they give you sleeping pills is one solution but I want to find out why am I not sleeping suddenly I'm having panic attacks all the time and really chronic anxiety and actually like I'm happy like I was getting married I was living with my partner my work was good like all this stuff it's like so you know there isn't like I was my dad had died a long time before I dealt with a depression come through it. It wasn't trauma. You know, so I'm like, sure you can relate to this as the classic archetype man thing, but it's like, I'm solving all my problems.

10:58We Have A Meeting:These aren't the things. Like there isn't actually like an emotionally, when I was depressed, I knew it was an emotional reaction to my dad dying, right? So I was like, rationally someone says to me, you're depressed, take some antidepressants. You think you're never going to feel different. You probably will in some time. And I'm like, okay, I get that. Like I'm, you know, if I wasn't depressed without my dad dying, maybe I'd be more worried. right so i understood that this was a emotional reaction to a traumatic event about losing someone i loved when you're happy and everything's going well and you have chronic anxiety panic attacks and you're not sleeping for six months you can't answer that stuff away so i went and did all the things i was told psychologists psychiatrists sleep therapists meditation you name all the things whiskey weed anything that would fucking knock me out um but you know none of it worked so in the end after all that process someone basically said to me go see a dietician because it sounds like a brain health problem and i was like i don't even know what that means but okay and the dietician because i was able to say to her this is the stuff i've done the last six months i'm still not sleeping quite easy for her to go well it's probably biological and so what she said is listen, your mind is, you know, essentially related to your psychology and you have tried everything here to solve your problem from your mind.

12:20We Have A Meeting:But your brain is an organ in your body. It's a biological substance. And if you are having these kind of reactions, which is essentially not sleeping, it is a warning signal from your brain. It's basically saying your house is on fire. There's a problem. I'm not going to let you sleep until you solve it. And she did some really good analogies for me because obviously i didn't know anything about this space right it's just like um if you imagine your brain is made of different building blocks really the main things are dha omega-3 60 of your brain is fat 90 of that fat is one compound which is dha so it is the number one building block of your brain and she was like essentially what's happening is if you imagine it's a it's a house and you've got bricks it's you know taking bricks out brick by brick sort of like jango the whole thing is still there it's structured and stuff but it's wobbly at this point and you know every time one's coming out it's another alarm signal alarm signal until you're basically able to put these things back in and she's like each of these are essentially your key nutrients so as long as you put some of that stuff back in she was like i would be very confident that this is going to solve your problem so she's like i think you need to take omega-3 supplements b vitamin complex and um basically blueberry extract so she explained this to me she's like omega-3 is because the reason i said b vitamins because they regulate your energy so you're not sleeping all night and then you're like wide awake the problem with insomnia by the way is you are exhausted through the day just as you're about to go to sleep you get mega bursts of energy and obviously anxiety that you can't sleep because of the last night but big bursts of energy so no point you're trying to lie in bed because then that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of frustration so get up and work be quite productive all night by the time it's time to go to work or a zombie through the day so really tricky so the b vitamins to regulate the energy supply and then antioxidants because they clean out my lymphatic system of my brain which she basically said is like giving your brain a car wash overnight i was like cool and then the sort of eureka moment that led me into heights is she said i was like okay well then i'll just i'll go to you know holland and barrett and i'll just buy that stuff right she's like you can't go there so why not she's like you've got to go to whole foods or planet organic and i was like i run a startup i do not shop in planet organic um which is like basically you have to go somewhere where they sell high quality products if you go to high street you won't get the supplements that you need because there is a big difference between the highest quality products which put the scientific dose in and the lowest quality that make marketing claims and she's like the problem is the best product in the world can make the same claims as the worst product in the world so you kind of need to know how to read a supplement label which you don't so i'm going to just save you time and say if you just go to Whole Foods or Planet Organic they only stock high quality stuff you go to Holland and Barrow it's just like you know how high quality do you think something that costs a penny is you know in their penny sale I was like this is a very good point fair enough so she that thing was you know didn't we register at the time because I wasn't thinking about building a business but it was just so interesting to me that she knew that I had to go to a certain place I went there Planet Organic in Camden town and I spent 120 pounds on these three supplements three and I was like that is insane.

15:25We Have A Meeting:I had no idea that supplements could cost that much. And within a few days, sleeping for the first time in ages. So it was really quick response. And obviously, I went back to her, I was like, I can't believe this is the case. And became so fascinated by it all because to me, this is like a comms challenge, right? Soon as she said it to me, it made sense. it isn't widely understood or marketed there is no reason for me as a consumer to go to Planet Organic and not think I'm getting ripped off by paying£40 for something that I'd go into Holland and Barrett and buy for£5 because they say they do the same thing so the whole time this was going on and I was like I can't believe that worked and that she knew all these things so confidently and the things that really struck me were at the point where I was sick and I just wanted to feel well I really could have had the doctor say hey take these sleeping pills and also go see that psychiatrist and also maybe go see a dietician right maybe it's something wrong with your brain or maybe you've got a nutritional imbalance right and it wouldn't have been any difference for him and it wouldn't have made any difference to me other than obviously I wouldn't have had the insight of which part worked but there is no reason why you can't start all those things at the same time and I think going through that journey and realizing that no one in my journey other than a random friend at dinner had the insight to say it could be your nutrition because your brain's an organ and you are an organic matter person.

17:01We Have A Meeting:So therefore, it seems so obvious to my friend. It was crazy to me that no one in the medical fields, none of them, thought about it. And that is my very long winded way of saying, as an example of being someone who at the first place has a problem and needs to cure it, right? So he's going on a search to do it. But then after the fact, being an outsider to the industry and asking why things are done a certain way is really unusual because almost everyone that enters this space has a very, very strong predisposed idea of what the answer is. And it's very much is very similar to a scientific method in general.

17:37We Have A Meeting:Right. You kind of understand the thesis of what you're trying to build towards and the logical conclusion of how you build towards it. And it all makes a lot of sense. But being someone who has no idea means you end up just asking why endlessly until you create a very different product to everyone else.

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18:32Dan Murray:So you've solved it for yourself and then you've got to a point where, and you know what it's like with entrepreneurship, like, oh, you can have 10 ideas every single day, but you've decided that this is the mission that you want to go down to solve. Not coming from a science background, where do you start? Because it looks like it's probably like a landmine. Where do you go first?

18:55We Have A Meeting:I had a very, very good idea. I think this is still the best idea I ever had at Heights. And it came from having imposter syndrome. So in my last business, which was a mobile tech startup, up we'd done really really well and uh scaled really fast and we'd won loads of awards and all of this cool stuff happened and i had really bad imposter syndrome in a whole bunch of rooms i went to you know they're they were impressive rooms like buckingham palace and meeting the queen and stuff so you would but i was around so many people that i really respected and i didn't feel like i fit in right i thought it was super uncomfortable um because it's the first time it's all happening to me so i just felt really insecure about it and everything else so because i'd already had bad imposter syndrome which really made me feel deeply insecure and not motivated to work and all of these other like things that downstream from that i knew that this space would be a hundred times worse right like you know there's no reason no one ever says to like a bloke you know what are you doing being a tech entrepreneur no one gives a fuck like you do you do you but i go into the medical or health or science space, then yeah, it's a fucking reasonable question.

20:08We Have A Meeting:And actually, it's probably one of the first questions I would ask other people, right? So I was like, I am not going to do well in this space, like dealing with that kind of imposter syndrome. So I set myself a challenge, which was, I'm going to read PubMed, which is public medical records, basically. PubMed is a website. It publishes all the scientific research in the world. I'm going to go and read every single Wednesday for the whole day articles in PubMed and only PubMed. And the reason why that's important is it's not subject to interpretation. This is just science. Because I don't know anything really about the science, right?

20:45We Have A Meeting:On just the brain and gut, because gut health is so related to brain health, etc. Right? So I was like, I'm just going to read about the brain and gut every single week. And I'm going to, there's a saying in neuroscience, which is if you learn some, if you read something, you learn it once. And if you share it, you learn it twice because you cement new neural pathways in your brain basically so i was like okay i'm going to create my own process because i don't know what i'm going to make as a company and i don't really know what i want to do i'm going to research every single week in pubmed and then i'm going to rewrite what i found into a newsletter in some kind of millennial speak that i think is something that i would read and i did that process for a year before we ever launched anything and the reason why this was so good and i still do it but the reason why it's so good is i always said to myself, listen, in 10 years, I'm still not going to be a neuroscientist.

21:32We Have A Meeting:However, the brain, as they say, is plastic. And what that means with neuroplasticity is your brain will literally change. Like there's an old concept, which is the Freudian concept, which is you're stuck with the brain you're born with, right? Which is devastating if you've got mental health problems like me, right? That is like not good, not positive information. Much more positive is the idea positive psychology, which is backed by basically FMRI neuroscience scans of the brain, which shows that actually you can change your brain. You can make an active decision to be a different person. And as long as you build the habits and behaviors about being that different person in five years, you will literally be a different person.

22:09We Have A Meeting:And you did a brain scan, your brain will look completely different to the person you were. Case in point, I had severe mental health problems in my 20s, and I haven't had any of any kind for, I'd say at least five years. Like I can remember my last panic attack, which was the last time I'd say I had a mental health problem. But I would never have believed that that was me. I'm not saying I'll never have one in the future. I'm just saying that that seemed like a revelation. I used to have one every day, right? So for me, not to have one for years is a demonstration of you can deliberately try to change your brain with the behaviors and inputs in your life and you can create different outputs.

22:43We Have A Meeting:so the logic was if I do this read this science every single week and rewrite it I will be learning science from the source so what I wasn't going to do is go follow you know influencers and stuff on social media where I'm not sure if it's true or not and actually it will just confuse me I'm going to just fill my brain up with factual science and then in 10 years I'll still never be a neuroscientist, nutritionist or dietitian or anything like that, I will literally have very accurate information stored in my head about how the brain works and how these things all work. And I'm not planning to do any academic tests or be any practicing person, but I can really hold my own nowadays with any of these guys because I read the same stuff they do and I learn the same stuff they do.

23:31We Have A Meeting:And it's only once a week and that's all it took. So this process helped me gut over imposter syndrome because whenever anyone challenges me I'm like do you know what you're completely right but I have written over 400 newsletters about the brain at this point right that's a lot like I've written over 400 times just about the science of the brain and gut so there's an aspect where people are like okay that's like yeah that's good and you know I'll continue doing it right so in whenever it's the thousandth time I will have even less imposter syndrome so i think some of this stuff is really important to understand what your own insecurities are and also you know even if you don't have insecurities like my business partner joel of a hilarious thing where i'm like i have really bad imposter syndrome and he has really bad imposer syndrome where he just thinks he's good at everything um so you know he'll look at me like that it's amazing but he yeah he actually made that up i'd never heard it before and i was like That's so true.

24:31We Have A Meeting:It's unbelievable. But, you know, it is important to understand yourself. Right. But then it's also important to understand how other people are going to perceive you in a space that you're going to go into. And in this space is very easy and accurate to be seen as a charlatan. It is. So I can't change the perception or reality that I'm not a medical person, but I can totally change the perception. that I don't know what I'm talking about because I've done the reading and actually all I've ever done is re-communicate the science with no random opinions around it. It's a very structured process every single week.

25:09We Have A Meeting:So I think that framing for me really helped me feel comfortable when people challenged me about that. And then of course, the next part of your question is actually you start to attract like a magnet interesting people, right? I'm writing about science in an interesting way. I attracted our chief science officer, Dr. Tara Swart, by tweeting her. I was reading one of her research papers on neuropharmacology, and I tweeted her. I actually met her last week, and she laughed about this, reminded me. She was like, you know, basically tweeted me, and then we went for coffee in Soho. And I was like, yeah, that's quite brave of you, actually.

25:41We Have A Meeting:She was like, yeah, I don't really think, actually, it's quite a weird thing to do, isn't it? I'm like, yeah. But she came on board as our chief science officer. We had this gut health dietician who works at King's that I was tweeting as well. you know, you're trying your luck, obviously with all this stuff, but you're referencing their work. They're going and sometimes clicking the link and actually reading the thing. I mean, like, oh, that was quite good communication of my research and stuff. And I got lucky with the ones that were in London and I went and met them. And then they, you know, before I know it, working with them and we're always really clear, listen, we're entrepreneurs.

26:11We Have A Meeting:Our job is to like put stuff together, but like, we're not going to do our own formulations. Like we're not going to guess what this should be. Your names as scientific professionals are the ones that are going on them and so i think that was also really important right saying to them you guys design the best products that you could ever imagine in your space knowing it's your reputation and we as the entrepreneurs will get out of your way and we'll try and raise the money to fund the product development or whatever the thing is but like it's your reputation and i think that dynamic really helped and the imposter syndrome thing again like i wouldn't want my name going against the formulation of something i'm not in that space that's fascinating so there's there's the year of

26:50Dan Murray:research effectively but it's kind of self-teaching then there's bringing in the experts and then when's the when and how does the launch happen from there yeah i mean launch obviously got delayed

27:01We Have A Meeting:delayed delayed delayed because physical products supply chains etc um it was probably 15 or so months from starting at all to getting a first product out there um and we got quite lucky so uh we actually you know started in soho um so we did a pre-launch thing which turned out to be a very good idea we got 100 bottles like in pre-launch and we sent them out to we wanted like basically the idea was we'll get 100 people who we respect and think are really cool um and we will supply them with two months they'd have to put their email address in etc basically they would run out just before we went live so we're going live in january um so january the 5th 20 january 6th 2020 we went live so we had this whole plan of you know these two months will run out and then their subscription can start and the people who have been taking it and feeling an impact and liking it and all the rest of it will subscribe and the ones who won't won't and that's just how the cookie will crumble and so you know at best we were like you know great would look like 50 because it's something it's new for starters the same people are putting in their bodies every day building a habit is hard all of these things is like a lot to imagine that anyone's going to do but after the 100 people we had 80 sign up in january which was amazing but the most amazing part was one of those people so one of those people was uh a guy that i've become friendly with called uh damian bradfield who's the founder of we transfer and he was like love these they're great do you want me to do an intro or see if Stephen Fry will be interested because you know I think he'd really like them and I was like yes he's like on the list of like the best people ever yes please um and so he's like okay cool well here's his address to send it to him there's someplace in London so I was like okay cool no problem obviously from that point on it's a black box you don't know if he's opened the post if it's gone to the right address like you literally know nothing whatsoever and even if you do something you know obviously now we work with so many celebrities even if you do something like ask someone you know the lie or whatever i mean you just don't know it's not clothes right so like supplements are really weird you genuinely will never have real truth other than trusting the person and they'll just be honest about what they are or not so with him had no idea and then january the 5th which was the day before we were launching i was with my mum and i got this email from stephen fry and i was like okay that's it um and basically the email said something along the lines of um you know dan i got your email from damien uh i thought that these magic little beans um had worked absolute wonders for me i've never felt so bright and perky and sharp and like all these lovely things however i just went on the website to buy them and i've not been able to so maybe they haven't really worked at all can you help um and i was like oh this is amazing um we don't launch till tomorrow if you like you can be our first customer first paying customer but can we use everything you just said in like a testimonial quote etc and use it forever whatever is absolutely no problem so gave him this code he became our first customer he's still a customer so if you go on shopify and organize by basically ltv so by lifetime value of any customer stephen fry's number one by quite a while he's got every one of our products and every time we launch something new he's always wants to be like the first which is an interesting other thing about him i didn't know so much about because i you know this is all random happenstance right but he's actually a very uh um he's a real early adopter so like actually apparently he was always like this with tech and like all this other stuff which i didn't really know much about but he's really enjoys his status as number one so he's always like whenever you bring out something else like me first we're like yeah i mean with pleasure yeah so we got really lucky but then there's that whole seneca quote of you know luck is opportunity meets preparedness and obviously we were prepared there was an opportunity there's this amazing luck um and i have to say that i think over time you know as we as a company we've always been really invested in science but science takes a lot of money and time so we've done two proper trials on like our first product vitals at this point and we're currently halfway through a randomized control trial randomized clinical trial which would make us the only company in the uk basically to have that on a multivitamin um so that is like a farmer level investment and to do that you need ethics approvals we're working in partnership with universities you have to do the other trials first this stuff has taken basically the best part of five years to get to that level because you can't do it otherwise you need like a lot of evidence behind you to even get to that stage um all of this i don't think any of it works in converting people as much as just being like oh stephen fry does all right cool then whatever so i think we've learned some interesting stuff we've always been like so steadfast on build the most scientifically credible products in the uk and then europe and if you do that you'll have the moat that will make you the best company in this space full stop however the thing that took us longer to learn than I realized would is actually the social component of trust is so interesting like we really tried when we launched for two years to go on the hard science credible route of marketing people don't want science rammed down their throats it turns out it's just not something that they're particularly into but when they saw that people who were like influencers or celebrities or whatever were backing this product and talking about it and everything they're like all right i guess i'll give it a go so it's been a really interesting that side of it's been a really interesting like social dynamic learning curve for us as a company because when we started we were like no celebrities and then obviously immediately you're like all right we'll just even try and then before you know it you're fucking loads of celebrities it's the thing that really works and you're doing it in conjunction with science trials and always trying to get the

33:07Dan Murray:right tone quite right which is tricky i think so i'm a heights user okay great user excellent

33:13We Have A Meeting:you inject it in